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Message no. 1
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Vehicle Signature
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:45:10 EDT
Okay, for the last couple of hours I have been mulling over the signature
ratings for vehicles as given in the R2, as per the power plant given to a
type of vehicle. And I found myself scratching my head over some of the
numbers given, and was wondering why signature is based off of the power plant
(except when considering Aural Signature) and not the Chassis of the vehicle.

So, I am toying around the following as a potential house rule for here in
Lafayette (and on Hoosier Hacker House) :

Signature = 8 - Body

Okay, I thought of this from the description Jon gave in R2 about determining
the signature of people and critters, and was wondering why that was not
applied to vehicles also, in some comparative sense.

So, here is my reasoning.

A normal human has a signature of 6 and weighs somewhere in the Body 2 vehicle
range. So, vehicles with a Body of 2 have a signature of 6.

A troll has a signature of a 5, and corresponds roughly to the same weight as
a Body 3 vehicle (200 - 750 kg) in terms of their Body weight. This would
also correspond to a vehicle with a Body of 3 having a signature of 5 also.

And it would go so on,

Body 4 = Signature of 4,
Body 5 = Signature of 3,
Body 6+ = Signature of 2.

It would mean some of the drones would have higher prices (like the Body 0
'Car' Drone and the Micro UAV Rotorcraft Drone with electric engines), so I
even came up with modifiers that also depend on the type of power plant in the
vehicle.

Electrical Power Plants = +2 to Signature
Gasoline and Methane = No Change
Diesel = -1 to Signature
Jet = -2 to Signature

There are also some situational modifiers which could also benefit a vehicle
when they could occur ... like Partial Cover and Total Cover (or whatever it
is called).

These two things do apply Handling modifiers, which would also be in addition
to any given by the Gm for things like Tight or Restricted Terrain and the
like.

Partial Cover could be described as one vehicle being really close to another
so that from an exceptional distance the two can almost not be told apart. I
would have to say that this form of cover is not effective within half the
current range of the sensors which are tracking the vehicle. Partial Cover
gives an additional +2 to Signature for the hiding vehicle, and this is also
the same modifier to Handling for the hiding vehicle also.

An example of Partial Cover is from Top Gun with the 4 of the 'Migs' at the
end of the movie ... there were originally two and then there were four once
the range closed enough for the radars onboard the Tomcats to tell them apart
from each other.

Total Cover is possible when one vehicle is close to another and is beyond
half the range of sensors that are currently tracking both vehicles. Total
Cover gives +4 to signature to the hiding vehicle, and this +4 also applies to
any Handling tests to the hiding vehicle while trying to hide.

There is one loophole wherein Total Cover can be available when the hiding
vehicle is less than half the range from the tracking sensor. This is done by
hiding very closely to another vehicle that is much larger than the one trying
to hide. To be able to do this, the Body of the larger vehicle must be at
least 2 points higher than the hiding vehicle's.

An example of Total Cover comes from two possible movies ... the first from
Down Periscope when the submarine hid underneath the much -LARGER- oil tanker
above itself. The second comes from, and I don't remember the name of the
movie, when a smaller plane flew underneath a much larger passenger jet.

Then, there is another bonus to signature for aircraft if they happen to be
flying NOE (Nape of Earth). This bonus is equal to +1 (which is also the
Handling modifier for flying at such low levels), plus the Terrain modifier
(+1 for Restricted Terrains and +2 for Tight Terrains).

Another further bonus to signature for all vehicles depends on the weather in
the immediate area at the same time.

What do you guys think of it?

-Herc
--------The Best Mechanic you could ever have.
Message no. 2
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Vehicle Signature
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:39:56 -0500
On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:45:10 EDT Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM> writes:
>Okay, for the last couple of hours I have been mulling over the
signature
>ratings for vehicles as given in the R2, as per the power plant given to
a
>type of vehicle. And I found myself scratching my head over some of the
>numbers given, and was wondering why signature is based off of the power
plant
>(except when considering Aural Signature) and not the Chassis of the
vehicle.

How about because in most cases the engine you pick only applies to one
chassis and where it doesn't, the body IS factored into the sig :)

>So, I am toying around the following as a potential house rule for here
in
>Lafayette (and on Hoosier Hacker House) :
>
> Signature = 8 - Body
>
>Okay, I thought of this from the description Jon gave in R2 about
determining
>the signature of people and critters, and was wondering why that was not
>applied to vehicles also, in some comparative sense.
>
>So, here is my reasoning.
>
>A normal human has a signature of 6 and weighs somewhere in the Body 2
vehicle
>range. So, vehicles with a Body of 2 have a signature of 6.

Put your hand on the hood of a car and you'll burn yourself because the
engine gets hotter than a human body does ...

>A troll has a signature of a 5, and corresponds roughly to the same
weight as
>a Body 3 vehicle (200 - 750 kg) in terms of their Body weight. This
would
>also correspond to a vehicle with a Body of 3 having a signature of 5
also.

This could be from increase in size or an increase in Metabolism to keep
all that body mass fed ... or both ... I'm not sure how size affects
metabolism / body temp ...

>And it would go so on,
>
>Body 4 = Signature of 4,
>Body 5 = Signature of 3,
>Body 6+ = Signature of 2.
>
>It would mean some of the drones would have higher prices (like the Body
0
>'Car' Drone and the Micro UAV Rotorcraft Drone with electric engines),
so I
>even came up with modifiers that also depend on the type of power plant
in the
>vehicle.
>
>Electrical Power Plants = +2 to Signature
>Gasoline and Methane = No Change
>Diesel = -1 to Signature
>Jet = -2 to Signature

I think Methane actually generates less heat (don't know about noise)
than gasoline ... also you're make it a LOT easier to get a missile lock
on a body 0 drone ... What about +2 sig for Methane and x2 for Electric?

<SNIP Situational Modifiers>

>Another further bonus to signature for all vehicles depends on the
weather in
>the immediate area at the same time.
>
>What do you guys think of it?
>
>-Herc
>--------The Best Mechanic you could ever have.

Well, the situational modifers are already there mostly except getting
partial cover for being close to another vehicle ... Still, I think they
should modify the sensor tests, instead of raising the signature (there
is a slight difference) ... and it wouldn't apply to all sensor types ...


Aside from that it's an interesting idea but I think the basis is off (no
offense :)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 3
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Vehicle Signature
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:35:59 EDT
In a message dated 7/18/1998 12:58:41 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

> >Electrical Power Plants = +2 to Signature
> >Gasoline and Methane = No Change
> >Diesel = -1 to Signature
> >Jet = -2 to Signature
>
> I think Methane actually generates less heat (don't know about noise)
> than gasoline ... also you're make it a LOT easier to get a missile lock
> on a body 0 drone ... What about +2 sig for Methane and x2 for Electric?
>
Because as a comparison, the Aztechnology Aguilar assault helicopter only has
a 3-4 point advance while on electric engine mode than it does with a liquid
fuel type going. And how did he make a Bod 0 drone easier to lock-on to? 8 -
0 is still an 8???

-K
Message no. 4
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Vehicle Signature
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:04:56 -0500
On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:35:59 EDT K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 7/18/1998 12:58:41 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>dghost@****.COM writes:

>> >Electrical Power Plants = +2 to Signature
>> >Gasoline and Methane = No Change
>> >Diesel = -1 to Signature
>> >Jet = -2 to Signature
>>
>> I think Methane actually generates less heat (don't know about noise)
>> than gasoline ... also you're make it a LOT easier to get a missile
lock
>> on a body 0 drone ... What about +2 sig for Methane and x2 for
Electric?

>Because as a comparison, the Aztechnology Aguilar assault helicopter
only has
>a 3-4 point advance while on electric engine mode than it does with a
liquid
>fuel type going. And how did he make a Bod 0 drone easier to lock-on
to? 8 -
>0 is still an 8???
>
>-K

Yeah but in R2, Bod 0 drones have 16 Sig ... except apparently the walker
but I think that was an error ...

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 5
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Fwd: Vehicle Signature
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:24:22 EDT
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From: Airwasp@***.com
Return-path: <Airwasp@***.com>
To: Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Re: Vehicle Signature
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:23:54 EDT
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In a message dated 7/18/98 12:58:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

> >Okay, for the last couple of hours I have been mulling over the
> signature
> >ratings for vehicles as given in the R2, as per the power plant given to
> a
> >type of vehicle. And I found myself scratching my head over some of the
> >numbers given, and was wondering why signature is based off of the power
> plant
> >(except when considering Aural Signature) and not the Chassis of the
> vehicle.
>
> How about because in most cases the engine you pick only applies to one
> chassis and where it doesn't, the body IS factored into the sig :)

I can see where that is the case, but I was looking at it from the pov of RCS
(Radar Cross Section). Wherein something that is normally a large vehicle has
a much lower signature than a smaller vehicle, normally.

> >So, I am toying around the following as a potential house rule for here
> in
> >Lafayette (and on Hoosier Hacker House) :
> >
> > Signature = 8 - Body
> >
> >Okay, I thought of this from the description Jon gave in R2 about
> determining
> >the signature of people and critters, and was wondering why that was not
> >applied to vehicles also, in some comparative sense.
> >
> >So, here is my reasoning.
> >
> >A normal human has a signature of 6 and weighs somewhere in the Body 2
> vehicle
> >range. So, vehicles with a Body of 2 have a signature of 6.
>
> Put your hand on the hood of a car and you'll burn yourself because the
> engine gets hotter than a human body does ...

Ah, but that is the thermal signature of the vehicle. A normal radar does not
go by normal thermal detection, it detects using the signature of the vehicle.
If you happen to be using a thermographic sensor, then yes, picking the
vehicle up will happen, and yes, you will burn your hand when touching the
hood of a vehicle that has been active for a while.

> >A troll has a signature of a 5, and corresponds roughly to the same
> weight as
> >a Body 3 vehicle (200 - 750 kg) in terms of their Body weight. This
> would
> >also correspond to a vehicle with a Body of 3 having a signature of 5
> also.
>
> This could be from increase in size or an increase in Metabolism to keep
> all that body mass fed ... or both ... I'm not sure how size affects
> metabolism / body temp ...

Yes, size does affect metabolism, but, I was using the reasoning that Jon used
in R2. A standard person has a signature of 6. Anything larger or smaller
than a normal person will have a different signature. Jon basically said that
for every increment of three that something is larger or smaller than that,
decreases or increases the signature by 1. Something three times smaller than
a normal person has a sig of 7, whereas something three times larger than a
person has a sig of 5.

And I am wrong about the troll having a sig of 5, they would still have a sig
of 6, what I should have said instead was a Nordic Giant would have a
signature of 5. Mea culpa.

> >And it would go so on,
> >
> >Body 4 = Signature of 4,
> >Body 5 = Signature of 3,
> >Body 6+ = Signature of 2.
> >
> >It would mean some of the drones would have higher prices (like the Body
> 0
> >'Car' Drone and the Micro UAV Rotorcraft Drone with electric engines),
> so I
> >even came up with modifiers that also depend on the type of power plant
> in the
> >vehicle.
> >
> >Electrical Power Plants = +2 to Signature
> >Gasoline and Methane = No Change
> >Diesel = -1 to Signature
> >Jet = -2 to Signature
>
> I think Methane actually generates less heat (don't know about noise)
> than gasoline ... also you're make it a LOT easier to get a missile lock
> on a body 0 drone ... What about +2 sig for Methane and x2 for Electric?

I don't know much about methane engines either, but I do like the +2 and x2
mods you give for them though, but x2 sounds awefully high, perhaps a +4 mod
to signature for having an Electrical Power Plant ?

> <SNIP Situational Modifiers>
>
> >Another further bonus to signature for all vehicles depends on the
> weather in
> >the immediate area at the same time.
> >
> >What do you guys think of it?
> >
> >-Herc
> >--------The Best Mechanic you could ever have.
>
> Well, the situational modifers are already there mostly except getting
> partial cover for being close to another vehicle ... Still, I think they
> should modify the sensor tests, instead of raising the signature (there
> is a slight difference) ... and it wouldn't apply to all sensor types ...

Either way you put the modifiers in, it still works out in the end, either the
modifier applies to the vehicle or the sensors trying to track it.

> Aside from that it's an interesting idea but I think the basis is off (no
> offense :)

Hey, the basis may be off, but that is why I posted it here to get more
opinions. But I do believe I have something worthwhile here though.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you could ever have.

--part0_900818663_boundary--
Message no. 6
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Vehicle Signature
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 00:49:19 EDT
In a message dated 7/18/1998 4:12:26 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

> Yeah but in R2, Bod 0 drones have 16 Sig ... except apparently the walker
> but I think that was an error ...
>
ah, okay, now that makes more sense...
-K

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