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Message no. 1
From: james@****.uow.edu.au (James Niall Zealey)
Subject: Vehicle initiative rules (was Re: Drone and last instructions)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:09:00 +1100
>
> Wild_Cat's updated vehicle initiative rules -- for use with Shadowrun,
> 3rd edition.
> v1.0 -- 13/03/2003
>
>
> Vehicles under direct control, metahuman pilots
>
> Standard SR3 rules seem to be OK here. However, here are a couple of
> clarifications:
> - Initiative boosters: VCRs and datajacks (virtual dashboard) are the
> only "pure" reaction/initiative boosters whose bonuses apply when
> driving a vehicle. Other than that, you're stuck with your physical,
> unaugmented initiative. Wired/boosted reflexes, reaction enhancers,
> synaptic accelerators, spells, the Increased Initiative adept power and
> all the rest... None of these apply as long as you're behind the wheel.
> However, your reaction is calculated using your modified Intelligence
> (always) and Quickness (except when rigging or using the V-dashboard)
> ratings. For example, a non-rigger character with a Quickness of 4(7),
> an Intelligence of 6(7) and a datajack would have an initiative of 7+1D6
> when driving a vehicle with manual controls, and 6+1D6 with the virtual
> dashboard.
>
> - The Other Guys In The Vehicle (TM): As stated in SR3, TOGITV(TM)
> cannot act before the vehicle's driver during a turn's first pass (no
> matter who or what the vehicle's pilot is: characters in an
> out-of-control vehicle can't act at all during the first pass of a turn,
> aside from moving -- better put someone behind the wheel fast,
> chummers!). Of course, this only applies to characters in the physical
> plane. Astrally projecting mages, jacked-in deckers and other riggers
> are not affected; they're not in their meat bodies after all...
>
>

We went a step further than this - we figured that not allowing the
wired samurai to beat up the corporate wage slave in the back of a van
until the rigger had had his go was... plain stupid.

Or for that matter that mr fast-as-a-demon-on-foot was suddenly a
slowpoke behind a wheel.

In short - all physical reaction and initiative enhancers work when you
are physically driving or occupying a vehicle. You may take any action
you want whenever you want when you are within a vehicle.

All actions taken in a moving vehicle are modified by the same modifiers
the driver had to cope with on his last action (to a minimum of +0). So,
if the driver was on rough terrain, and wasn't a rigger, everyone might
be getting a +2 to TNs. If he was a rigger, thanks to his TN reduction,
that might drop to +0.

You only really need to wait for the rigger to have his go if you are
a) too far away from the target before his go
b) need him to line you up with something
c) need him to drive straight and level so you don't need to suck down a
TN modifier.

But, I hear you say, don't riggers lose out? Frankly, no. They get
target number modifiers, and are the only people who can make a vehicle
dodge an attack. They're way ahead of anyone else on the road.

Damion - want to point these people towards our house rules document?
Message no. 2
From: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Vehicle initiative rules (was Re: Drone and last instructions)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:04:07 +1100
James writes:

> But, I hear you say, don't riggers lose out? Frankly, no. They get
> target number modifiers, and are the only people who can make a vehicle
> dodge an attack. They're way ahead of anyone else on the road.
>
> Damion - want to point these people towards our house rules document?

Our house rules are currently located at:

http://www.users.on.net/milliken/Damions_House_Rules.doc

However, they are about 3 erratas and 2 FAQs out of date, so there are a couple of things
in our house rules which have since been resolved in erratas or the more recent FAQs.

Now that I've finished my PhD thesis, maybe I should get about to updating them again ...
and playing SR again, for that matter :-).

--
Damion Milliken E-Mail: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au
---------------+----------------------------------+-----------------------
ICQ: 177734389 | MSN: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au | AIM/Y!: DamionMilliken
---------------+----------------------------------+-----------------------
Message no. 3
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Vehicle initiative rules (was Re: Drone and last instructions)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:58:46 +0100
According to James Niall Zealey, on Sunday 14 March 2004 23:09 the word on
the street was...

> We went a step further than this - we figured that not allowing the
> wired samurai to beat up the corporate wage slave in the back of a van
> until the rigger had had his go was... plain stupid.

A simple solution is to not allow characters to do something that would
affect the _vehicle_combat_ part of the turn before the driver has had an
action. Sort of like being surprised, where you can't do anything directly
against the people who surprised you, but you can do other stuff, like
taking cover or drawing a weapon to use later on.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Those who ignore history are doomed to keep liking crappy dance
covers of great songs.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Vehicle initiative rules (was Re: Drone and last instructions)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:19:23 +0100
> In short - all physical reaction and initiative enhancers work when
> you are physically driving or occupying a vehicle. You may take any
> action you want whenever you want when you are within a vehicle.

Well... I'm not a big supporter of the "physical reaction/init
enhancers work when physically driving a vehicle". When you're driving
the biggest lag comes not from your brain and nerve system, but from
the control method. With a steering wheel, pedals and shift stick,
you're not only less accurate than with a VCR (reflected by the latter
giving you TN modifiers -- a V-dashboard helps a bit too), but also
much slower.
No matter how fast you think, you still have to steer the wheel, push
the pedals and shift gears. It requires time. Wired reflexes et al.
decrease your *reaction* time (i.e. "brain lag"), not your *action*
time. Init boosters are like bullet-time mode in Max Payne: it gives
you a huge edge in combat and may allow you to move faster "in bursts"
(correcting your aim, etc. but not steering a wheel), but it doesn't
affect your overall movement speed. Thus, a wired guy behind the wheel
will see what's coming and perhaps even have the time to compute how he
should modify the vehicle's trajectory, but the control method is just
too laggy to actually execute the trajectory changes.

The way I see it, it's exactly the same reasoning that disallows *any*
physical reaction/initiative boosters in the Matrix, divides your
Reaction per 2 and limits Response Increase to 1 when using a keyboard
(not even sure on that one -- I know that's the limit in cold ASIST,
but perhaps keyboard users don't even RI at all).
No matter how fast you type, it's just too slow compared to a decker
running hot ASIST/pure DNI (even on a Sigma) who processes information
directly with his brain, without the laws of physics interfering.

> All actions taken in a moving vehicle are modified by the same
> modifiers the driver had to cope with on his last action (to a minimum
> of +0). So, if the driver was on rough terrain, and wasn't a rigger,
> everyone might be getting a +2 to TNs. If he was a rigger, thanks to
> his TN reduction, that might drop to +0.
>
> You only really need to wait for the rigger to have his go if you are
> a) too far away from the target before his go
> b) need him to line you up with something
> c) need him to drive straight and level so you don't need to suck down
> a TN modifier.

I like both these ones.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 5
From: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Vehicle initiative rules (was Re: Drone and last instructions)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:17:36 +1100
Lone Eagle writes:

> We allow reaction enhancers...etc for vehicle initiative, along with the
> reaction bonuses for wires or Adept reflex increase, we do not however
> allow the additional dice.
>
> <snip>
>
> The samurai drops the car down into second, reaches out and flicks a
> switch, moments later the cannon rises out through its slot in the bonnet
> and with the flick of another switch its motor powers up, the chain feed is
> powered, the dial showing barrel speed is climbing... Suddenly it's a lot
> quicker to do this as a rigger isn't it?

We've found no difficulties allowing wired types to have their full bonuses when using
vehicles. A hyper wired sammi (adept, etc) is much superior to an ordinary Joe when
driving, and a rigger is much superior to a hyper wired sammi when driving. Compared to a
sammi, a rigger gets huge TN bonuses and the ability to use a Control Pool. These two
advantages are absolutely HUGE. The TN bonuses, for instance, typically far outweigh the
TN bonuses of a smartlink or reach (comparing to physical combat). The Control Pool allows
the rigger to use their Combat Pool entirely offensively when using vehicle weaponry.
However, probably more importantly, the Control Pool (which is typically very large) can
be used either for offensive tasks (like additionally augmenting vehicle gunnery!), or for
dodging. Only riggers can dodge when driving. This, in itself, is an incredible advantage.

If you don't believe me, then just try it. We've been running it this way for 5 years or
so, and it works perfectly well in our rather long experience.

--
Damion Milliken E-Mail: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au
---------------+----------------------------------+-----------------------
ICQ: 177734389 | MSN: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au | AIM/Y!: DamionMilliken
---------------+----------------------------------+-----------------------
Message no. 6
From: james@****.uow.edu.au (James Niall Zealey)
Subject: Vehicle initiative rules (was Re: Drone and last instructions)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:11:34 +1100
> Max Noel <maxnoel_fr@*****.fr>
> Well... I'm not a big supporter of the "physical reaction/init
> enhancers work when physically driving a vehicle". When you're driving
> the biggest lag comes not from your brain and nerve system, but from the
> control method. With a steering wheel, pedals and shift stick, you're
...
> affect your overall movement speed. Thus, a wired guy behind the wheel
> will see what's coming and perhaps even have the time to compute how he
> should modify the vehicle's trajectory, but the control method is just
> too laggy to actually execute the trajectory changes.
>

Ok. So what happens when Mr wired runs to a car and starts it? What's
his initiative? Or wants to drive and shoot at people in the back seat?
Can he suddenly only shoot once per turn because he's driving? We
already have modifiers for that (I believe that driving and shooting is
a +2).

The rules I want for this situation are
1) I need to be able to integrate vehicle combat and regular combat
2) Riggers must be the best drivers

My solution covers both of these adequately - a -1 to target numbers and
the ability to dodge in a vehicle basically mean that if you're not a
rigger and you're driving in a combat, you're toasted unless you're
driving a tank and you're facing small arms fire. Riggers are so much
better than anyone else at driving that everyone else's options are
basically restricted to running away, and they only succeed at that if
their vehicle is far superior to that of their rigging opponent.

Letting normal initiative apply makes little difference to that,
prevents the combat-oriented characters from getting bored out of their
minds, and allows the easy shifting between vehicle and non-vehicle combat.

> The way I see it, it's exactly the same reasoning that disallows
> *any* physical reaction/initiative boosters in the Matrix, divides your
> Reaction per 2 and limits Response Increase to 1 when using a keyboard
> (not even sure on that one -- I know that's the limit in cold ASIST, but
> perhaps keyboard users don't even RI at all).
> No matter how fast you type, it's just too slow compared to a decker
> running hot ASIST/pure DNI (even on a Sigma) who processes information
> directly with his brain, without the laws of physics interfering.

I always figured that the reason that real-world reaction and initiative
boosters didn't work in the matrix was that matrix initiative boosters
were more along the lines of enabling you to take actions faster rather
than allowing you to react. If you know what I mean.

ie - since the hardware to boost your matrix reaction isn't in your
head, it can't be making your own reflexes any quicker. So it must
merely be facilitating how you do things.

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