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Message no. 1
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:48:05 +1100
Hi All,

What are peoples thoughts on using mundane items whitest you are
astrally perceiving ( NOT projecting just perceiving ). Say for example
you can't see a target cause its smoky. You switch to astral vision,
thus no smoke. Can you still fire your gun ?
Could you use a guns scope ?

What about other things ? Throw a knife ? Open a door ? Drink a glass
of water ? You get the idea.

Alvorn

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"I like the way this project has somehow, against all common sense, got
itself made."
- Peter Jackson, "The Lord of The Rings"
Message no. 2
From: grendel@*****.org (Grendel)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:45:31 -0800
On Jan 18, 2005, at 7:48 PM, Owen McKerrow wrote:
>
> What are peoples thoughts on using mundane items whitest you are
> astrally perceiving ( NOT projecting just perceiving ). Say for
> example you can't see a target cause its smoky. You switch to astral
> vision, thus no smoke. Can you still fire your gun ?
> Could you use a guns scope ?
>
> What about other things ? Throw a knife ? Open a door ? Drink a glass
> of water ? You get the idea.
>

Things that block vision on the physical plane block vision on the
astral plane, smoke is equally opaque on both planes.

Astral vision imposes a +2 modifier on mundane tasks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
The essence of life is struggle, and its goal is domination. There may
be deeper meanings and higher aspirations, but they exist solely within
the mind of man. The meaning of life is war.

---The Way and The Power
Lovret
Message no. 3
From: creditline@**************.org (Creditline)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:03:27 -0600
Grendel wrote:
> Things that block vision on the physical plane block vision on the
> astral plane, smoke is equally opaque on both planes.

Odd, I thought only objects with an astral signature (i.e. things
alive) could hinder vision on the astral. Is it stated in the
rules somewhere that smoke is actually opaque, or is that a house
rule?

Creditline


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Message no. 4
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:07:49 +1100
Hmmm I've always been a bit unclear about this one myself. Cause if
only alive things block vision then you could look through walls and
doors, but you can't ( at least Im pretty certain you can't ), but
smoke ?

Does anyone know the best place ( i.e. page number in Magic in the
Shadows ) for looking up this sort of stuff ? Its always implied or
mentioned but I can't ever remember reading somewhere a definitive,
what things look like on the astral plane and how you interact with
them.

On 19/01/2005, at 4:03 PM, Creditline wrote:

> Grendel wrote:
>> Things that block vision on the physical plane block vision on the
>> astral plane, smoke is equally opaque on both planes.
>
> Odd, I thought only objects with an astral signature (i.e. things
> alive) could hinder vision on the astral. Is it stated in the rules
> somewhere that smoke is actually opaque, or is that a house rule?
>
> Creditline
>
>
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>
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"I like the way this project has somehow, against all common sense, got
itself made."
- Peter Jackson, "The Lord of The Rings"
Message no. 5
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:55:20 +0100
According to Owen McKerrow, on Wednesday 19 January 2005 04:48 the word on
the street was...

> What are peoples thoughts on using mundane items whitest you are
> astrally perceiving ( NOT projecting just perceiving ).

Sure, why not? You'll suffer a +2 TN modifier for doing things that are
entirely physical while you are astrally perceiving, but that's it.

> Could you use a guns scope ?

IMHO, no, because you're not using your eyes. You might as well ask if you
can use a scope when you have your eyes closed :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
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Message no. 6
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:57:00 +0100
According to Creditline, on Wednesday 19 January 2005 06:03 the word on the
street was...

> Odd, I thought only objects with an astral signature (i.e. things
> alive) could hinder vision on the astral. Is it stated in the
> rules somewhere that smoke is actually opaque, or is that a house
> rule?

Grendel is right: anything that blocks vision on the physical plane, will
also do so on the astral plane. Living things hinder astral movement, not
astral "vision". You can assense through a window but not through a wall,
for example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:39:45 +0000
On Jan 19, 2005, at 03:48, Owen McKerrow wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> What are peoples thoughts on using mundane items whitest you are
> astrally perceiving ( NOT projecting just perceiving ). Say for
> example you can't see a target cause its smoky. You switch to astral
> vision, thus no smoke. Can you still fire your gun ?
> Could you use a guns scope ?

When astrally perceiving, you are still in full control of your body,
but mundane (physical) tasks get a +2 modifier. Astral sight makes an
excellent poor man's low-light vision (which you can't, however, use to
see through smoke).

> What about other things ? Throw a knife ? Open a door ? Drink a glass
> of water ? You get the idea.

Yes to all of the above. The scope is open to debate, though.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 8
From: mrnexx@*********.net (Mr. Nexx)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:39:24 -0600
Owen McKerrow wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> What are peoples thoughts on using mundane items whitest you are
> astrally perceiving ( NOT projecting just perceiving ). Say for example
> you can't see a target cause its smoky. You switch to astral vision,
> thus no smoke. Can you still fire your gun ?
> Could you use a guns scope ?
>
> What about other things ? Throw a knife ? Open a door ? Drink a glass of
> water ? You get the idea.

There is a standard +2 to target numbers of purely physical things done
while astrally perceiving (such as shooting a gun, or throwing a knife).
I'm not so sure about a scope; an electronic one, certainly not, but
an optical one I might let someone get away with.
--
***
Nexx
aka Skaldmark
aka Mark Hall
***
http://www.editors-wastebasket.org/nexx/
***
"We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all
time have gone before us."
-Joseph Campbell
Message no. 9
From: lrdslvrhnd@*****.com (Kevin McB)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:38:17 -0500
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:39:45 +0000, Max Noel <maxnoel_fr@*****.fr> wrote:
>
> On Jan 19, 2005, at 03:48, Owen McKerrow wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > What are peoples thoughts on using mundane items whitest you are
> > astrally perceiving ( NOT projecting just perceiving ). Say for
> > example you can't see a target cause its smoky. You switch to astral
> > vision, thus no smoke. Can you still fire your gun ?
> > Could you use a guns scope ?
>
> When astrally perceiving, you are still in full control of your body,
> but mundane (physical) tasks get a +2 modifier. Astral sight makes an
> excellent poor man's low-light vision (which you can't, however, use to
> see through smoke).

Actually, per MitS (p. 82), it *does* rather significantly lower the
TN for shooting (and theoretically seeing) through smoke, assuming you
don't already have thermographic or natural lowlight... +1 for light
smoke/fog or +2 for heavy (vs. +4/+6 for normal vision and cybernetic
lowlight, and +2/+4 for natural lowlight... natural thermo is 0/0, and
even cybernetic is only 0/+1, so a dwarf mage would be rather stupid
to attempt this 8-} ) Even with the +2 modifier for astral, it's
still only +3/+4. But then you get possible biomass & background
count modifiers, so you're back to a case-by-case basis 8-}

I, personally, wouldn't allow modifiers for scopes, smartguns, laser
sights, etc. to be in effect; since you're not using your eyes, you
can't see the targeting reticules or dot for the latter two, and IMHO
gunscopes (and optical binoculars) wouldn't work - glass lenses
refract optical light, not the light of "the glowing auras of living
things". I also wouldnt' allow somebody wearing goggles of any kind
to perceive astrally... darned pesky electronics blocking out your
vision 8-}

"You see Joe Badguy across the stadium, but the band's got the smoke
machine going so you can't really get a clear shot. TN +4" "OK, I
switch to Astral." "Well, it's a busy club, with lots of biomass, and
they've been going at it all night... so +1 for the smoke, and +2 for
the people, and another +2 background count... It's now even harder to
see him, and you can't even use your laser scope, though with the
lightshow that would've been interesting in any case. Heck, forget
about the people, you're both high enough over the mosh pit it doesn't
matter. But there's going to be another +2 'cause you're using a gun
while astrally perceiving, almost forgot that one..." "Um... I switch
back to normal!" "Gee, too bad, while you were flicking your vision
back and forth, Joe ducked out of sight... shoulda taken the shot
while you had a chance!" 8-}

Kevin
Message no. 10
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:50:31 -0800 (PST)
> There is a standard +2 to target numbers of purely physical things
> done
> while astrally perceiving (such as shooting a gun, or throwing a
> knife).
> I'm not so sure about a scope; an electronic one, certainly
> not, but
> an optical one I might let someone get away with.

I wouldn't. Mirrors don't work in astral space. Neither do scopes.
Both rely on the properties of light, which does not exist in astral
space. Case in point, blind people can astrally assense. It just so
happens that the visual cortex in the most developed sensory
translater in most people, so sight is the sense most analagous to
their astral perception. I dare say someone blind from birth would
process their astral senses with their olfactory or tactile cortex.
Your eyes never get involved in astral perception, not really. You
bypass the sensory receptor and go straight to the cortex with data
to translate. Since the route the data travels does not pass through
the eye, the scope is useless. It is transparent in the physical
world, so it won't block the user's senses in the astral. A mirror
would.

This has always been one of the weaknesses in FASA's metaphysics.
Line of sight for magic, unimpeded by windows, reflected by
mirrors... it all suggests that somehow light comes into play. A lot
of GMs seem to think that a mirrored surface is mirrored in astral
space. It isn't. A window is not actually transparent in astral
space. It simply isn't there. Opaque things are completely
intangible but provide a full barrier to astral sensing. Translucent
things act the same, partially blocking astral seneses. Not perhaps
the most the consistant set of rules. It is almost like light is
both present and not present in astral space, a bit confusing and
contradictory.

In any case, I rule that whatever cortex is processing your astral
sense is largely unable to process physical input. The other senses
function normally, but slightly dulled. Hence, a physical task
suffers the +2 TN. Dual natured creatures can actually use both
astral and physical senses simultaneously, without difficulty, a
byproduct of doing it their whole life. I have, in the past, allowed
people an Edge to reflect training at processing physical and astral
input at the same time. it costs 2 points per point of modifier it
offsets. So at 2 points it reduces the TN penalty for physical
actions while assensing to +1; and at 4 points the TN is completely
offset. They have basically learned to assense as well as a dual
natured being.

I also rule that no form of physical sensory enhancement is at all
helpful to astral sensing. No scopes, no mirrors, no
olfactory/audio/etc boosters... they simply don't interact with the
astral in any way. A windows or scope is transparent in the astral,
a mirror is opaque. No other properties carry over.

On an unrelated note, has anyone noticed that watchers can manifest
as ANYTHING audio/visual that the summoner desires? I once had a
player research a formula for conjuring a watcher spirit that
manifests as a mirror (size limited to 1 square foot per point of
Force). He would visualize the orientation he wanted, and the
watcher would zip there and manifest. Voila! Instant reflector.
Made him nasty as can be in a fight, because he never had to break
cover to cast his combat spells. Has anyone else had a player try
this?

======Korishinzo
--so, new spell, Astral Magnifying Glass anyone? :)



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Message no. 11
From: allura@***********.org (Joanna Hurley)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:39:42 -0500
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Ice Heart

> On an unrelated note, has anyone noticed that watchers can
> manifest as ANYTHING audio/visual that the summoner desires?
> I once had a player research a formula for conjuring a
> watcher spirit that manifests as a mirror (size limited to 1
> square foot per point of Force). He would visualize the
> orientation he wanted, and the watcher would zip there and
> manifest. Voila! Instant reflector.
> Made him nasty as can be in a fight, because he never had to
> break cover to cast his combat spells. Has anyone else had a
> player try this?
>
> ======> Korishinzo
> --so, new spell, Astral Magnifying Glass anyone? :)


Umm....MitS, p101 "Watchers exist solely on the astral plane....and can even
manifest, becoming visible and audible to living beings in the physical
world. Like apparitions, however they cannot touch material things or
affect the physical plane directly."

So it manifests as a mirror, but can it reflect light?

Joanna
-who likes this trick, if it works...
Message no. 12
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:43:11 -0700
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:39:42 -0500, Joanna Hurley
<allura@***********.org> wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> > [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Ice Heart
>
> > On an unrelated note, has anyone noticed that watchers can
> > manifest as ANYTHING audio/visual that the summoner desires?
> > I once had a player research a formula for conjuring a
> > watcher spirit that manifests as a mirror (size limited to 1
> > square foot per point of Force). He would visualize the
> > orientation he wanted, and the watcher would zip there and
> > manifest. Voila! Instant reflector.
> > Made him nasty as can be in a fight, because he never had to
> > break cover to cast his combat spells. Has anyone else had a
> > player try this?
> >
> > ======> > Korishinzo
> > --so, new spell, Astral Magnifying Glass anyone? :)
>
>
> Umm....MitS, p101 "Watchers exist solely on the astral plane....and can even
> manifest, becoming visible and audible to living beings in the physical
> world. Like apparitions, however they cannot touch material things or
> affect the physical plane directly."
>
> So it manifests as a mirror, but can it reflect light?

Based on what Joanna quoted, I would say no.

--
-Graht
Message no. 13
From: silvercat@***********.org (Ian Argent)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:11:35 -0500
The biggest problem with ruling that optical stuff doesn't refract or
reflect is that per the rules, they do! Otherwise, the optical fiber
security systems that allow perception and spellcasting simply wouldn't
work. For that matter, spellcasting via a mirror would have serious
problems.

So we have a canon example of optics affecting and affordinf astral
perception.
Message no. 14
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:58:02 -0800 (PST)
--- Ian Argent <silvercat@***********.org> wrote:

> The biggest problem with ruling that optical stuff doesn't refract
> or
> reflect is that per the rules, they do! Otherwise, the optical
> fiber
> security systems that allow perception and spellcasting simply
> wouldn't
> work. For that matter, spellcasting via a mirror would have serious
> problems.
>
> So we have a canon example of optics affecting and affordinf astral
> perception.

Ahhh, now see, I make a critical distinction between Astral
Perception and LOS for spellcasting. Mages CANNOT assense through a
fiber network in my games. They have phyical LOS, yes, thanks to the
wonderful optical properties of fiber. They do NOT have unimpeded
astral senses. As soon as they switch to astral perception, they are
probably blinded by the bulky helmet they are wearing. If the canon
rules allow a mage to assense through a fiber network, then the game
creators have committed a fatal blunder. We end up with rules in
direct contradiction to each other. Optical zoom goggles and scopes
effect the astral. Optical cameras become the next hideous poiunt of
contention. What the does the film get exposed to if the mage using
the camera is assensing?

No, it is far far easier to say that, no, fiber networks do not
permit the trasmission of a sense that is (BTB, no less) "psychic" in
nature. Period. Physical LOS is achieved, and spells may be cast.
This is true of scopes, binoculars, optical zoom cyber, etc. as well.
They all extend physical range of sight, and hence LOS. But the
moment the mage switches their perception to the astral, they are
"seeing" with their psychic sixth sense. At best, the optical
apparatus is transparent to this process; and at worst, it actually
impedes this process. In no way does it assist.

That is my ruling, in any case. Your games are, of course, rather
immune to my rulings. :)

======Korishinzo
--not the GM for RL, unfortunately



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Message no. 15
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 18:08:37 +0000
On Jan 24, 2005, at 17:58, Ice Heart wrote:

> Optical cameras become the next hideous poiunt of
> contention. What the does the film get exposed to if the mage using
> the camera is assensing?

Given that the camera itself is a mundane item and thus not capable of
assensing, I would say "light". :)

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 16
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:54:16 -0800 (PST)
> > Optical cameras become the next hideous poiunt of
> > contention. What the does the film get exposed to if the mage
> > using the camera is assensing?

> Given that the camera itself is a mundane item and thus not
> capable of assensing, I would say "light". :)

Ahhh, indeed... *points to suggestion that a mage could assense
though a fiber optic cable* ...see any problem? There is no light in
astral space. An astral image cannot therefore be sensed through a
medium that carries light. :)

======Korishinzo
--I wonder if a master's thesis deriving a single unified theory for
SR metaphysics could garner any funding... :p



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Message no. 17
From: lrdslvrhnd@*****.com (Kevin McB)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:19:46 -0500
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:54:16 -0800 (PST), Ice Heart
<korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> > > Optical cameras become the next hideous poiunt of
> > > contention. What the does the film get exposed to if the mage
> > > using the camera is assensing?
>
> > Given that the camera itself is a mundane item and thus not
> > capable of assensing, I would say "light". :)
>
> Ahhh, indeed... *points to suggestion that a mage could assense
> though a fiber optic cable* ...see any problem? There is no light in
> astral space. An astral image cannot therefore be sensed through a
> medium that carries light. :)

I don't recall ever reading that a mage could assense through a
fiberoptic cable. Spellcast, yes; assense, no. Even as a player, I'd
argue against that with the GM, 'cause it just doesn't make sense LOL

*idly wonders when they're going to come up with "fiber-astral cables"*
>
> ======> Korishinzo
> --I wonder if a master's thesis deriving a single unified theory for
> SR metaphysics could garner any funding... :p

I dunno about that, but I'd be willing to bet you could find a college
where you could major in it for your undergrad degree LOL

Kevin
Message no. 18
From: silvercat@***********.org (Ian Argent)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:16:50 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: "Ice Heart" <korishinzo@*****.com>
Sent: 1/24/05 3:55:03 PM
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Subject: Re: Using Mudane Items while Percving

> > Optical cameras become the next hideous poiunt of
> > contention. What the does the film get exposed to if the mage
> > using the camera is assensing?

> Given that the camera itself is a mundane item and thus not
> capable of assensing, I would say "light". :)

Ahhh, indeed... *points to suggestion that a mage could assense
though a fiber optic cable* ...see any problem? There is no light
in
astral space. An astral image cannot therefore be sensed through a
medium that carries light. :)

====== Korishinzo
--I wonder if a master's thesis deriving a single unified theory for
SR metaphysics could garner any funding... :p



-----Reply Message-----
Counter argument: the "nature" of optics translates to astral space.
This nicely explains why windows etc. are transparent on the astral
plane. It is their "nature" to be transparent. It is the "nature" of a
prism to refract light, that of lenses to magnify, etc. And while astral
perception might not use the eyes, it's not too much to assume that a
sighted mage would localize his astral perception at his eyes.
Basically, I find it avoids problems if I treat all optical items as
working in a substantially similar fashion both mundanely and astrally

Ian Argent
Message no. 19
From: allura@***********.org (Joanna Hurley)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:36:29 -0500
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Kevin McB

> I don't recall ever reading that a mage could assense through
> a fiberoptic cable. Spellcast, yes; assense, no. Even as a
> player, I'd argue against that with the GM, 'cause it just
> doesn't make sense LOL

I dug around a bit, and finally found it in the Corporate Security Handbook
(p38, p102-103). However, this is a 2ed book, and I'm not sure if this was
ever written up for 3rd ed. The interesting thing is that it says it uses
prisms to direct the light, and "no electronic system that enhances,
strengthens or rebroadcasts the signal." This give it a limit of 2500
meters of cable before the mage can't use it. Also, the mage gets a +1TN
for every 500meters for the spellcasting test, +2 for drain for every 500
meters, and the fiber optics can't be used to conjure a spirit. Doesn't say
anything about assensing, though.

Joanna
Message no. 20
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:46:01 +1100
On 25/01/2005, at 11:36 AM, Joanna Hurley wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
>> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Kevin McB
>
>> I don't recall ever reading that a mage could assense through
>> a fiberoptic cable. Spellcast, yes; assense, no. Even as a
>> player, I'd argue against that with the GM, 'cause it just
>> doesn't make sense LOL
>
> I dug around a bit, and finally found it in the Corporate Security
> Handbook
> (p38, p102-103). However, this is a 2ed book, and I'm not sure if
> this was
> ever written up for 3rd ed. The interesting thing is that it says it
> uses
> prisms to direct the light, and "no electronic system that enhances,
> strengthens or rebroadcasts the signal." This give it a limit of 2500
> meters of cable before the mage can't use it. Also, the mage gets a
> +1TN
> for every 500meters for the spellcasting test, +2 for drain for every
> 500
> meters, and the fiber optics can't be used to conjure a spirit.
> Doesn't say
> anything about assensing, though.
>
> Joanna

Going back away's in the discussion, I found this little tid bit on the
Shadowrun sites offical FAQ.

http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/faq.shtml#4

Is glass/clear plastic see-through when astrally perceiving?

The basic rule of thumb is this: if you can see through it in the
physical world, then you can see through it on the astral plane. If you
can't see through it physically, then you can't see through it
astrally, either. The only real exceptions are astral barriers (and
other astral things), which are at least partially opaque on the
astral, but physically invisible.



Owen McKerrow
WebMaster, emlab
http://emlab.uow.edu.au

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - -

People who prefer typing to pointing then seem to prefer acronyms to
save typing :-)
-Denis Stanton, On people using Command Line Interfaces
Message no. 21
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:17:49 +0100
According to Ian Argent, on Tuesday 25 January 2005 01:16 the word on the
street was...

> Counter argument: the "nature" of optics translates to astral space.
> This nicely explains why windows etc. are transparent on the astral
> plane. It is their "nature" to be transparent. It is the "nature"
of a
> prism to refract light, that of lenses to magnify, etc.

I'd apply my rule of thumb for spells: go with your initial thoughts on the
subject. Windows are transparent because that's the first thing people
think about when windows are talked about. Granted, on the subject of
prisms probably the first thought of anyone with a bit of physics
education will be that they refract light, but the majority of people
still gawks at it when they do, so prisms might not do that on the astral
plane.

Heh, shades of the old WYTIWYG theory... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:05:12 -0800 (PST)
> Ahhh, indeed... *points to suggestion that a mage could assense
> though a fiber optic cable* ...see any problem? There is no
> light in astral space. An astral image cannot therefore be sensed
> through a medium that carries light. :)


> -----Reply Message-----
> Counter argument: the "nature" of optics translates to astral
> space.
> This nicely explains why windows etc. are transparent on the astral
> plane. It is their "nature" to be transparent. It is the "nature"
> of a
> prism to refract light, that of lenses to magnify, etc. And while
> astral
> perception might not use the eyes, it's not too much to assume that
> a
> sighted mage would localize his astral perception at his eyes.
> Basically, I find it avoids problems if I treat all optical items
> as
> working in a substantially similar fashion both mundanely and
> astrally

How then do blind people assense? Could an olfactory booster that
had been paid for with essence then aid in assensing? It is the
nature of hot things to radiate a thermal signature. Can an
assensing mage pick up thermal signatures in the astral realm?
Astral perception is a sixth sense whose external receptors are in no
way physical, even though the sensory input is processed by the
mage's dominant sensory cortex.

I would allow a mage to look through a scope and then astrally
assense. The scope is transparent. However, the range of their
astral senses is not in any way augmented by the scope, because the
optical properties of lenses menas nothing to a purely psychic sense.
Further, since the sides of the scope are opaque, the mage will view
the astral some what like a child staring through a cardboard tube
from the core of a paper towel roll.

There are two seperate unrelated rules at work here.

Rule 1: Objects that are transparent in the physical realm are
transparent in the astral as well. Objects that are opaque in the
physical realm are likewise opaque in the astral.

Rule 2: Astral perception is a purely psychic sense that does not
rely on any physical sensory organ.

These two rules are seperate, and in no way imply that a scope will
provide its magnification bonus to an assensing character.

Personal deduction: translucence has no meaning in astral space. If
something is more opaque than not, it is entirely opaque in the
astral. If it is more transparent than not, it is entirely
transparent in the astral. For smoke/mist/etc, I rule that mages can
assense through anything that carries perception penalties of +6 or
less, as a general practice.

I just realized that a blindfold should not stop you from assensing,
unless it was thick enough to extend outside your aura. Interesting.

======Korishinzo
--Meet my new Adept, Stick. He's a janitor and martial arts master.
What do you mean Stan Lee is standing behind me and he looks mad? :)



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Message no. 23
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:14:44 -0800 (PST)
Ice Heart wrote:

> Rule 1: Objects that are transparent in the physical
> realm are
> transparent in the astral as well. Objects that are
> opaque in the
> physical realm are likewise opaque in the astral.
>
> Rule 2: Astral perception is a purely psychic sense
> that does not
> rely on any physical sensory organ.
>[blindfolds]

I have not followed this discussion sufficiently to be
certain as to whether this has come up, but perhaps it
would be useful to make a distinction between a mage
simply assensing as such and a mage assensing while
astrally projecting. This assumes that the former does
not automatically imply the latter, but I think it's
not made clear anywhere whether it does (assensing
mages don't necessarily slump and lose control of
their body the way astrally projecting ones' do).
In such a case one could claim that an in-body
assensing mage is limited by the available sensory
experiences, whereas an astrally projecting mage does
not suffer from this limitation. Blind mages assensing
would still not incur any penalty, as the astral plane
could be a composite of far more sensations in a far
different/more arbitrary hierarchy than "ordinary
reality" and one might easily compensate for blindness
on such a plane of existence, much as blind persons
tend to hear better than their seeing peers. Any PC
who opts to have a physically handicapped mage could
thereby provide the GM with novel opportunities for
description of the astral (e.g. not using visual
language and metaphor while describing stuff).

Does this make sense? Is it a useful distinction?

Cheers,

Jan Jaap



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Message no. 24
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:32:19 -0800 (PST)
> I have not followed this discussion sufficiently to be
> certain as to whether this has come up, but perhaps it
> would be useful to make a distinction between a mage
> simply assensing as such and a mage assensing while
> astrally projecting. This assumes that the former does
> not automatically imply the latter, but I think it's
> not made clear anywhere whether it does (assensing
> mages don't necessarily slump and lose control of
> their body the way astrally projecting ones' do).
> In such a case one could claim that an in-body
> assensing mage is limited by the available sensory
> experiences, whereas an astrally projecting mage does
> not suffer from this limitation. Blind mages assensing
> would still not incur any penalty, as the astral plane
> could be a composite of far more sensations in a far
> different/more arbitrary hierarchy than "ordinary
> reality" and one might easily compensate for blindness
> on such a plane of existence, much as blind persons
> tend to hear better than their seeing peers. Any PC
> who opts to have a physically handicapped mage could
> thereby provide the GM with novel opportunities for
> description of the astral (e.g. not using visual
> language and metaphor while describing stuff).
>
> Does this make sense? Is it a useful distinction?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jan Jaap

An astrally projecting mage is a whole different thing, and not
really a point of contention in this thread. The point of contention
is really whether or not a mage with a rifle gets the benefit of a
scope on the rifle if he aims at someone while assensing them.

I have had two games now where a player created a blind character.
One was a mage, the other an adept with an astral perception power.
Both worked pretty well, as concepts, and the +2 penalty to purely
physical actions while assensing only proved a small fly in the
oinment, when measured against the exciting roleplaying the character
provided. It was in the course of one of those games that I
developed the house edge "Dual Sensing". It is a variable edge,
costing 2 or 4 points. Each level offsets a +1 penalty for physical
actions while assensing. In effect, the mage (or adept in that case)
has been assensing so much that they have learned to keep track of
the astra without losing track of the physical. Much like a dual
natured creature can inately do. Thus, at 4 points, the mage can
assense and still carry out purely physical actions without the +2
penalty. Which leads to more role playing fun because then the
players forget their character is blind. So they go to read
something and realize they can't. Or they ask what someone looked
like and say "they seemed sad, and a little sick, maybe a cold or
something". :)

======Korishinzo
--who loves when players forget stuff about their characters like
that *evil grin*



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Message no. 25
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Using Mudane Items while Percving
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 21:24:34 -0500
At 11:39 AM 1/19/2005 +0000, WC wrote:

> When astrally perceiving, you are still in full control of your body,
>but mundane (physical) tasks get a +2 modifier. Astral sight makes an
>excellent poor man's low-light vision (which you can't, however, use to
>see through smoke).

It's even better in total darkness. :-)

--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/

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