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Message no. 1
From: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Subject: vehicles
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 04:15:25 CET
Vehicles:
I said I did not anticipate the time to adequately participate
in the VCC design process. However, since no one but Hayden & Carter have
posted anything thus far, I would like to add the following considerations:
1: I like the idea of dividing space up into engine, passenger,
and cargo. But there should be incentives to try different combinations
of various engine sizes and "accesories" or else everyone will put in the
largest engine possible.
2: Does the body include tires/hoverskirt/landing gear? If so,
what is the base #? how do we factor in extra tires? Or do we count each
tire seperatly?
3:Performance increase-this ties into the issue of tires as well.
If smaller cars don't handle quite as well, we'll need stuff to increase
the handling so we can design those fast Euro sports cars. How do various
performance tires factor in, as well as active suspensions and the like?
I am sorry that I lack the time to answer these questions in full
to the degree they require, but I hope the rest of you keep the above
factord in mind when designing your Dream Machine.
J Roberson

"Music can be such a sensual experience to the trained ear."
Message no. 2
From: R Andrew Hayden <rahayden@*****.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Re: vehicles
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 05:11:43 CET
On Thu, 28 Jan 1993 ROBERSON@***.EDU wrote:

>
> 1: I like the idea of dividing space up into engine, passenger,
> and cargo. But there should be incentives to try different combinations
> of various engine sizes and "accesories" or else everyone will put in the
> largest engine possible.

I posted about this last week. My thinging was (roughly) as follows:

1 Engine Space = 1 passenger space or 2 Cargo spaces
1 Passenger Space = 1 Engine Space or 2 Cargo spaces
2 Cargo Spaces = 1 Engine Space or 1 Passenger Space

> 2: Does the body include tires/hoverskirt/landing gear? If so,
> what is the base #? how do we factor in extra tires? Or do we count each
> tire seperatly?

My thinking is that body includes a means of transportation . For a car,
this would be 4 tires, for a plane, propellers, for a chopper, roters. We
can right it up with a "default" amount and then, available as accessories
is additional. For example, if you want to put six tires on, you buy two
more.

This (attempts) to keep it simple in that you don't ahve to do anything
except get a body and engine to get on the road. You can "hop-it-up" with
no problem.


> 3:Performance increase-this ties into the issue of tires as well.
> If smaller cars don't handle quite as well, we'll need stuff to increase
> the handling so we can design those fast Euro sports cars. How do various
> performance tires factor in, as well as active suspensions and the like?

That is covered later in "accessories". You can add spoilers, active
suspensions, performance grade tires, etc to get better handeling.

> I am sorry that I lack the time to answer these questions in full
> to the degree they require, but I hope the rest of you keep the above
> factord in mind when designing your Dream Machine.
> J Roberson


I appreciate your concerns.


And to everyone out there: everything I am posting is just some of my
thoughts. Please don't take any of this as gospel. If you have an idea,
please post it.



]> Robert Hayden <] [> This .signature has been made <]
]> <] [> with 85% recycled pixels. <]
]> rahayden@*****.weeg.uiowa.edu <]
]> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu <]
Message no. 3
From: What ? <MCM@***.BRIGHTON.AC.UK>
Subject: Vehicles
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 11:23:00 BST
I sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the rigger book give
most of the details and cost etc on most parts of vehicles ?

To build a vehicle from scratch is damn expensive (custom job especial) if
you buy them off the shelves, but if you know people in the trade then the cost
drops considerable.

Anyway, as far as I can see, all that's needed to make SR vehicles is
costings on frame works (chasis), basic bits (ie electrics for lights extra,
standard fittings etc) and all the small extras (the small fun toys)

So really all that's needed is how much each chasis would cost in its different
groups and how much the shell would cost in different styles.

Example

Four different catigories in each field (Bikes, cars, vans, lorries etc)
Poor (very cheap mass produced for low income types)
Average (standard family type)
Good (standard exec/flashy type)
Excellent (custom sport/luxuary type)

And as a slightly more advanced version put on how much more
money it costs to put the Body Ratings up and what the maximum would be.

Hope this is helpful to someone who could turn these in to workable rules.
By the way I haven't seen Kage-car and know little about cars apart from they
cost a fortune to run.

-WHAT
Message no. 4
From: "I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY...IT'S BETTER TO BURNOUT THEN TO FADE
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 19:52:25 -0600
Body + Armor is used to find the barrier rating.
The resistance test is made with Body + 1/2 Armor rating
BurnouT
Message no. 5
From: Joe McNulty <mcnultyj@****.JMB.COM>
Subject: Vehicles
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:15:46 CST
> > >THe RBB is one of the worst source books FASA has produced for SR, IMHO.
> >
> > It has a veritable plethora of problems. Although it is not completely devoid
> > of merit.
>
> Yes, it makes great kindling, and had a good centre section of art, but
> the rules are poorly developed, and they NEVER tell anyone how to use a
> rigger.

All this talk of Riggers brings up a question that has come up in my campaign
on a few occasions. Vehicles movement is quite unrealistic in my opinion,
All vehicles move at the beginning of the Turn? c'mon...

So what if Mr. Rigger was in his cityMaster that he borrowed from Lone Star,
really, he's intending to bring it back...., and he is chasing Slicer, the
wonderful Wired-3 Razorguy. To me, it just seems to easy to be able to hit
ole Slicer since all I have to do is move over his position at the biginning
of the turn, even if I was 50m away from him! Now wouldn't one think that
Slicer would be able to move out of the way of a car steamrolling towards him
from 50m?!? And has anyone come up with any alternative movement rules for
Vehicles?

Of course, this goes for drone movement too... To have a drone do a pop-up
shot it would have to be visible for the entire round. Can you say 'poor
drone'? I knew you could...

Later,
Joe
Message no. 6
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 12:31:28 GMT
>So what if Mr. Rigger was in his cityMaster that he borrowed from Lone Star,
>really, he's intending to bring it back...., and he is chasing Slicer, the
>wonderful Wired-3 Razorguy. To me, it just seems to easy to be able to hit
>ole Slicer since all I have to do is move over his position at the biginning
>of the turn, even if I was 50m away from him! Now wouldn't one think that
>Slicer would be able to move out of the way of a car steamrolling towards him
>from 50m?!? And has anyone come up with any alternative movement rules for
>Vehicles?

That's called: Slicer gets to resist the attack, probably rolling Body Dice
plus Combat Pool against an appropriate TN, like the skill of the driver or
the Hnadling of the vehicle, or something like that.

J Roberson
Message no. 7
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Vehicles
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1993 18:35:42 GMT
I've uploaded a few vehicles I designed in GURPS terms to put on that
list. Many of the items are self-explanatory, and the measurements are
real-world--would anyone care to see them, perhaps as guides to vehicles
in Srun? Someday (Xmas, maybe) I plan to figure a way to convert the
stats, and thought this might tide everyone over till then.

J Roberson
Message no. 8
From: Emily Dresner <zenith@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Vehicles
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 23:29:13 -0500
Hi guys. I don't know about you, but I'm getting a tad tired of the
small amount of personal vehicles that are provided with the game. I
mean, the Eurocar Westwind is nice and all, but wouldn't it be nice if
your character was driving around in the '56 Mercedes? Or a nice new
Jag? I was just wondering if anyone has ever come up with new
sportscars/bikes/trucks/etc. (I'm sure Ford has made more models than
just the Americar...)

Thanks.

Emily Dresner
Message no. 9
From: Aaron Wigley <wigs@****.CC.MONASH.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 16:03:04 +1100
Emily Dresner Wrote:
> I was just wondering if anyone has ever come up with new
> sportscars/bikes/trucks/etc. (I'm sure Ford has made more models than
> just the Americar...)

Ground vehicles - no. I have fleshed out a few aircraft though, from
small aerobatic aircraft, to utility, and luxury commuters. If you are
interested, let me know.

> Thanks.
>
> Emily Dresner


The Wigs of Oz, "Shamans and mages make bad neighbours
Aaron Wigley and worse roommates. The differences
Email: wigs@****.cc.monash.edu.au between 'hermetic nerds' and 'party shamans'
are a running gag on the popular trivid
series 'The Odd Coven'"
- Shadowrun II, pg 132.
Message no. 10
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 12:32:46 -0600
I've been toying with a system for converting GURPS vehicles to Shadowrun
for some time now. I may work some stuff up over Xmas break.

J Roberson
Message no. 11
From: Stuart Marsh <sam10@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Vehicles
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 10:46:15 +0000
I'm a wee bit confused as to how initiative works for people driving vehicles.
Say Sammy the Street sam is crusing in his Eurocar westwind 2000 does he
A> Roll Standard Initiative including wired reflexes when driving
B> Roll Base Initiative i.e. 1D6+unmodified reactions

If he rolls fun initiative, then just what is the point of a vehicle control
rig? Except that you can remote vehicles.

Also what is the initiative of a drone an autopilot, say Aerodyne the rigger
sets up a hunter survalence drone and commands its auto pilot to shot anyone
who comes in through his front door and then he goes off partying somewhere
what initiative will the drone roll??

Also about stadard movement, humans move at quicknesx3 when running, is this for
one whole round, or do they run this each complex action??

Cinder
Message no. 12
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 12:01:41 -0500
On Fri, 10 Feb 1995, Stuart Marsh wrote:

> I'm a wee bit confused as to how initiative works for people driving vehicles.
> Say Sammy the Street sam is crusing in his Eurocar westwind 2000 does he
> A> Roll Standard Initiative including wired reflexes when driving
> B> Roll Base Initiative i.e. 1D6+unmodified reactions
>
> If he rolls fun initiative, then just what is the point of a vehicle control
> rig? Except that you can remote vehicles.

The point of vehicle control rig is that it allows the rigger to
control turret-mounted weapons while still driving the car. As an added
bonus, a rigger subtracts 2 from the target number of handling tests for
every level of his or her VCR. This generally reduces the handling to
something small, making handling and position tests a breeze. Also,
there are lots of things I would allow a rigger to do as a free action
when rigged, like closing doors, opening trunks, flooding the passenger
compartment with NeuroStun VIII, etc, similar to switching fire modes or
ejecting a clip with a smartgunlink.
Anyone can remote control a vehicle, but only a rigger can
cybernetically remote-control a vehicle (provided he has a cyber-capable
drone deck), and when rigged into a drone, the rigger gets the same
bonuses as above.

> Also what is the initiative of a drone an autopilot, say Aerodyne the rigger
> sets up a hunter survalence drone and commands its auto pilot to shot anyone
> who comes in through his front door and then he goes off partying somewhere
> what initiative will the drone roll??

Autopilot Rating + 1d6

> Also about stadard movement, humans move at quicknesx3 when running,
> is this for one whole round, or do they run this each complex action??

This speed is for the entire round. Also, remember that movement is a
modifier, not an action.

Marc
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 04:08:20 +0930
>
> I'm a wee bit confused as to how initiative works for people driving vehicles.
> Say Sammy the Street sam is crusing in his Eurocar westwind 2000 does he
> A> Roll Standard Initiative including wired reflexes when driving
> B> Roll Base Initiative i.e. 1D6+unmodified reactions

I think it's 1D6 plus modified reactions... Not sure.

>
> If he rolls fun initiative, then just what is the point of a vehicle control
> rig? Except that you can remote vehicles.
>
To get the extra dice. :)

> Also what is the initiative of a drone an autopilot, say Aerodyne the rigger
> sets up a hunter survalence drone and commands its auto pilot to shot anyone
> who comes in through his front door and then he goes off partying somewhere
> what initiative will the drone roll??
>
Delayed action. Some one walks through the door, they get shot.

Not the answer you want, however... The real answer is that this isn't
covered. One solution would be to give it an initiative equal to Autopilot
plus (AP/2, round down, +1)D6.

> Also about stadard movement, humans move at quicknesx3 when running, is this for
> one whole round, or do they run this each complex action??
>
You can run once per round, as a complex action, but on any other turns you
may have, you can walk for Quickness meters. (This really should be a
FAQ.)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 14
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 20:52:19 +0000
> >
> > If he rolls fun initiative, then just what is the point of a vehicle control
> > rig? Except that you can remote vehicles.
> >
> To get the extra dice. :)
>
That's right, riggers get:
a) reduced target numbers when rigging a vehicle
b) a rigging pool (i.e. buckets of dice to control rigged vehicles)

GLO

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Sytems Programmmer | Phone: (UK) 0495 765021
Gwent Health Authority | "Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"
Message no. 15
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 14:28:40 -0700
>I'm a wee bit confused as to how initiative works for people driving vehicles.
>Say Sammy the Street sam is crusing in his Eurocar westwind 2000 does he
> A> Roll Standard Initiative including wired reflexes when driving
> B> Roll Base Initiative i.e. 1D6+unmodified reactions

A> standard initiative

>If he rolls fun initiative, then just what is the point of a vehicle control
> rig? Except that you can remote vehicles.

Rigging Pool
Lower Target Numbers
Control over vehicle weapon systems


Note: 1 action MUST be used to control the vehicle - otherwise the person
driving must do a CRASH test (I think its a crash test)

So you can go down the street aiming out the window and firing unless you've got
a really good initiative.


Nightfox
Message no. 16
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 18:32:55 -0500
On Sat, 11 Feb 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> > I'm a wee bit confused as to how initiative works for people driving vehicles.
> > Say Sammy the Street sam is crusing in his Eurocar westwind 2000 does he
> > A> Roll Standard Initiative including wired reflexes when driving
> > B> Roll Base Initiative i.e. 1D6+unmodified reactions

> I think it's 1D6 plus modified reactions... Not sure.

The Sammy gets to roll his normal reaction, so he may be just as
fast as the rigger. He just won't be as good. See my previous post.

> > Also about stadard movement, humans move at quicknesx3 when running, is this for
> > one whole round, or do they run this each complex action??

> You can run once per round, as a complex action, but on any other turns you
> may have, you can walk for Quickness meters. (This really should be a
> FAQ.)

Yes, it should, because your answer is wrong. As I said before,
movement is a modifier, not an action. Shadowrun p. 83 (Movement)
"Movement in no way changes the availability of Free, Simple, or Complex
Actions."
It is unclear whether the writers intended "Turn" or Phase" when
describing running or walking, but it would make more sense if it were
"Turn." Someone with Wired Reflexes 3 shouldn't run any faster than
someone without wires. Reflexes and out-and-out running speed have
little to do with each other.
In the end, just do what you want to. It's what the rest of us do.

Marc
Message no. 17
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 21:58:17 -0700
No no no no no no no!!

The street samurai does NOT gain the bonuses from his Wired Reflexes or
any other reflex boosting when driving a car. This may sound odd, but
there are several reasons.

1) I don't care how fast you can move those hands and feet of yours;
thought (via a rigger jack) still moves faster.

2) It's the Holy Game Balance issue. Why should anyone be a rigger if
you can have wired reflexes and still be as good as a rigger? And you
don't have to be rigged to remote control vehicles; you're just a whole
lot better at it.

I'm pretty sure somewhere in the vehicle combat rules section of SRII
this will be found to be true.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 18
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 16:33:26 +0930
> No no no no no no no!!
>
> The street samurai does NOT gain the bonuses from his Wired Reflexes or
> any other reflex boosting when driving a car. This may sound odd, but
> there are several reasons.
>
> 1) I don't care how fast you can move those hands and feet of yours;
> thought (via a rigger jack) still moves faster.
>
> 2) It's the Holy Game Balance issue. Why should anyone be a rigger if
> you can have wired reflexes and still be as good as a rigger? And you
> don't have to be rigged to remote control vehicles; you're just a whole
> lot better at it.
>
> I'm pretty sure somewhere in the vehicle combat rules section of SRII
> this will be found to be true.
>


From p104... "Other types of Reaction- or Initiative enhancing cyberware or
magics _do not_ assist the rigger while jacked in."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

While jacked in. If you are not jacked in, then what? Looks to me like it
should be a standard Reaction test. There should at least be some bonus in
driving for the Reflexes, otherwise you're no better off than Joe Bloggs
down the street and off-the-rack. (What I do is drop the dice bonus.)

Also remember that if you're not rigging (ie, jacked in), you don't get the
Control Pool. And that's the real bonus of rigging.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 19
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***********.HACKS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 01:19:24 -0700
On Sat, 11 Feb 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >From p104... "Other types of Reaction- or Initiative enhancing cyberware or
> magics _do not_ assist the rigger while jacked in."
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> While jacked in. If you are not jacked in, then what? Looks to me like it
> should be a standard Reaction test. There should at least be some bonus in
> driving for the Reflexes, otherwise you're no better off than Joe Bloggs
> down the street and off-the-rack. (What I do is drop the dice bonus.)
Hardly. The rigger is put in the simsense world of *being* a car.
Everything that is around the vehicle the rigger is aware of. For all
intents and purposes, the rigger *is* the car. It goes from being
driving a car to being in a natural environment for the rigger. The
rigger can react faster being more familir with the environment than the
samurai can behind the steering wheel. The sam gets to act probably
twice in a 3-second turn, while the rigger can react up to 3 to 4 times.

>
> Also remember that if you're not rigging (ie, jacked in), you don't get the
> Control Pool. And that's the real bonus of rigging.
All too true. A rigger in his/her environment is a deadly foe, even for
the likes of the Supersams.

> --
> Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
> Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
> are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
>
Mike, TGC
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 10:22:08 +0100
>I'm a wee bit confused as to how initiative works for people driving vehicles.
>Say Sammy the Street sam is crusing in his Eurocar westwind 2000 does he
> A> Roll Standard Initiative including wired reflexes when driving
> B> Roll Base Initiative i.e. 1D6+unmodified reactions
>
>If he rolls fun initiative, then just what is the point of a vehicle control
> rig? Except that you can remote vehicles.

You get a Control Pool, which helps a rigger in the same way a Hacking Pool
helps a decker, or a Combat Pool helps the samurai. The sam may have
approximately the same initiative, but he won't be able to control the
vehicle as well as the rigger can.

>Also about stadard movement, humans move at quicknesx3 when running, is
this for
>one whole round, or do they run this each complex action??

You can run on only _one_ action per turn, but you can still walk normally
on the others. If you've got Quickness 5x3 and three actions, you can reach
a distance of 25 meters.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The 7th Zogian Church Of Funk
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 21
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 20:06:20 +0930
>
> On Sat, 11 Feb 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> > While jacked in. If you are not jacked in, then what? Looks to me like it
> > should be a standard Reaction test. There should at least be some bonus in
> > driving for the Reflexes, otherwise you're no better off than Joe Bloggs
> > down the street and off-the-rack. (What I do is drop the dice bonus.)
> Hardly. The rigger is put in the simsense world of *being* a car.
> Everything that is around the vehicle the rigger is aware of. For all
> intents and purposes, the rigger *is* the car. It goes from being
> driving a car to being in a natural environment for the rigger. The
> rigger can react faster being more familir with the environment than the
> samurai can behind the steering wheel. The sam gets to act probably
> twice in a 3-second turn, while the rigger can react up to 3 to 4 times.
>
Which is why I drop the dice bonus, but keep any enhancements to the
Reaction (ie, Wired 2 gives +4 to the Reaction which is kept). A super
wired sam will, on average, do better than a rigger with only level 1, but
there is still the control pool for the rigger.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 22
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 08:33:33 -0500
Looks like it's time for my rigger rant again.

1) While rigging, wired reflexes does not help. In fact, nothing but a VCR
works. Why? It has to do with the nature of the wiring. The treatise is
about two pages long (and I didn't save it from the last time I posted
it), but suffice it to say that they're sufficiently different that they
are not compatable.

2) While /not/ rigging, wired reflexes and other boosters /do/ function.
However, you do not get the control pool, nor do you get any of the
other benefits a VCR provides.

3) Rigging is NOT a simsense kind of thing. This is supported by the
novels. When decking, the cyberdeck hijacks part of your brain, puts it
to sleep. Why not? You don't need to interact with the real world while
decking. You do while rigging; there are far too many variables involved
to pipe through a reality filter. Rigging adds to your existing senses
and provides faster, more direct control to the vehicle's systems,
resulting in a vehicle that responds faster. But your eyes, ears, and
everything else still function. Back to #1: because your body is still
functional, you have to wire neuromuscular transmitters throughout the
body to hijack certain reflexive actions [long treatise on grey matter
in the central and outter nervous systems excised] and feed them out to
the vehicle's controll processor. That's why the high essence cost for
the better VCRs, and that's why you can't combine a VCR and wired
reflexes; they're completely different kinds of systems.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | returned to its special container and
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | kept under refrigeration.
Message no. 23
From: pran r mukherjee <pran@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 13:00:39 -0400
You DO get all benefits of Wired Reflexes, but you don't get the -2
target number per level of rigger gear, you don't get the control pool,
you don't get the near-intuitive level of awareness of everything
happening to your vehicle. You do not simply lose all benefits of wired
simply by stepping into a vehicle.

On Sat, 11 Feb 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> > No no no no no no no!!
> >
> > The street samurai does NOT gain the bonuses from his Wired Reflexes or
> > any other reflex boosting when driving a car. This may sound odd, but
> > there are several reasons.
> >
> > 1) I don't care how fast you can move those hands and feet of yours;
> > thought (via a rigger jack) still moves faster.
> >
> > 2) It's the Holy Game Balance issue. Why should anyone be a rigger if
> > you can have wired reflexes and still be as good as a rigger? And you
> > don't have to be rigged to remote control vehicles; you're just a whole
> > lot better at it.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure somewhere in the vehicle combat rules section of SRII
> > this will be found to be true.
> >
>
>
> >From p104... "Other types of Reaction- or Initiative enhancing cyberware or
> magics _do not_ assist the rigger while jacked in."
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> While jacked in. If you are not jacked in, then what? Looks to me like it
> should be a standard Reaction test. There should at least be some bonus in
> driving for the Reflexes, otherwise you're no better off than Joe Bloggs
> down the street and off-the-rack. (What I do is drop the dice bonus.)
>
> Also remember that if you're not rigging (ie, jacked in), you don't get the
> Control Pool. And that's the real bonus of rigging.
>
> --
> Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
> Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
> are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
>
Message no. 24
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***********.HACKS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 13:51:42 -0700
On Sat, 11 Feb 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> > Hardly. The rigger is put in the simsense world of *being* a car.
> > Everything that is around the vehicle the rigger is aware of. For all
> > intents and purposes, the rigger *is* the car. It goes from being
> > driving a car to being in a natural environment for the rigger. The
> > rigger can react faster being more familir with the environment than the
> > samurai can behind the steering wheel. The sam gets to act probably
> > twice in a 3-second turn, while the rigger can react up to 3 to 4 times.
> >
> Which is why I drop the dice bonus, but keep any enhancements to the
> Reaction (ie, Wired 2 gives +4 to the Reaction which is kept). A super
> wired sam will, on average, do better than a rigger with only level 1, but
> there is still the control pool for the rigger.
Ok. I can see keeping the reaction bonus. Cool beans.

>
> --
> Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
> Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
> are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
>
Message no. 25
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 19:02:32 -0400
On Fri, 10 Feb 1995, Erik S Jameson wrote:

> No no no no no no no!!
>
> The street samurai does NOT gain the bonuses from his Wired Reflexes or
> any other reflex boosting when driving a car. This may sound odd, but
> there are several reasons.
>
> 1) I don't care how fast you can move those hands and feet of yours;
> thought (via a rigger jack) still moves faster.

Not really. The rigger just has much better control over his
vehicle. While tha wired samurai reacts with his body and, say, turns
the wheel, the rigger just reacts and thinks about turning the wheel.
You're still limited by how fast the actual car can turn, not how fast
you can react. Besides, initiative actually means little in car chases.
It's not nearly as important as a Position Test, which the rigger will
win hands down.

> 2) It's the Holy Game Balance issue. Why should anyone be a rigger if
> you can have wired reflexes and still be as good as a rigger? And you
> don't have to be rigged to remote control vehicles; you're just a whole
> lot better at it.

A rigger has access to a Control Pool, a wired sam does not. A
rigger has a reduction in handling target number, a wired sam does not.
The rigger will generaly clean the sammy's clock when the Position Test
rolls around. Also, it's easier for the rigger to resist damage to his
vehicle 'cause he can add in dice from the Control Pool. The sam
can't. As I said, actual initiative scores mean little in vehicular
combat.

> I'm pretty sure somewhere in the vehicle combat rules section of SRII
> this will be found to be true.

Nope. It's not.

Marc
Message no. 26
From: Sebastian Zoellner <zoellnea@**********.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 13:50:01 +0100
> I'm a wee bit confused as to how initiative works for people driving vehicles.
> Say Sammy the Street sam is crusing in his Eurocar westwind 2000 does he
> A> Roll Standard Initiative including wired reflexes when driving
> B> Roll Base Initiative i.e. 1D6+unmodified reactions

> If he rolls fun initiative, then just what is the point of a vehicle control
> rig? Except that you can remote vehicles.

The main point about the Rig is the Rigging Pool. First, fighting without one is
like Combat without a Combat Pool - Suicide.
Second, the Rigger can use his Pool with the Position Test, which means, he has
at least twice the dice Sammy can use. And these Successes determine (among other
things) the maximum number of actions each character gets.

The average Rigger fighting the average Samurai in comperable Vehicles winns
every time, because
- He decides the distance between the vehicles (Position Test)
- He has a Combat Pool
- He can use all his actions even in tight terrain (TN 5+ during the Position
Test)

This assumes, that the Sammie has the same Vehicleskill as the Rigger.

I hope, this helps
Sebastian
Message no. 27
From: Luc <rjwate01@********.SPD.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vehicles
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 12:07:15 EST
[other stuff deleted]
>
> > Also what is the initiative of a drone an autopilot, say Aerodyne the rigger
> > sets up a hunter survalence drone and commands its auto pilot to shot anyone
> > who comes in through his front door and then he goes off partying somewhere
> > what initiative will the drone roll??
> >
> Delayed action. Some one walks through the door, they get shot.
>
> Not the answer you want, however... The real answer is that this isn't
> covered. One solution would be to give it an initiative equal to Autopilot
> plus (AP/2, round down, +1)D6.
>

actually somewhere in the second ed book there are rules for ambushes...

Luc
Message no. 28
From: NT <night@********.CO.AT>
Subject: Vehicles.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 22:14:16 +0200
Hi there.

I've got a little problem. Does anyone know if there's a book with more
vehicles in it than the SRII-Sourcebook? I thought of the rigger
handbook or kinda but I don't have it now, so I wonder if any of you
guys know a internet site where I can find such stuff. There are no
rules in the SRII-Sb for lorries or other large vehicles. At least I
didn't find them.
--
NT
----------------------------------

Darkness is just absence of light!

----------------------------------
Message no. 29
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Vehicles.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:31:51 -0600
At 22:14 02/07/98 +0200, you wrote:

>I've got a little problem. Does anyone know if there's a book with more
>vehicles in it than the SRII-Sourcebook? I thought of the rigger
>handbook or kinda but I don't have it now, so I wonder if any of you
>guys know a internet site where I can find such stuff.

Earlier this year a large issue of The Shadowrun Supplemental dedicated to
vehicles and riggers was released. There's a companion file with vehicles
for Rigger 2 and Rigger 1 stats.

> There are no
>rules in the SRII-Sb for lorries or other large vehicles. At least I
>didn't find them.

Construction rules are in Rigger 2.

-Adam J
-
< http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / ICQ# 2350330 / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / TSS Productions >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< The Entity responsible for the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball >
Message no. 30
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Vehicles.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:57:01 EDT
In a message dated 7/2/98, 1:25:29 PM, SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET writes:
<<I've got a little problem. Does anyone know if there's a book with more
vehicles in it than the SRII-Sourcebook? I thought of the rigger
handbook or kinda but I don't have it now, so I wonder if any of you
guys know a internet site where I can find such stuff. There are no
rules in the SRII-Sb for lorries or other large vehicles. At least I
didn't find them.>>

You need to get yourself a copy of the Rigger 2 sourcebook ... this way you
can design the truvks and other things that you may want to invent ...

-Mike (Who is thoroughly enjoying his vacation away from Lafayette right now.)
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Vehicles.
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:34:22 +0100
NT said on 22:14/2 Jul 98,...

> I've got a little problem. Does anyone know if there's a book with more
> vehicles in it than the SRII-Sourcebook? I thought of the rigger
> handbook or kinda but I don't have it now, so I wonder if any of you
> guys know a internet site where I can find such stuff. There are no
> rules in the SRII-Sb for lorries or other large vehicles. At least I
> didn't find them.

FASA has published two books with lots of vehicles in them; the
first was the Rigger Black Book (1991 or so), which was mainly a
catalog of vehicles (with pictures for most of them) backed up by
expanded rules.

Late last year, that was superseded by Rigger 2, which is a big
book of vehicle rules backed up by a list of all vehicles published
for SR so far, with new game stats necessary for the new rules.
No pictures, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 32
From: Adam Lewis adamswork@*****.com
Subject: Vehicles
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 06:15:35 -0700 (PDT)
In the back of Field of Fire their are list of various
types of vehicles. But the stats don't match the rules
in SR3. For example there is no acceleration listed
for the cars.

Anyone have SR3 stats for the Honda Z2230? Turbo?

Thx,

=­amL
===="The good die first."
"But most of us are morally ambiguous, which explains our random dying
patterns."
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Message no. 33
From: arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject: Vehicles
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:47:20 +0200
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.org]On Behalf Of Adam Lewis
> Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 3:16 PM
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: Vehicles

> In the back of Field of Fire their are list of various
> types of vehicles. But the stats don't match the rules
> in SR3. For example there is no acceleration listed
> for the cars.

this is because FoF uses the Rigger Black Book rules,
as it was published before Rigger 2 and SR3.

> Anyone have SR3 stats for the Honda Z2230? Turbo?

they, and all other vehicles in the official books,
were converted to R2 rules and are included in the
Rigger 2 sourcebook.

For the Hondas these are:

H spd ac b a sig
standard 4/8 105 10 3 0 2
turbo 4/8 160 12 3 0 1

autonav pilot sensor cargo load
1 - 0 3 40
2 - 0 3 40

seating entry fuel econ cost
4 bucket 2+1t 60 gasoline 6 per 100km 26000
35800


the turbo version has "turbocharging" as a feature

arclight
Message no. 34
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Vehicles
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 19:02:51 +0200
According to Adam Lewis, at 6:15 on 14 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> In the back of Field of Fire their are list of various
> types of vehicles. But the stats don't match the rules
> in SR3. For example there is no acceleration listed
> for the cars.

That's because the stats in FoF are for use with the Rigger Black Book and
SRII. After those came out (long after), FASA published Rigger 2 by
current listmember Jon Szeto, which overhauled the vehicle stats,
including the addition of Acceleration but also changing many other stuff.

SR3 uses the Rigger 2 rules (though without most of the optional rules R2
has), and thus the two sets of stats don't match.

> Anyone have SR3 stats for the Honda Z2230? Turbo?

Look in Rigger 2. Even if you own SR3, R2 contains enough material to make
it worth buying.

--
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I can't help it...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 35
From: Adam Lewis adamswork@*****.com
Subject: Vehicles
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:23:25 -0700 (PDT)
--- arclight <arclight@**************.com> wrote:

> this is because FoF uses the Rigger Black Book
> rules,
> as it was published before Rigger 2 and SR3.
>

<snip>

Thanks, that was exactly what I wanted.

I guess I need to buy another book now. (Rigger 2)


=­amL
===="The good die first."
"But most of us are morally ambiguous, which explains our random dying
patterns."
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