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Message no. 1
From: Jak Koke <jkoke@****.EDU>
Subject: Various defenses of FASA
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:09:41 -0800
Well, I can't believe I'm letting myself get pulled in, but the recent
slamming on the World according to FASA has slotted me off, though just a
little. I don't work at FASA, I just like them a lot.

Rumor #1: FASA is exceedingly harsh regarding submissions, especially from
new writers.

In my experience, FASA is more accepting of new writers than most
publishers. This is true of game material as well as novels. The problem of
waiting six months or more for a response on an "over the transom"
(unsolicited) submission is commonplace in the writing business. It sucks
for the freelancer, but it's not limited to one or two companies.

I submitted seven novel proposals over the course of a year or so before
hearing a response. It came on the last one, for Liferock (an ED book). I
was a new writer, having only published about five or six short stories at
the time. Mind you, I did not get a contract; I got a "we like this idea,
send us some more chapters and lets see if you can write". I did. They liked
it, and I got a contract for the novel. This whole process took another six
months or so.

I wrote the book and sent it in on deadline, and this was 3 years ago.
Because of differences between FASA and Roc, the Earthdawn novels were
dropped from production, though FASA assures me they still plan on putting
them out. (I'm not holding my breath). BTW, if you want to see Liferock
published or Caroline Spector's ED novels "Scars" and "Little
Treasures" the
prequels to "Worlds Without End" which tell the story of Aina and Ysgrathe
(sp?), please call FASA or email to FASAMktg@***.com

The books are quite good.

Anyhow, my point is: this is not a fast business.

After writing Liferock, I sold them a proposal for an SR book -- Dead Air.
Same thing happened: they liked the synopsis so I did a complete chapter
outline and a few chapters, then I got a contract a while later. I wrote the
book and turned it in on time.

My advice to anyone submitting manuscripts (to any publisher) for
consideration is to be patient. Work on your next proposal or manuscript or
whatever and forget about what you've sent out. If six months go by and you
haven't heard anything, send a jog letter -- an extremely cordial note to
the publisher asking about the status of your submission. Wait another six
months, working on new stuff. Send another job letter. If you want to
withdraw your submission, send another extremely cordial letter (pissing of
a publisher is not the way to sell anything) saying that you regret to have
to withdraw you manuscript for consideration, blah, blah, blah. Send it to
someone else or rework it and resubmit it.

The more you submit, the more likely it is that you'll get a response. Once
you do, write the best fragging thing you can, and get it in on time. Be
easy to work with; offer to do revisions if necessary.


Rumor #2: Calfree Sourcebook sucks and was written by non-californians.

I did not write the Calfree Sourcebook, but did help with some of the ideas.
I live in San Diego county, and I have spent a lot of time in the Los
Angeles area as well as the Bay Area and northern CA. I was writing Dead Air
at the same time as the Sourcebook was in draft form (it did suck then). But
Lori Methany did a lot of work to make it better. She also lives in
california, though I'm not sure where exactly. I think it's Oroville or Chico.

The only non-californians who did significant work on it were Diane
Piron-Gelman -- FASA's brilliant editor -- and Mike Mulvihill.

I like the Calfree sourcebook, and they put my city in Aztlan! The stuff
they did with magic and the desert was very cool.

FWIW, the gypsies were created by me as background for the Dead Air
characters, Jonathon Winger and Tamara Ny. They ended up in the sourcebook
because Mike liked them. I didn't write them up in the sourcebook, but I
read over what they wrote and didn't see a problem with it. I also had some
impact on the ideas which eventually ended up in the LA section -- old LAX
(the Fixx) and some other stuff that you see in both Dead Air and Calfree.


Rumor #3: Australian book is being purposefully delayed

AFAIK, after the original announcement of the release of this book, noone at
FASA has said it's coming out at all. Look at the schedule of upcoming books
(Mike posted one here a while back); is it there? No. I have a tentative
schedule for 1998 and it's not on that one either.

What happened with this book (and it happens from time to time) is that FASA
contracted for it, and when it came, the editors deemed it unacceptable.
They have pretty high standards for consistency and quality. They shelved
it in favor of better products.

Once again, unless Mike comes on here and contradicts me, do not expect an
Australia sourcebook in the next two years. Also, when I mentioned the
Space book, I said that Mike saw a need for it, but that it wouldn't be out
before 1999. That doesn't mean it will be out in 1999. Mike is working on
it, but the lead time on books like that is very long.

End of rant. Sorry if I've offended anyone. I just hate to see people
slamming such a great company.

Best,

--Jak

Jak Koke | "Though I am not naturally honest,
jkoke@****.edu | I am so sometimes by chance."
La Jolla, CA | --Shakespeare (The Winter's Tale)
Message no. 2
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Various defenses of FASA
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 03:20:45 +0100
In article <2.2.32.19970402200941.006eb90c@*******.ucsd.edu>, Jak Koke
<jkoke@****.EDU> writes
>Well, I can't believe I'm letting myself get pulled in, but the recent
>slamming on the World according to FASA has slotted me off, though just a
>little. I don't work at FASA, I just like them a lot.

In defence of the slammers.

First off, we're not slamming FASA per-se. If that was the case, and we
were so disillusioned with FASA as to warrant beating up on them,
there's a damn good chance that
a:) we wouldn't be subscribed to this list,
b:) we wouldn't be playing or buying Shadowrun
c:) we wouldn't care less about anything they do.

We do like Shadowrun, a lot. We also respect FASA for all the hard work
they put into producing this game, however, as is the wont of the world,
many of us have strong opinions regarding things like this. It's no
different to the blazing rows that occur on the Star Trek areas, or any
other game/film/subject.

The observations made are not slamming FASA's submission times, but
their rather "old" way of doing things. No electronic submission ideas
etc etc... Something that is not envronmentally aware, or necessarily
fair on people outside the US, who pay more for their postage rates etc.
The posts are not "slamming" their books, their attitude or their
release schedule, they are observations and thoughts of people who are
individual and not sheep.

Other observations made regarding sourcebooks are in my opinion valid.
Whether people do or do not like sourcebooks is going to be a matter of
life for FASA and has always been a case in point for all the games they
produced before, and all they have planned for the future. However,
having people limited to one area submitting a sourcebook for an entire
country, is in my opinion wrong. The London and German sourcebooks are
good cases for that argument.

For example, France is historically hostile to Germany, it also is met
with derision and mickey taking in Britain. France hates the rest of
Europe right back. What happens. Half of Europe is effectively
destroyed, righting off the possibilities of exploring further areas of
the place. A continent very rich in culture and history. England had
huge areas destroyed as a result of toxic zones and radiation. Boo.
This country is plenty small enough already, without that, there were
also some ludicrous inaccuracies, which the line developers couldn't
have noticed, and a lot of "important" history and culture missed out or
contradicted. Alledgedly both books were written by people from those
countries.

A "country" sourcebook, should accept material from people scattered
around that country, giving a better and more balanced outlook.

Also, the slamming of FASA that you object to, is, albeit strongly
worded, observations of the company's product, not the company. We, as
fans and buyers, spending considerable sums of money on their material,
are more than entitled to voice our opinion of it. I have spent a
considerable fortune on purchasing everything to do with Shadowrun
except the novels. This includes the entire line of miniatures. After
paying for 63 "official" books and a number of unofficial fanzines, I
feel I'm entitled to complain if I don't like one, or to compliment
something I do like. I'm just as fair and vociferous over a book I like
as I am when I find one I don't like. That is my right as a free
citizen and a buyer of a product.


If we all blandly sit here and crawl around FASA's feet, saying "Oh yeah
man, the last book was brilliant, yea really cool" they aren't going to
get any constructive feedback on their product. Complacency is one of
the worst enemies of any product, whether it be a game system or a food
blender. It is customer feedback, and the sort of conversations that
occur on this list, and it's sister lists that will best give FASA an
idea of how their product is being received and what the fans would like
to see. The arrogance of "you get what we give you" is best displayed
in the TSR line of books. AD&D has gone through three or four changes,
all of which essentially repeat the earlier stuff, and, as a result has
lost a large proportion of the market. Although where I live is not
reflective of the world in general, only two small groups are left here
who play AD&D, and they are schoolkids, and rapidly going off the game.


Mainly here is Shadowrun Wargaming, and Cyberpunk. With a few other
games thrown in. Bloodbowl is occassionally played for amusement. That
from a situtation where AD&D was almost exclusively played here a few
years ago. Not because of the lack of other systems, there were many
others, but because it was consistent, and pretty darned good. Then
they spoiled it, and charged a fortune for it. They didn't listen
properly to the people buying their product, and still don't. Another
case in point. R.Talsorian, they encourage feedback from their
customers, and will post addendum to the Cyberpunk newsgroup, including
announcements of rules corrections and released sourcebooks. Nobody
complains there when Talsorian get slammed for a crap book, or moaned
about because something in their new Fuzion rules is screwy.


Lighten up, and smell the coffee. We are entitled to compliment and
moan if we wish. It is our money that is helping to make FASA what it
is. Some of us, like myself, have been buying FASA products for many
years. I have the entire range of books they produced for the Star Trek
game, both board and RPG, including the miniatures. I also have their
Renegade Legion game, both Wargame and RPG, including miniatures. If I
hated the company, I wouldn't buy their product, simple as that. I do
buy it, I do like it, but I'm damned if I'll sit still and let things
stagnate around my ears and add myself to the doormat without voicing my
opinion. If what I think is unacceptable, fine, they can shrug it off
and lable me as a trouble maker, I care not. But I will not be silent.
I would like to think that some of the conversations in here will help
Mike to best judge where Shadowrun is going to go, and what sort of
books his paying public want. I would like to think, in my arrogance,
that my opinion is a tiny part of that decision. Complacently sitting
here, and saying something like "great book, real neat" when I hated it,
is neither constructive, nor honest to myself. If you don't like that
opinion, or my attitude, then feel free to add me to your kill file, and
all others who have an individual and independant opinion.


For instance, your book(s) Would you prefer people to read them and
compliment you endlessly, or would you prefer some constructive
feedback, that enables you to better judge what you've done, and change
it according to what your buyers want, or are you one of those who isn't
interested and will do just about what you damn well please?


This list is populated by mostly intelligent, opinionated people. Deal
with it.


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Message no. 3
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Various defenses of FASA
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:44:37 +1000
> Rumor #3: Australian book is being purposefully delayed
>
I *Never* said that at all..... If anything I bitched that it's been in
the works for years with no further progress from what I can hear.

> AFAIK, after the original announcement of the release of this book, noone at
> FASA has said it's coming out at all. Look at the schedule of upcoming books
> (Mike posted one here a while back); is it there? No. I have a tentative
> schedule for 1998 and it's not on that one either.
>

I asked FASAMike in a private email because I was considering writing a
submission to write the sourcebook myself, because we have a good
(creative) group up here and help from friends in Sydney. He replied
that there was a guy in Perth who was already writing the book, and had
been for years. Apparently the reason that the book isn't finished is that
Mike didn't like the way it was written, courtesy of the prior product
line developer's tastes, and requested a re-write.

So, basically the book is going through the submission process again and
is not formally accepted as a project in the works.

I have since emailed the author of the book and asked for a few hints
about what's going to be in the book; No reply.

As far as the schedule goes, late '98 was the absolute earliest Mike said
it might be finished by..... I'd expect it sometime around the turn of
the century.

> End of rant. Sorry if I've offended anyone. I just hate to see people
> slamming such a great company.
>

Nah, you haven't ofended me.... And I agree it's a great company; We
just want it to be perfect, is all.

Bleach
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Various defenses of FASA
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:11:16 +0100
Jak Koke said on 12:09/ 2 Apr 97...

> Rumor #1: FASA is exceedingly harsh regarding submissions, especially from
> new writers.

No, no, that's not what we said. What that thread is/was about is that
their submission guidelines seem "exceedingly harsh" (to use your words),
which will put many people off submitting an idea they have, instead
working it out for themselves and putting it up on a web site, for
example, where they don't have to deal with very strict(-looking?)
submission guidelines. And once that's happened, the way I see it,
there's very little chance of it ever getting into a FASA sourcebook,
since game companies seem to ignore what's already on the WWW.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Never a victim," the role-model said.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Various defenses of FASA
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:56:47 +1000
> I asked FASAMike in a private email because I was considering writing a
> submission to write the sourcebook myself, because we have a good
> (creative) group up here and help from friends in Sydney. He replied
> that there was a guy in Perth who was already writing the book...

If you want to see some ideas that he is/was going to put in the Aussie
Sourcebook, check out some of the older Australian Realms magazines (if you
are in Australia anyway).

Ray
Message no. 6
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Various defenses of FASA
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:40:06 +1000
> > I asked FASAMike in a private email because I was considering writing a
> > submission to write the sourcebook myself, because we have a good
> > (creative) group up here and help from friends in Sydney. He replied
> > that there was a guy in Perth who was already writing the book...
>
> If you want to see some ideas that he is/was going to put in the Aussie
> Sourcebook, check out some of the older Australian Realms magazines (if you
> are in Australia anyway).
>

I was trying to think who the author in question worked for; Thanks. He
still works for Australian Realms magazine. I wrote them and asked them
about the issues with the Aust. info in them; They're prepared to mail
them to anybody who asks, for a fairly decent price, too.
Message no. 7
From: Andrew Corrigan <omen@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Various defenses of FASA
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:03:37 +0000
> No, no, that's not what we said. What that thread is/was about is that
> their submission guidelines seem "exceedingly harsh" (to use your words),
> which will put many people off submitting an idea they have, instead
> working it out for themselves and putting it up on a web site, for
> example, where they don't have to deal with very strict(-looking?)
> submission guidelines. And once that's happened, the way I see it,
> there's very little chance of it ever getting into a FASA sourcebook,
> since game companies seem to ignore what's already on the WWW.
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html


Although there is a very high probability I'm wrong I think I heard
somewhere that RTG's chromebook 4. is expected to contain various
weapons and cyber implants found on a web archive somewhere.
Anyone else hear anything
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Various defenses of FASA
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:57:51 +0100
Andrew Corrigan said on 19:03/ 4 Apr 97...

> Although there is a very high probability I'm wrong I think I heard
> somewhere that RTG's chromebook 4. is expected to contain various
> weapons and cyber implants found on a web archive somewhere.
> Anyone else hear anything

Yeah, if I look through the Chromebook 4 that's on the shelf with my other
RPG books, I find lots of things that are also in the Information Overload
net.sourcebooks :)

IOW: CB4 came out last year, and yes, it does have stuff Talsorian grabbed
from the net in it...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...instead of just leaving.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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