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From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:15:22 -0400

Message no. 1 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:27 PM 9/28/98 -0700, Max wrote:
>>The menu for THE Sports
>>Bar includes "burgers, dogs, wings and nachos." I'll grant you that
>>those are probably soy-burgers, soy-dogs, and soy based Buffalo
Wings,
>>but they are most definately intended to resemble meat.

>A lot of elves will have grown up with people coming up with non-meat
>versions of burgers, dogs, wings, and nachos for them when it turned
>out they couldn't handle the real thing, and could very well have a
>cultural preference for them. I'd say that entry is inconclusive.

I suppose it's a matter of when nutrisoy became the staple food for
the majority of the populace. Back during the first waves of UGE in
2011, the world was only in the first years of the resource rush.
Native Americans hadn't taken over the bulk of North America yet. I
would expect that the price of natural foods, including real meat,
hadn't skyrocketed yet when the first generation of elves were
starting on solid foods.

If we assume that elven vegetarianism has a biological basis, then
it's clear that the parents of the first elves would have faced a
quandry when they found out that their toddlers couldn't digest meat
protein. Are you honestly suggesting that these parents would have
come up with vegtable based foods that were made look and taste like
actual meat prodcuts, instead of adopting some of the more traditonal
vegetarian diets for their pointy-eared children?

If a parent knows that their child will be stuck with a dietary
restriction for the rest of their life, wouldn't it make sense to
steer the child away from the taste of what they can't eat, instead of
getting them used to the taste? Even if parents did raise their young
elven children on meat-like substitutes, there's always the risk that
the child might someday think they can try the real thing, only to
find that they can't digest it. I don't think many parents would want
to take that risk.

And if such an accident does occur, where someone eats something their
system can't handle, often times, all it takes is one lone incident to
turn that person away from that type of food for a long while. People
are very prone to classical conditioning when it comes to matters of
food and digestion.

If elven vegetarianism is biological, I really can not see where they
would have "grown up with" burgers, hot dogs, and chicken (or even
sushi), even with the advent of nutrisoy in the later years.

I think elven vegetarianism is merely a cultural trait, tied in with
the New-Agey, Back to Nature trends in elven culture. This was, just
as was suggested in the BBB2, mistaken for a biological trait by the
scientists who authored the racial descriptions.

Is there any other place in SR cannon, other than these reports with
their disclaimer suggesting bias, that suggests that elves are
vegetarian specifically because of biology? If not, then I'm going to
go with the evidence I've found in Tir Tairngire (one of two SR
sourcebooks specifically about elves).

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
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From:	Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:52:08 -0700

Message no. 2 Paul Gettle wrote:

> Is there any other place in SR cannon, other than these reports with
> their disclaimer suggesting bias, that suggests that elves are
> vegetarian specifically because of biology? If not, then I'm going to
> go with the evidence I've found in Tir Tairngire (one of two SR
> sourcebooks specifically about elves).

Then there's Harlequin's meat lover pizza in _Wyrm_Talk_. :-) I know it
*might* be soy, but it's not described as soy.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"Don't look now, but I think there's
Madelynne (Malkavian) | an elder god in your beer."
Sif Stormbringer (Get)| -- Blackfeather, _The Winnowing_

From:	Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:52:27 -0700

Message no. 3 At 23:15 9/28/98 -0400, Paul Gettle wrote:
>If we assume that elven vegetarianism has a biological basis, then
>it's clear that the parents of the first elves would have faced a
>quandry when they found out that their toddlers couldn't digest meat
>protein. Are you honestly suggesting that these parents would have
>come up with vegtable based foods that were made look and taste like
>actual meat prodcuts, instead of adopting some of the more traditonal
>vegetarian diets for their pointy-eared children?

I'm not suggesting that it's necessarily going to *taste* the same,
but that the concepts of burgers, dogs, wings, and nachos can be
implemented using vegetarian materials. Certainly there's a huge
market for "garden burgers" in the modern era; elves would just
make it boom. And I *definitely* think you're overestimating the
thoughtfulness and sensibility of most parents. :-)

>If elven vegetarianism is biological, I really can not see where they
>would have "grown up with" burgers, hot dogs, and chicken (or even
>sushi), even with the advent of nutrisoy in the later years.

Hell, kids *today* grow up with garden burgers, and you don't need
meat to make nachos. I just found a vegetarian hot dog on a
menu when I hit AltaVista for +vegetarian +"hot dog", so they're
obviously not a foreign concept. (There was even one non-spurious hit on
"vegetarian buffalo wings", but that was a guy who wants to invent
them.) So if you have kids who can't eat meat, and these are the sorts
of things that you like to eat, culturally, it makes perfect sense to me
that a parent would say "Well, I like hot dogs, and my kid can only eat
veggies, so we'll get veggie hot dogs to serve over at Little League
for the elven kids." Twenty years later, you have elves with a fondness
for veggie burgers and dogs, and a flourishing market in them.

>I think elven vegetarianism is merely a cultural trait, tied in with
>the New-Agey, Back to Nature trends in elven culture. This was, just
>as was suggested in the BBB2, mistaken for a biological trait by the
>scientists who authored the racial descriptions.

I doubt that elven vegetarianism would be so common if there were no
biological basis for it. Sure, some elves might get into the whole
"purity of essence" thing, but if elves could eat meat, most of them
would be raised by humans to eat meat, and would carry those
cultural expectations with them into adulthood. I have great difficulty
believing that so many elves-- just because they're elves-- would choose
to become vegetarians so as to create the impression that all elves are
vegetarians.

>Is there any other place in SR cannon, other than these reports with
>their disclaimer suggesting bias, that suggests that elves are
>vegetarian specifically because of biology? If not, then I'm going to
>go with the evidence I've found in Tir Tairngire (one of two SR
>sourcebooks specifically about elves).

Since there's no place in the SR canon that explicitly calls out elves
as meat eaters, I'm going to go with the evidence I've found in the
Big Black Book. Fortunately, we run in different campaigns... :-)

For what it's worth, I can't find a mention of elven vegetarianism in
the Earthdawn material I have.

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%

From:	Joshua Mumme <grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:23:50 -0500

Message no. 4 <Snip argument>
>I'm not suggesting that it's necessarily going to *taste* the same,
>but that the concepts of burgers, dogs, wings, and nachos can be
>implemented using vegetarian materials. Certainly there's a huge
>market for "garden burgers" in the modern era; elves would just
>make it boom. And I *definitely* think you're overestimating the
>thoughtfulness and sensibility of most parents. :-)

<Snip rest of argument.>

Did anyone else catch this. Vegetarians can't eat Nacho's? hehe sorry but
you gotta admit if ya can't eat corn based foods you are pretty screwed.
Damit Harley No more fried mushrooms for you dude!

From:	Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:32:06 -0700

Message no. 5 At 00:23 9/29/98 -0500, Joshua Mumme wrote:
><Snip argument>
>>I'm not suggesting that it's necessarily going to *taste* the same,
>>but that the concepts of burgers, dogs, wings, and nachos can be
>>implemented using vegetarian materials. Certainly there's a huge
>>market for "garden burgers" in the modern era; elves would just
>>make it boom. And I *definitely* think you're overestimating the
>>thoughtfulness and sensibility of most parents. :-)

><Snip rest of argument.>
>
>Did anyone else catch this. Vegetarians can't eat Nacho's? hehe sorry but
>you gotta admit if ya can't eat corn based foods you are pretty screwed.
>Damit Harley No more fried mushrooms for you dude!

Huh? I don't know what "nachos" means wherever you live, but
over here in California it usually refers to tortilla chips with
a heterogeneous dip that involves beans, guacamole, lettuce, meat,
salsa, sour cream, molten cheese, and jalapeno peppers. Making
vegetarian nachos is trivial, as you just leave out the meat.
Where did I imply that vegetarians couldn't eat corn-based foods?
For that matter, why does the inability to eat corn-based foods
eliminate fried mushrooms? You just fry them in a different oil...

A friend of my girlfriend actually has a very interesting allergy to
wheat and corn: they get him stoned. He only figured it out after
he got into an auto accident and they thought he was DUI even though
he hadn't had anything to put him "under the influence". When he
knows someone is available to drive him home, he'll often have a bag
of corn chips at a party and get very mellow...

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%

From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:47:52 -0500

Message no. 6 On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:32:06 -0700 Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
writes:
>At 00:23 9/29/98 -0500, Joshua Mumme wrote:
>><Snip argument>
>>>I'm not suggesting that it's necessarily going to *taste* the same,
>>>but that the concepts of burgers, dogs, wings, and nachos can be
>>>implemented using vegetarian materials.
<SNIP>

>>Did anyone else catch this. Vegetarians can't eat Nacho's? hehe
sorry but
>>you gotta admit if ya can't eat corn based foods you are pretty
screwed.
>>Damit Harley No more fried mushrooms for you dude!

>Huh? I don't know what "nachos" means wherever you live, but
>over here in California it usually refers to tortilla chips with
>a heterogeneous dip that involves beans, guacamole, lettuce, meat,
>salsa, sour cream, molten cheese, and jalapeno peppers. Making
>vegetarian nachos is trivial, as you just leave out the meat.
>Where did I imply that vegetarians couldn't eat corn-based foods?
>For that matter, why does the inability to eat corn-based foods
>eliminate fried mushrooms? You just fry them in a different oil...
<SNIP>

Uhm... Nachos are the chips themselves and they are usually served with
dip ... Nachos with no dip are still nachos. THAT is where you implied
that vegetarians couldn't eat corn based foods. In Joshua's reply, I
think the mention of fried mushrooms was meant to reflect cooking them in
corn oil (I can't remeber if there is another vegetible based oil ...)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."
--T-Bone(?)

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From:	"Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:07:59 +1000

Message no. 7 <Paul Gettle>
> >I think elven vegetarianism is merely a cultural trait, tied in with
> >the New-Agey, Back to Nature trends in elven culture. This was, just
> >as was suggested in the BBB2, mistaken for a biological trait by the
> >scientists who authored the racial descriptions.
>
<Max Rible>
> I doubt that elven vegetarianism would be so common if there were no
> biological basis for it. Sure, some elves might get into the whole
> "purity of essence" thing, but if elves could eat meat, most of them
> would be raised by humans to eat meat, and would carry those
> cultural expectations with them into adulthood. I have great
> difficulty
> believing that so many elves-- just because they're elves-- would
> choose
> to become vegetarians so as to create the impression that all elves
> are
> vegetarians.
>
<Lots of snips>

Okay, guys, why don't you try this one on for size. Most elves eat
vegetables because they TASTE BETTER to them. Nothing biological apart
from a slight difference in taste buds. Then you have the minority of
elves who like meat just as much or even better. No moral issues, no
"can't eat meat, wait, what about that elf scarfing into the pizza?"
concerns - just a matter of a personal preference which is actually
quite common within the race. Think the Australian (or younger
generations') penchant for junk food of all sorts, or the South and SE
Asian tendency towards foods that ignite you at both ends or the English
liking for just plain weird food.

Those researchers in SRII just never ran into elves who like meat or
discounted the few that did as aberrations.

Hell, I can give you another real-life example - me. I REALLY love meat
- and I REALLY despise most vegetables. That's not because I'm a
proteinarian (new word! cool!) or because I biologically can't deal with
vegetables (although I DO claim that I have a rare condition which
causes all vegetables to be poisonous to me :) ), but I just like meat
better. (On the other hand, certain fruits would have to be my favourite
desserts/snacks/'junk food' - but I digress.)

What do you think of that hypothesis?

*Doc' delicately nibbles at an onion, gasps, seizes his chest and
collapses in a lifeless heap.*

Doc'

.sig Sauer

From:	Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Tue, 29 Sep 1998 02:35:40 EDT

Message no. 8 In a message dated 98-09-29 01:33:56 EDT, you write:

<< Huh? I don't know what "nachos" means wherever you live, but
over here in California it usually refers to tortilla chips with
a heterogeneous dip that involves beans, guacamole, lettuce, meat,
salsa, sour cream, molten cheese, and jalapeno peppers. Making
vegetarian nachos is trivial, as you just leave out the meat. >>

Your basic nacho is corn chips, cheese, and jalapeno peppers. Granted, us
californians are a bit more civilized because we like nacho's the way they are
described above, but the fact remains that nacho's are inhernetly vegetarian.

From:	"XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Tue, 29 Sep 1998 02:46:49 -0500

Message no. 9 > Your basic nacho is corn chips, cheese, and jalapeno peppers. Granted, us
> californians are a bit more civilized because we like nacho's the
> way they are
> described above, but the fact remains that nacho's are inhernetly
> vegetarian.

Not necessarily 'inherently' vegetarian. The cheese is a product of animals.
Isn't there a type of vegetarian called lacto-ovo-vegetarian, or something?
Oh, and by the way, it's not just californians who like nachos as described
previously.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:07:46 -0400

Message no. 10 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:52 PM 9/28/98 -0700, Max wrote:
>And I *definitely* think you're overestimating the
>thoughtfulness and sensibility of most parents. :-)

I'm only going by what I've seen of parents today who have to raise
children on restricted diets (i.e.: those children with lactose
intolerance or food alergies).

>and you don't need
>meat to make nachos.

I've never claimed that nachos need meat. I merely included nachos on
that list so I could have a complete quote. If you go back to my
original post, you'll notice that I only focus on the three meat
products (allowing for the fact that most "meat" in Shadowrun is
nutrisoy based). I can't believe a whole "Are Nachos a Vegetarian
Food" thread spawned from this. Sheesh. :)

>I doubt that elven vegetarianism would be so common if there were no
>biological basis for it. Sure, some elves might get into the whole
>"purity of essence" thing, but if elves could eat meat, most of them
>would be raised by humans to eat meat, and would carry those
>cultural expectations with them into adulthood. I have great
difficulty
>believing that so many elves-- just because they're elves-- would
choose
>to become vegetarians so as to create the impression that all elves
are
>vegetarians.

It wouldn't have to be every elf, or even a majority of them. It only
takes a small percentage of elves, especially if that percentage is
highly visible about it, for a stereotype to be formed. Then, once the
stereotype exists, if it is reinforced by culturally biased
"scientific" studies and reports, then people automatically start
treating it like it's a fact.

Wouldn't such a stereotype evaporate though, when the people who
believe in it eventually come across evidence to the contrary, say, an
elf from the larger but quieter percentage of the elven population
that do have a taste for meat, despite what the racist studies would
have you believe?

Not really, when you consider that the majority of the population eats
nutrisoy-based foods for the majority of their diet. Sure that elf
might be eating a triple cheeseburger, but it's all soy based anyway.
People will automatically asume that the elf isn't really breaking a
vegetarian diet.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:07:46 -0400

Message no. 11 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:07 PM 9/29/98 +1000, you wrote:
>Okay, guys, why don't you try this one on for size. Most elves eat
>vegetables because they TASTE BETTER to them. Nothing biological
apart
>from a slight difference in taste buds. Then you have the minority of
>elves who like meat just as much or even better.

This, I could see.

>Those researchers in SRII just never ran into elves who like meat or
>discounted the few that did as aberrations.

I find it very interesting that when FASA wrote up their disclaimer in
the BBB2, they went out of their way to point out that the researchers
were from deep in the heart of the Confederate American States.
Usually, it's inconsequential whether the researchers call Seattle or
Atlanta their home.

>Hell, I can give you another real-life example - me. I REALLY love
meat
>- and I REALLY despise most vegetables. That's not because I'm a
>proteinarian (new word! cool!)

Try carnivore. It just sounds cooler, and drives the point home
better. (after all, several vegtables are rich in protein.)

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:22:28 -0400

Message no. 12 One thing to keep in mind with this discussion of vegetarianism is that it
that after a few months or so on a vegetarian or vegan diet, even the smell
of meat becomes repellent.

I've got a decided preference for eating the flesh of dead animals, but
I've known (mainly back in college, but some recently also) that are some
variation of vegetarian. One guy in particular did that as a diet for a
few months (for some long forgotten reason). As a reward to himself for
keeping so rigidly to his diet the entire duration, he went to a steakhouse
and was going to treat himself to a massive steak.

He vomited. His mind and his body had become so accustomed to a lack of
meat that he had simply lost his desire for it, that it had become
repellent to him. A really strong BBQ smell, something I love, made him
feel ill.

I've known a number of women with this same problem. They can bring
themselves to eat fish and chicken on occassion (much less of a smell), but
beef is out of the question.

So it's entirely possible that at some point, vegetarianism either become
popular amongst elves or there was the mistaken belief that they were
naturally supposed to be vegetarians. Keep this fad or this belief for
more than a few months, and you won't find 90% of those elves chowing down
on a juicy double-decker hamburger the following year.

Then what happens when these ersatz vegetarians have kids? They're going
to feed their children the same sorts of food they eat, which is some
variation on a vegetarian diet.

So while the vegetarian diet may be, strictly speaking, a cultural thing
(with perhaps an erroneous cause) for the large majority of elves, it has
become a de facto part of their mindset, their biology, their culture.

That's how I see things. Yes, the elves can eat meat. But the majority of
them, having lived as vegetarians for years if not decades, are going to
find meat repellent and extremely distateful.

Erik J.

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

From:	Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:39:07 -0500

Message no. 13 D. Ghost wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:32:06 -0700 Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
> writes:
> >At 00:23 9/29/98 -0500, Joshua Mumme wrote:
> >><Snip argument>
> >>>I'm not suggesting that it's necessarily going to *taste* the same,
> >>>but that the concepts of burgers, dogs, wings, and nachos can be
> >>>implemented using vegetarian materials.
> <SNIP>
>
> >>Did anyone else catch this. Vegetarians can't eat Nacho's? hehe
> sorry but
> >>you gotta admit if ya can't eat corn based foods you are pretty
> screwed.
> >>Damit Harley No more fried mushrooms for you dude!
>
> >Huh? I don't know what "nachos" means wherever you live, but
> >over here in California it usually refers to tortilla chips with
> >a heterogeneous dip that involves beans, guacamole, lettuce, meat,
> >salsa, sour cream, molten cheese, and jalapeno peppers. Making
> >vegetarian nachos is trivial, as you just leave out the meat.
> >Where did I imply that vegetarians couldn't eat corn-based foods?
> >For that matter, why does the inability to eat corn-based foods
> >eliminate fried mushrooms? You just fry them in a different oil...
> <SNIP>
>
> Uhm... Nachos are the chips themselves and they are usually served with
> dip ... Nachos with no dip are still nachos. THAT is where you implied
> that vegetarians couldn't eat corn based foods. In Joshua's reply, I
> think the mention of fried mushrooms was meant to reflect cooking them in
> corn oil (I can't remeber if there is another vegetible based oil ...)

<Snip of end of what you were sayin.>

Ehh I was talking about the flower but that isn't corn based or is it I don't
remember it was a mistake but the Nacho thing it was a joke Not meant to
offend or anything.

Grimlakin

From:	Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:51:00 -0500

Message no. 14 XaOs [David Goth] wrote:

> > Your basic nacho is corn chips, cheese, and jalapeno peppers. Granted, us
> > californians are a bit more civilized because we like nacho's the
> > way they are
> > described above, but the fact remains that nacho's are inhernetly
> > vegetarian.
>
> Not necessarily 'inherently' vegetarian. The cheese is a product of animals.
> Isn't there a type of vegetarian called lacto-ovo-vegetarian, or something?
> Oh, and by the way, it's not just californians who like nachos as described
> previously.
>
> -XaOs-
> xaos@*****.net
> -David Goth-

Woohoo I feel so special I have caused a roundtable on the intracacies of the
Nacho. Allmost as good as my cloneing debate last night in the #shadowrun
channel.

Grimlakin

From:	Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vegetarian Elves
Date:	Tue, 29 Sep 1998 18:22:31 EDT

Message no. 15 In a message dated 98-09-29 16:52:36 EDT, you write:

<<
Woohoo I feel so special I have caused a roundtable on the intracacies of
the
Nacho. Allmost as good as my cloneing debate last night in the #shadowrun
channel.

Grimlakin
>>
And a nice dogie biscut for you, Grimmy. However, I think we'd beter drop
this before grid sec decides to unload their Carp-FOBS (Fractional Orbit
Bombardment System) on us.....

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