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Message no. 1
From: ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM>
Subject: vehicles missing
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:31:04 +0100
Hi there!

I just got Rigger2(a bit late, I know), and noticed
that FASA folks forgot to convert the cars from
the Germany sourcebook (L800 and so on).

Has somebody converted them to R2 up to now?
Why are they missing?

ArcLight
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
ICQ 14322211
Message no. 2
From: Adam J <adamj@*********.HTML.COM>
Subject: Re: vehicles missing
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 20:00:43 -0700
At 18:31 1/16/99 +0100, ArcLight wrote:

>I just got Rigger2(a bit late, I know), and noticed
>that FASA folks forgot to convert the cars from
>the Germany sourcebook (L800 and so on).
>
>Has somebody converted them to R2 up to now?

Not as far as I know..

>Why are they missing?

Jon probably didn't own the Germany sourcebook. <g>

-Adam
--
< http://shadowrun.html.com/tss / adamj@*********.html.com >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / ICQ# 2350330 >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< ShadowFAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq >
< "I know one thing, it's about damn time I got new entrance music.">
< -Mankind, 01/10/99 RAW is WAR. >
Message no. 3
From: ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM>
Subject: AW: vehicles missing
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:50:27 +0100
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]Im
> Auftrag von Adam J
> Gesendet am: Sonntag, 17. Januar 1999 0401
> An: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Betreff: Re: vehicles missing
>
> At 18:31 1/16/99 +0100, ArcLight wrote:
>
> >I just got Rigger2(a bit late, I know), and noticed
> >that FASA folks forgot to convert the cars from
> >the Germany sourcebook (L800 and so on).
> >
> >Has somebody converted them to R2 up to now?
>
> Not as far as I know..
>
> >Why are they missing?
>
> Jon probably didn't own the Germany sourcebook. <g>

Quick Question: Are they in the english version of Rigger1?

ArcLight
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
ICQ 14322211
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: vehicles missing
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:41:33 +0100
According to ArcLight, at 18:31 on 16 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> I just got Rigger2(a bit late, I know), and noticed
> that FASA folks forgot to convert the cars from
> the Germany sourcebook (L800 and so on).
>
> Has somebody converted them to R2 up to now?

I haven't, but I might someday when I feel like it :) If you want to
convert them, I suggest getting hold of The Shop (whose URL I can never
remember) and try to build vehicles that are as close as possible, stat-
wise, to those in the Germany sourcebook.

> Why are they missing?

Probably because they're only in the German (FanPro) edition, not the
English (FASA) one.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: AW: vehicles missing
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:41:33 +0100
According to ArcLight, at 10:50 on 17 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

[vehicles from Germany Sourcebook]
> Quick Question: Are they in the english version of Rigger1?

No. The _only_ book they appear in, AFAIK, is the German edition of the
Germany Sourcebook. They were never published in English, unless you count
the article in one of the NAGEEs by (IIRC) Christian Schoer.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: Jon Szeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
Subject: Re: vehicles missing
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 06:42:03 EST
ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM> wrote,

> Hi there!
>
> I just got Rigger2(a bit late, I know), and noticed
> that FASA folks forgot to convert the cars from
> the Germany sourcebook (L800 and so on).
>
> Has somebody converted them to R2 up to now?
> Why are they missing?

The reason they are missing is because there never were any new vehicles in
the *Germany Sourcebook*. On the other hand, *Deutschland in den Schatten*,
the original text the Germans wrote, had a chapter describing new vehicles
and equipment.

Since I wasn't writing for FASA (or having any connections with them
whatsoever) at the time they were translating and developing the Germany
Sourcebook into English, I really cannot say why they were not included.
My best guess as a freelancer would probably suspect word count.

I had thought about doing R2 conversions for the German vehicles, but that
got shot down by FASA for 2 reasons: (1) they aren't part of official FASA
canon (stuff written by FanPro or any other foreign publisher isn't
official, unless FASA wants to incorporate it, and Mike, unlike previous
developers, exerts a lot more control over what gets into SR continuity),
and (2) there were already far too many vehicles as it is in other FASA
products (169 vehicles, drones, and variants), that it would have exceeded
both the time deadline AND word count.

AFAIK there aren't any R2 conversions for the German vehicles. You might
want to ask Barbie, Sandman, Tobias, or some of the other German list
members about this.

-- Jon
Message no. 7
From: Peter Mikulsky <petermikulsky@***.COM>
Subject: Re: vehicles missing
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:31:28 +0100
ArcLight asked:



>Hi there!
>
>I just got Rigger2(a bit late, I know), and noticed
>that FASA folks forgot to convert the cars from
>the Germany sourcebook (L800 and so on).
>
>Has somebody converted them to R2 up to now?
>Why are they missing?
>

The Germany Sourcebook was written by FanPro (the german company how
published the SR-Stuff) for SR1 und the equipment was munchkin at this date.
That maybe the reason why FASA skiped the equipment complete, even after
FanPro adjust the equipment to SR2 stats.

I found myself unable to convert the vehicles for my own campaign, I have
tryed once and the result wasn't pleasend. If someone will convert the
vehicles to R2 standart I will supply the stats for the vehicles (including
variants) from the german version of the RBB.

-Archangel
Message no. 8
From: ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM>
Subject: AW: vehicles missing
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:30:49 +0100
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]Im
> Auftrag von Peter Mikulsky
> Gesendet am: Sonntag, 17. Januar 1999 1131
> An: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Betreff: Re: vehicles missing

<snip>

> I found myself unable to convert the vehicles for my own campaign, I have
> tryed once and the result wasn't pleasend. If someone will convert the
> vehicles to R2 standart I will supply the stats for the vehicles
> (including
> variants) from the german version of the RBB.

I am currently working on this, so mail me if you want them.

ArcLight
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
NO ONE IS SAFE FROM A MICROWAVE
ICQ 14322211
Message no. 9
From: Peter Mikulsky <petermikulsky@***.COM>
Subject: Re: AW: vehicles missing
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:50:54 +0100
Hello ArkLight,

thanks for that offer. I would like to have them when you have them ready.
If I can help you please be free to ask.

-Archangel
Message no. 10
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: vehicles missing
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:55:38 +0100
And so it came to happen that Peter Mikulsky wrote in reply to ArcLight:

> >Hi there!
> >
> >I just got Rigger2(a bit late, I know), and noticed
> >that FASA folks forgot to convert the cars from
> >the Germany sourcebook (L800 and so on).
> >
> >Has somebody converted them to R2 up to now?
> >Why are they missing?
> >
>
> The Germany Sourcebook was written by FanPro (the german company how
> published the SR-Stuff) for SR1 und the equipment was munchkin at this date.
> That maybe the reason why FASA skiped the equipment complete, even after
> FanPro adjust the equipment to SR2 stats.

And probably did good so, cause even after F&P got the stuff rewritten
most of the Vehicles where a terror for many a GM (IMO). The Runners
wanted them but moaned on the other Hand that the Corps got them too.
Anyway.

> I found myself unable to convert the vehicles for my own campaign, I have
> tryed once and the result wasn't pleasend. If someone will convert the
> vehicles to R2 standart I will supply the stats for the vehicles (including
> variants) from the german version of the RBB.

Rejoice every Germany in the Shadows admirer! I've heard that the Rigger
2 will be released in german Language sometimes this year. That is if
FanPro will get it in time. Those Boys already got quite some things to
get done so I doubt it. Anyway, IF they will do it in time, the Stats
for the german vehicles will most likely be implemented. And for the
rumour section, FanPro has declared that the Rigger Black Book is
currently out of Print and will not be put back to print. That is why I
figure those boys will do the R2 thingy in this Year. The only
explanation. Hope they do a good job then.
Although I realy do not understand why anyone with the heart to say "I
am not a munchkin!" would ever consider using german gear. But than,
Germany stands for Quality, right boys 'n girls?
;o)

--
---> Steadfast...Selfproclaimed Protector of Gerber BABY's
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Uh, 089 of 200 it states in Gerber BABY...
Message no. 11
From: ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM>
Subject: AW: vehicles missing
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:44:26 +0100
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]Im
> Auftrag von Steadfast
> Gesendet am: Mittwoch, 20. Januar 1999 0156
> An: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Betreff: Re: vehicles missing
>

<snip>

> > The Germany Sourcebook was written by FanPro (the german company how
> > published the SR-Stuff) for SR1 und the equipment was munchkin
> at this date.
> > That maybe the reason why FASA skiped the equipment complete, even after
> > FanPro adjust the equipment to SR2 stats.
>
> And probably did good so, cause even after F&P got the stuff rewritten
> most of the Vehicles where a terror for many a GM (IMO). The Runners
> wanted them but moaned on the other Hand that the Corps got them too.
> Anyway.

But you have to admit that their design is a lot better than those
FASA-ones.
Especially the Mercedes L800

> > I found myself unable to convert the vehicles for my own
> campaign, I have
> > tryed once and the result wasn't pleasend. If someone will convert the
> > vehicles to R2 standart I will supply the stats for the
> vehicles (including
> > variants) from the german version of the RBB.
>
> Rejoice every Germany in the Shadows admirer! I've heard that the Rigger
> 2 will be released in german Language sometimes this year. That is if
> FanPro will get it in time. Those Boys already got quite some things to
> get done so I doubt it. Anyway, IF they will do it in time, the Stats
> for the german vehicles will most likely be implemented. And for the
> rumour section, FanPro has declared that the Rigger Black Book is
> currently out of Print and will not be put back to print. That is why I
> figure those boys will do the R2 thingy in this Year. The only
> explanation. Hope they do a good job then.

IIRC, I got my hands on it in december; belonged to a friend, though.

> Although I realy do not understand why anyone with the heart to say "I
> am not a munchkin!" would ever consider using german gear. But than,
> Germany stands for Quality, right boys 'n girls?

Yep, the SMG with dual barrel for exampel. Not to mention the HK-MP7z...
Maybe FanPro caters more to the powergamer-community.

ArcLight
ICQ 14322211
NO ONE IS SAFE FROM A MICROWAVE
Message no. 12
From: Peter Mikulsky <petermikulsky@***.COM>
Subject: Re: vehicles missing
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:10:02 +0100
And so Steadfast spoke to us:

<sinp>
>
>And probably did good so, cause even after F&P got the stuff rewritten
>most of the Vehicles where a terror for many a GM (IMO). The Runners
>wanted them but moaned on the other Hand that the Corps got them too.
>Anyway.
>

That is my opinion too. But I have included the stuff from DidS. All my
player know, that they can have every piece of equipment that they want to
have.... but thy bad guys have also access to that stuff too. So I think my
campaign is balanced because the player dind't use much of it.
And don't forget there a many german player how like running the shadows
here in germany and not in the UCAS. Its more familiar to that "jobs" back
home.
But that is something I do not really understand
>
>Rejoice every Germany in the Shadows admirer! I've heard that the Rigger
>2 will be released in german Language sometimes this year. That is if
>FanPro will get it in time. Those Boys already got quite some things to
>get done so I doubt it. Anyway, IF they will do it in time, the Stats
>for the german vehicles will most likely be implemented. And for the
>rumour section, FanPro has declared that the Rigger Black Book is
>currently out of Print and will not be put back to print. That is why I
>figure those boys will do the R2 thingy in this Year. The only
>explanation. Hope they do a good job then.
>Although I realy do not understand why anyone with the heart to say "I
>am not a munchkin!" would ever consider using german gear. But than,
>Germany stands for Quality, right boys 'n girls?
>;o)


I hope that but looking at some other sourcebooks.... I will pray that they
know what they doing. :-)

-Archangel
Message no. 13
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: AW: vehicles missing
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 05:26:01 +0100
And so it came to happen that ArcLight wrote in reply to My humble self:

snip>
> > And probably did good so, cause even after F&P got the stuff rewritten
> > most of the Vehicles where a terror for many a GM (IMO). The Runners
> > wanted them but moaned on the other Hand that the Corps got them too.
> > Anyway.
>
> But you have to admit that their design is a lot better than those
> FASA-ones.
> Especially the Mercedes L800

Yea, one out of 10 is better. But than have a look at the rest of the
artwork, that maybe is not "Design" but in my eyes it is even more
important to bring that special feel for the World you play in. Just
take a quick skim on the german "Germany in the shadows" or the combined
Tir books recently released and tell me that the original Artwork is not
as good as the german Art. And to that, I personaly find that the
ilustrations of the different Supplements vary immensly in good and bad
Artwork for even FASA themselves. But, and that is the most important
thing, taste is free, everyone should be alowed to like what he/she/it
likes! And for that I stand.
Now, friend, burn every german product to show me some faith, right?
;o)

<snip>
> > Rejoice every Germany in the Shadows admirer! I've heard that the Rigger
> > 2 will be released in german Language sometimes this year. That is if
> > FanPro will get it in time. Those Boys already got quite some things to
> > get done so I doubt it. Anyway, IF they will do it in time, the Stats
> > for the german vehicles will most likely be implemented. And for the
> > rumour section, FanPro has declared that the Rigger Black Book is
> > currently out of Print and will not be put back to print. That is why I
> > figure those boys will do the R2 thingy in this Year. The only
> > explanation. Hope they do a good job then.
>
> IIRC, I got my hands on it in december; belonged to a friend, though.

Hm? you already got hold of a german edition Rigger 2??? Or did you mean
that the Rigger Black Book was the object that you had looked at? I
think the last, or my "ressources" will be quite shocked.
;o)

> > Although I realy do not understand why anyone with the heart to say "I
> > am not a munchkin!" would ever consider using german gear. But than,
> > Germany stands for Quality, right boys 'n girls?
>
> Yep, the SMG with dual barrel for exampel. Not to mention the HK-MP7z...
> Maybe FanPro caters more to the powergamer-community.

Amen to that.

--
Mwhaahaahaar!!!
"Grossen bum*" man,
real "GROSSEN BUMBUM**" I got dere in my pocket!

*German translation of Savalette Guardian.
**German translation for Savalette Guardian, shouted.
---> Steadfast
Selfproclaimed Protector of
German BABY's
Message no. 14
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: vehicles missing
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 05:25:53 +0100
And so it came to happen that Peter Mikulsky wrote in reply to To my
humble self:

> >And probably did good so, cause even after F&P got the stuff rewritten
> >most of the Vehicles where a terror for many a GM (IMO). The Runners
> >wanted them but moaned on the other Hand that the Corps got them too.
> >Anyway.
> >
> That is my opinion too. But I have included the stuff from DidS. All my
> player know, that they can have every piece of equipment that they want to
> have.... but thy bad guys have also access to that stuff too. So I think my
> campaign is balanced because the player dind't use much of it.
> And don't forget there a many german player how like running the shadows
> here in germany and not in the UCAS. Its more familiar to that "jobs" back
> home.
> But that is something I do not really understand

Well, I must admit that it would be nice to roam through "Kreuzberg" as
I live in Berlin, but I simply do not like the whole anarchycrap, the
Eurowars, the whole german thing. But that is my opinion. Of course I do
not like some of the proposals FASA has made too, but To there I've got
quite a distance and so I am not that inclined into the history of that
land. And it is far away from here (well, in a way ;o)), that makes it
easier for me to pretend, hm, better say, it was like that when I
started. And there was no germany in the shadows as I started. Maybe
that is a big point too. And I do understand that many german player
like to play in germany, and of course not every player who plays in
germany is a munchkin. Even if so, fine, they can be if they do not want
to play with me.
To that gear FanPro did made, I think it is simply cruel to give that
kind of equipement to runners. It is not only obvisiously Power Gaming
but also shortminded to make a powerfull Weapon like the Altmeyer
Shotgun AND give it an availability of 4. As I posted mucho earlier on
this list (and not only once, grin) expect every Berliner Ork Gang to
have two to three handy and shoot the hell out of your Sammy.

<snip>
> >Although I realy do not understand why anyone with the heart to say "I
> >am not a munchkin!" would ever consider using german gear. But than,
> >Germany stands for Quality, right boys 'n girls?
> >;o)
>
> I hope that but looking at some other sourcebooks.... I will pray that they
> know what they doing. :-)

I think they know. Or at least "think" that they know what they are
doing. But if they would only do it _IN TIME_ , then everything would be
fine. And not only for SR, if they could do a bit for all the Games they
have that would be nice for every german roleplayer I say. But do they
listen? Do they act? No! Hm, maybe I shopuld have send those e-mails
instead of deleting them?
;o)
--
Mwhaahaahaar!!!
"Grossen bum*" man,
real "GROSSEN BUMBUM**" I got dere in my pocket!

*German translation of Savalette Guardian.
**German translation for Savalette Guardian, shouted.
---> Steadfast
Selfproclaimed Protector of
German BABY's
Message no. 15
From: ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM>
Subject: AW: AW: vehicles missing
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:05:55 +0100
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]Im
> Auftrag von Steadfast
> Gesendet am: Donnerstag, 21. Januar 1999 0526
> An: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Betreff: Re: AW: vehicles missing

<snip>

> Yea, one out of 10 is better. But than have a look at the rest of the
> artwork, that maybe is not "Design" but in my eyes it is even more
> important to bring that special feel for the World you play in. Just
> take a quick skim on the german "Germany in the shadows" or the combined
> Tir books recently released and tell me that the original Artwork is not
> as good as the german Art. And to that, I personaly find that the
> ilustrations of the different Supplements vary immensly in good and bad
> Artwork for even FASA themselves. But, and that is the most important
> thing, taste is free, everyone should be alowed to like what he/she/it
> likes! And for that I stand.

The most disappointing thong was the cover of R2d: the cover from RBB with
an added "2"...

> Now, friend, burn every german product to show me some faith, right?
> ;o)

would be a reeeaaallllllyyyy small fire indeed...

<snip>

> Hm? you already got hold of a german edition Rigger 2??? Or did you mean
> that the Rigger Black Book was the object that you had looked at? I
> think the last, or my "ressources" will be quite shocked.
> ;o)

"Rigger Black Book 2"; it is basically the RBB, but with R2 stats and the
building rules.

> > > Although I realy do not understand why anyone with the heart to say "I
> > > am not a munchkin!" would ever consider using german gear. But than,
> > > Germany stands for Quality, right boys 'n girls?
> >
> > Yep, the SMG with dual barrel for exampel. Not to mention the HK-MP7z...
> > Maybe FanPro caters more to the powergamer-community.
>
> Amen to that.
>
> --
> Mwhaahaahaar!!!
> "Grossen bum*" man,
> real "GROSSEN BUMBUM**" I got dere in my pocket!

: /

ArcLight
ICQ 14322211
NO ONE IS SAFE FROM A MICROWAVE

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