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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 07:36:15 -0600
George Metz wrote:
|
| In a message dated 97-08-22 00:21:16 EDT, you write:
|
| > I don't think so. If a decker with response increase III is decking
| > at the same time as a Sam with Wired III is in combat, the rules
| > state that you run them both simultaneously. Somehow that response
| > increase III is allowing the decker to act as fast as the Sam.
|
| Yuppers, that's how it works. Keep in mind that you only issue commands, and
| the commands you issue are at the speed of thought. Response Increase
| determines how fast the thing that PROCESSES your commands - ie, your deck -
| can actually react to them. Your deck does all of the work, you just tell it
| what to do and hope that it does it fast enough.

So.. why can't you do the same with a processor and a vehicle? You
issue commands to the processor that's driving the vehicle. The
faster the processor, the faster it'll react to your commands, the
more actions you'll have per phase while driving the vehicle.

The real problem isn't with VCRs and Wired Reflexes, it's that
Deckers get initiative dice for free, without having to pay essence
or enhancing their own neural pathways. Both a VCR and Wired
Reflexes install neural enhancers. But somehow a deck with Response
Increase aleviates the need for neural enhancers. That's the
problem. If Deckers were required to install Response Increase
internally (just neural enhancers) then we wouldn't be having this
debate.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 2
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 18:49:40 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-22 09:36:46 EDT, you write:

> So.. why can't you do the same with a processor and a vehicle? You
> issue commands to the processor that's driving the vehicle. The
> faster the processor, the faster it'll react to your commands, the
> more actions you'll have per phase while driving the vehicle.

Because then you wouldn't be driving the vehicle, the processor would be.
That's also known as an autopilot. And, BTW, with the number of dice
available, as well as the TN modifiers from a VCR, there is NO ONE who can
beat a rigger when he's driving/flying/floating, unless it's another rigger.

> The real problem isn't with VCRs and Wired Reflexes, it's that
> Deckers get initiative dice for free, without having to pay essence
> or enhancing their own neural pathways. Both a VCR and Wired
> Reflexes install neural enhancers. But somehow a deck with Response
> Increase aleviates the need for neural enhancers. That's the
> problem. If Deckers were required to install Response Increase
> internally (just neural enhancers) then we wouldn't be having this
> debate.

Actually, to get that level of response increase without building your own
deck, you need to spend 1,941,000 nuyen - that's for an MPCP that can HANDLE
Response-3, something you would need a Computer skill of 8 or higher to
build, and the Response -3 itself. The price goes way down if you build it,
but you've got to have the capabilities to do it, and the equipment. So if
you're saying that it's easier to be a cross-trained decker, you're right, it
is. But either expect to be REALLY poor, are not very good in either of your
areas.
At this point, Essence doesn't matter. Most are going for C2 decks these
days, lotsa headware memory, Encephalons, and any of a dozen other goodies to
boost their decking skills - such as a math SPU. They may not spend essence
on their increase, but they're spending it elsewhere.

Wolfstar
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 19:07:16 -0600
George Metz wrote:
|
| In a message dated 97-08-22 09:36:46 EDT, you write:
|
| > So.. why can't you do the same with a processor and a vehicle? You
| > issue commands to the processor that's driving the vehicle. The
| > faster the processor, the faster it'll react to your commands, the
| > more actions you'll have per phase while driving the vehicle.
|
| Because then you wouldn't be driving the vehicle, the processor would be.
| That's also known as an autopilot. And, BTW, with the number of dice
| available, as well as the TN modifiers from a VCR, there is NO ONE who can
| beat a rigger when he's driving/flying/floating, unless it's another rigger.

So, is an MCPC and autopilot? I don't think so, because a decker
uses his computer skill for all the tests. That's what it keeps
coming down to. The technology exists. Deckers us it. Why can't
riggers?

| > Deckers get initiative dice for free, without having to pay essence
|
| Actually, to get that level of response increase without building your own
| deck, you need to spend 1,941,000 nuyen - that's for an MPCP that can HANDLE

You didn't answer the rest of my question. Why do deckers get an
increase in reaction without the need for neural enhancers? Why do
riggers need neural enhancers when exterior technology exists that
can do the same thing? You should be able to do a partial install of
a VCR on a rigger (just the MST) and put a Response Increase in the
vehicle control gear.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 4
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 03:35:02 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-22 21:07:12 EDT, you write:

> So, is an MPCP and autopilot? I don't think so, because a decker
> uses his computer skill for all the tests. That's what it keeps
> coming down to. The technology exists. Deckers us it. Why can't
> riggers?

The complexity of the system. A rigger, when jacked in, turns the wheels on a
car in much the same way that you pivot. You want to do it, you do it. The
car goes forward when he's jacked in with about the same level of higher
brain activity that you use when walking. Basically, it's got to directly
connect to all of your senses - which a datajack does - AND most of your
semi-autonomous functions, such as limb movement, blinking, etc. You don't
think about which muscle groups you're contracting to move your arm; a rigger
in an airplane doesn't think about which cables and linkages are being
operated when they adjust the tail rudder or flaps. That's why VCR's are so
invasive, they have to link to the subconscious areas of your brain. A deck
won't do that, and a decker doesn't need it - he needs an off switch for
everything but his hands(for typing on a cool deck). A VCR has to have so
many nervous connections beyond a standard DNI and RAS Override, it's not
funny.

> | > Deckers get initiative dice for free, without having to pay essence
> | Actually, to get that level of response increase without building your
own
> | deck you need to spend 1,941,000 nuyen - that's for an MPCP that can
HANDLE
>
> You didn't answer the rest of my question. Why do deckers get an
> increase in reaction without the need for neural enhancers? Why do
> riggers need neural enhancers when exterior technology exists that
> can do the same thing? You should be able to do a partial install of
> a VCR on a rigger (just the MST) and put a Response Increase in the
> vehicle control gear.

Because a deck's Microprossesor does 99.5% of all the actual WORK in
decking, the decker just tells it what work needs to be done. The Computer
skill governs how well you define that work. In a VCR, the necessary
connections to your semi-autonomous reflexes and command processing centers
of your brain require those neural enhancers.

Wolfstar
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:35:22 -0600
George Metz wrote:
|
| > Why do deckers get an
| > increase in reaction without the need for neural enhancers? Why do
| > riggers need neural enhancers when exterior technology exists that
| > can do the same thing? You should be able to do a partial install of
| > a VCR on a rigger (just the MST) and put a Response Increase in the
| > vehicle control gear.
|
| Because a deck's Microprossesor does 99.5% of all the actual WORK in
| decking, the decker just tells it what work needs to be done. The Computer
| skill governs how well you define that work. In a VCR, the necessary
| connections to your semi-autonomous reflexes and command processing centers
| of your brain require those neural enhancers.

Okay :) I agree with the rules regarding VCRs and Wired Reflexes,
but I think that Deckers should also require neural enhancers if they
want to increase their reaction time while decking (maybe each level
grants +1d6) in addition to response increase for their decks (at a
much lower cost and granting +2 Reaction per level).

And, it also bugs me that riggers can't use their neural enhancers
while they aren't rigged.

Just my two cents.

BTW, you finally won me over on the crowbar debate :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 6
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 18:38:11 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-22 22:02:10 EDT, dbuehrer@****.ORG (David Buehrer)
writes:

> The real problem isn't with VCRs and Wired Reflexes, it's that
> Deckers get initiative dice for free, without having to pay essence
> or enhancing their own neural pathways. Both a VCR and Wired
> Reflexes install neural enhancers. But somehow a deck with Response
> Increase aleviates the need for neural enhancers. That's the
> problem. If Deckers were required to install Response Increase
> internally (just neural enhancers) then we wouldn't be having this
> debate.
>
This sounds familiar....in the games here we have "Matrix Parallel Rigging"
as an option...it costs a bit more for the vehicle to be modified, but gets
the initiative up without the modifications...

On another note, as an Otaku (decker thing here) has his/her own variation on
faster reflexes in the matrix, can they "create a form that acts as Improved
Response?"
-K
Message no. 7
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 18:46:12 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-23 01:07:09 EDT, dbuehrer@****.ORG (David Buehrer)
writes:

>
> You didn't answer the rest of my question. Why do deckers get an
> increase in reaction without the need for neural enhancers? Why do
> riggers need neural enhancers when exterior technology exists that
> can do the same thing? You should be able to do a partial install of
> a VCR on a rigger (just the MST) and put a Response Increase in the
> vehicle control gear.
>
As I was reading this post and the other's associated to it, a thought
occurred. During all the arguments/discussions of "Who's the Fastest" that
I've ever heard, everyone always brings up this comparison (but a decker
gets' "X" dice, does the mind think so quickly?). So I am asking everyone...

Does It?

-K
Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 19:21:41 -0600
J. Keith Henry wrote:
|
| As I was reading this post and the other's associated to it, a thought
| occurred. During all the arguments/discussions of "Who's the Fastest" that
| I've ever heard, everyone always brings up this comparison (but a decker
| gets' "X" dice, does the mind think so quickly?). So I am asking everyone...
|
| Does It?

Instictive reactions are very quick. Anything that requires
conscious thought though... Which is why I have a problem with a
decker being able to keep up with his deck. My opinion is that a
decker's mind can't keep up with his deck under most conditions
(matrix combat being one of them).

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 9
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 02:11:33 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-23 07:44:42 EDT, you write:

> Because a deck's Microprossesor does 99.5% of all the actual WORK in
> decking, the decker just tells it what work needs to be done. The Computer
> skill governs how well you define that work. In a VCR, the necessary
> connections to your semi-autonomous reflexes and command processing
centers
> of your brain require those neural enhancers.

Pardon me, but could a rigger not have a VCR that is in an external deck,
like a rigger? The thought has occured to me that a decker can use a
cyberdeck (non-cranial) and still get all of the boosts. Why not a rigger?
This way the essence cost paid is only for the datajack.

AirWisp
Message no. 10
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 02:54:27 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-23 03:35:46 EDT, W0lfstar@***.COM writes:

>
> Because a deck's Microprossesor does 99.5% of all the actual WORK in
> decking, the decker just tells it what work needs to be done. The Computer
> skill governs how well you define that work. In a VCR, the necessary
> connections to your semi-autonomous reflexes and command processing
centers
> of your brain require those neural enhancers.
>
> Wolfstar
>
Okay, I'm in this one now. Sorry to crash you're party guys, but a machine
is a machine. YES, there are differences in the bulk volume, and YES I do
realize that a decker gets initiative dice for "free" (Essence-wise anyway).
However, let me give you a scenario...

Rigger is moving a drone, his initiative is a 25, with a VCR-3 at his
control.
Decker is moving a gunport (via slave port), his initiative is a 25, with a
Spoof- 6.

Who gets the better shot?

Decker get's his/her Hacking Pool (Slaves test)
Rigger get's his/her Control Pool (Piloting test)

Both have a -6 to their action modifier. (VCR 3 = -6, Spoof = -6)

Technically, the Rigger might still have a better chance, because s/he will
likely have a better skill, but oops, it's now a Computer Skill test (this
could suck, if any of the PC's are deckers I know of).

They both have access to the same stuff potentially (BattleTAC, Tactical
Computer, Sentry Guidance Assist, Lock-On Procedures (if you really know the
rules, you'll know what I mean with this), and possibly even tactical
"painting").

Question Stands...Who Gets the Better....
-K
Message no. 11
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 15:44:19 EDT
Okay, here's a solution for the people who want it to be possible for a
character to be a capable rigger without needing extra cyber. Take your
basic cyber zombie with MBW 3 or so. Remember the discussion on how you
could play with the chip in the Move-by-Wire to do things like make
remote-control cyberzombies? Well, you could also use the same idea to
create a VCR effect, slap some rigger jacks in the back of the guy's neck
(closest to the MBW system) and away you go. And he gets the initiative
bonus from the MBW, he gets feedback from the MBW to his brain, so you
could rationalize the reduction in handling, etc, etc, ad nauseum. And
you can pull the same trick with a decker: run a datajack through a
specially modified MBW system, he gets the benfits of the MBW, plus
(maybe, GM's call here) the Response Increase. Scary, neh?


BTW, here's a practical, non-munchie application of the MBW system (which
could even rationalise its existence): run all the neural connections to
the body through it instead of the spinal cord, bypassing places where
the spinal cord has been severed/broken/etc. Such a character would be
able to walk, even if paralyzed.


Canthros
Message no. 12
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 15:54:36 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-23 13:35:12 EDT, you write:

> | Because a deck's Microprossesor does 99.5% of all the actual WORK in
> | decking, the decker just tells it what work needs to be done. The
Computer
> | skill governs how well you define that work. In a VCR, the necessary
> | connections to your semi-autonomous reflexes and command processing
> | centers of your brain require those neural enhancers.
>
> Okay :)

WOOHOO!!!! He agreed with me.... =)

> I agree with the rules regarding VCRs and Wired Reflexes,
> but I think that Deckers should also require neural enhancers if they
> want to increase their reaction time while decking (maybe each level
> grants +1d6) in addition to response increase for their decks (at a
> much lower cost and granting +2 Reaction per level).

I can almost see it, except for one thing. In Cybertechnology, the rules for
the knee-jerk reaction from Wired Reflexes applies a +1 TN mod for every
+1D6, which means that the bonus initiative dice are the reflex reaction.
Okay, say you accidentally put your hand on a hot burner on your kitchen
stove. The pain impulse will travel from your hand, up your arm, through your
shoulder, and to your spinal cord. it then goes to your muscles, causing them
to contract so that you automatically pull your hand away. The impulse never
reaches your brain. So, in effect, initiative dice in a deck would measure
the deck's ability to react without instruction - activate a priority load of
combat programs, auto-run an Armor program, sleaze an IC, etc.
At least, that's my reasoning.

> And, it also bugs me that riggers can't use their neural enhancers
> while they aren't rigged.

That's 'cause they're designed to intercept, re-route, and THEN enhance the
neural transmissions, not just enhance them.

> BTW, you finally won me over on the crowbar debate :)

WOOHOO!!!!! He agreed on two things!!! <does the happy-dance> =)

Wolfstar
Message no. 13
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 17:19:05 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-23 18:47:14 EDT, you write:

> As I was reading this post and the other's associated to it, a thought
> occurred. During all the arguments/discussions of "Who's the Fastest"
that
> I've ever heard, everyone always brings up this comparison (but a decker
> gets' "X" dice, does the mind think so quickly?). So I am asking
everyone...
>
> Does It?

Actually, Irrelevant. As I stated elsewhere, the MPCP does all of the work
for you, you just tell it how to do the work. That's what response increase
is, not "speed of thought"....

Wolfstar
Message no. 14
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:01:28 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-24 02:12:37 EDT, you write:

> > Because a deck's Microprossesor does 99.5% of all the actual WORK in
> > decking, the decker just tells it what work needs to be done. The
Computer
> > skill governs how well you define that work. In a VCR, the necessary
> > connections to your semi-autonomous reflexes and command processing
> > centers of your brain require those neural enhancers.
>
> Pardon me, but could a rigger not have a VCR that is in an external deck,
> like a rigger? The thought has occured to me that a decker can use a
> cyberdeck (non-cranial) and still get all of the boosts. Why not a
rigger?
> This way the essence cost paid is only for the datajack.

That was what the thread was all about. It's not possible to do so because
of the way that a rigger interfaces with the vehicle. In essence, the vehicle
BECOMES his physical body while he's jacked in. The only time this occurs in
decing is on a UV rated system, and those are beyond rare. Check the rest of
the thread for a more in-depth explanation.

Wolfstar
Message no. 15
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:37:58 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-24 05:02:48 EDT, you write:

> Okay, I'm in this one now. Sorry to crash you're party guys, but a machine
> is a machine.

Incorrect. A machine, yes, is a machine. But one type of machine can exist
that works completely different from the other. A pulley is a simple machine.
You don't see pulleys as integral to a computer.

> Rigger is moving a drone, his initiative is a 25, with a VCR-3 at his
control.
> Decker is moving a gunport (via slave port), his initiative is a 25, with
a Spoof- 6.
>
> Who gets the better shot?

Irrelevant. The drone is a much more versatile device, and a rigger's
interface is much more complex than that of a decker's. From a game mechanics
standpoint, the shots may be identical. From a universe-reality standpoint,
most likely the rigger because the drone can manuever, whereas the gunport
cannot.

Wolfstar
Message no. 16
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:02:12 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-24 15:47:19 EDT, you write:

> Okay, here's a solution for the people who want it to be possible for a
> character to be a capable rigger without needing extra cyber. Take your
> basic cyber zombie with MBW 3 or so. Remember the discussion on how you
> could play with the chip in the Move-by-Wire to do things like make
> remote-control cyberzombies? Well, you could also use the same idea to
> create a VCR effect, slap some rigger jacks in the back of the guy's neck
> (closest to the MBW system) and away you go. And he gets the initiative
> bonus from the MBW, he gets feedback from the MBW to his brain, so you
> could rationalize the reduction in handling, etc, etc, ad nauseum. And
> you can pull the same trick with a decker: run a datajack through a
> specially modified MBW system, he gets the benfits of the MBW, plus
> (maybe, GM's call here) the Response Increase. Scary, neh?

PLEASE tell me you're joking. Move-by-Wire puts you into a full-body muscle
seizure, and then has an interpreter chip to interpret signals going to the
brain/spinal column AND from the brain/spinal column, which then releases the
seizure in a specific direction. The interpreter chip doesn't transmit, it
couldn't provide sensor or ASIST interfacing, and the computer control of
musculature wouldn't provide ANY bonuses to rigging and decking.
Remote-control mods would allow you to rig the cyberzombie by cutting signals
from his brain off and re-routing signals to the brain to whoever's rigging
him. That's how that would work, IMHO.

> BTW, here's a practical, non-munchie application of the MBW system (which
> could even rationalise its existence): run all the neural connections to
> the body through it instead of the spinal cord, bypassing places where
> the spinal cord has been severed/broken/etc. Such a character would be
> able to walk, even if paralyzed.

Now THAT works to an extent, but they'd be more likely to use reaction
enhancers to bridge the gap. More essence friendly, nuyen friendly, and
doesn't create a killing machine as a side effect. =)

Wolfstar
Message no. 17
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 21:28:47 -0600
George Metz wrote:
|
| > Pardon me, but could a rigger not have a VCR that is in an external deck,
| > like a rigger? The thought has occured to me that a decker can use a
| > cyberdeck (non-cranial) and still get all of the boosts. Why not a
| rigger?
| > This way the essence cost paid is only for the datajack.
|
| That was what the thread was all about. It's not possible to do so because
| of the way that a rigger interfaces with the vehicle. In essence, the vehicle
| BECOMES his physical body while he's jacked in. The only time this occurs in
| decing is on a UV rated system, and those are beyond rare. Check the rest of
| the thread for a more in-depth explanation.

Okay, I finally got it. Let me put my spin on it.

A Sam's wired reflexes consist of neural enhancers and adrenal
pumps. This allows him to react faster mentally, and his muscles can
keep up.

A Rigger's VCR consists of neural enhancers and MST. This allows him
to react faster mentally, and control the car as if it were his own
body.

A Decker doesn't need neural enhancers. A Decker is basically
playing a video game. He issues commands to his deck mentally, and
using his keyboard. On push of a button tells the deck to direct an
attack at whatever he's concentrating on. The deck's level of
response increase determines how fast it carries out that attack.

Imagine you're playing a video game against a friend by connecting
your computers together. You've got a Pentium and he's got a 286.
During the course of the game you fire at eachother simultaneously.
Each of you see the other guys shot coming at you. You each try to
raise your shields. Your Pentium process the command effortlessly
and your shields come up. His 286 has to think about it, and by the
time his shields come up, he's allready been hit.

Deckers are video game grandmasters. Think of each of their actions
as being the equivalent of a free action (if you're playing a video
game how many times can you push the fire button while someone's
tryting to fire a real gun?). But the game mechanics balance it out
by limiting how fast his deck can process that button push, and keep
track of everything that's going on in the net.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 18
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:01:46 EDT
On Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:02:12 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:

<<PLEASE tell me you're joking. Move-by-Wire puts you into a full-body
muscle seizure, and then has an interpreter chip to interpret signals
going to the brain/spinal column AND from the brain/spinal column, which
then releases the seizure in a specific direction.>>


Here's a quick question: I realize that's how the item is written, but
that doesn't seem to match up with the description of how a person with
MBW acts. IMO, someone like this would be moving in a series of
ultra-fast jerks and twitches, not smoothly at all. OTOH, I haven't
really gotten a detailed read of Cybertech, since I don't own it. The
reason I've assumed that the initiative and reaction bonuses would count
is that I've assumed (possibly in error, wouldn't be the first time:(
that the MBW works by producing a faster brain-body interface. The same
bonii would apply to rigging through the MBW because it would be capable
of interpreting the neural signals that the brain already transmits into
info that the vehicle control gear would use. Ditto for the datajack
idea. Perhaps that isn't correct, I don't know, I'd have to get
Cybertech and read it closely, but it makes sense to me, based on my
understanding (correct or otherwise) of how the item works.


<< The interpreter chip doesn't transmit, it couldn't provide sensor or
ASIST interfacing, and the computer control of musculature wouldn't
provide ANY bonuses to rigging and decking. Remote-control mods would
allow you to rig the cyberzombie by cutting signals from his brain off
and re-routing signals to the brain to whoever's rigging him. That's how
that would work, IMHO.>>


Except that sensory information almost certainly has to be routed through
the MBW, even if it isn't messed with in transit. And it wouldn't be the
same chip/microcomputer, you'd have to use a modified one (I'm not that
dense:) ASIST circuitry is small enough to fit in a datajack, I'm sure
you could squeeze it into the MBW as well. I would think it would
increase the Essence cost a bit (rigger jacks + more advanced
circuitry/wiring + basic MBW), but I don't know that it would be totally
impossible.



<<Now THAT works to an extent, but they'd be more likely to use reaction
enhancers to bridge the gap. More essence friendly, nuyen friendly, and
doesn't create a killing machine as a side effect. =)>>


Except that I figure there's also got to be a level 0 MBW which doesn't
actually re-interpret the neural signals, just passes them on to the
body. Not much use to a shadowrunner, perhaps, but to a quadriplegic...

Here's another idea: a MBW setup with a variable level. Capable of being
switched (by learned neural response) to any level from 0 (no signal
re-interpretation, just passes signals to body as appropriate) to
whatever level is installed. A sort of 'off-switch' for your MBW. Again,
there would be additional cost (both nuyen and Essence wise), but it
would be greatly useful.


Just to reiterate my point: this wouldn't involve your standard form of
Move-by-Wire, it would use a heavily modified form of it. Possible way
these mods could work: Move by Wire can support a number of modifications
up to it's level, however, each modification reduce the initiative bonus
by one level.


Canthros (Ah, well, it's only a game, after all:)
Message no. 19
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:21:30 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-25 10:02:40 EDT, you write:

> Here's a quick question: I realize that's how the item is written, but
> that doesn't seem to match up with the description of how a person with
> MBW acts. IMO, someone like this would be moving in a series of
> ultra-fast jerks and twitches, not smoothly at all. OTOH, I haven't
> really gotten a detailed read of Cybertech, since I don't own it.

That's the right read, but you seem to be misinterpreting. The ultra-fast
jerks and twitches would occur in someone who is having an uncontrolled
siezure. Since the MBW system is in complete control of the body, this
doesn't happen. In a seizure, all of the muscles in your body are contracting
at the same time. The principle is, then that with MBW all of your muscles
are contracted, so that when you want to move in a certain way, all of the
muscles required to make the move already want to contract, so they react
that much faster and more smoothly.

> The reason I've assumed that the initiative and reaction bonuses would
count
> is that I've assumed (possibly in error, wouldn't be the first time:(
> that the MBW works by producing a faster brain-body interface. The same
> bonii would apply to rigging through the MBW because it would be capable
> of interpreting the neural signals that the brain already transmits into
> info that the vehicle control gear would use. Ditto for the datajack
> idea. Perhaps that isn't correct, I don't know, I'd have to get
> Cybertech and read it closely, but it makes sense to me, based on my
> understanding (correct or otherwise) of how the item works.

Actually, the faster brain-body interface is produced by the Reaction
Enhancer. I do see the logic behind what you're saying, but MBW wouldn't be
as "effective"(not counting side-effects, HA!) if it worked that way - it
probably would be called something different as well.

> Except that sensory information almost certainly has to be routed through
> the MBW, even if it isn't messed with in transit. And it wouldn't be the
> same chip/microcomputer, you'd have to use a modified one (I'm not that
> dense:) ASIST circuitry is small enough to fit in a datajack, I'm sure
> you could squeeze it into the MBW as well. I would think it would
> increase the Essence cost a bit (rigger jacks + more advanced
> circuitry/wiring + basic MBW), but I don't know that it would be totally
> impossible.

Okay, now I see the logic behind what your saying, and if MBW worked the way
you theorized, you'd be right about the bonuses. I don't know if you could
run a rig through it as it is, but you do have a point.

> Except that I figure there's also got to be a level 0 MBW which doesn't
> actually re-interpret the neural signals, just passes them on to the
> body. Not much use to a shadowrunner, perhaps, but to a quadriplegic...

I dunno, with the side-effects of MBW, they may find another way around the
problem.

> Here's another idea: a MBW setup with a variable level. Capable of being
> switched (by learned neural response) to any level from 0 (no signal
> re-interpretation, just passes signals to body as appropriate) to
> whatever level is installed. A sort of 'off-switch' for your MBW. Again,
> there would be additional cost (both nuyen and Essence wise), but it
> would be greatly useful.

Reflex Trigger? (Just a thought. It should be modifiable to work with MBW)

> Just to reiterate my point: this wouldn't involve your standard form of
> Move-by-Wire, it would use a heavily modified form of it. Possible way
> these mods could work: Move by Wire can support a number of modifications
> up to it's level, however, each modification reduce the initiative bonus
> by one level.

Sure, if you want to allow the mods. What about essence mods?

Wolfstar
Message no. 20
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:37:06 EDT
On Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:21:30 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:

<<That's the right read, but you seem to be misinterpreting.>>


<g> Wouldn't be the first time. Sometimes I've been known to read things
that aren't even there! ;)


<<The ultra-fast jerks and twitches would occur in someone who is having
an uncontrolled siezure. Since the MBW system is in complete control of
the body, this doesn't happen.>>


It just seems to me that the system would cause a person to jerk into the
direction and movements that they would normally use. Very fast, but I'm
not sure it would be very smooth.


<<In a seizure, all of the muscles in your body are contracting at the
same time.>>


That sounds _painful_.


<<The principle is, then that with MBW all of your muscles are
contracted, so that when you want to move in a certain way, all of the
muscles required to make the move already want to contract, so they react
that much faster and more smoothly.>>


If you say so:) If FASA says so, I guess it's canon, but that's why they
make house rules. I really have no idea how well such an idea would or
wouldn't necessarily work, though it sounds like the user would stand a
good chance of overstressing a muscle or bone. My interpretation has been
that it generally speeds up the processing of information in the brain,
though that would probably require an expert system.



<<Actually, the faster brain-body interface is produced by the Reaction
Enhancer. I do see the logic behind what you're saying, but MBW wouldn't
be as "effective"(not counting side-effects, HA!) if it worked that way -
it probably would be called something different as well.>>


I'm not entirely sure, but I thought the Reaction enhancers simply filled
in/sped up the reflex arcs? BTW, what side-effects (other than it can't
be removed or shut off and has an unbelievable Essence cost) does MBW
have?



<<Okay, now I see the logic behind what your saying, and if MBW worked
the way you theorized, you'd be right about the bonuses. I don't know if
you could run a rig through it as it is, but you do have a point.>>


You could maybe rig through a heavily modified version of the current
unit, though the rig would have to be setup to over-ride most of the
normal reflexes without blocking out the involuntary processes (like
heartbeat and respiration). It would wind up shutting off most of the
normal interface between body and brain, which, I think, a normal VCR
already does.



<<I dunno, with the side-effects of MBW, they may find another way around
the problem.>>


Might be, depending on what the side-effects are.



<<Reflex Trigger? (Just a thought. It should be modifiable to work with
MBW)>>


Probably similar. <g> I don't have the item descriptions on that, either.



<<Sure, if you want to allow the mods. What about essence mods?>>


That would more or less be incorporated into it already. For instance, if
you wanted a Level 1 MBW with the shut-off, you'd have a system with the
Essence cost, price, etc of a Level 2 system.


Canthros (okay, so cyber isn't my specialty:)
Message no. 21
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 03:57:01 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-26 00:52:56 EDT, you write:

> It just seems to me that the system would cause a person to jerk into the
> direction and movements that they would normally use. Very fast, but I'm
> not sure it would be very smooth.

Okay, the way I would look at it is, yes, there would be a jerk at the
beginning of the movement, but unless you were going full-tilt on Wired
Reflexes or MBW yourself, you wouldn't notice it. There *is* a slight tremor
in certain muscle groups on occasion, but it's very slight and only occurs
when the body is at rest.

> <<In a seizure, all of the muscles in your body are contracting at the
> same time.>>
>
> That sounds _painful_.

Yes, it does. Not to mention that, as the runner comments state, a seizure
is a sign of a severe neurological dysfunction - but I'll get to that in a
moment. I do need to correct something though. MBW puts the central nervous
system into a seizure, which as a side effect causes the "flopping fish"
effect in epileptics. Which is basically what MBW does, turn you into a
permanent Epileptic Seizure with a control mod. Evil, huh?

> If you say so:) If FASA says so, I guess it's canon, but that's why they
> make house rules. I really have no idea how well such an idea would or
> wouldn't necessarily work, though it sounds like the user would stand a
> good chance of overstressing a muscle or bone. My interpretation has been
> that it generally speeds up the processing of information in the brain,
> though that would probably require an expert system.

That's basically what FASA says in the write-up. It's also a VERY obvious
piece of cyber, especially once you see them moving.
As for overstress, there's only two archetypes of the five in Cybermancy
with MBW. One's got plastic bonelacing and MBW-2, and the other one has 2
cyberarms, two cyberlegs, a cybertorso, a cyberskull, and MBW-2. I couldn't
find a rule per se, but with the examples provided, and what the system does,
it makes for an eminently logical house rule.

> I'm not entirely sure, but I thought the Reaction enhancers simply filled
> in/sped up the reflex arcs? BTW, what side-effects (other than it can't
> be removed or shut off and has an unbelievable Essence cost) does MBW
> have?

No, that would be Synaptic Accelerators. Reaction Enhancer works by
replacing part of your spinal column with superconducting material, which is
why I thought of it for spinal column repair.
Ahh, MBW Side-effects. There's two: TLE-x(Temporal Lobe Epilepsy
w/complications) and CCSS(Catastrophic Clonic Seizure Syndrome). There's an
actual schedule for rolls to see if you get the side effects. Dice are
average of Body & Willpower(Max of +2 from cyber-enhancements for Body), and
as the rating of MBW goes up, so does the TN and frequency(MBW-4 is TN 6
every 3 months). The basics of TLE-x is reductions to social skills, and if
the character takes a moderate wound, they make a Willpower(6) roll. Failure
means they collapse into an epileptic seizure and then coma(for as long as 60
minutes) and take a 6M wound.
CCSS is even better. If it sets in you go into a permanent seizure, and need
to have the MBW system removed. You roll unaugmented Body(5) every hour until
it is removed - fail and die. Removal means at least 5 weeks intensive
care(50,000+ nuyen per week and "enough drugs to sink the Titanic" - direct
quote), and lots of rols by the doctor, TN 10 - Unaugmented Body. If he gets
0 successes during recovery, you live but have an intelligence and Willpower
of zero. Fun, huh?

> You could maybe rig through a heavily modified version of the current
> unit, though the rig would have to be setup to over-ride most of the
> normal reflexes without blocking out the involuntary processes (like
> heartbeat and respiration). It would wind up shutting off most of the
> normal interface between body and brain, which, I think, a normal VCR
> already does.

After reading the side effects, tell me if you still want to do this and we
can go private and number crunch. =)

> Might be, depending on what the side-effects are.

Like I said, they may find another way around. =)

> <<Reflex Trigger? (Just a thought. It should be modifiable to work with
> MBW)>>
>
> Probably similar. <g> I don't have the item descriptions on that, either.

Reflex Trigger costs an additional .2 Essence, and an additional 13,000
nuyen. It's an add-on for Wired Reflexes - the normal kind - that allows you
to turn on and off your wires. Requires a simple action to "flip the switch",
so to speak.


> <<Sure, if you want to allow the mods. What about essence mods?>>
>
> That would more or less be incorporated into it already. For instance, if
> you wanted a Level 1 MBW with the shut-off, you'd have a system with the
> Essence cost, price, etc of a Level 2 system.

Alright, I can see this. It's a wee bit harsh though, and you'd be better
suited spending the cash on standard Wired systems. Less Essence too. We can
work on this if you want to as well.

Wolfstar
Message no. 22
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 18:52:52 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-24 17:05:10 EDT, lobo1@****.COM (John E Pederson)
writes:

>
>
> BTW, here's a practical, non-munchie application of the MBW system (which
> could even rationalise its existence): run all the neural connections to
> the body through it instead of the spinal cord, bypassing places where
> the spinal cord has been severed/broken/etc. Such a character would be
> able to walk, even if paralyzed.
>
>
The idea is a good one, but it doesn't work quite that way. MBW, at least as
I have read it, creates an actual break in the individual's spinal cord,
which has this "junction box" attached to it that enhances/augments the
consciously controlled actions of the body. Because of the principle
severance, the mishaps occur. I know this is over simplified view, but it is
the principle idea....
-K
Message no. 23
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 18:57:17 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-24 17:34:07 EDT, W0lfstar@***.COM (George Metz)
writes:

>
> Actually, Irrelevant. As I stated elsewhere, the MPCP does all of the
work
> for you, you just tell it how to do the work. That's what response
increase
> is, not "speed of thought"....
>
> Wolfstar
>
I'm sorry to disagree, and I don't want this digressing into the "Speed of
Thought/Reflexive Augmentation" argument that broke out on rec.games earlier
this summer (that bored me bad). However; just what is the limit of
information that the mind can "consciously" react/respond to. I am not
talking about instinctive/impulse reactions. I am talking about "oops, he's
attacking me, I better do <insert action here>".

-K
Message no. 24
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:01:34 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-24 19:18:54 EDT, W0lfstar@***.COM (George Metz)
writes:

>
> Irrelevant. The drone is a much more versatile device, and a rigger's
> interface is much more complex than that of a decker's. From a game
> mechanics
> standpoint, the shots may be identical. From a universe-reality
standpoint,
> most likely the rigger because the drone can manuever, whereas the gunport
> cannot.
>
Very Relevant. I am not discussing versatility of a device, I am giving
examples according to the system that would more likely occur (drones for a
rigger, gun slave ports for a decker). I am asking which shot is better, not
which vehicle is better. It is, quite bluntly put, the way the damn system
is created. A loophole bigger than almost anything has been created with the
VR2.

-K
Message no. 25
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:42:17 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-26 20:58:58 EDT, you write:

> I'm sorry to disagree, and I don't want this digressing into the "Speed of
> Thought/Reflexive Augmentation" argument that broke out on rec.games
earlier
> this summer (that bored me bad). However; just what is the limit of
> information that the mind can "consciously" react/respond to. I am not
> talking about instinctive/impulse reactions. I am talking about "oops,
he's
> attacking me, I better do <insert action here>".

The way I read it, decking is purely a function of the higher mind and
technical instincts. Therefore, any "knee-jerk" reactions made are analyzed
and performed by your deck's processing power. It can react to go on the
attack or defensive from non-combat readiness as soon as you realize there's
a threat. Response increase is more a matter of how fast the processor brings
<insert program or slave device here> than how fast you react normally.

Wolfstar
Message no. 26
From: Ian White <dernhelm@*****.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 04:15:39 -0400
At 06:45 28/08/97 -0500, you wrote:
>The way I read it, decking is purely a function of the higher mind and
>technical instincts. Therefore, any "knee-jerk" reactions made are analyzed
>and performed by your deck's processing power. It can react to go on the
>attack or defensive from non-combat readiness as soon as you realize there's
>a threat. Response increase is more a matter of how fast the processor brings
><insert program or slave device here> than how fast you react normally.
>
>
This line of thought has got me thinking as to how much room in the brain
does a VCR and a datajack take up?
And what parts of the brain are removed, is it a part of your childhood
memories that are removed or what?
Room has to be made to fit this stuff in , so are the affects of removeing
these parts?
And are they compensated for? if so how?

Dernhelm

Caught and trapped like a fox in the forest
Or a murderer in prison.
Yet what crime had I committed?
To be human in this world?
Message no. 27
From: Edward Poe <hedley@********.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:47:43 -0500
> This line of thought has got me thinking as to how much room in the brain
> does a VCR and a datajack take up?
> And what parts of the brain are removed, is it a part of your childhood
> memories that are removed or what?

As I recall, a VCR is bodyware, therefore it isn't even in the subject's
head. The datajack and it's associated microtronics should be small enough
not to displace the brain at all and could be simply routed to the VCR's
circuitry. The VCR is described in SR2 as "neuro-enhancers and muscular
signal transference (MST) interfaces." I envision this sort of thing to
exist mostly along the subject's spinal column and perhaps along major
muscle groups. This would have the effect of intercepting the subject's
attempts to move and translate them into commands to move the vehicle.
Similar connections to the correct sensory nerves could be used to override
the subject's kinesthetic sense to complete the illusion that the vehicle
IS the rigger's body.

Just my 2¥ worth,

Edward Poe
Senior Systems Engineer, (read: "Corp Decker")
PC Net, Inc.
http://box.pcnetinc.com/hedley
Message no. 28
From: Michael Vander Donk <mdonk@******.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:38:37 +1000
Ian White[SMTP:dernhelm@*****.COM.AU] wrote:
> At 06:45 28/08/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >The way I read it, decking is purely a function of the higher mind and
> >technical instincts. Therefore, any "knee-jerk" reactions made are
analyzed
> >and performed by your deck's processing power. It can react to go on the
> >attack or defensive from non-combat readiness as soon as you realize
there's
> >a threat. Response increase is more a matter of how fast the processor
brings
> ><insert program or slave device here> than how fast you react normally.
> >
> >
> This line of thought has got me thinking as to how much room in the brain
> does a VCR and a datajack take up?
> And what parts of the brain are removed, is it a part of your childhood
> memories that are removed or what?
> Room has to be made to fit this stuff in , so are the affects of removeing
> these parts?
> And are they compensated for? if so how?
>
Um .. My understanding is that it takes up (virtually) no room... If you
look at the Pics for the datajack and all the decker mods, they are all
placed on the skull... The only thing that replaces the brain is the
wires/connections that link the datajack to the conciousness....
The VCR is a little more chunky (thus the 3 essence loss). I still dont
see this replacing anything in the brain, but linking to more. (a decker
only percevies the surroundings, a rigger feels the car....)

I recall the intro story in SRI, the main character brushed past a
female rigger that did not notice the touch. Thanks to the VCR
overriding her normal senses ...

I have the impression that the VCR links into the base of the brain,
then runs along normal neural pathways... (it needs to override, or at
least dampen normal sences..... )

Anyone else have ideas??

Michael...

--
What's the difference between a duck? One of it's legs are both the
same.
LSD melts in your mind, not in your hand.
Message no. 29
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:27:37 GMT
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:47:43 -0500, Edward Poe wrote:

> > This line of thought has got me thinking as to how much room in the brain
> > does a VCR and a datajack take up?
> > And what parts of the brain are removed, is it a part of your childhood
> > memories that are removed or what?
>
> As I recall, a VCR is bodyware, therefore it isn't even in the subject's
> head. The datajack and it's associated microtronics should be small enough
> not to displace the brain at all and could be simply routed to the VCR's
> circuitry. The VCR is described in SR2 as "neuro-enhancers and muscular
> signal transference (MST) interfaces." I envision this sort of thing to
> exist mostly along the subject's spinal column and perhaps along major
> muscle groups. This would have the effect of intercepting the subject's
> attempts to move and translate them into commands to move the vehicle.

This is one thing with VCRs that I still have a problem with.
Wouldn't it be simpler and more efficient to tap into these signals
directly at the brain stem, rather than have the signal travel all the
way to an extremity and then have sensors pick up that signal and send
it to the vehicle, drone, etc.? Other cyberware manages to do this.
The reduced "intrusiveness" of the cyberware would translate into
lower Essence Ratings. Perhaps they did it purely for play balance?

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."
Message no. 30
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:37:52 EDT
On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:27:37 GMT James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.ca>
writes:

>This is one thing with VCRs that I still have a problem with.
>Wouldn't it be simpler and more efficient to tap into these signals
>directly at the brain stem, rather than have the signal travel all the
>way to an extremity and then have sensors pick up that signal and send
>it to the vehicle, drone, etc.? Other cyberware manages to do this.
>The reduced "intrusiveness" of the cyberware would translate into
>lower Essence Ratings. Perhaps they did it purely for play balance?


One could assume that the VCR is a rather old piece of tech, all things
considered. A bit like Wired Reflexes: it's been around quite some time
without any *real* improvements to its performance (I mean, look at MBW!
Higher Essence cost, and *huge* drawbacks!). So the reason that the VCR
hasn't been superseded by something that taps directly into the brain
stem is that it requires a) lots of neuro-somatic knowledge (you've got
to know, quite intimately, which impulse goes where and does what) and b)
a fairly advanced computer to process the info it would receive. You know
what you have when you do that? That's right: Drive-By-Wire <EGMG> or
something rather close to it (we've already had this argument, Wolfstar,
no need to repeat it:).



/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 31
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:04:06 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-28 04:19:29 EDT, dernhelm@*****.COM.AU writes:

> This line of thought has got me thinking as to how much room in the brain
> does a VCR and a datajack take up?
> And what parts of the brain are removed, is it a part of your childhood
> memories that are removed or what?
> Room has to be made to fit this stuff in , so are the affects of removeing
> these parts?
> And are they compensated for? if so how?
>
No offense, but it sounds like someone seen Johnny Mnemonic a few too many
times. There is no limit, per se, to the brain space, SR just uses essence
loss for most of those things. I have noticed that anything that directly
augments "speed" in SR, regardless of speed of what, has a higher essence
loss. Sounds like more of the game balance effort than the game mechanics
effort.
-K
Message no. 32
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:36:05 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-30 06:30:46 EDT, you write:

> > Irrelevant. The drone is a much more versatile device, and a rigger's
> > interface is much more complex than that of a decker's. From a game
> > mechanics standpoint, the shots may be identical. From a
universe-reality
> > most likely the rigger because the drone can manuever, whereas the
gunport
> > cannot.
> >
> Very Relevant. I am not discussing versatility of a device, I am giving
> examples according to the system that would more likely occur (drones for
a
> rigger, gun slave ports for a decker). I am asking which shot is better,
not
> which vehicle is better. It is, quite bluntly put, the way the damn
system
> is created. A loophole bigger than almost anything has been created with
the
> VR2.

I'm not following you here. I fail to see a major loophole in the VR2 rules,
at least not one as big as you're talking about. And after thinking about it,
probably the drone would have the better shot, simply because of the sensor
ratings. If you mean by loophole that deckers don't need cyber for a reaction
enhancement, that's already been hashed out.

Wolfstar
Message no. 33
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:37:17 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-30 21:31:16 EDT, you write:

> One could assume that the VCR is a rather old piece of tech, all things
> considered. A bit like Wired Reflexes: it's been around quite some time
> without any *real* improvements to its performance (I mean, look at MBW!
> Higher Essence cost, and *huge* drawbacks!). So the reason that the VCR
> hasn't been superseded by something that taps directly into the brain
> stem is that it requires a) lots of neuro-somatic knowledge (you've got
> to know, quite intimately, which impulse goes where and does what) and b)
> a fairly advanced computer to process the info it would receive. You know
> what you have when you do that? That's right: Drive-By-Wire <EGMG> or
> something rather close to it (we've already had this argument, Wolfstar,
> no need to repeat it:).

<Throws shotgun down in a temper-tantrum> DAMMIT!! Just when I was getting
all fired up too! =)
Seriously, though, a system could be devised from MBW that would do the same
job as a VCR and be significantly less intrusive than either, but it
certainly wouldn't provide the bonuses that MBW does. And actually,
Rig-By-Wire would be better, Drive-By-Wire is Integrated Controls. =) I'd say
I'd develop something, but I'll wait a few days until I get my grubby little
hands on RBB2 to see if there's a SOTA/Tech update.
Oh, this just occured to me. Under Reaction Enhancer in Cybertechnology, it
says, "The reaction enhancer is completely compatible with all other
reaction/Initiative boosters except the move-by-wire system and the adrenal
pump." Does anyone know whether or not this includes VCRs? (Imagine it,
VCR-3, Reaction Enhancer-6, Intelligence and Quickness 6, and suddenly you
have a control pool of 18, and a reaction of 18+4D6. 'Course, it'd require at
least Alpha and you'd only have .56 Essence left, but....)

Wolfstar
Message no. 34
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:52:32 -0500
At 03-Sep-97 wrote George Metz:


> Oh, this just occured to me. Under Reaction Enhancer in Cybertechnology, it
>says, "The reaction enhancer is completely compatible with all other
>reaction/Initiative boosters except the move-by-wire system and the adrenal
>pump." Does anyone know whether or not this includes VCRs? (Imagine it,
>VCR-3, Reaction Enhancer-6, Intelligence and Quickness 6, and suddenly you
>have a control pool of 18, and a reaction of 18+4D6. 'Course, it'd require at
>least Alpha and you'd only have .56 Essence left, but....)

Official? i don`t know, but we use it so, it helps the riggers. They seems for
me
a bit forgotten by the whole sota stuff, this will keep them a bit up to date.

--
Barbie


One lived hour is still living.
Message no. 35
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:04:17 +0100
Not George Metz said on 13:37/ 3 Sep 97...

> > (I mean, look at MBW! Higher Essence cost, and *huge* drawbacks!).

You have to remember this is from a FASA book. They have a habit of
balancing things too far, IMO, even if it means introducing drawbacks that
don't make sense at all IRL (a few good examples are in Maximum Tech, for
BattleTech, like the armor-piercing autocannon ammo, but in numerous
other books as well).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well, I have no opinion about that, and I have no opinion about me...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 36
From: John E Pederson <john.e.pederson@***********.EDU>
Subject: Re: VCRs, Response Increase and Wired Reflexes
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:20:55 -0500
Gurth wrote:
>
> Not George Metz said on 13:37/ 3 Sep 97...
>
> > > (I mean, look at MBW! Higher Essence cost, and *huge* drawbacks!).
>
> You have to remember this is from a FASA book. They have a habit of
> balancing things too far, IMO, even if it means introducing drawbacks that
> don't make sense at all IRL (a few good examples are in Maximum Tech, for
> BattleTech, like the armor-piercing autocannon ammo, but in numerous
> other books as well).

Didn't see that one (I've previously mentioned that I don't have
anything for Battletech aside from a now out of date compendium:), and I
don't entirely agree with the way MBW is setup from a physiological
standpoint, but I don't know jack anything about biomechanics or DNI, so
my opinion probably doesn't have much validity:)

Canthros

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