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Message no. 1
From: Cole, Wade A. wcole@********.com
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:02:55 -0500
With all the discussion about battlefield and shoppe spirits I was wondering
if anyone ever considered vehicle spirits? I have a hard time believing
that a shop or parking lot might have a spirit and not a high end sports
car. If you just look at a Lamborghini (sp?) you can't tell me it doesn't
have a soul of some sort. The same for ancient artifacts, weapons, armor
(non-foci, I'm talking about.)

Draamal
"It _could_ get worse, and it usually does. If you think it can't you don't
have enough imagination."
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Message no. 2
From: Bira ra002585@**.unicamp.br
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:25:39 GMT
On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:02:55 -0500
"Cole, Wade A." <wcole@********.com> wrote:

> With all the discussion about battlefield and shoppe spirits I was wondering
> if anyone ever considered vehicle spirits? I have a hard time believing
> that a shop or parking lot might have a spirit and not a high end sports
> car. If you just look at a Lamborghini (sp?) you can't tell me it doesn't
> have a soul of some sort. The same for ancient artifacts, weapons, armor
> (non-foci, I'm talking about.)
>
> Draamal

According to most varieties of shamanism, everything has a
spirit. Of course, some spirits aren't as powerful or developed as
others. Just because your sports car of choice is extremely
well-designed, it doesn't mean it has a spirit powerful enough to be
summoned like normal nature spirits.

You can summon the spirit of a place to act in your behalf, but
I wouldn't allow a player to summon spirits of vehicles and weapons.

But for shamans, every type of magical activity can be explained
as interaction with spirits. So, when you create a magical item (that
is, a focus), you're awakening it's spirit and binding your essence to
it. When you cast a spell, you may be asking the spirits of the things
around you to do you a favor, and the results of the spell (effects and
Drain) tell you how much they cooperated and what they took from you as
payment.

This has no actual rules effect, but does much to enhance
roleplaying of your shaman :).



Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.cjb.net
ICQ#4055455
Message no. 3
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:57:14 GMT
>From: "Cole, Wade A." <wcole@********.com>
>With all the discussion about battlefield and shoppe spirits I was
>wondering
>if anyone ever considered vehicle spirits? I have a hard time believing
>that a shop or parking lot might have a spirit and not a high end sports
>car. If you just look at a Lamborghini (sp?) you can't tell me it doesn't
>have a soul of some sort. The same for ancient artifacts, weapons, armor
>(non-foci, I'm talking about.)

Reminds me of something I read on an SR site a while ago; the GM had posted
a run he was planning on sending the group on which would end with a pseudo
astral quest, during which the rigger would find himslef driving around
America during the 50's in a Cadalac. At the end the car asks him if he
wants to become a car shaman, following the totem of Cadalac, and that
struck me as such a cool idea.

There have been discussions on the list before about mechanic adepts. FASA
are quite big on the idea that magic and technology are two opposing forces,
but in the minds of some individuals, maybe Puma may take the form of a
really sleek sports car becuase the shaman has no idea what a Puma looks
like.

Phil

Dieing is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 4
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:57:35 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>

> There have been discussions on the list before about mechanic adepts.
FASA
> are quite big on the idea that magic and technology are two opposing
forces,
> but in the minds of some individuals, maybe Puma may take the form of a
> really sleek sports car becuase the shaman has no idea what a Puma looks
> like.

Actually, I've had something like this in mind for a while... to me, deckers
have always seemed somewhat like Astral Adepts... when they're on their
version of the Astral Plane, they are the equivalent of full magicians with
spells (programs) and even conjuring (Decker-in-a-box, the smart attack
frames that function like IC). Take them off that plane, however, and they
have a lot of theoretical knowledge of only limited use.

Thus, if I wind up playing again, I might decide to ignore the Matrix rules
and work up something more along the lines of Astral Space.
Message no. 5
From: Anissa Mathias anissamr@*****.com
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:32:43 -0700 (PDT)
Instead of a spirit in a machine, how about a spirit
that can turn into a machine. Like Talon's Familiar
in the book Ragnarock.

Possibility? I think so.


Anissa


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Message no. 6
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:31:14 -0700
From: Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>

>
> According to most varieties of shamanism, everything has a
> spirit. Of course, some spirits aren't as powerful or developed as
> others. Just because your sports car of choice is extremely
> well-designed, it doesn't mean it has a spirit powerful enough to be
> summoned like normal nature spirits.
>
> You can summon the spirit of a place to act in your behalf, but
> I wouldn't allow a player to summon spirits of vehicles and weapons.
>

For an interesting take on summoning spirits of technological
items, a good movie to watch is "The Manitou." The story centers
on a young woman who has been chosen to be the agent for the
rebirth of an ancient medicine man (his fetus starts growing
and developing on her neck). Two men, one a charlatan mystic
and the other a Native American shaman, try to help her, but
at the end the shaman discovers that the medicine man is too
powerful for his type of magic. The charlatan mystic ends up
summoning the manitous of technological items (a typewriter
first, then a mainframe computer) to do battle with the
medicine man, who, because his last incarnation was in the
1700s, has no experience with these new-type spirits.

It's kind of a cheesy movie, but it's pretty good for SR ideas.
I made a run out of it and it went great. :)

(It's also a novel by Graham Masterton which is less
cheesy but every bit as good.)

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
"If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that
thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats."
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Message no. 7
From: Cole, Wade A. wcole@********.com
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:47:22 -0500
[/quote]
Instead of a spirit in a machine, how about a spirit
that can turn into a machine. Like Talon's Familiar
in the book Ragnarock.

Possibility? I think so.


Anissa
[/end quote]
Actually I've been thinking about that one too. I can't decide if having an
ally manifest as a car is too much or not. A motorcycle is okay but not
very weather proof and at most is only a two seater. I was thinking of
making a home rule that a spirit can only manifest as a vehicle with 1/2
it's force in body. So a force 4 spirit could only manifest as vehicles
with a Body of 2 or less. You would have to have about a force 8 or so to
manifest as a van so this would eliminate people trying for limousines and
semi-trucks.
On a related note I've also been toying with the idea of an ally spirit that
can manifest as a melee weapon. My preference being a sword. What would
the wrinkles of this power be? The spirit adding it's strength or skill to
the wielder's like a weapon focus? A "dancing/singing sword" like in D&D?
'Stormbringer' anyone? Of course I'm just toying with the idea. I suspect
it may lead to abuse but it may be academic in my campaign with the karmic
cost of creating an ally since we don't get to play that often.

Draamal
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Message no. 8
From: Joel Agee jagee@******.com
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:04:25 -0700
> From: "Phil Smith" <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
>
> Reminds me of something I read on an SR site a while ago; the GM had posted
> a run he was planning on sending the group on which would end with a pseudo
> astral quest, during which the rigger would find himslef driving around
> America during the 50's in a Cadalac. At the end the car asks him if he
> wants to become a car shaman, following the totem of Cadalac, and that
> struck me as such a cool idea.

Sudden flashback to a Garfield TV special, "Garfield in Paradise" -- a bunch of
Pacific Islanders on their knees surrounding a '57 Chevy on a pedestal,
chanting, "Chrooooome.... Chrooooome.... Chrooooome...."
--
Joel Agee
Software Engineer
OptiSense Corp.
Tempe, AZ
Message no. 9
From: Bira ra002585@**.unicamp.br
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:55:58 GMT
On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:57:14 GMT
"Phil Smith" <phil_urbanhell@*******.com> wrote:

>
> There have been discussions on the list before about mechanic adepts. FASA
> are quite big on the idea that magic and technology are two opposing forces,
> but in the minds of some individuals, maybe Puma may take the form of a
> really sleek sports car becuase the shaman has no idea what a Puma looks
> like.

It's not that they're opposing forces... They just don't mix
that well :) . I thought this was a good idea, since it prevents
"Eternal Magic Batteries", mass-produced artifacts and tanks equipped
with Wands of Disintegration instead of cannons from poping up (GURPS
Technomancer has that kind of stuff, if you're interested).

That doesn't mean you can't mix both flavors, just that it's a
lot harder to do it, and you end up treasuring the end result more. You
can call an ally spirit to inhabit a gun, or your car, or even a
cyberdeck. A mage calls an entity from the outer planes, a shaman
awakens the object's soul, and so on. It's damn hard to do (summoning an
ally usually is :) ), but possible.

You can also enchant a high tech object to work as a focus.


> Phil
>

Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.cjb.net
ICQ#4055455
Message no. 10
From: Jeff Long jalong8@****.com
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:56:01 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cole, Wade A." <wcole@********.com>
<snip>
> On a related note I've also been toying with the idea of an ally spirit
that
> can manifest as a melee weapon. My preference being a sword. What would
> the wrinkles of this power be? The spirit adding it's strength or skill
to
> the wielder's like a weapon focus? A "dancing/singing sword" like in
D&D?
> 'Stormbringer' anyone? Of course I'm just toying with the idea. I
suspect
> it may lead to abuse but it may be academic in my campaign with the karmic
> cost of creating an ally since we don't get to play that often.

I've seen ally Spirits used as swords before. We ruled that as long as it
was manifested as a sword it would do normal sword damage. Though it was
able to do this damage on the astral as well due to it being a spirit. The
thing probibly would have turned into Highlander Sword (reach behind the
back and pull out a sword where you KNEW there wasn't one before.) if the
campaign hadn't ended soon after. My, was that a long time ago..

Jalong1
Message no. 11
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 17:19:01 GMT
>From: Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
> It's not that they're opposing forces... They just don't mix
>that well :) . I thought this was a good idea, since it prevents
>"Eternal Magic Batteries", mass-produced artifacts and tanks equipped
>with Wands of Disintegration instead of cannons from poping up (GURPS
>Technomancer has that kind of stuff, if you're interested).
>
> That doesn't mean you can't mix both flavors, just that it's a
>lot harder to do it, and you end up treasuring the end result more. You
>can call an ally spirit to inhabit a gun, or your car, or even a
>cyberdeck. A mage calls an entity from the outer planes, a shaman
>awakens the object's soul, and so on. It's damn hard to do (summoning an
>ally usually is :) ), but possible.
>
> You can also enchant a high tech object to work as a focus.

Okay; they're not opposing forces, but it is easier to cast spells on
objects with a lower object resistance, cyberware makes it harder to cast
health spells on people. That and the fact that you can get the same effect
from certain cyberware as you can spells, but never both at once. So I
guess, yeah; they don't mix too good.

Phil

Dieing is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 12
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:18:09 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>

> Okay; they're not opposing forces, but it is easier to cast spells on
> objects with a lower object resistance, cyberware makes it harder to cast
> health spells on people. That and the fact that you can get the same
effect
> from certain cyberware as you can spells, but never both at once. So I
> guess, yeah; they don't mix too good.

Yeah, but why is there a higher object resistance for high-tech things?
"Because there is less spiritually invested in the computer than in, saw, a
sword." Would my computer, which I built myself from (mostly) OEM parts
have a lower object resistance than my old, pre-manufactured computer, which
was likely sent down an assembly line and had parts slapped into it?
Message no. 13
From: Darryl Baker dpb@**.com
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:48:23 -0500
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Message no. 14
From: Cole, Wade A. wcole@********.com
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 13:21:41 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Nexx [mailto:nexx@********.net]
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 12:18 PM
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Subject: Re: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)

Would my computer, which I built myself from (mostly) OEM parts
have a lower object resistance than my old, pre-manufactured computer, which
was likely sent down an assembly line and had parts slapped into it?
[/end quote]

I would say yes, but very minimally. If you hand soldered the microchips
and designed all the schematics then I think you might make a case for
changing the object resistance. But since this is almost impossible the
point is academic.

------------------------------------------
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Message no. 15
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 13:54:36 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darryl Baker" <dpb@**.com>

> If I was to allow vehicle spirits I would limit the force to a calculation
based on the level of hand crafting, the age, the quality of upkeep, and of
course the emotions evoked by the driver. A late model, mass produced,
heavily automated (rigged), machine would have no spirit. While a museum
quality 95 year old Pantera DeTomaso would have a powerful quick to react
difficult to control spirit. On the other side would be the 40 year old one
owner car owned by a little old lady. A calm easily controlled, but easily
confused and not very worldly wise spirit.
>

I disagree. I think rigging a vehicle makes it more likely to develop its
own spirit, as the pilot is likely to have much more invested, emotionally,
in the vehicle than someone who just drives a truck. This, in turn, would
increase the likelihood and power of any spirit attached to the object.

For example, we can take the Behemoth (my truck). Now, I don't personally
do the work on him, but the Behemoth is kept well-maintained and I've bonded
heavily with him (trips that have you talking to no one but your vehicle and
the people behind the counter for 3-6 days will do that). If he and I were
to suddenly be in the world of Shadowrun, I think that a magician could see
the connection between the Behemoth and I. Now think about a rigger, who
likely does all his own repair work and even goes so far as to link his mind
to the vehicle. That vehicle, even if it was a late-model mass produced
vehicle, is going to be so closely linked to him that it would be more
likely to develop its own pattern, based on what he sees in it.

***
Nexx
a.k.a. Mark Hall
***
"If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight, moonlight, no
light. If I lose paper and ink I will write in blood on forgotten walls. I
will write always. I will capture nights all over the world and bring them
to you."
-Henry Rollins
***
http://www-personal.interkan.net/~nexx/index.html
Updated October 5th, 2000
Message no. 16
From: Anissa Mathias anissamr@*****.com
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:41:24 -0700 (PDT)
<snip>
I was thinking of making a home rule that a spirit can
only manifest as a vehicle with 1/2 it's force in
body. So a force 4 spirit could only manifest as
vehicles
with a Body of 2 or less. You would have to have
about a force 8 or so to manifest as a van so this
would eliminate people trying for limousines and
semi-trucks.
<snip>

I could see that as a good house rule, but how would
you entertain someone who was having a "Wolf and
Raven" flashback and decided that a yacht was his
familiar and that it boosted his spells. I know, that
to you and me, it would probably too much, but there
are power gamers out there. :-)

Anissa

The life of a GM is a taxing one.

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Message no. 17
From: Bira ra002585@**.unicamp.br
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 01:31:57 GMT
On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:18:09 -0500
"Nexx" <nexx@********.net> wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Smith" <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
>
> > Okay; they're not opposing forces, but it is easier to cast spells on
> > objects with a lower object resistance, cyberware makes it harder to cast
> > health spells on people. That and the fact that you can get the same
> effect
> > from certain cyberware as you can spells, but never both at once. So I
> > guess, yeah; they don't mix too good.
>
> Yeah, but why is there a higher object resistance for high-tech things?
> "Because there is less spiritually invested in the computer than in, saw, a
> sword." Would my computer, which I built myself from (mostly) OEM parts
> have a lower object resistance than my old, pre-manufactured computer, which
> was likely sent down an assembly line and had parts slapped into it?

No... It would still be the same. Perhaps you could get a small
Karma discount if you enchant it as a focus :) .

You could also have a "Sandbenders" (from Idoru) machine. A
beautiful, hand-made casing built from mostly natural materials,
containing your usual off-the-shelf computer parts. The casing is much
easier to deal with, magically speaking, than a normal one, especially
if you dot it before installing the computer parts in it.

The casing can even be considered a "virgin telesma" if you
build it yourself...




Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.cjb.net
ICQ#4055455
Message no. 18
From: Darryl Baker dpb@**.com
Subject: Vehicle Spirits? (was Nature Spirits)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 08:42:29 -0500
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Further Reading

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Thwap!