Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:15:03 -0500

Message no. 1 This post is in regards to Wordman's response... Lester, btw, something is
activated in your emails. My Win2K/OE keep trying load up language packs on
any email from you. Don't know what it is though.

Anyway, on to the post.

We've used the Vatican on numerous occasions in our games, and depending on
the games "timeline", was the impact it would have.

In almost all cases, the Vatican is treated like a fortress with an open
door policy (I know, that doesn't really make a lot of sense). There are
numerous areas that are public, but literally hundreds more that are not.

The entire place blasts with a background count (aspected) that is never
below a 3. During major ceremonies/celebrations (Easter, Christmas), the
counter aspects up to a 4/5 without difficulty.

Guards are a full mingling of whatever categories you can think of, and we
borrowed a *LITTLE* bit from the idea of the Knights Templar from another
game (RIFTS I think, may be something else though). They are a bunch of
hardasses in so far as security in the field (not in the Vatican itself
though, which is handled differently).

As far as official, public, doctrine is concerned, we play it that "the
Church" isn't so much more tolerant, but it isn't stupid either. They don't
publicly denounce other views of the world in so far as religions or
philosophical beliefs, except where they directly and obviously oppose the
church's principle doctrine (as updated with the "In Imago Dei" stuff from
the SR books). So abortion is still out, Homosexuality is still out (what a
twist on words that is), and of course Murder is out, yadda yadda yadda.

Now be warned however, in our games we have also had the recovery of the Ark
of the Covenant by another group, which made for some really fun games (at
least 20 or more now), so the Vatican has seen some major ups/downs during
its time since the Awakening (beyond those listed in the books even).

As far as the city itself is concerned. We have it as running almost
independently with one, no make that two, major exceptions. Power and
Sanitation. The Vatican doesn't have the ability to go long term on its own
internalized power sources (more than a week or so, maybe a month on the
outside) and Sanitation, being such a massive thing that it is, has no hope
of probably ever being internalized (kept entirely within the city's walls).
The one twist we have with these regards is that the people within the
Vatican, the ones who really live there, are fully expected to be ready and
willing to go "without amenities" at a moments notice and often do out of
practical habit formation.

I do see the Vatican having certain "attitudes" with regards to the
megacorporations in fact. I don't personally care what kind of philandering
he could do, the one megacorp that is flat *OUT* is Saeder-Krupp. The
dragon is simply not a welcome symbol within the walls of the Vatican and
both sides know it and don't push he issue in any way (too many saints
depicted as dragon slayers don't help the image either). Aztechnology is
another one that is *OUT* with regards to the Vatican ... as that one played
a key role in getting Catholicism made the *OUT* religion in Mexico/Aztlan
(and vice-versa). I don't think they'd majorly care about the other
megacorporations (the Triple-A's anyway), with possible exception to the
sometimes severe racism presented by some of the more stringent Japanacorps
(MCT and Shiawase).

As for "policlubs", I really think the Vatican is a bustling hive of them in
truth. Too many personal agendas have been operating within the
behind-the-scenes functions of "the Church" for far too long for them not to
exist anymore. We also have certain other fun functionaries. Of course,
being the people we are, "the Black Lodge" uses the "Order of Saint
Sylvester" to keep an eye on how things are run within the church, and to
help keep a heavy influence on how magical practicioning within the Church
is performed.

I personally think a massive book on just the Vatican could be written, but
don't have the time or energy to spend on such a thing right now (and no,
that isn't a subliminal suggestion for someone else to do it either).
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)

From:	Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:03:59 +0200

Message no. 2 And finally, NeoJudas expressed himself by writing

<snip>

> Guards are a full mingling of whatever categories you can think of, and we
> borrowed a *LITTLE* bit from the idea of the Knights Templar from another
> game (RIFTS I think, may be something else though). They are a bunch of
> hardasses in so far as security in the field (not in the Vatican itself
> though, which is handled differently).

This is something that makes me really wondering. *If* the Knights
Templar in 206x are not a rehash, e.g. following the traditions from their
historic predeccesors (sp?), I wouldn't see them guarding the very
institution
which tried to eradicate their existance.

--
arclight
All suspects are guilty, serious.
Otherwise they wouldn't be suspects, would they?
[#361]<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>[ICQ
14322211]
<> SR_D Gallerie 2.0: www.datahaven.de/gallerie <>
<> Gehirnstuerm 0.7: www.datahaven.de/arclight <>
<> SR_D Most Mails Award Winner '99 <>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

From:	Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 00 09:48:15 -0500

Message no. 3 On 7/14/00 6:03 am, Arclight said:

>
> This is something that makes me really wondering. *If* the Knights
>Templar in 206x are not a rehash, e.g. following the traditions from their
>historic predeccesors (sp?), I wouldn't see them guarding the very
>institution
>which tried to eradicate their existance.
>

True it would probably be a little more appropriate for them to be based
on the Hospitaliers or other religious order of Knights. I don't even see
The Church using the name Templars for a new military organization as
they had accused the last group of Heresy and burned most of them at the
stake.

Steve

From:	kawaii trunks@********.org
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:42:16 -0400

Message no. 4 From: "Steve Collins" <einan@*********.net>
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2000 10:48 AM

> On 7/14/00 6:03 am, Arclight said:
>
> >
> > This is something that makes me really wondering. *If* the Knights
> >Templar in 206x are not a rehash, e.g. following the traditions from
their
> >historic predeccesors (sp?), I wouldn't see them guarding the very
> >institution
> >which tried to eradicate their existance.
> >
>
> True it would probably be a little more appropriate for them to be based
> on the Hospitaliers or other religious order of Knights. I don't even see
> The Church using the name Templars for a new military organization as
> they had accused the last group of Heresy and burned most of them at the
> stake.
>
> Steve
>
>

Maybe the New Jesuits? From my impression from the Aztlan book, they seem
pretty hardcore militant and all that. =)

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii

From:	Quentin Campbell quentin@*******************.com
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:59:08 -0400

Message no. 5 > Maybe the New Jesuits? From my impression from the Aztlan book, they seem
> pretty hardcore militant and all that. =)

Since the real-life Jesuits model themselves at least somewhat after the
Templars, this ain't too far of a stretch.

Q.

From:	Caric caric@********.com
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:48:44 -0700

Message no. 6 >From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
>[mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of Steve Collins

>> This is something that makes me really wondering. *If* the Knights
>>Templar in 206x are not a rehash, e.g. following the traditions from their
>>historic predeccesors (sp?), I wouldn't see them guarding the very
>>institution
>>which tried to eradicate their existance.
>>
>
>True it would probably be a little more appropriate for them to be based
>on the Hospitaliers or other religious order of Knights. I don't even see
>The Church using the name Templars for a new military organization as
>they had accused the last group of Heresy and burned most of them at the
>stake.

Well it really depends on the spin. The Templars may very well hold the
Pope which denounced them as well as King Philip of France responsible
rather than the whole church. If the Templars managed to reclaim some of
their lost wealth than they would be able to be a very powerful force within
the church given the chance. It was money which led the Pope to denounce
them in the first place. And Philip the Fair turned his back on them
because he wanted the Pope to grant him a divorce IIRC.

~Caric

From:	Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:54:54 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 7 > True it would probably be a little more appropriate
> for them to be based
> on the Hospitaliers or other religious order of
> Knights. I don't even see
> The Church using the name Templars for a new
> military organization as
> they had accused the last group of Heresy and burned
> most of them at the
> stake.

Ok, I know of one Templar Knight, Jacques DeMolay who
has an organization with his name... yes, it's
masonic...
http://www.demolay.org/history/people/demolay/index.shtml

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:26:55 +0200

Message no. 8 According to Caric, at 9:48 on 14 Jul 00, the word on the street was...

> Well it really depends on the spin. The Templars may very well hold the
> Pope which denounced them as well as King Philip of France responsible
> rather than the whole church.

Unlikely, IMHO, but possible.

> If the Templars managed to reclaim some of their lost wealth than they
> would be able to be a very powerful force within the church given the
> chance.

This is highly unlikely. Most of the wealth of the knightly orders during
the middle ages came from their lands and their exemption from taxation.
Rich supporters of an order would give the order bits of land, and over
the centuries the total lands governed by the orders became very large
indeed, and thereby their wealth as well. However, reclaiming that wealth
would mean reclaiming their former lands -- and I doubt the current owners
would give that up. The only other route would be to do much the same
anyone else these days must do to gain lots of wealth: work hard for it,
or win the lottery. Those two methods don't seem too likely to me to allow
a knightly order to regain the power it held 600+ years before...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yes, I am broadcasting myself!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:26:55 +0200

Message no. 9 According to Arclight, at 13:03 on 14 Jul 00, the word on the street
was...

> This is something that makes me really wondering. *If* the Knights
> Templar in 206x are not a rehash, e.g. following the traditions from their
> historic predeccesors (sp?)

Modern times are too hygenic for that sort of thing ;)

> I wouldn't see them guarding the very institution which tried to
> eradicate their existance.

Agreed. The Vatican has those Swiss guards, which it would probably still
have in the 2060s -- and IMHO it wouldn't take all that much to attract
some well-trained former military types (who also happen to be catholics,
of course) to form the cadre of an elite unit of these guards.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yes, I am broadcasting myself!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:26:55 +0200

Message no. 10 According to Steve Collins, at 9:48 on 14 Jul 00, the word on the street
was...

> True it would probably be a little more appropriate for them to be based
> on the Hospitaliers or other religious order of Knights.

The problem with the Hospitalers is that they still exist, in a way: there
is another knightly order (IIRC, the one with the reference to Malta in
their name, I forgot the English name) that traces its lineage to them, so
they'd probably object if someone were to form a new order using the old
name. That doesn't leave many old orders whose names would still be
recognized today, unfortunately (the Teutonic order was the third large
one, both in the Holy Land and Europe, but they were pretty far removed
from Rome in many respects, so they're an equally unlikely candidate).

> I don't even see The Church using the name Templars for a new military
> organization as they had accused the last group of Heresy and burned
> most of them at the stake.

Not to mention it would probably be seen as a very aggressive gesture by
muslims -- AFAIK the Templars are the direct cause of the fact that
medical services in islamic countries use a red crescent on a white
background instead of a red cross...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yes, I am broadcasting myself!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	leisnj48@**.cis.uwosh.edu leisnj48@**.cis.uwosh.edu
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:15:40 -0500 (CDT)

Message no. 11 On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Raveness Ravensbane wrote:

> Ok, I know of one Templar Knight, Jacques DeMolay who
> has an organization with his name... yes, it's
> masonic...
> http://www.demolay.org/history/people/demolay/index.shtml

Not that that really means a lot these days.

My brother was one of the youth leaders of
a DeMolay order, and I was invited to join.
I also know a Mason, and girls who were in
the female equivilents.

Although, if they actually did become
"secret" in the Awakened world...uh oh.

-Jared Leisner
leisnj48@*****.edu

From:	Caric caric@********.com
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:31:53 -0700

Message no. 12 >From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
>[mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of Raveness Ravensbane

>> True it would probably be a little more appropriate
>> for them to be based
>> on the Hospitaliers or other religious order of
>> Knights. I don't even see
>> The Church using the name Templars for a new
>> military organization as
>> they had accused the last group of Heresy and burned
>> most of them at the
>> stake.
>
>Ok, I know of one Templar Knight, Jacques DeMolay who
>has an organization with his name... yes, it's
>masonic...

That was the organization that I was referring to all those emails ago. ;)

~Caric

From:	Caric caric@********.com
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:31:54 -0700

Message no. 13 >From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
>[mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of Gurth

>According to Caric, at 9:48 on 14 Jul 00, the word on the street was...
>
>> Well it really depends on the spin. The Templars may very well hold the
>> Pope which denounced them as well as King Philip of France responsible
>> rather than the whole church.
>
>Unlikely, IMHO, but possible.

Agreed, it would all depend on the power that be and their ability to make
nice nice.

>> If the Templars managed to reclaim some of their lost wealth than they
>> would be able to be a very powerful force within the church given the
>> chance.
>
>This is highly unlikely. Most of the wealth of the knightly orders during
>the middle ages came from their lands and their exemption from taxation.
>Rich supporters of an order would give the order bits of land, and over
>the centuries the total lands governed by the orders became very large
>indeed, and thereby their wealth as well. However, reclaiming that wealth
>would mean reclaiming their former lands -- and I doubt the current owners
>would give that up. The only other route would be to do much the same
>anyone else these days must do to gain lots of wealth: work hard for it,
>or win the lottery. Those two methods don't seem too likely to me to allow
>a knightly order to regain the power it held 600+ years before...

In most cases you would be correct, but the wealth of the Templars was not
based on land and title, but rather cold hard cash. They were heavy in to
mercantile sea trade between the middle east and the rest of the world.
When they were tipped off to the upcoming betrayal several ship laden with
gold and other riches escaped and disappeared, or so the story goes. In the
future where elves and trolls suddenly reappear it's not too tough to
suspend the disbelief to include knights as well.

<shrug>

~Caric

From:	Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Sat, 15 Jul 2000 09:55:58 +1000

Message no. 14 -----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Saturday, July 15, 2000 3:26 AM
Subject: RE: Vatican City; 2061

>would give that up. The only other route would be to do much the same
>anyone else these days must do to gain lots of wealth: work hard for it,
>or win the lottery. Those two methods don't seem too likely to me to allow
>a knightly order to regain the power it held 600+ years before...

And you call yourself a Shadowrun player. You completely overlooked the
third, most obvious alternative, take the money by force or guile. Now
_that_ is a likely way for a bunch of near fanatical warriors to get rich.
:?)

From:	. s t e f a n stefan@*****.org
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Sat, 15 Jul 2000 04:02:45 +0200

Message no. 15 > > If the Templars managed to reclaim some of their lost wealth than they
> > would be able to be a very powerful force within the church given the
> > chance.
>
>This is highly unlikely. Most of the wealth of the knightly orders during
>the middle ages came from their lands and their exemption from taxation.
>Rich supporters of an order would give the order bits of land, and over
>the centuries the total lands governed by the orders became very large
>indeed, and thereby their wealth as well. However, reclaiming that wealth
>would mean reclaiming their former lands -- and I doubt the current owners
>would give that up. The only other route would be to do much the same
>anyone else these days must do to gain lots of wealth: work hard for it,
>or win the lottery. Those two methods don't seem too likely to me to allow
>a knightly order to regain the power it held 600+ years before...

Extremely large money was also made on banking. As I have come to
understand it that was one of the reasons alot of people hated them, they
owed them hugh sums of money.

And ofcause looting. Since stealing from heathens was most likely not
concidered to be a crime.

.stefan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"frag you and the datastream you came on!" - sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... email ....................................... stefan@*****.org ...
... homepage .................................. http://litbo.org/ ...
... icq ................................................... 793828 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@******.com
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Sat, 15 Jul 2000 09:14:03 +0200

Message no. 16 Gurth wrote:
>
> The problem with the Hospitalers is that they still exist, in
> a way: there
> is another knightly order (IIRC, the one with the reference
> to Malta in
> their name, I forgot the English name) that traces its
> lineage to them, so
> they'd probably object if someone were to form a new order
> using the old
> name.

http://www.smom.org/

They are still very active and quite powerful, I found a link explaining
there political involvements which weren't so nice (but I seem to have lost
the reference).
(IIRC) I also seem to remember that they only recruite people of "noble
blood" or at least those holding some kind of title (ie. barons, dukes,
princes,...), except for there american members, who just seem to hold lots
of money (unfortunately this is all from memory, since I seem to have lost
all my URLs in regards with knights and their orders).

Taking their influences and growth into account I would say they survived it
through to 2061 and would hold quite some power.

There are also quite some other orders still active but mostely with no
influence at all and a very limited number of members. One of my friends is
a member of such an order, which (IIRC) is called the Independent and
Sovereign Military Order of Jerusalem or something like that.

Just my thoughts,

-Sven :)
--

From:	paul collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Sat, 15 Jul 2000 20:26:32 +1000

Message no. 17 ----- Original Message -----
From: NeoJudas <neojudas@******************.com>
To: ShadowRN <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2000 11:15 AM
Subject: Vatican City; 2061

> As far as the city itself is concerned. We have it as running almost
> independently with one, no make that two, major exceptions. Power and
> Sanitation. The Vatican doesn't have the ability to go long term on its
own
> internalized power sources (more than a week or so, maybe a month on the
> outside) and Sanitation, being such a massive thing that it is, has no
hope
> of probably ever being internalized (kept entirely within the city's
walls).

Power would depend on what technology they use. A small nuke plant would
give them lots of power, where a diesel generator could be from days to
weeks. (Probably only days as diesel does go off). Most likely though is
they would have a fuel cell, which would run as long as they have fuel for
it. (And hydrogen doesn't go off, so they could have lots there.)

Sanitation is annother interesting one. They may have a septic there from
the old days before sewerage. Or they may have many hidden small outlets,
to lessen the ability to get anything back up them. Chances are it would be
similar to what they currently have. Although with the possibility of
getting a ritual link out of the raw sewerage, they may have an incinerator
on site to handle the solid effluent. But then, you can always set up a
pressure pump and a hose and do a bit of psychological warfare if you end up
in a siege situation. :o)

> I do see the Vatican having certain "attitudes" with regards to the
> megacorporations in fact. I don't personally care what kind of
philandering
> he could do, the one megacorp that is flat *OUT* is Saeder-Krupp. The
> dragon is simply not a welcome symbol within the walls of the Vatican and
> both sides know it and don't push he issue in any way (too many saints
> depicted as dragon slayers don't help the image either). Aztechnology is
> another one that is *OUT* with regards to the Vatican ... as that one
played
> a key role in getting Catholicism made the *OUT* religion in Mexico/Aztlan
> (and vice-versa).

Let alone the whole blood sacrifice thing that smacks of every devil
worshiping idiom within the catholic (Or for that matter, christian) church.

> I personally think a massive book on just the Vatican could be written,
but
> don't have the time or energy to spend on such a thing right now (and no,
> that isn't a subliminal suggestion for someone else to do it either).

I agree, although I think FASA would never endorse it. (Fair nuff too)

Annachie

I will not conduct my own fire drills
---Bart's Blackboard

From:	David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject:	Vatican City; 2061
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 02:35:22 -0700

Message no. 18 From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Date sent: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:26:55 +0200
Subject: RE: Vatican City; 2061
[SNIP]
>
> Agreed. The Vatican has those Swiss guards, which it would probably still
> have in the 2060s -- and IMHO it wouldn't take all that much to attract
> some well-trained former military types (who also happen to be catholics,
> of course) to form the cadre of an elite unit of these guards.
>

Since currently the members of the Vaitcan's Swiss Guards are all
veterans of the Swiss Army your prediction is likely to be accurate. :-)

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato

Mailing List Logs for

Further Reading

Disclaimer