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Message no. 1
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Vegetarian Elves [was re: Queen Alachia]
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:37:34 -0700
At 02:33 9/28/98 -0700, Marizhavashti Kali wrote:
>Max Rible wrote:
>> Because there's a rather good fossil record tracing the evolution
>> of humanity, and there's an amazing lack of people with tusks or
>> other metahuman features. Elves in particular I don't believe
>> evolved, because they're obligate vegetarians, which requires them
>> to be post-Neolithic Revolution, which occurred about 10000 BC.

>While I agree with most of your post, I've found nothing to suggest to me
>that elves really are "obligate vegetarians." Certainly, there is the
>reference in SR1 and 2, but SR3 seems to take a slightly different tack.

It's stated pretty clearly in the section on Elves in SR2 that they
are vegetarians-- not herbivores, not omnivores, but vegetarians.
Of course, that portion of the entry on Elves seems to be one of the
least-read sections of SR2, right along with the bit on what happens
when metahumans interbreed, judging from what I've seen on the Net.
I don't recall SR3 mentioning anything one way or the other.

Anyone have an SR2 handy to quote from? I'm at work right now...

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 2
From: 00DNA <mcmanus@******.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vegetarian Elves [was re: Queen Alachia]
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:16:05 -0400
At 11:37 AM 9/28/98 -0700, Max Rible wrote:

>It's stated pretty clearly in the section on Elves in SR2 that they
>are vegetarians-- not herbivores, not omnivores, but vegetarians.
>Of course, that portion of the entry on Elves seems to be one of the
>least-read sections of SR2, right along with the bit on what happens
>when metahumans interbreed, judging from what I've seen on the Net.
>I don't recall SR3 mentioning anything one way or the other.

True, in SR2 it does say elves are vegetarians, and it also says that they
are nocturnal...and you can read PLENTY of places where there are elves
walking around during the day. (:
Though I've read it and my players have too, I've always disregarded it. I
play that elves have a tendancy for vegetarianism, but they don't have to
be...and being nocturnal...I just skip that altogether. So i was happy
when SR3 did not state certain meta types behave certain ways. And they
did answer the question as to whether races can interbreed, yes they
can...and you'll get either parent type a or b.


--00DNA
<<Replication Terminated>>
Message no. 3
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Vegetarian Elves [was re: Queen Alachia]
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 16:11:52 -0400
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At 03:16 PM 9/28/98 -0400, 00DNA wrote:
>>It's stated pretty clearly in the section on Elves in SR2 that they
>>are vegetarians-- not herbivores, not omnivores, but vegetarians.

>True, in SR2 it does say elves are vegetarians, and it also says that
they
>are nocturnal...and you can read PLENTY of places where there are
elves
>walking around during the day. (:

And anyway it's almost a moot point. After all, the food in Shadowrun
is all soy and artificial flavor, unless your rich enough for the real
stuff.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 4
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Vegetarian Elves [was re: Queen Alachia]
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:51:32 -0700
Max Rible wrote:
>
> >While I agree with most of your post, I've found nothing to suggest to me
> >that elves really are "obligate vegetarians." Certainly, there is the
> >reference in SR1 and 2, but SR3 seems to take a slightly different tack.
>
> It's stated pretty clearly in the section on Elves in SR2 that they
> are vegetarians-- not herbivores, not omnivores, but vegetarians.
> Of course, that portion of the entry on Elves seems to be one of the
> least-read sections of SR2, right along with the bit on what happens
> when metahumans interbreed, judging from what I've seen on the Net.
> I don't recall SR3 mentioning anything one way or the other.

SR3 says that the researchers tend to pin stereotypes on the
metahumans...and the elf writing says something about how irritated she is
getting served wilted lettuce so "no meat will soil her lips." I know the
quite in SR1 and 2. I even directly referenced it (without quoting it) in
my message to state that I find the quotes a bit fallacious...

> Anyone have an SR2 handy to quote from? I'm at work right now...
>
> --
> %% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
> %% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick
%%

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"Don't look now, but I think there's
Madelynne (Malkavian) | an elder god in your beer."
Sif Stormbringer (Get)| -- Blackfeather, _The Winnowing_
Message no. 5
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Vegetarian Elves [was re: Queen Alachia]
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:43:07 -0700
At 15:16 9/28/98 -0400, 00DNA wrote:
>True, in SR2 it does say elves are vegetarians, and it also says that they
>are nocturnal...and you can read PLENTY of places where there are elves
>walking around during the day. (:

Yeah, and humans are diurnal, and you can read PLENTY of places where there
are humans walking around during the night. Your point? :-)

>Though I've read it and my players have too, I've always disregarded it. I
>play that elves have a tendancy for vegetarianism, but they don't have to
>be...and being nocturnal...I just skip that altogether. So i was happy
>when SR3 did not state certain meta types behave certain ways.

I checked SR3 when I went home for lunch, and they do make reference
to the vegetarianism with the bit about "bring the poor little pixie some
wilted lettuce lest she soil her lips with meat" or something.

For my campaign, I'm sticking with elves being unable to eat meat
unless they get a bioware implant that provides the right digestive
enzymes. Elves are already ubermenschen-- they're as good or better
than humans in all ways, save for experiencing anti-metahuman racism--
so I like to leave them with *something* that the other metas can do
that Elves can't. (This allows plenty of people with the money to
spend on non-soy foods opportunity to slot off elves by munching on
big vatbeef burgers in front of them... since they can't eat meat,
they should be wired to actually dislike the odor of cooking meat...)

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 6
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Vegetarian Elves [was re: Queen Alachia]
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:13:59 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-28 14:42:37 EDT, you write:

<< It's stated pretty clearly in the section on Elves in SR2 that they
are vegetarians-- not herbivores, not omnivores, but vegetarians.
Of course, that portion of the entry on Elves seems to be one of the
least-read sections of SR2, right along with the bit on what happens
when metahumans interbreed, judging from what I've seen on the Net.
I don't recall SR3 mentioning anything one way or the other.

Anyone have an SR2 handy to quote from? I'm at work right now... >>

Ask, and ye shall recieve: (Btw: all emphasis is the on the part of Me)

SR2: Pg 36, Colum 2: "Habits: Elves are NOCTURNAL beings. (Forgotten point
number one) Thier diet is Vegetarian. (Nuff said) They tend to live in
small groups, preferably removed from the rest of humanity. The elf life-
expectancy is UNVERIFIED, with POSSIBLE life-spans of several hundred years.
but metabolic studies are INCONCLUSIVE. The Elven breeding season is
unrestricted. Gestation period is 360 days" Hmm. Seems pretty clear about
their not eating meat. Of course, with so much food being flavored yeast
anyway, does it matter?

On Interbreeding: SR2, PG 34 Para 3: "Elves and Dwarves are nearly always
born to parents of the same race. Elves beget elves, Dwarves beget dwarves,
and so on. In the instances of attempts at natural crossbreeding the child is
always of the same race as either the elf or dwarf parent. NO TRUE
HALF_BREEDS OR CROSSBREEDS ARE _KNOWN_ TO EXIST. By 2050 dual human parentage
almost never results in elf or dwarf offspring.

The same holds true of orks and trolls, who are nearly always born to parents
of the same race. Unlike the early days of goblinization, it is now rare for
a human child (dual human parentage) to express into ork or troll form, but it
DOES occur. CROSSBREED ATTEMPTS BETWEEN THE ELF/DWARF GROUP AND THE ORK/TROLL
GROUP NEARLY ALWAYS RESULT IN A GOBLINIZED EXPRESSION."

Kind of sounds to me like that means just what it says... the child is born
appearing to be human normalis, until puberty, when they goblinize, probobly
into ork/troll, depending on the parent, I bet.
Message no. 7
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Vegetarian Elves [was re: Queen Alachia]
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:03:36 -0400
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At 06:13 PM 9/28/98 -0400, Micheal wrote:
>SR2: Pg 36, Colum 2: "Habits: Elves are NOCTURNAL beings. (Forgotten
point
>number one) Thier diet is Vegetarian. (Nuff said) They tend to
live in
>small groups, preferably removed from the rest of humanity. The elf
life-
>expectancy is UNVERIFIED, with POSSIBLE life-spans of several hundred
years.
>but metabolic studies are INCONCLUSIVE. The Elven breeding season is
>unrestricted. Gestation period is 360 days" Hmm. Seems pretty clear
about
>their not eating meat.

As a counter to those who thump this page soundly, and say "Didn't you
read this section?" I would like to call everyone's attention to the
disclaimer that preceedes the racial descriptions.

BBB2: p. 34:
"The following information is available courtesy of Studies in
Awakened Biology, by Doctors Eileen Van Buren and Peter Carmine,
published in 2048 by Modern Information Services, Atlanta (CAS). The
biases are the authors' own, in particular, their view of Homo sapiens
more as interesting creatures than sentient beings. The authors also
tend to view personal or cultural traits as genetic predispositions."

In particular, I think this last sentence is very telling.


Then there's this passage from BBB3. It's about Orks, not Elves, but
it casts a certain light on scientific studies of metahumanity, and
while it doesn't directly state that it's refering to "Studies in
Awakened Biology" I have to asume that that was FASA's explicit
intent.

BBB3: p. 49:
"People have a lot of misconceptions about orks. For example,
scientists sais for several years that orks are nocturnal, but no one
ever bothered to ask whether our preference for darkness was
biological or simply the result of living in a society that doesn't
want to see us during the day."


And since people are thumping references, I'd like to use one that
doesn't come with a "This might be biased" disclaimer. In the Portland
chapter of Tir Tairngire, on p. 115, there's a description of an
exclusive upscale restaurant, the Nilestian. The menu of the Nilestian
is described thusly: "The food is exclusively vegan." Now this is
Portland, the gateway city of Tir Tairngire. The population is 70%
elf, but in the restaurant guide, they go out of their way to point
out that the place only serves vegan meals?

Then there's the listing for THE Sports Bar in the chapter on Tir
Tairngire's capital city of Salem (p. 128). The menu for THE Sports
Bar includes "burgers, dogs, wings and nachos." I'll grant you that
those are probably soy-burgers, soy-dogs, and soy based Buffalo Wings,
but they are most definately intended to resemble meat. This is in
Salem now, which has an 85% elf population, even higher than Portland,
since Salem doesn't share Portland's relaxed immigration laws.

And I would also like to mention the sushi bar in Eugene (a city with
a 90% elven population, BTW), mentioned on p. 135 of Tir Tairngire.
The place is very Japanese (It's run by a Yak, after all) from it's
description (It's run by a Yak, after all), so I suspect it's serving
actual sushi, and not soy-sushi. Fish would be right out under strict
vegetarian diets, which would be the type of vegetarian diet you'd
expect if it were a trait of elven biology.



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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 8
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Vegetarian Elves [was re: Queen Alachia]
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:27:06 -0700
At 21:03 9/28/98 -0400, Paul Gettle wrote:
>And since people are thumping references, I'd like to use one that
>doesn't come with a "This might be biased" disclaimer. In the Portland
>chapter of Tir Tairngire, on p. 115, there's a description of an
>exclusive upscale restaurant, the Nilestian. The menu of the Nilestian
>is described thusly: "The food is exclusively vegan." Now this is
>Portland, the gateway city of Tir Tairngire. The population is 70%
>elf, but in the restaurant guide, they go out of their way to point
>out that the place only serves vegan meals?

Because even obligate vegetarians like Elves can consume a number
of foods not on the list for vegans: animal milks and honey and
their derivatives (cheese, mead) are off the list for vegans.
Elves, being mammals, should have no trouble with consuming
milks, and I suspect honey isn't a problem for them either.
I don't know whether elves would be able to eat eggs or not.
Anyone know how close egg proteins are to meat proteins?

>Then there's the listing for THE Sports Bar in the chapter on Tir
>Tairngire's capital city of Salem (p. 128). The menu for THE Sports
>Bar includes "burgers, dogs, wings and nachos." I'll grant you that
>those are probably soy-burgers, soy-dogs, and soy based Buffalo Wings,
>but they are most definately intended to resemble meat. This is in
>Salem now, which has an 85% elf population, even higher than Portland,
>since Salem doesn't share Portland's relaxed immigration laws.

A lot of elves will have grown up with people coming up with non-meat
versions of burgers, dogs, wings, and nachos for them when it turned
out they couldn't handle the real thing, and could very well have a
cultural preference for them. I'd say that entry is inconclusive.

>And I would also like to mention the sushi bar in Eugene (a city with
>a 90% elven population, BTW), mentioned on p. 135 of Tir Tairngire.
>The place is very Japanese (It's run by a Yak, after all) from it's
>description (It's run by a Yak, after all), so I suspect it's serving
>actual sushi, and not soy-sushi. Fish would be right out under strict
>vegetarian diets, which would be the type of vegetarian diet you'd
>expect if it were a trait of elven biology.

There are vegetarian sushi dishes, though most sushi does involve
fish, fish eggs, or other sea critters like eels and sea urchins.
(Again, I don't know if caviar clocks in as meat proteins any more
than I do eggs...) It's mostly rice and seaweed in
the first place. Again, just like THE Sports Bar, a whole new
era in vegetarian sushi might have been ushered in by young elves
wanting to eat the same sorts of things their parents did.
Not as inconclusive as THE Sports Bar, but hardly unequivocal.

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 9
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Vegetarian Elves [was re: Queen Alachia]
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 02:35:39 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-28 22:12:30 EDT, you write:

<< And I would also like to mention the sushi bar in Eugene (a city with
a 90% elven population, BTW), mentioned on p. 135 of Tir Tairngire.
The place is very Japanese (It's run by a Yak, after all) from it's
description (It's run by a Yak, after all), so I suspect it's serving
actual sushi, and not soy-sushi. Fish would be right out under strict
vegetarian diets, which would be the type of vegetarian diet you'd
expect if it were a trait of elven biology. >>

And so your combating a misconception with a misconception. Sashimi is suchi
with raw fish. the only thing sushi really means is "wrapped in seaweed", and
that it includes rice. There most certainly are a great number of totaly
vegetarian sushi wraps. And maybe its mentioned because its one of the few
non vegan places in town? (assuming you cound soy as meat!)
Message no. 10
From: 00DNA <mcmanus@******.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vegetarian Elves [was re: Queen Alachia]
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:32:50 -0400
At 01:43 PM 9/28/98 -0700, Max Rible wrote:

>At 15:16 9/28/98 -0400, 00DNA wrote:
>>True, in SR2 it does say elves are vegetarians, and it also says that they
>>are nocturnal...and you can read PLENTY of places where there are elves
>>walking around during the day. (:
>
>Yeah, and humans are diurnal, and you can read PLENTY of places where there
>are humans walking around during the night. Your point? :-)

Well, yes, maybe it's not the same thing...but...my point is that SR2 says
elves are vegetarians and nocturnal, and I think they say Orks are
nocturnal as well, and that dwarves enjoy living in caves...ok...the last
one is not a direct quote. (:
In SR3...they've basically said, that lots of reports were baised and the
media was stereotyping. Just because elves have low-light vision, doesn't
mean they are nocturnal beings. They're still Humans, and humans do what
they do whenever they want to do it...

>I checked SR3 when I went home for lunch, and they do make reference
>to the vegetarianism with the bit about "bring the poor little pixie some
>wilted lettuce lest she soil her lips with meat" or something.

Actually, that's a wee bit out of context. The statement of "bring the
poor little pixie some wilted lettuce lest she soil her lips with
meat"...or whatever...actually come from the Elf saying that she's not a
vegetarian and that she hates it when people bring her wilted lettuce
because they think she won't eat meat. So, the elf is saying that it's a
stereotyped image that elves are vegetarians. I'm not saying that in your
game you can't make them all vegetarians, just saying that in SR3 they
don't say that all Elves are vegetarians. I play in my game a preference
to vegetarianism in elves, but not a requirment by far.


--00DNA
<<Replication Terminated>>

Further Reading

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