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Message no. 1
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Vehicle Scaling System
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:58:31 -0400 (EDT)
Having read through the posts pertaining to this thread, I'm
afraid I don't see much of a need to scale things in the first place. I
mean, you have personal scale, vehicular scale, and naval scale. Those
three seem to cover most of what you're going to run into, and they do it
in a way that's more or less realistic.
Note I said more or less. The problem that people seem to come up
against is that once you get to weapons of the scale that they *can*
damage heavier vehicles and/or ships, they tend to obliterate them
entirely. Sort of an "all or nothing" approach.
But this is true to life. A HEAT round makes a relatively small
hole in a tank, but totally trashes the inside, usually causing fuel and
ammo to cook off in addition to the basic round of the damage itself. An
Exocet missile is going to cause most ships it hits to sink in very short
order. Only military vessels with massive redundancy and active damage
control procedures are going to be able to stand up to a single hit. And
more than one? Unless you're in something huge that can afford to soak
the hits, seal off watertight compartments, and still float, you're
pretty much screwed. That's why point-defense and anti-missile capability
are so important in todays navies.
It's also why vehicles like tanks don't operate unsupported.
They're too easy to kill with the right equipment, and the right equipment
is man-portable.

Yes, a heavy pistol is going to play hell on a Dodge Scoot. It'll
even put holes in an Americar. Not big holes, but if you put enough of
them in it, you might just damage something. An assault rifle is going to
do bad things to an Americar (even though the base damage is lower, the
number of rounds will add to both the final power level and the damage
code.
But once you get to the level where bullets don't really have an
impact on vehicle, basically you're just chipping paint. You need a
bigger weapon, and most weapons that are big enough are going to have the
destructive capacity to destroy the vehicle if they can get past its
armor. That's sort of the nature of modern (and post-modern) warfare.
If you really want to make vehicles tougher against small arms
(which is what it sounds like you were getting at), you can simply say
that any weapon which has its damage code reduced also ignores the
shooter's successes for staging the damage up (as with shooting at
Barriers, where it doesn't matter how well you plance the shot). This
reflects the fact that single bullet holes really are trivial to most
vehicles. If you want to do more damage, go for a called shot, which is
specifically targetting a critical or less armored part of the vehicle.

Marc
Message no. 2
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Vehicle Scaling System
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:34:27 -0700
From: "Marc Renouf" <renouf@********.com>
> Having read through the posts pertaining to this thread, I'm
> afraid I don't see much of a need to scale things in the first place. I
> mean, you have personal scale, vehicular scale, and naval scale. Those
> three seem to cover most of what you're going to run into, and they do it
> in a way that's more or less realistic.

Well. I would agree with you on the vehicle scale issue but not the naval
scale. As it stands naval vessels with a Hull of 1 are immune to
conventional weapons. Even hitting it with ATGMs and Bandits will just
scratch the paint -which I find pretty unrealistic. I'm sure Jon was
shooting for making sure that aircraft carriers were not taken out by
ATGM-armed speedboats but it still gives some loopy results. For reference,
p. 166, CP

> Note I said more or less. The problem that people seem to come up
> against is that once you get to weapons of the scale that they *can*
> damage heavier vehicles and/or ships, they tend to obliterate them
> entirely. Sort of an "all or nothing" approach.

I don't see that as true at all. You have to TOTALLY outmatch the target in
order to obliterate it entirely.

> But this is true to life. A HEAT round makes a relatively small
> hole in a tank, but totally trashes the inside, usually causing fuel and
> ammo to cook off in addition to the basic round of the damage itself.

Not necessairly. With modern armor a tank could easily surivive multiple
HEAT hits on the front glacis plate depending on the warhead size and
design. While that same warhead might utterly destroy the vehicle if it hit
from the side or rear.

> An
> Exocet missile is going to cause most ships it hits to sink in very short
> order. Only military vessels with massive redundancy and active damage
> control procedures are going to be able to stand up to a single hit. And
> more than one? Unless you're in something huge that can afford to soak
> the hits, seal off watertight compartments, and still float, you're
> pretty much screwed. That's why point-defense and anti-missile capability
> are so important in todays navies.

Maybe, but again its not total annihilation. SR does not really model the
realities of heavily armored vehicles without resorting to optional rules
such as Called Shots.

> It's also why vehicles like tanks don't operate unsupported.
> They're too easy to kill with the right equipment, and the right equipment
> is man-portable.

The shift to manpack armor killers seems to be getting outpaced by defensive
systems technology though. Antimissile systems like Arena and active
countermeasures like Shtora may see a move in how portable future antitank
missiles are.

> Yes, a heavy pistol is going to play hell on a Dodge Scoot. It'll
> even put holes in an Americar. Not big holes, but if you put enough of
> them in it, you might just damage something. An assault rifle is going to
> do bad things to an Americar (even though the base damage is lower, the
> number of rounds will add to both the final power level and the damage
> code.

But the damage progression is not that even. An Panther vs any vehicle (no
matter the size) only does base Serious damage if it has even 1 point of
armor. Assuming its not staged up or down it will damage but not destroy a
bicycle, and will cause henious damage on any tank or fighter that it
effects. Now, obviously the weapon will probably be staged up vs a bike and
down vs a tank but thats up to the luck of the dice - which can obviously
lead to laughable results.

> But once you get to the level where bullets don't really have an
> impact on vehicle, basically you're just chipping paint. You need a
> bigger weapon, and most weapons that are big enough are going to have the
> destructive capacity to destroy the vehicle if they can get past its
> armor.

Well, not necessarily true in Shadowrun. Especially with a Rigger at the
helm you can dodge (yes, dodge) even lasers! They also can heavily mitigate
damage from any sort of weapon, which throws the entire "balance" of weapons
out the window.

> That's sort of the nature of modern (and post-modern) warfare.
> If you really want to make vehicles tougher against small arms
> (which is what it sounds like you were getting at), you can simply say
> that any weapon which has its damage code reduced also ignores the
> shooter's successes for staging the damage up (as with shooting at
> Barriers, where it doesn't matter how well you plance the shot). This
> reflects the fact that single bullet holes really are trivial to most
> vehicles. If you want to do more damage, go for a called shot, which is
> specifically targetting a critical or less armored part of the vehicle.

That could work, but also assumes that the players are willing to use the
called shot rules. And ignoring successes makes the noted disparity in
damage scaling even more apparant.

And would you also ignore the defenders successes to scale down the damage?
If so, it would lead to all sorts of wierd results.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 3
From: Ahrain Drigar ahrain_drigar@*******.com
Subject: Vehicle Scaling System
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 23:55:30 EDT
>From: Marc Renouf <renouf@********.com>
>Subject: Re: Vehicle Scaling System
>Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:58:31 -0400 (EDT)
>
>
> If you really want to make vehicles tougher against small arms
>(which is what it sounds like you were getting at), you can simply say
>that any weapon which has its damage code reduced also ignores the
>shooter's successes for staging the damage up (as with shooting at
>Barriers, where it doesn't matter how well you plance the shot). This
>reflects the fact that single bullet holes really are trivial to most
>vehicles. If you want to do more damage, go for a called shot, which is
>specifically targetting a critical or less armored part of the vehicle.
>
>Marc

That's not the entirer point. One point was for a Star Wars type universe
conversion.

The other is if a vehicular weapon is designed to effece a vehicle why would
it's damage be reduced vs. vehicles AND do the SAME damage vs. a human? It
makes no sense. I think that an Ares Firelance would decimate a human
BECAUSE it was designed as a vehicular weapon.

Again this is not the entire point, though. My wife is running a WEIRD SR
game. I needed some help with some rules that might even help with some
gaps in the current vehicular combat system. They way I see it anyway.
But, this is just my opinion.

But, thanks for commenting. The first time I posted the wuestion, I thought
I was just going to get ignored. :)

Ahrain
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Message no. 4
From: David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Vehicle Scaling System
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:39:22 -0700
From: "Tzeentch" <tzeentch666@*********.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicle Scaling System
Date sent: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:34:27 -0700
Send reply to: shadowrn@*********.com

> From: "Marc Renouf" <renouf@********.com>
> > Having read through the posts pertaining to this thread, I'm
> > afraid I don't see much of a need to scale things in the first place. I
> > mean, you have personal scale, vehicular scale, and naval scale. Those
> > three seem to cover most of what you're going to run into, and they do it
> > in a way that's more or less realistic.
>
> Well. I would agree with you on the vehicle scale issue but not the naval
> scale. As it stands naval vessels with a Hull of 1 are immune to
> conventional weapons. Even hitting it with ATGMs and Bandits will just
> scratch the paint -which I find pretty unrealistic. I'm sure Jon was
> shooting for making sure that aircraft carriers were not taken out by
> ATGM-armed speedboats but it still gives some loopy results. For reference,
> p. 166, CP

There are two seperate but related problem assocated with large vehiles and
the weapons that are designed to deal with them.

The first is empty volume. A ship contains a large volume of space that does
not contain essential operating components. A hit by small arms through light
antitank weapons will have little effect on the ship if it hits one of those areas.
Basicly they have no effect. Granted they are effective if they hit a vital area,
like the engines, fuel tanks or stearing or if they create a large hole below the
water line. But only then and those areas are not a large portion of the ships
total volume.

Second, to deal with this anti ship weapons are either large, cause large
explosions or hit below the water line. A side effect of this is that these same
weapons when used against an individual or small vehicle totally obliderate it,
often with force left over. In Shadowrun where damage and " the dodge roll"
are grouped together this is a big problem. It makes it harder to a void being
hit by a 5 inch naval rifle thousands of meters range then it is a pistol at short
range.

I came up with a house rule consept that seems to deal with the second
problem. There is a maximum damage level for people sized targets. No
matter how powerful the weapon is that is the damage limit. By doing this
there is always a remote possiblity that the shot "missed". At the same time
the weapon can have the large damage code needed to effect armored
vehicles and ships.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato

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