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From:	Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject:	Vehicle Scaling System ( was Re: HELP! Vehicle question!)
Date:	Mon, 8 May 2000 14:52:49 -0700

Message no. 1 From: "Ahrain" <Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com>
> I get your point. THAT is exactly on what I am asking help on.
> What I did was increase the "power" of the attack based on the scale of
the
> vehicle. One of the problems I was having was
>
> First) Keeping the level of damage the way it is between vehicles and
> people.

Hmm? What do you mean? That weapon stats will look alike on each scale?

> Second) The differences between power levels farther up the scale.
> Cyberpirates gives naval scale weaponry as compared to humans. Wouldn't
> vehicles fare a little better? (not much I admit, but a little?) And
> wouldn't a laser from a vehicle (made especially FOR a vehicle AGAINST
> vehicles) do more damage or be harder to stage down if it hit a human?

Most likely. A weapon designed to gut a tank will turn any human into chunky
salsa on a direct hit, I don't care WHAT type of military-grade armor he is
wearing ;)

> This doesn't neccessarily have to be out of the SR universe. This could
> also help those that DO have space in their universe. What happens when
> your PC's try and use a shuttle to attack Zurich Orbital. You could just
> arbitrarily say "NO DAMAGE" or state little damage but there would be at
> least some. Also with this you could figure out exactly what the Thor's
> Hammer (IIRC the name) could do to things (other than just obliterate
them)
> :)

A kinetic kill system would gut ZO, which reminds me...what orbit is ZO
supposed to be in? If I'm not mistaken its just the old international space
station and thus in LEO. Surprised that the life expectancy of the station
is not measured in minutes ;)

> Ken, you're on of hte big gearheads and system converters, any thoughts?

Not overly familiar with how the SWRPG handles scaling since I have not
played that game in about 5 years ;)

Mekton handles scaling very well, although in this case you sort of have to
work in reverse since the "standard" scale in Mekton is 1:1 (about that of a
tank or fighter jet).

However, you can design a fairly decent scaling system and keep most things
exactly as they are in Shadowrun. All it really requires you to do is note
the scale of the vehicle (and in some cases its subsystems/weapons). I think
Signature takes care of the noted SWRPG method of handling large weapons vs
small targets so we really only need to convern ourselves with damage and
scaling up and down.

As a rough guide we can use Body as a rough guide as to the scale of an
object since R2 has Body as a measure of size as well. Weapons are a bit
more difficult to quantify, especially in SR with AV ammo and manpack ATGMS
being readily available.

It's hard to use Rigger 2 and Cyberpirates as a basis for scaling though
since at the high end you simply cannot damage the vessel - which is mighty
simplistic IMHO even for a abstract system like SR :) Cyberpirates is the
worst offender in this regard.

Lesse...
x1/10 Scale (Humans, Small-Arms, Small Drones) [Body 0-1]
x1/5 Scale (Assault Cannons, Smaller Anti-Vehicle weapons (Light-Serious
Damage Level AV weapons), Motorcycles, Cars, Larger Drones) [Body 2-4]
x1 Scale (Heavy Cannons, Missiles,Semis, Fighters, Tanks, Orbital
Workshacks) [Body 5-10]
x10 Scale (Light Naval Weapons (Light and Moderate DL Naval weapons),
Corvettes, Destroyers, Submarines, Orbital Habitat) [Hull 1-5]
x100 Scale (Aircraft Carriers, Battleships, Large Space Stations) [Hull 6+]

DAMAGE
Scaling UP: A lower scale weapon attacking a higher scale target has its
Power reduced by an amount equal to the units Armor/2 for each "step" up.
Anti-Vehicular weapons ignore the first level of reduction. The weapons
Damage Level is reduced by one evel for each step. AV ammo does not cancel
this reduction. For purposes of successes staging up damages it requires the
difference between the two scales. To figure the difference multiply the
scale by 20 for each and subtract the firing scale from the target scale.

For example, Snickersnak peeks out from behind his cardboard house in the
Barrens with his 20mm smoothbore Panther at the ready (sold a lot of
aluminum cans lately). He bustles on down to the SeaTac airport ready to
test his new bang-bang. It's not long before he spots and old Fed-Boeing
Eagle just begging to be shot. Cackling like mad he pulls the charging
handle and feeds a round into the chamber. Bracing against a wall he aims
and pulls the trigger.

The Eagle is a x1 Scale vehicle and the Panther is 1/5 Scale. Snickernsnak
can't afford AV ammo so we don't have to worry about that. The Eagles Armor
is 10. Since the Panther is one step down on the Scaling chart it has its
power reduced by (10/2=)5 points. The Panthers Damage Level is reduced by
one level as well, so the final damage code is 13S.

To stage the damage up would require (1/5 x20=) 4 subtracted from (1
x20=)20; or 16 successes on Snickersnaks part!

Scaling DOWN: This is essentially the reverse of the above. Each level
"lower" on the Scaling Chart that the target is from the firing unit/weapon
increase the Damage Level by one step. In addition, increase the Power of
the attack by a multiple of (difference in levels +1). To determine staging
figure only the difference for the target (ie the targets Scale x20).

For example, an nearby M1A3 getting ready for a museum display sees
Snickersnak fire his boomstick at the Eagle. Feeling frisky, the crew loads
a HEAP shell in the still fully functional 120mm and fires on 'Snak.

The 120mm cannon is a 1:1 scale weapon and does (lets say) 20D at that
scale. The shot hits so Snickersnak is in for a whole new defifintion of
hurt. Snickernsnak is a 1:10 scale target and the shell is 1:1. That is 2
levels of difference, the weapon can't go past deadly but its Power is
increased to (2+1) x3 its usual amount AND only needs 2 successes to stage
up in this case. Snickersnak will have to resist a 60D attack. Good luck
Snik!

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'

From:	Ahrain Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com
Subject:	Vehicle Scaling System ( was Re: HELP! Vehicle question!)
Date:	Tue, 9 May 2000 03:00:58 -0400

Message no. 2 ----- Original Message -----
From: Tzeentch <tzeentch666@*********.net>
Subject: Vehicle Scaling System ( was Re: HELP! Vehicle question!)

> Hmm? What do you mean? That weapon stats will look alike on each scale?

What I meant was the way they are dealt with.

Example..The Ares Firelance from FoF. It is a vehicular mounted weapon.
Designed as such I wouldn't think it should have it's damage level reduced
against vehicles, but.......

>
> Most likely. A weapon designed to gut a tank will turn any human into
chunky
> salsa on a direct hit, I don't care WHAT type of military-grade armor he
is
> wearing ;)

Amen.....Unless it's Power Armor, but that's a whole other bag of chips.
BTW, where would power armor be on your scaling chart. x1/5? That's where
I would guess.

> A kinetic kill system would gut ZO, which reminds me...what orbit is ZO
> supposed to be in? If I'm not mistaken its just the old international
space
> station and thus in LEO. Surprised that the life expectancy of the station
> is not measured in minutes ;)

Unless it's in Geo over "International Waters" but I don't know how that
would go over.
Actually it IS in LEO and was America's Freedom space station. It says in
Corporate Shadowfiles (yes some of us still use it) that it is aprox 560 km
up. Not that many are really interested in that fact.(yes I know you
probably ment it as a joke, but I have been told I have no sense of humor
anyway ;P ) ^_^

> Not overly familiar with how the SWRPG handles scaling since I have not
> played that game in about 5 years ;)
>
> Mekton handles scaling very well, although in this case you sort of have
to
> work in reverse since the "standard" scale in Mekton is 1:1 (about that of
a
> tank or fighter jet).
>
> However, you can design a fairly decent scaling system and keep most
things
> exactly as they are in Shadowrun. All it really requires you to do is note
> the scale of the vehicle (and in some cases its subsystems/weapons). I
think
> Signature takes care of the noted SWRPG method of handling large weapons
vs
> small targets so we really only need to convern ourselves with damage and
> scaling up and down.

What do you mean? IIRC, signature is just signature with very little if any
varience depending on the size or profile of the vehicle in question. So,
how does that handle things?

Example the CSS Stuart-class Corvette (a 1000 to 5000 ton ship according to
the Hull chart) has a signature of 3..... so does the Colorado Craft
Cigarette Hydrofoil (a 26 to 199 kg boat) both combustion engines.
Signature is the vulnerability to electromagnetic or thermal detection and
is the TN for sensors. Wouldn't a larger vehicle have a lower sig?

I figure the lower scale the sensor the easier it is to pick things up but
also the more reduced range you have. I may be wrong, I am not well
informed on how RL radar and sonar work (I know the pronciples, bounce radio
or sound waves and read the returning signal; but not many of the specifics)

> It's hard to use Rigger 2 and Cyberpirates as a basis for scaling though
> since at the high end you simply cannot damage the vessel - which is
mighty
> simplistic IMHO even for a abstract system like SR :) Cyberpirates is the
> worst offender in this regard.

With this I do agree.

> Lesse...
> x1/10 Scale (Humans, Small-Arms, Small Drones) [Body 0-1]
> x1/5 Scale (Assault Cannons, Smaller Anti-Vehicle weapons (Light-Serious
> Damage Level AV weapons), Motorcycles, Cars, Larger Drones) [Body 2-4]
> x1 Scale (Heavy Cannons, Missiles,Semis, Fighters, Tanks, Orbital
> Workshacks) [Body 5-10]
> x10 Scale (Light Naval Weapons (Light and Moderate DL Naval weapons),
> Corvettes, Destroyers, Submarines, Orbital Habitat) [Hull 1-5]
> x100 Scale (Aircraft Carriers, Battleships, Large Space Stations) [Hull
6+]

OK one big thing. EFA Varient fire a generic 20D heavy cannon at a ship with
a hull of 1 and 2 points of Bulwark ( a laughable ship I know but bare with
me here) the power of the attack is reduced by (2/1=1) 1 point and 1 damage
level, so final damage of 19S, to stage up ((1x20 ) subtracted from
(10x20 0)0) he would need 180 successes (yeah right). OK, the ship
would still only roll 1 die for resistance (hull 1). Do you see a problem?
or do you think that should be about right?

<BIG SNIP>

x1/10 = Character
x1/5 = Speeder
x1 = Walker
x10 = Starfighter
x100 = Capital
x??? = Death Star

All in all, it works very well. I was trying so hard to work with what I
had I forgot completely about Mekton. I might also have to do with that a
friend owns it and it's at his house right now :P

Many, many, thanks.

>
> Ken

Ahrain

From:	Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject:	Vehicle Scaling System ( was Re: HELP! Vehicle question!)
Date:	Tue, 9 May 2000 01:02:50 -0700

Message no. 3 From: "Ahrain" <Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com>
> Example..The Ares Firelance from FoF. It is a vehicular mounted weapon.
> Designed as such I wouldn't think it should have it's damage level reduced
> against vehicles, but.......

Well, when all is said and done SR does not exactly have an even progression
of damage. Hard to do on a D6 based system with TNs that become increasingly
unlikely to be reached past 6. Hence "hacks" such as the existing vehicle
damage rules and the naval damage scale.

As more stuff gets tacked on I doubt it will get any more even. That's my
opinion anyways.

> > Most likely. A weapon designed to gut a tank will turn any human into
> chunky
> > salsa on a direct hit, I don't care WHAT type of military-grade armor he
> is
> > wearing ;)
>
> Amen.....Unless it's Power Armor, but that's a whole other bag of chips.
> BTW, where would power armor be on your scaling chart. x1/5? That's
where
> I would guess.

Yes, most power armor would gall in the x1/5 scale (Roadstriker in Mekton).
Hardsuits and other form-fitting gear is 1/10.

> > A kinetic kill system would gut ZO, which reminds me...what orbit is ZO
> > supposed to be in? If I'm not mistaken its just the old international
> space
> > station and thus in LEO. Surprised that the life expectancy of the
station
> > is not measured in minutes ;)
>
> Unless it's in Geo over "International Waters" but I don't know how that
> would go over.
> Actually it IS in LEO and was America's Freedom space station. It says in
> Corporate Shadowfiles (yes some of us still use it) that it is aprox 560
km
> up. Not that many are really interested in that fact.(yes I know you
> probably ment it as a joke, but I have been told I have no sense of humor
> anyway ;P ) ^_^

Well, in Shadowrun SOMETHING would happen to prevent the possibility of
blowing ZO out of the sky - not matter how untenable the logic ;) After all,
if the players could blow ZO up that would change the setting considerably.

> > Signature takes care of the noted SWRPG method of handling large weapons
> vs
> > small targets so we really only need to convern ourselves with damage
and
> > scaling up and down.
>
> What do you mean? IIRC, signature is just signature with very little if
any
> varience depending on the size or profile of the vehicle in question. So,
> how does that handle things?

Signature is a function of size (at least in part) going by the text on p.
61, Rigger 2. It's also a function of how easy it is to detect. Which in my
opinion is FAR more important then its physical size - especially when
dealing with vehicle weapons which are probably using sensor-enhanced
gunnery of one sort or another. Even the gunner on the Death Star uses
sensors to track and fire on targets. He's not eyeballing the Rebel ships
out the window :)

Since humans and small targets like motorbikes tend to have high Signatures
that means they are harder to hit. Generally the same situation as in SWRPG
or Mekton when dealing with scale - you can of course make Signature even
more important in SR by scaling the Signature up or down at will - perhaps
even similar to weapon Power but in reverse (meaning a x1 scale weapon
firing on a x1/10 target would use the targets signature x3.

> Example the CSS Stuart-class Corvette (a 1000 to 5000 ton ship according
to
> the Hull chart) has a signature of 3..... so does the Colorado Craft
> Cigarette Hydrofoil (a 26 to 199 kg boat) both combustion engines.
> Signature is the vulnerability to electromagnetic or thermal detection and
> is the TN for sensors. Wouldn't a larger vehicle have a lower sig?

Well, most likely yes. But Rigger and Cyberpirates both roll a lot of
factors into a 1-10 rating. Size is just one.

> I figure the lower scale the sensor the easier it is to pick things up but
> also the more reduced range you have. I may be wrong, I am not well
> informed on how RL radar and sonar work (I know the pronciples, bounce
radio
> or sound waves and read the returning signal; but not many of the
specifics)

Well, it's academic in Shadowrun anyways. Applying too much "real world"
knowledge to how vehicles or weapons work in SR will just make your head
hurt.

> > It's hard to use Rigger 2 and Cyberpirates as a basis for scaling though
> > since at the high end you simply cannot damage the vessel - which is
> mighty
> > simplistic IMHO even for a abstract system like SR :) Cyberpirates is
the
> > worst offender in this regard.
>
> With this I do agree.

> OK one big thing. EFA Varient fire a generic 20D heavy cannon at a ship
with
> a hull of 1 and 2 points of Bulwark ( a laughable ship I know but bare
with
> me here) the power of the attack is reduced by (2/1=1) 1 point and 1
damage
> level, so final damage of 19S, to stage up ((1x20 ) subtracted from
> (10x20 0)0) he would need 180 successes (yeah right). OK, the ship
> would still only roll 1 die for resistance (hull 1). Do you see a
problem?
> or do you think that should be about right?

Personally? No I don't see a huge problem with it, at least in that specific
example. Using a SR light pistol on a tank is not going to get you very far
for example - I don't care what kind of super-duper reality defying
anti-vehicular ammo you have that thing loaded with or how good a shot you
are. And at first glance it seemed to prevent that, which IMHO is "Good
(tm)" Some things just don't necessarily come down to lucky shots (which is
essentially what staging damage is). If you're wondering how I came up with
Scale x20 I copped out and picked a number that equaled "2" for 1/10 scale
;) I also based the damage multilpier on the naval scale for Cyberpirates
(you'll notice that x10 scale= x5 damage at the 1/10 scale).

I'm not saying its perfect, its not playtested or even given a thorough
reality checking ;) And of course it does not solve the inherent problems
with Rigger 2 (notably the ability to construct Armor 40+ vehicles) or
Shadowruns vehicle combat system.

> x1/10 = Character
> x1/5 = Speeder
> x1 = Walker
> x10 = Starfighter
> x100 = Capital
> x??? = Death Star

x??? is Excessive Scale in Mekton FYI ;)

> All in all, it works very well. I was trying so hard to work with what I
> had I forgot completely about Mekton. I might also have to do with that a
> friend owns it and it's at his house right now :P

Mekton ROCKS ;) Personally its probably one of my favorite "build your own
setting" series of books, and handles the giant robot genre FAR better then
GURPS Mecha. I can't recommend Mekton Zeta enough (for those that can find
it).

> Many, many, thanks.

No problemo. Lemme know how you eventually look at handling this, or if you
want any help/feedback.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'

From:	Ahrain Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com
Subject:	Vehicle Scaling System ( was Re: HELP! Vehicle question!)
Date:	Tue, 9 May 2000 12:40:57 -0400

Message no. 4 ----- Original Message -----
From: Tzeentch <tzeentch666@*********.net>
Subject: Re: Vehicle Scaling System ( was Re: HELP! Vehicle question!)

> Well, in Shadowrun SOMETHING would happen to prevent the possibility of
> blowing ZO out of the sky - not matter how untenable the logic ;) After
all,
> if the players could blow ZO up that would change the setting
considerably.

Klenex stock would sky rocket because alot of copr execs would be balling
their eyes out screaming "IT"S NOT FAIR, I WAS SOOOO RICH" boo hoo. :P

> Signature is a function of size (at least in part) going by the text on p.
> 61, Rigger 2. It's also a function of how easy it is to detect. Which in
my
> opinion is FAR more important then its physical size - especially when
> dealing with vehicle weapons which are probably using sensor-enhanced
> gunnery of one sort or another. Even the gunner on the Death Star uses
> sensors to track and fire on targets. He's not eyeballing the Rebel ships
> out the window :)
>
> Since humans and small targets like motorbikes tend to have high
Signatures
> that means they are harder to hit. Generally the same situation as in
SWRPG
> or Mekton when dealing with scale - you can of course make Signature even
> more important in SR by scaling the Signature up or down at will - perhaps
> even similar to weapon Power but in reverse (meaning a x1 scale weapon
> firing on a x1/10 target would use the targets signature x3.

That's partially what i was thinking, but wouldn't ( in the below example)
the ship have a lower sig? Would't a deisel engine of that size put out ALOT
more heat? And would't it have a higher electromagnetic sig BECAUSE of it's
size? *shrug* Like you said SR is a great game but like them all it has
it's problem areas. :)

> > Example the CSS Stuart-class Corvette (a 1000 to 5000 ton ship according
to
> > the Hull chart) has a signature of 3..... so does the Colorado Craft
> > Cigarette Hydrofoil (a 26 to 199 kg boat) both combustion engines.
> > Signature is the vulnerability to electromagnetic or thermal detection
and
> > is the TN for sensors. Wouldn't a larger vehicle have a lower sig?

> Well, it's academic in Shadowrun anyways. Applying too much "real world"
> knowledge to how vehicles or weapons work in SR will just make your head
> hurt.

head....swelling...brain....oozing... :P

> I'm not saying its perfect, its not playtested or even given a thorough
> reality checking ;) And of course it does not solve the inherent problems
> with Rigger 2 (notably the ability to construct Armor 40+ vehicles) or
> Shadowruns vehicle combat system.

BTW, any ideas on the combat system (not to neccessarily star up another
bitch session with others on the list) I am just looking for alternatives
and to expand what I run with the feel I like to run it with.

> x??? is Excessive Scale in Mekton FYI ;)

Hey, GM, can I play Unicron??? HHMMMM?? :D

> Mekton ROCKS ;) Personally its probably one of my favorite "build your own
> setting" series of books, and handles the giant robot genre FAR better
then
> GURPS Mecha. I can't recommend Mekton Zeta enough (for those that can find
> it).

Unfortunately, Mekton Zeta is what I occasionally have access to. :( But,
Ebay is a wonderous thing.:)

> No problemo. Lemme know how you eventually look at handling this, or if
you
> want any help/feedback.

Becareful what you offer, someone just might take it. :}
I'm not a devoted gearhead, I don't have the patience for it sometimes.
(though my players would argue that fact) :)

> Ken
> ---------------------------
> There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about
who's
> got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we
see
> and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
> Cosmo, 'Sneakers'

Ahrain

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