Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Rob Harris <roberth@*******.COM>
Subject:	Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 30 May 1997 09:27:37 -0400

Message no. 1 Alright, how do you hit with this darn thing! Fixed Rate of fire at 15, means
+15 recoil modifier correct? Now I know you take it person by person, but
it appears to mean that you can hit the first guy, struggle with the second and
third, and then NEVER HIT ANYONE AGAIN for the rest of the round!
Whats up with that? Well, just thought I would pose the question....

Rob 'The Hat' Harris
(roberth@*******.com)

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 30 May 1997 15:52:50 -0400

Message no. 2 At 09:27 AM 5/30/97 -0400, Rob Harris wrote these timeless words:
>Alright, how do you hit with this darn thing! Fixed Rate of fire at 15, means
>+15 recoil modifier correct? Now I know you take it person by person, but
>it appears to mean that you can hit the first guy, struggle with the
second and
>third, and then NEVER HIT ANYONE AGAIN for the rest of the round!
>Whats up with that? Well, just thought I would pose the question....
>
This is where things like gas vents and gyro mounts come in REALLY handy...

Besides, the Vindicator isn't really for shoting lots of specific
targets... It's for spraying crowds, keeping large groups behind cover, or
toating large critters like dragons...:]

Bull
--
Now the Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
NEW HOME PAGE!: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

"The best Ork Decker you never met"
-Me, in the upcoming "Target: UCAS" Shadowrun Sourcebook!

From:	Duncan McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 30 May 1997 15:59:41 -0400

Message no. 3 In a message dated 97-05-30 15:35:59 EDT, you write:

> Alright, how do you hit with this darn thing! Fixed Rate of fire at 15,
means
> +15 recoil modifier correct? Now I know you take it person by person, but
> it appears to mean that you can hit the first guy, struggle with the
second
> and
> third, and then NEVER HIT ANYONE AGAIN for the rest of the round!
> Whats up with that? Well, just thought I would pose the question....
>
> Rob 'The Hat' Harris
> (roberth@*******.com)
>

Suppressive fire bro. That or get a improved deluxe gyro-mount harness and a
few levels of muscle aug.

BTW, with a Vindicator, any uncomped recoil is doubled before addingto your
TN, so it is +30 with no recoil comp for the last burst.

Later-

Duncan

From:	Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 30 May 1997 01:29:18 -0700

Message no. 4 Rob Harris wrote:
<<Alright, how do you hit with this darn thing! Fixed Rate of fire at
15, means +15 recoil modifier correct? Now I know you take it person by
person, but it appears to mean that you can hit the first guy, struggle
with the second and third, and then NEVER HIT ANYONE AGAIN for the rest
of the round! Whats up with that? Well, just thought I would pose the
question....>>

One word: Hardpoint.

Some things are not meant to be used by Man. Tanks, though....

> Rob 'The Hat' Harris
> (roberth@*******.com)

From:	Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 30 May 1997 16:15:30 -0400

Message no. 5 On Fri, 30 May 1997, Duncan McNeill-Burton wrote:

> In a message dated 97-05-30 15:35:59 EDT, you write:
>
> > Alright, how do you hit with this darn thing! Fixed Rate of fire at 15,
> means
> > +15 recoil modifier correct? Now I know you take it person by person, but
> > it appears to mean that you can hit the first guy, struggle with the
> second
> > and
> > third, and then NEVER HIT ANYONE AGAIN for the rest of the round!
> > Whats up with that? Well, just thought I would pose the question....
> >
> > Rob 'The Hat' Harris
> > (roberth@*******.com)
> >
>
> Suppressive fire bro. That or get a improved deluxe gyro-mount harness and a
> few levels of muscle aug.
>
> BTW, with a Vindicator, any uncomped recoil is doubled before addingto your
> TN, so it is +30 with no recoil comp for the last burst.
>
> Later-
>
> Duncan
>
Only medium machine guns, heavy machine guns, and shotguns get
double the recoil. Light machine guns don't. Strangely the Vindicator is
a light machine gun so you don't get double the recoil. At least that's
how it works in my game.

Dust

P.S. If you're going to use the Vindicator get a tripod, deluxe gyro,
imp gas vent IV, and a good lawyer.

P.P.S. Please correct me if I'm wrong about the double the recoil not
applying to miniguns.

From:	"M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 30 May 1997 16:38:07 -0400

Message no. 6 Greetings!!!

Typically we mount it on a gyromount and get ready to rock n' roll. Since the
first 7 rounds will not have a recoil modifier (recoil is only added after
the first round so its +14, not 15), generally we split up the fire into
multiple targets. Usually only the last eight miss.

Also we tend to use the Vindicator for laying down supression fire (see
fields of fire) and that seems to work real well.

There are also numberous "Hit and Miss" SR2 ranged combat systems on the web
that address improvements to the rules to allivate just this problem. FASA's
system is best described as a "Hit or Miss".

-Bandit

"At my lemonade stand I used to give the first glass away free and charge
five dollars for the second glass. The refill contained the antidote."

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 30 May 1997 17:10:33 EDT

Message no. 7 On Fri, 30 May 1997 15:59:41 -0400 Duncan McNeill-Burton
<Dreadnaut1@***.COM> writes:
<snippy>
>Suppressive fire bro. That or get a improved deluxe gyro-mount
>harness and a
>few levels of muscle aug.
>
>BTW, with a Vindicator, any uncomped recoil is doubled before addingto
>your
>TN, so it is +30 with no recoil comp for the last burst.

You sure about that? The Vindicator's not a heavy weapon (close, but not
quite-it's an LMG), and it's not a shotgun, so it should just use base
recoil. A few points from Strength will certainly help the recoil,
though.

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 30 May 1997 14:35:05 -0600

Message no. 8 Rob Harris wrote:
|
| Alright, how do you hit with this darn thing! Fixed Rate of fire at 15, means
| +15 recoil modifier correct? Now I know you take it person by person, but
| it appears to mean that you can hit the first guy, struggle with the second and
| third, and then NEVER HIT ANYONE AGAIN for the rest of the round!
| Whats up with that? Well, just thought I would pose the question....

Troll + muscle augmentation + gas vents + gyromount <EGMLOL>

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 30 May 1997 16:54:11 EDT

Message no. 9 On Fri, 30 May 1997 09:27:37 -0400 Rob Harris <roberth@*******.COM>
writes:
>Alright, how do you hit with this darn thing! Fixed Rate of fire at
>15, means
>+15 recoil modifier correct? Now I know you take it person by person,
>but
>it appears to mean that you can hit the first guy, struggle with the
>second and
>third, and then NEVER HIT ANYONE AGAIN for the rest of the round!
>Whats up with that? Well, just thought I would pose the question....

Well, you could mount it on a gyromount, or a tripod and get 6 pts of
recoil, and halve the remaining 11 points, and/or you could put on Gas
Vents, which work differently for each GM, it seems, but you'd have to
have at least of the same rating.

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	Craig J Wilhelm <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 30 May 1997 16:33:58 -0400

Message no. 10 Rob Harris wrote:

> Alright, how do you hit with this darn thing! Fixed Rate of fire at
> 15, means
> +15 recoil modifier correct? Now I know you take it person by person,
> but
> it appears to mean that you can hit the first guy, struggle with the
> second and
> third, and then NEVER HIT ANYONE AGAIN for the rest of the round!
> Whats up with that? Well, just thought I would pose the question....
>
Yeah, I've always had a bit of a problem with this. Even with a smart link, and
a Deluxe Improved gyro mount, that still leaves you with a T# modifier of +6...
Not fun. However, one thing mini-guns and their high rate of fire are great for
is suppression fire/room/hallway/alley cleaning. You get the idea. One tactic is
for the Big Strong Guy(tm) in the group sling one of these and a 1,000 round
belt of ammo as well as whatever smaller ordinance he desires. Whenever you need
to keep the bad guys out of a small area, you throw 15 rounds into a 1 meter
square. For the next ten phases that spot is the wrong place to be. Any one who
enters it during that time is subject to a 13-14D attack on average... Ouch...
Keep in mind you can do the same thing with any of the HV class weapons in
a smaller, cheaper package that you can still fire in SA and 6 shot burst modes,
which are quite manageable since they all come with atleast 3 points of recoil
compensation.

Enjoy.
--
Craig

Reality is nothing but a refuge for those who can't handle role-playing.

http://home.earthlink.net/~craigjwjr/index.html

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From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 30 May 1997 16:37:28 -0700

Message no. 11 | Typically we mount it on a gyromount and get ready to rock n' roll. Since
the
| first 7 rounds will not have a recoil modifier (recoil is only added
after
| the first round so its +14, not 15), generally we split up the fire into
| multiple targets. Usually only the last eight miss.

Definately got to get a gyromount, but I have some bad news Sean.
According to the SRII errata the first round counts for autofire also. I
know, I know it's sad but true.

| Also we tend to use the Vindicator for laying down supression fire (see
| fields of fire) and that seems to work real well.

Yup yup yup.

-Caric

"I was NAKED!!!!!!!!!!!"
-Blackjack our Racoon Shaman when asked why he ran away from one
particular fight."

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sat, 31 May 1997 11:33:26 +0100

Message no. 12 Rob Harris said on 9:27/30 May 97...

> Alright, how do you hit with this darn thing! Fixed Rate of fire at 15, means
> +15 recoil modifier correct? Now I know you take it person by person, but
> it appears to mean that you can hit the first guy, struggle with the second and
> third, and then NEVER HIT ANYONE AGAIN for the rest of the round!
> Whats up with that? Well, just thought I would pose the question....

RL Miniguns (or automatic weapons in general, for that matter) aren't
really intended to hit with all rounds they fire. The theory behind an
electrically-driven multi-barrel weapon (i.e. a minigun) is that you fire
a shitload of rounds in the target's direction, and some of them will end
up somewhere they can do damage.

In SR this is hard to simulate because of its all-or-nothing approach to
full-auto bursts. This makes a minigun useful only in two situations: 1)
for supression fire (from FoF), since you can roll 15 dice to see if you
hit; and 2) if there is little ammo in the weapon -- load 6 rounds into
the clip and fire them all, then load a new clip with 6 rounds, etc.
Obviously, the second method has the distinct disadvantages in that you
have to load a lot, and you're not doing anything with the minigun that a
normal LMG can't do.

There are several sets of autofire house rules, but one I plan on using in
the near future follows below (with thanks to whoever thought them up a
few years ago and Damion Milliken).
Basically, you calculate the TN for firing a single round at the target,
and the TN for the full burst, then roll your skill dice. Now three things
can happen:
1) if the roll is less than the single shot TN, all rounds miss
2) if the roll beats the burst TN, all shots hit
3) if the roll beats the single shot TN but not the burst TN, subtact the
highest-rolling die from the burst TN to find the number of rounds that
_miss_

The number of successes for the burst equals the number of successes
rolled against the single shot TN. If the weapon has a higher recoil
modifier that +1 per round (for example +2 per round for heavy weapons),
divide the number of rounds that hit by this modifier. At least 1 round
will hit if the single shot TN was exceeded.

For example, you fire 15 rounds from a Vindicator minigun against a target
at Short range -- TN 4 for a single shot, and 34 for the whole burst.
Rolling your 10 dice (skill + Combat Pool) you get 1,1,1,1,2,3,4,4,5,9.
Four dice beat the single shot TN, so the burst has four successes. No
dice exceed the burst TN, but the highest roll is 9 -- the burst TN was
34, so 25 rounds would miss the target (34 - 9 = 25), leaving none to hit.
However, the single shot TN was exceeded, so at least one round hits
(the Vindicator uses heavy weapon recoil rules, so technically even that
would be halved to .5 rounds). Anyway, the attack causes 7S damage and
makes 14 out of 15 rounds fired miss the target.

Now throw in a rating 7 gyromount and a Strength of 10 and we're talking
business. The single shot TN wouldn't change from the 4, but the burst TN
drops to 14 (base recoil of +15, 10 points compensation, leaves +5, which
is doubled because of the heavy weapon recoil). With the same rolls as
above, the base number of rounds that miss is 5: 14 (burst tN) - 9
(highest roll) = 5. That leaves 10 rounds to hit, but this is halved
because of the +2 recoil modifier, leaving 5 rounds to hit: 12D damage.

One other solution is to put a gas vent on each barrel, which work
together according to Tom Dowd -- 6 rating 2 gas vents give 12 points
recoil compensation. Or you can put the weapon on a gyro mount or tripod,
which also reduces recoil.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wat u bent, dat is niets anders dan de herinnering aan uzelf.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sat, 31 May 1997 11:33:26 +0100

Message no. 13 M. Sean Martinez said on 16:38/30 May 97...

> Typically we mount it on a gyromount and get ready to rock n' roll. Since the
> first 7 rounds will not have a recoil modifier (recoil is only added after
> the first round so its +14, not 15)

Nope, that was corrected in the errata -- _all_ rounds in a burst are
subject to recoil, including the first one. You'd double the +8 left, to
+16, and most likely miss tremendously.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wat u bent, dat is niets anders dan de herinnering aan uzelf.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sat, 31 May 1997 11:33:26 +0100

Message no. 14 Dust said on 16:15/30 May 97...

> Only medium machine guns, heavy machine guns, and shotguns get
> double the recoil. Light machine guns don't. Strangely the Vindicator is
> a light machine gun so you don't get double the recoil. At least that's
> how it works in my game.

Check the Sourcebook Updates section of SRII (or perhaps the 2nd edition
Street Samurai Catalog, but I don't own that one), it says Vindicators use
heavy weapon recoil rules, so any uncompensated recoil is doubled.

> P.S. If you're going to use the Vindicator get a tripod, deluxe gyro,
> imp gas vent IV, and a good lawyer.

More than one gas vent 4 would be even better, as it allows you to shoot
the lawyer more accurately :)

> P.P.S. Please correct me if I'm wrong about the double the recoil not
> applying to miniguns.

Consider it done :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wat u bent, dat is niets anders dan de herinnering aan uzelf.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 30 May 1997 23:47:31 +0100

Message no. 15 In message <SIMEON.9705300937.B@******.pubserv.com.pubserv.com>, Rob
Harris <roberth@*******.COM> writes
>Alright, how do you hit with this darn thing! Fixed Rate of fire at 15, means
>+15 recoil modifier correct? Now I know you take it person by person, but
>it appears to mean that you can hit the first guy, struggle with the second and
>third, and then NEVER HIT ANYONE AGAIN for the rest of the round!
>Whats up with that? Well, just thought I would pose the question....

Put it on a vehicle.

Miniguns are not man-portable weapons. The Vindicator equates to the
General Electric XM-214 (a 5.56mm Gatling), whose firepower can be
compared to _ten_ assault rifles or LMGs firing at once: I'd say +15 was
a generously low modifier in the circumstances.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sat, 31 May 1997 12:23:39 EDT

Message no. 16 On Fri, 30 May 1997 14:35:05 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:
>Rob Harris wrote:
>|
>| Alright, how do you hit with this darn thing! Fixed Rate of fire at
15, means
>| +15 recoil modifier correct? Now I know you take it person by person,
but
>| it appears to mean that you can hit the first guy, struggle with the
second and
>| third, and then NEVER HIT ANYONE AGAIN for the rest of the round!
>| Whats up with that? Well, just thought I would pose the question....
>
>Troll + muscle augmentation + gas vents + gyromount <EGMLOL>

...you forgot the Shock-Pads... or is he just using it one handed?

:)
~Tim

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:49:06 +1000

Message no. 17 >
> Miniguns are not man-portable weapons. The Vindicator equates to the
> General Electric XM-214 (a 5.56mm Gatling), whose firepower can be
> compared to _ten_ assault rifles or LMGs firing at once: I'd say +15 was
> a generously low modifier in the circumstances.
>

Can I ask a small quastion.

I know movies are not true to life by any stretch, but there are two
examples I can immediately think of where miniguns are toted by people.

Terminator 2 and Predator.

I also seem to recall that the US army used to issue them to some
support/heavy weapons infantry squads.

From:	Duncan McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sat, 31 May 1997 23:19:21 -0400

Message no. 18 In a message dated 97-05-31 22:53:04 EDT, you write:

> Can I ask a small quastion.
>
> I know movies are not true to life by any stretch, but there are two
> examples I can immediately think of where miniguns are toted by people.
>
> Terminator 2 and Predator.
>
> I also seem to recall that the US army used to issue them to some
> support/heavy weapons infantry squads.
>

Well, in Terminator 2, the minigun was used for suppressive fire by a
Terminator, which I would conservatively give a strength of 15 to 20. In
Predator, well, look at the movie in general. The minigun is used for
suppressive fire and to gun people down stationary target inside of 10 meters
by a guy with the build of a professional bodybuilder who rates at least a
strength 7, which keeps the gun on target for the first burst or two.

In addition, what you didn't see in the movie was the power cord for the
mingun motor that ran down Ventura's leg and out over his boot top.

Later-

Duncan

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:54:22 -0400

Message no. 19 In a message dated 97-05-31 22:53:04 EDT, s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU (MARTIN
E. GOTTHARD and others) writes:

<< > Miniguns are not man-portable weapons. The Vindicator equates to the
> General Electric XM-214 (a 5.56mm Gatling), whose firepower can be
> compared to _ten_ assault rifles or LMGs firing at once: I'd say +15 was
> a generously low modifier in the circumstances.
>
Can I ask a small quastion.
I know movies are not true to life by any stretch, but there are two
examples I can immediately think of where miniguns are toted by people.
Terminator 2 and Predator.
I also seem to recall that the US army used to issue them to some
support/heavy weapons infantry squads.
>>

There is something else to plug in here. The rules for Strength also give
hints at carrying really big guns. Sure the Vindicator is a monster, but it
is also existing in a fictional world with cybermodded samurai who have
nothing to do with Japanese dynasties. I don't know if the US would issure
them as personal weapons, but I know of a LOT of samurai and mercenary types
who think they are the hottest shit in town if they have hold of one with a
-BIG- box of ammo to play with.
-Keith

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:50:34 +0100

Message no. 20 MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 12:49/ 1 Jun 97...

[+15 is a low recoil mod for a minigun]
> Can I ask a small quastion.
>
> I know movies are not true to life by any stretch, but there are two
> examples I can immediately think of where miniguns are toted by people.
>
> Terminator 2 and Predator.

They were firing blanks, like movie guns usually do, and blank = no
recoil (since there's no projectile going out of the barrel). AFAIK
General Electric's own data for the XM214 shows a recoil force in the
order of 500 N at 4000 rpm firing rate.

> I also seem to recall that the US army used to issue them to some
> support/heavy weapons infantry squads.

I've never heard of that, though naturally that doesn't mean it can't have
happened :) Still, if you look at the limitations of a minigun, it's
unlikely to be used a lot, especially in infantry units who have to carry
the thing themselves: you need a power supply, and an XM214's battery
lasts about 3000 rounds, which is 45 seconds on maximum firing rate;
also huge amounts of ammo are needed to keep the weapon operational for
any period of time (sure, there's a 400 rpm mode too, but I have this
feeling many soldiers simply won't use it).
These guns make more sense as vehicle-mounted weapons, where weight of
the gun and its ammo aren't a problem, and power can be drawn from the
engine.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
People always talk about long-distance phonecalls as if they had to walk
all the way.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Mon, 2 Jun 1997 20:44:56 +1000

Message no. 21 > > Can I ask a small question.
> >
> > I know movies are not true to life by any stretch, but there are two
> > examples I can immediately think of where miniguns are toted by people.
> >
> > Terminator 2 and Predator.
>
> They were firing blanks, like movie guns usually do, and blank = no
> recoil (since there's no projectile going out of the barrel). AFAIK
> General Electric's own data for the XM214 shows a recoil force in the
> order of 500 N at 4000 rpm firing rate.
>
The recoil isn't actually zero, because you're propelling gas.... It's
just a shit-load lighter.

Also, even if the recoil on the minigun is the (apparently) huge figure
of 500 Newtons, it's merely equivalent to holding 50 kg in a bench-press.
Sure, you'd want to be damn-well braced (Preferrably against a wall) and of
big build, but it's possible..... just not horribly practical *grin*

Marty

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:09:33 +0100

Message no. 22 MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 20:44/ 2 Jun 97...

> The recoil isn't actually zero, because you're propelling gas.... It's
> just a shit-load lighter.

I know, but decided not to point it out (poor excuse? But it's the truth!!
:)

> Also, even if the recoil on the minigun is the (apparently) huge figure
> of 500 Newtons, it's merely equivalent to holding 50 kg in a bench-press.

In that case, I'm not even going to try firing one of these things ;)

> Sure, you'd want to be damn-well braced (Preferrably against a wall) and of
> big build, but it's possible..... just not horribly practical *grin*

That's exactly the point. 500 N may not be all that much (many 30 mm
cannons reach 8000 N or so IIRC, and I don't even want to think about the
force with which an artillery gun recoils), but the point is that it's a
lot more than that of your average pistol, SMG, or rifle, about which many
people already complain.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
People always talk about long-distance phonecalls as if they had to walk
all the way.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:24:33 -0500

Message no. 23 > > Also, even if the recoil on the minigun is the (apparently)
> > huge figure of 500 Newtons, it's merely equivalent to holding
> > 50 kg in a bench-press.

Whoahhhh! Impact loading is a lot different that Force applied.
Check it out. Impact is Force/time, and with the small amount
of time during which your 500N is applied... It'd crush you like a
bug.

If anyone's interested I could run through the math... It gets
pretty unfriendly after a while.

Gossamer

From:	Smedley <smedley@***.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 6 Jun 1997 16:06:24 +1000

Message no. 24 Rob Harris wrote:
>
> Alright, how do you hit with this darn thing! Fixed Rate of fire at 15, means
> +15 recoil modifier correct? Now I know you take it person by person, but
> it appears to mean that you can hit the first guy, struggle with the second and
> third, and then NEVER HIT ANYONE AGAIN for the rest of the round!

easy: deluxe gyro-mount.

From:	Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:54:15 +0200

Message no. 25 At 04:06 PM 06-06-97 +1000, you wrote:
>Rob Harris wrote:
>>
>> Alright, how do you hit with this darn thing! Fixed Rate of fire at 15, means
>> +15 recoil modifier correct? Now I know you take it person by person, but
>> it appears to mean that you can hit the first guy, struggle with the
second and
>> third, and then NEVER HIT ANYONE AGAIN for the rest of the round!
>
>
>easy: deluxe gyro-mount.

>>>>>>>>That's only a what? -7 mod. who wants to tell me you can
gas vent a
minigun , please noone do that.

Gyr0
>
>

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:48:12 +0100

Message no. 26 Bruce said on 9:54/ 6 Jun 97...

> >easy: deluxe gyro-mount.
>
> >>>>>>>>That's only a what? -7 mod. who wants to tell me you
can gas vent a
> minigun , please noone do that.

The deluxe gyromount gives a -7 modifier, Then chuck on four rating 2 gas
vents and you have a total of -15, totally negating all recoil. (Yes, you
can put more than one gas vent on a minigun... However I'm not going to
mention this to any player of mine unless they bring it up themselves.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well that's allright now, you don't listen to me anyway.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	andre eibel <eibel.andre@**.COMCITY.DE>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:58:36 -0500

Message no. 27 At 06-Jun-97 wrote Gurth:

>The deluxe gyromount gives a -7 modifier, Then chuck on four rating 2 gas
>vents and you have a total of -15, totally negating all recoil. (Yes, you
>can put more than one gas vent on a minigun... However I'm not going to
>mention this to any player of mine unless they bring it up themselves.)

Why four gas vents?
The Vindicator has six barrels you would ruin the accuracy with venting only
four of them.
So take six of them and a gyromount voila no recoil and virtually no
movement penalties.
I would not allowed this idea in my game not even for NPC`s because
my players the will reversenginer the damned thing.
I rule that all kinds of rotating barrel guns can`t take gas vents just like
the
HV`s. yes I know it`s not stated in the description of the vindicator that
you can`t.
Maybe the player who wants some thing like that can have it by been
a truly inventive guy?

--
Barbie

==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 6 Jun 1997 07:12:45 -0600

Message no. 28 Gurth wrote:
|
| Bruce said on 9:54/ 6 Jun 97...
|
| > >easy: deluxe gyro-mount.
| >
| > >>>>>>>>That's only a what? -7 mod. who wants to tell me
you can gas vent a
| > minigun , please noone do that.
|
| The deluxe gyromount gives a -7 modifier, Then chuck on four rating 2 gas
| vents and you have a total of -15, totally negating all recoil. (Yes, you
| can put more than one gas vent on a minigun... However I'm not going to
| mention this to any player of mine unless they bring it up themselves.)

And then give it to a troll with a strength of 11+ (-4 recoil) and a
smartlink.

I accidently did this with an NPC in the current adventur I'm
running. I was using suppressive fire because I thought the recoil
would be to high (the gyromount was there for style :). On the
second round I added up the recoil modifiers for fun and suddenly
realized I was in a position to kill all the PCs. I decided that the
NPC was slightly sadistic and prefered to terrorize his victims with
a hail of lead rather than kill them outright. Fun was had by all
<EGMG>.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 6 Jun 1997 07:26:21 -0600

Message no. 29 Bruce wrote:
|
| >Rob Harris wrote:
| >>
| >> [snip: How do you hit with a Vindicator?]
| >
| >easy: deluxe gyro-mount.
|
| >>>>>>>>That's only a what? -7 mod. who wants to tell me you can
gas vent a
| minigun , please noone do that.

It doesn't expressly forbid it in the rules. The discussion has come
up from time to time with the outcome being that it's basically up to
each GM. And if you (or your GM) does allow gas vents on miniguns,
you can mount one gas vent per barrel (and in my game each barrel
must have the same type of gas vent). It all depends on your point of
view.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 6 Jun 1997 15:01:32 +0200

Message no. 30 At 07:26 AM 06-06-97 -0600, you wrote:
>B
>
>It doesn't expressly forbid it in the rules. The discussion has come
>up from time to time with the outcome being that it's basically up to
>each GM. And if you (or your GM) does allow gas vents on miniguns,
>you can mount one gas vent per barrel (and in my game each barrel
>must have the same type of gas vent). It all depends on your point of
>view.
>
>-David
>--
>It seems to be a little illogical (never mind expensive) to GV a minigun
You see , by the time the necessary gas have gone through all the working
parts and been expelled the barrel will be facing in another direction.
Given even small variations in each GV this could cause wild fluctuations in
the aim of the minigun and possibly (in my game definitly) giving positive
(thats bad) modifiers to the target number. I geuss we must just accept the
facts that miniguns are difficult and unwieldy and not intended for much
more than mass firefight/supressing fire/lead hose kind of work.

Still nothing that sounds like the muthaf@#%^ though!!!!Rock n Roll!!!

Hosin'

Gyr0

From:	Jason Forbes <jayfor@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:21:19 -0400

Message no. 31 Bruce wrote:

> At 04:06 PM 06-06-97 +1000, Bruce wrote:
>
> >easy: deluxe gyro-mount.
>
> >>>>>>>>That's only a what? -7 mod. who wants to tell me you
can gas
> vent a
> minigun , please noone do that.
>
> Gyr0
> >
> >

Even not using gas-vent a strong character using the rules in FoF can
get another 4 points of recoil comp. Thats up to -11 add a SL and the
target isn't all that high anyway.

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:53:11 -0600

Message no. 32 Bruce wrote:
|
| >It doesn't expressly forbid it in the rules. The discussion has come
| >up from time to time with the outcome being that it's basically up to
| >each GM. And if you (or your GM) does allow gas vents on miniguns,
| >you can mount one gas vent per barrel (and in my game each barrel
| >must have the same type of gas vent). It all depends on your point of
| >view.
| >
| >-David
|
| It seems to be a little illogical (never mind expensive) to GV a minigun
| You see , by the time the necessary gas have gone through all the working
| parts and been expelled the barrel will be facing in another direction.
| Given even small variations in each GV this could cause wild fluctuations in
| the aim of the minigun and possibly (in my game definitly) giving positive
| (thats bad) modifiers to the target number. I geuss we must just accept the
| facts that miniguns are difficult and unwieldy and not intended for much
| more than mass firefight/supressing fire/lead hose kind of work.

Yeah, but then the arguement for technological advancements comes up.
Either using 2050's computer technology to design it, or use a computer
chip to control the gas vents.

I'm not argueing with you, just letting you know where the debate is
going to go :)

| Still nothing that sounds like the muthaf@#%^ though!!!!

And that's why they're so much fun :):):):)

BTW, congradulations on becoming an Uncle!

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:45:48 -0600

Message no. 33 andre eibel wrote:
|
[snip: gas venting a minigun]
|
| I would not allowed this idea in my game not even for NPC`s because
| my players the will reversenginer the damned thing.

I have a simple rule of thumb for my game. If the PCs use it, so
will the NPCs (sooner or later). If the PCs get a reputation for
dropping the opposition with a Vindicator either a) the bad guys will
start fighting fire with fire or b) they will attract attention in
the form of competition, hero worship, copycats, and/or law
enforcement. Occasionally I'll give things like a minigun to an NPC
for a purpose. Like teaching the Players that they should have gone
the subtle route. Or when capturing the PCs is part of the
storyline. Etc. Way back when I started the PCs took down an NPC
that had a LMG. That LMG is still hanging over the fireplace of one
of the PCs and hasn't been fired once. The PC is also still alive
and well because she's never attracted the attention of the
"heavies".

So, let the PCs do what they want, and respond accordingly :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:57:40 +0000

Message no. 34 > You see , by the time the necessary gas have gone through all the working
> parts and been expelled the barrel will be facing in another direction.
> Given even small variations in each GV this could cause wild fluctuations in
> the aim of the minigun and possibly (in my game definitly) giving positive
> (thats bad) modifiers to the target number.
Except one thing.. considering that the barrel traverses the exact
same length each time before the gas is expelled, the exact direction
is known, and thus it can be adjusted for. I still would only allow
the gas venting effect of *1* gas vent on the vindicator, while six
would have to be mounted, though. Why? There's only a sixth of the
gas compared to the recoil (Gas is divided by six barrels) so the
effect is divided by six. A tad artificial, buit it *IS* an
explanation.... :)

And it still is completely optional for each GM.

--
Rune Fostervoll

"But the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we no not of."

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:43:45 +1000

Message no. 35 > > >>>>>>>>That's only a what? -7 mod. who wants to tell me
you can gas vent a
> > minigun , please noone do that.
>
> The deluxe gyromount gives a -7 modifier, Then chuck on four rating 2 gas
> vents and you have a total of -15, totally negating all recoil. (Yes, you
> can put more than one gas vent on a minigun... However I'm not going to
> mention this to any player of mine unless they bring it up themselves.)
>

Can i quote you on that next time I'm playing a bad-ass troll?
<display *grin*>

I'll just say "Gurth told me that..." and the whole group will go,
"Oh, O.K. then."

On a more serious note, it does make a fair bit of sense; After all they
just have more barrels than a normal gun.

Has anyone here thought of making a rotorary grenade launcher?? (Probably
Vehicle mounted) Great for carpeting an area, but i wouldn't want to go
target shooting with one.

Marty

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:59:27 +0100

Message no. 36 andre eibel said on 14:58/ 6 Jun 97...

> At 06-Jun-97 wrote Gurth:
>
> >The deluxe gyromount gives a -7 modifier, Then chuck on four rating 2 gas
> >vents and you have a total of -15, totally negating all recoil. (Yes, you
> >can put more than one gas vent on a minigun... However I'm not going to
> >mention this to any player of mine unless they bring it up themselves.)
>
> Why four gas vents?

Because that's all you need to bring recoil down to nothing if you put the
weapon on a deluxe gyromount.

> The Vindicator has six barrels you would ruin the accuracy with venting only
> four of them.

Yeah, but I wasn't really concerned with that (and to be honest, neither
is SR). All in all I think I'd either disallow gas venting a minigun
completely, or charge the player through the nose for it because the vents
have to be essentially custom-made for the gun.

> So take six of them and a gyromount voila no recoil and virtually no
> movement penalties.

Yep, so everyone thinking of doing this, put six rating 3 gas vents onto
a minigun with smartlink II, rangefinder, and ultrasound-sight, and
place the whole mess on a gyromount. No recoil, no movement penalties,
halved visibility penalties, and -2 TN at Short and Medium, -3 at Long,
and -4 at Extreme ranges.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well that's allright now, you don't listen to me anyway.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	tom Cone <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:11:08 -1000

Message no. 37 >So everyone thinking of doing this...
You forgot to get opti mag:3, so that if it isn't dark/foggy/whatever,
on a clear day, you can (almost) see forever.

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:09:07 +0100

Message no. 38 Rune Fostervoll said on 1:57/ 7 Jun 97...

> Except one thing.. considering that the barrel traverses the exact
> same length each time before the gas is expelled, the exact direction
> is known, and thus it can be adjusted for. I still would only allow
> the gas venting effect of *1* gas vent on the vindicator, while six
> would have to be mounted, though. Why? There's only a sixth of the
> gas compared to the recoil (Gas is divided by six barrels) so the
> effect is divided by six. A tad artificial, buit it *IS* an
> explanation.... :)

Nope, a minigun (or more correctly, any rotary-barrel automatic weapon,
since "minigun" only refers to rifle-caliber weapons) loads and fires each
barrel separately. That's what allows it to achieve such a high rate of
fire: barrel 1 is just having a round loaded, barrel 2 has a round almost
completely loaded, barrel 3 is having its breech locked, barrel 4 fires,
barrel 5 starts to extract the empty casing, and barrel 6 has just had its
casing extracted completely. Then the whole mess turns through 60 degrees
and each barrel goes on to the next step (barrel 6 will start loading,
etc.).

Because of this mechanism, each barrel is in effect a separate weapon that
can be gas-vented independently from the others.

> And it still is completely optional for each GM.

Everything is... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well that's allright now, you don't listen to me anyway.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:09:07 +0100

Message no. 39 MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 11:43/ 7 Jun 97...

> Can i quote you on that next time I'm playing a bad-ass troll?
> <display *grin*>
>
> I'll just say "Gurth told me that..." and the whole group will go,
> "Oh, O.K. then."

:) Sure, do whatever you want, see if I care :)

> On a more serious note, it does make a fair bit of sense; After all they
> just have more barrels than a normal gun.

Although as has been brought up, due to the changing positions of the
barrels, gas venting it may need to be done very carefully if it is not to
knock the weapon from the target at least as far as normal recoil would.

> Has anyone here thought of making a rotorary grenade launcher?? (Probably
> Vehicle mounted) Great for carpeting an area, but i wouldn't want to go
> target shooting with one.

Normal automatic grenade launchers are probably good enough (at 450 rpm or
so) to suppress an area. Of course, add a few more barrels and you can do
a few thousand rpm, but the weapon would become rather large, and I have a
feeling the effectiveness wouldn't increase as much as to warrant the
increased size, weight, and cost.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well that's allright now, you don't listen to me anyway.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Marcin Serkies <yasiu@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sat, 7 Jun 1997 19:20:42 +0200

Message no. 40 At 11:43 AM 6/7/97 +1000, you wrote:

>Has anyone here thought of making a rotorary grenade launcher?? (Probably
>Vehicle mounted) Great for carpeting an area, but i wouldn't want to go
>target shooting with one.

Hmm it`s probably possible. Now military is using automatic grenade lauchers
so in 50 years they will develope rotary/multi-barrler one. But what stats
it will have. Normal grenades fired at high rate. What is recoil and how
much of space ammunition takes :)

c-ya

Yasiu

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sun, 8 Jun 1997 15:08:09 +0100

Message no. 41 In message <1.5.4.32.19970607172042.006949d8@******.com>, Marcin Serkies
<yasiu@******.COM> writes
>Hmm it`s probably possible. Now military is using automatic grenade lauchers
>so in 50 years they will develope rotary/multi-barrler one. But what stats
>it will have. Normal grenades fired at high rate. What is recoil and how
>much of space ammunition takes :)

It's feasable, just not necessary.

If you scale up the size and weight of the weapon and ammunition, and
accept the extra recoil, you end up better off with - say - a 30mm M230
cannon as fitted to the AH-64 Apache, or a mortar. The grenade launcher
is intermediate between those weapons, and its main niche is its
relatively light weight and mobility: take that away and its advantage
disappears,

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	Marcin Serkies <yasiu@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:31:04 +0200

Message no. 42 At 03:08 PM 6/8/97 +0100, you wrote:

>It's feasable, just not necessary.
>If you scale up the size and weight of the weapon and ammunition, and
>accept the extra recoil, you end up better off with - say - a 30mm M230
>cannon as fitted to the AH-64 Apache, or a mortar. The grenade launcher
>is intermediate between those weapons, and its main niche is its
>relatively light weight and mobility: take that away and its advantage
>disappears,

It`s good to mount it on vehicles. AFAIK now some military vehicles have
automatic grenade launchers mounted. It`s especially good for combat with
troops - lots of HE grenades fired at high rate can make big mess of flesh
and guts from entire platoon. So why not to mount bigger launcher to cover
more area with more lethal fire???

c-ya

Yasiu

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:16:25 -0600

Message no. 43 Rune Fostervoll wrote:
|
| > You see , by the time the necessary gas have gone through all the working
| > parts and been expelled the barrel will be facing in another direction.
| > Given even small variations in each GV this could cause wild fluctuations in
| > the aim of the minigun and possibly (in my game definitly) giving positive
| > (thats bad) modifiers to the target number.
|
| Except one thing.. considering that the barrel traverses the exact
| same length each time before the gas is expelled, the exact direction
| is known, and thus it can be adjusted for. I still would only allow
| the gas venting effect of *1* gas vent on the vindicator, while six
| would have to be mounted, though. Why? There's only a sixth of the
| gas compared to the recoil (Gas is divided by six barrels) so the
| effect is divided by six. A tad artificial, buit it *IS* an
| explanation.... :)

Then, do you feel that a round fired from a vindicator only generates
a sixth of a recoil? Per the rules each round fired generates +1
recoil. Therefor *if* you allow gas vents to be mounted on a
vindicator they should work as per the rules (-1 recoil per rating).

| And it still is completely optional for each GM.

Always :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	Kim Christiansen <kimc@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:44:10 +0100

Message no. 44 > From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
> Rune Fostervoll wrote:
> |
> | > You see , by the time the necessary gas have gone through all the
working
> | > parts and been expelled the barrel will be facing in another
direction.
> | > Given even small variations in each GV this could cause wild
fluctuations in
> | > the aim of the minigun and possibly (in my game definitly) giving
positive
> | > (thats bad) modifiers to the target number.
> |
> | Except one thing.. considering that the barrel traverses the exact
> | same length each time before the gas is expelled, the exact direction
> | is known, and thus it can be adjusted for. I still would only allow
> | the gas venting effect of *1* gas vent on the vindicator, while six
> | would have to be mounted, though. Why? There's only a sixth of the
> | gas compared to the recoil (Gas is divided by six barrels) so the
> | effect is divided by six. A tad artificial, buit it *IS* an
> | explanation.... :)
>
> Then, do you feel that a round fired from a vindicator only generates
> a sixth of a recoil? Per the rules each round fired generates +1
> recoil. Therefor *if* you allow gas vents to be mounted on a
> vindicator they should work as per the rules (-1 recoil per rating).
>

I have to put my two cents in here...

Has anyone considered rotational mass in their equations? To lower the
tangential moment of force, the gasvents would havce to be smaller than
those on a standard automatic weapon. Other than that, your going to get a
gyroscopic effect going. Really throwing off aiming and possibly throwing
the user around (unless mounted in a hardpoint ofcourse). This accounts for
the equivalent rating of six v.s. one GV.
I think that I remember enough of my engineering courses that I am correct
in assuming that if you mounted a standard gas vent4 on each barrel of a
minigun, anf it started turning some 600rpm, and say each gas vent weighed a
half a pound, at 600rpm the force generated by the additional weight would
be tremendous. I suppose that if each was equal in weight their might be a
slight benefit to them boing 60 degrees off of each other, but don't twist
the gun is all I can say.
Any comments out there from a real mechnanical or civil engineer???

kim

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Mini-Gun
Date:	Wed, 11 Jun 1997 07:32:05 -0600

Message no. 45 Kim Christiansen wrote:
|
| I have to put my two cents in here...

[snip: rotational mass]

Yup, this is where the debate goes. Into the land of technical
jargon :) Like I said at the start, since there are not rules one
way or the other, its up to the GM to decide if 2050's technology is
up to the task of mounting gas vents on miniguns or not. I.e., this
debate is ranked up with the Quickening debate :)

"To vent, or not to vent.. that, is the question."
-Any Orc on a Saturday night

-David
--
"What's the point spread on World War III?"
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Kevin Langevin <kevinl@******.COM>
Subject:	Vindicator Minigun
Date:	Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:15:47 -0500

Message no. 46 A question arose in my Shadowrun campaign yesterday (I'm a player in this
game). An NPC that we were up against had a Vindicator. We were looking
through the rules for heavy weapon recoil, and when we figured out the
recoil, it was some really sick number...I think it was like +12 or
somesuch. Now my question is, of what utility is a weapon like this if it
can spray bullets like that, but it's next to impossible to hit anything
with it?

What kind of accessories can be bought/added to a Vindicator to make it
worthwhile? What is the limit for recoil comp.? Is it necessary to use the
weapon in a gyro-mount to bring the recoil down to a reasonable level?

Anyone use these for their characters in their own campaigns?

-Kev

From:	Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Minigun
Date:	Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:21:33 +1000

Message no. 47 >A question arose in my Shadowrun campaign yesterday (I'm a player in this
>game). An NPC that we were up against had a Vindicator. We were looking
>through the rules for heavy weapon recoil, and when we figured out the
>recoil, it was some really sick number...I think it was like +12 or
>somesuch. Now my question is, of what utility is a weapon like this if it
>can spray bullets like that, but it's next to impossible to hit anything
>with it?
>
>What kind of accessories can be bought/added to a Vindicator to make it
>worthwhile? What is the limit for recoil comp.? Is it necessary to use the
>weapon in a gyro-mount to bring the recoil down to a reasonable level?

The point is that these weapons are not designed to be used as man-portable
weapons. With the advent of characters with Terminator-like strength, they
_become_ man-portable - but they were designed to be used at least on a
mount and more likely on a vehicle.

Which is why the recoil is gross if you're using it man-portable.
(Remember, vehicle turrets cancel out the heavy-weapons recoil mod don't
they?)

Lady Jestyr

- The Australian dream: Football, meat pies and Holden cars. -
- Holdens are American, meat pies are British, and football is stupid. -
- jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -

From:	jpmumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Minigun
Date:	Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:36:08 -0500

Message no. 48 Kevin Langevin wrote:

> A question arose in my Shadowrun campaign yesterday (I'm a player in this
> game). An NPC that we were up against had a Vindicator. We were looking
> through the rules for heavy weapon recoil, and when we figured out the
> recoil, it was some really sick number...I think it was like +12 or
> somesuch. Now my question is, of what utility is a weapon like this if it
> can spray bullets like that, but it's next to impossible to hit anything
> with it?
>
> What kind of accessories can be bought/added to a Vindicator to make it
> worthwhile? What is the limit for recoil comp.? Is it necessary to use the
> weapon in a gyro-mount to bring the recoil down to a reasonable level?
>
> Anyone use these for their characters in their own campaigns?
>
> -Kev

Ok yes the recoil is discusting. But with a high quality Gyromount <needed
yes> and gas venting with shock pads and the works then yes the gun works but
still has a discusting sum of recoil. But if you take into account that minimum
rate of fire is 15 rounds <I believe this is from memory after all> then you can
use the cover fire rules and cover fire rules with a 22d weapon are MORE than a
little discusting.

Grimlakin

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Minigun
Date:	Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:45:50 -0500

Message no. 49 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:36 PM 11/9/98 -0500, Grimlakin wrote:
> Ok yes the recoil is discusting. But with a high quality Gyromount
<needed
>yes> and gas venting with shock pads and the works then yes the gun
works but
>still has a discusting sum of recoil.

You let someone put gas venting on their minigun? I've always ruled
against it due to the fact that gas venting is a barrel mount
accesory, and the Vindicator has six seperate barrels. I suppose it
could be done, but I'd at least make whoever wanted to do this have to
get a seperate gas vent for each barrel.

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From:	jpmumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vindicator Minigun
Date:	Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:00:00 -0500

Message no. 50 Paul Gettle wrote:

<SNIP MY STUFF>

> You let someone put gas venting on their minigun? I've always ruled
> against it due to the fact that gas venting is a barrel mount
> accesory, and the Vindicator has six seperate barrels. I suppose it
> could be done, but I'd at least make whoever wanted to do this have to
> get a seperate gas vent for each barrel.

That makes sense the gas venting for each barrel limited to like a gv two
or three but nothing above that because of the size of the venting. I
don't know if it us ruled impossible. But the rules for cover fire work
great with the minigun. :)

Grimlakin

Message no. 51 > A question arose in my Shadowrun campaign yesterday (I'm a player in this
> game). An NPC that we were up against had a Vindicator. We were looking
> through the rules for heavy weapon recoil, and when we figured out the
> recoil, it was some really sick number...I think it was like +12 or
> somesuch. Now my question is, of what utility is a weapon like this if it
> can spray bullets like that, but it's next to impossible to hit anything
> with it?

First tip: do not fire 15 round autofire bursts, but
split it into, say, five 3 - round AF bursts. With a gyro
mount and ample strength (Say, a beefed up troll can have 13 str,
giving 5 pt RC, add gyro mount (6) and shock pads (1) and you have 12
pt recoil compensation.. only the last burst gets recoil penalty at
all. (or two 6 round bursts, still with no penalty). Remember to
double uncompesated recoil.

> What kind of accessories can be bought/added to a Vindicator to make it
> worthwhile?

Well, the most obvious would be a good gyro mount or tripod and shock
pads, and a teensy little smartgun link. I do not think a magscope,
laser sight, bipod or barrel accessory would be very useful, IMO.
Arguably, you can use a gas vent but at the least you'd have to have
one for each barrel (6?) and they would NOT be cumulative.

Tracer ammo might be worth considering if you really, really want to
fire a full 15 round salvo at someone. If you fire a 12 round burst
with the setup above you have -4 to TN... in other words, tn 2
despite max cover OUCH! (You only get to do 15D instead of 19D,
though, which might be a serious turn-off for some.).

Strength (optional rule in Fields of Fire) might also add recoil
compensation.

> What is the limit for recoil comp.? Is it necessary to use the
> weapon in a gyro-mount to bring the recoil down to a reasonable level?
It helps. A tripod can be used as well. Tripods, once in place, is
better than gyro mounts.

> Anyone use these for their characters in their own campaigns?

Not normally, no... they've used it once, pretty hairy mission. Had
a belt feed to a backpack of 500 rounds....
... and the chrome dude spent'em all in one building...

Regards,

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

Message no. 52 > -----Original Message-----
> From: Fade [mailto:runefo@***.UIO.NO]
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 4:31 PM
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Vindicator Minigun
>
> First tip: do not fire 15 round autofire bursts, but
> split it into, say, five 3 - round AF bursts. With a gyro
> mount and ample strength (Say, a beefed up troll can have 13 str,
> giving 5 pt RC, add gyro mount (6) and shock pads (1) and you have 12
> pt recoil compensation.. only the last burst gets recoil penalty at
> all. (or two 6 round bursts, still with no penalty). Remember to
> double uncompesated recoil.

I didn't think that was possible...I thought the Vindicator had a permanent
ROF of 15 rounds on autofire. Is it capable of doing burst fire?

-Kev

Message no. 53 > > First tip: do not fire 15 round autofire bursts, but
> > split it into, say, five 3 - round AF bursts. With a gyro
> > mount and ample strength (Say, a beefed up troll can have 13 str,
> > giving 5 pt RC, add gyro mount (6) and shock pads (1) and you have 12
> > pt recoil compensation.. only the last burst gets recoil penalty at
> > all. (or two 6 round bursts, still with no penalty). Remember to
> > double uncompesated recoil.
>
> I didn't think that was possible...I thought the Vindicator had a permanent
> ROF of 15 rounds on autofire. Is it capable of doing burst fire?

It's not 'burst fire', it's 'full auto burst fire'.
Read 'Full-Auto mode, p. 115. The only thing which is unclear is
wether you can fire two FA bursts at the same person. According to
the rules, that is probably not possible, while I've previously
assumed it was. The example isn't helpful in that particular regard
either, so I'd say it's GM fiat on that call.

The example says,
".. he limits his targets to the first three gangers, hitting each
one with full-auto bursts consisting of 3, 3 and 4 rounds,
respectively."

The example continues on to describe how recoil etc. is applied. It
is a lot clearer than the exact rule text, which isn't that helpful,
IMHO.

Regards,

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

Message no. 54 > -----Original Message-----
> From: Fade [mailto:runefo@***.UIO.NO]
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 4:56 PM
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Vindicator Minigun
>
>
> It's not 'burst fire', it's 'full auto burst fire'.
> Read 'Full-Auto mode, p. 115. The only thing which is unclear is
> wether you can fire two FA bursts at the same person. According to
> the rules, that is probably not possible, while I've previously
> assumed it was. The example isn't helpful in that particular regard
> either, so I'd say it's GM fiat on that call.
>
> The example says,
> ".. he limits his targets to the first three gangers, hitting each
> one with full-auto bursts consisting of 3, 3 and 4 rounds,
> respectively."
>
> The example continues on to describe how recoil etc. is applied. It
> is a lot clearer than the exact rule text, which isn't that helpful,
> IMHO.

Ah...I remember reading that example...I'll go back and check them out.
Thanks...

Message no. 55 Kevin Langevin wrote:
>
> A question arose in my Shadowrun campaign yesterday (I'm a player in this
> game). An NPC that we were up against had a Vindicator. We were looking
> through the rules for heavy weapon recoil, and when we figured out the
> recoil, it was some really sick number...I think it was like +12 or
> somesuch. Now my question is, of what utility is a weapon like this if it
> can spray bullets like that, but it's next to impossible to hit anything
> with it?
>
> What kind of accessories can be bought/added to a Vindicator to make it
> worthwhile? What is the limit for recoil comp.? Is it necessary to use the
> weapon in a gyro-mount to bring the recoil down to a reasonable level?
>
> Anyone use these for their characters in their own campaigns?
>
> -Kev

In the campaign I rp in, we dropped recoil substantially for miniguns and such. However,
we raised the target by two as a base to hit stuff because of the spraying action. IRL,
miniguns actually don't have as much recoil as they're cracked up to be. The only thing
is the vibration from the spinning barrels which will leave your arm tingly. (I'd know;
I've witnessed one being fired)

But anyway.. a cyberarm gyromount and gas-ventage would be my suggestions for recoil
compensators.

Nocturnal

Message no. 56 For the mere cost of a Thaum, Kevin Langevin wrote:
/
/ A question arose in my Shadowrun campaign yesterday (I'm a player in this
/ game). An NPC that we were up against had a Vindicator. We were looking
/ through the rules for heavy weapon recoil, and when we figured out the
/ recoil, it was some really sick number...I think it was like +12 or
/ somesuch. Now my question is, of what utility is a weapon like this if it
/ can spray bullets like that, but it's next to impossible to hit anything
/ with it?
/
/ What kind of accessories can be bought/added to a Vindicator to make it
/ worthwhile?

Mount it on a vehicle, which will reduce a lot of the recoil, or on
something solid, like a bunker, which will reduce all the recoil (this
last one is a house rule of mine as the rules don't address this).

/ What is the limit for recoil comp.?

There is no limit.

/ Anyone use these for their characters in their own campaigns?

I've got an NPC Troll Adept that uses one. However, he doesn't try to
hit his target. He uses the supressive fire rules in Fields of Fire,
which determines if you hit based on how many rounds are fired into an
area and the size of the area. Recoil penalties don't affect
suppressive fire.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

Message no. 57 On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:00:00 -0500 jpmumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
writes:
>Paul Gettle wrote:

><SNIP MY STUFF>

>> You let someone put gas venting on their minigun? I've always ruled
>> against it due to the fact that gas venting is a barrel mount
>> accesory, and the Vindicator has six seperate barrels. I suppose it
>> could be done, but I'd at least make whoever wanted to do this have to
>> get a seperate gas vent for each barrel.

>That makes sense the gas venting for each barrel limited to like a gv
two
>or three but nothing above that because of the size of the venting. I
>don't know if it us ruled impossible. But the rules for cover fire work
>great with the minigun. :)

Hmmm ... Actually, that depends on how the barrels rotate. If the
Barrels form a circle that spins about an axis and do not themselves
spin, then "up" will always be the same when the particular barrel is
firing. If the barrels spins, then sometimes when the gun is firing, the
Gas Vent will work against you instead of for you (Ie, increase barrel
rise instead of reducing it.).

Does that make sense? Do I misunderstand how Gas-Vent works?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 58 Thus spake Kevin Langevin:
>
> A question arose in my Shadowrun campaign yesterday (I'm a player in this
> game). An NPC that we were up against had a Vindicator. We were looking
> through the rules for heavy weapon recoil, and when we figured out the
> recoil, it was some really sick number...I think it was like +12 or
> somesuch. Now my question is, of what utility is a weapon like this if it
> can spray bullets like that, but it's next to impossible to hit anything
> with it?
>
> What kind of accessories can be bought/added to a Vindicator to make it
> worthwhile? What is the limit for recoil comp.? Is it necessary to use the
> weapon in a gyro-mount to bring the recoil down to a reasonable level?
>
> Anyone use these for their characters in their own campaigns?

One word: suppressive fire. :-)

--
Mike Loseke | If at first you don't succeed,
mike@*******.com | increase the amperage.

Message no. 59 > Hmmm ... Actually, that depends on how the barrels rotate. If the
> Barrels form a circle that spins about an axis and do not themselves
> spin, then "up" will always be the same when the particular barrel is
> firing. If the barrels spins, then sometimes when the gun is firing, the
> Gas Vent will work against you instead of for you (Ie, increase barrel
> rise instead of reducing it.).
>
> Does that make sense? Do I misunderstand how Gas-Vent works?

I think you're thinking of it right, but the only miniguns I've seen spin
on an axis with the barrel that's firing it on the top. But for venting to
work on a multibarrel, you'd need one for each barrel, aligned so it's
pointed the right way when it fires. But in the game I run in, we use
normal recoil rules for everything except weapons with 6 or more rotating
barrels. A bit of practical experience, and a lot of observation, miniguns
have _very_ little felt recoil. Even with the one time I saw a 15mm fired
at a show in the US, there was almost zero rise, and it wasn't on a mount
or anything. It was pretty cool, they were shooting at barrels of gas.

Message no. 60 On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:41:37 -0800 Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
writes:
<SNIP>
>But in the game I run in, we use
>normal recoil rules for everything except weapons with 6 or more
rotating
>barrels. A bit of practical experience, and a lot of observation,
miniguns
>have _very_ little felt recoil. Even with the one time I saw a 15mm
fired
>at a show in the US, there was almost zero rise, and it wasn't on a
mount
>or anything. It was pretty cool, they were shooting at barrels of gas.

I'm guessing that's because of the rotation ... I don't really know the
physics of it (Just started on rotation today) ... I think it has
something to do with torque and/or rotantional inertia. Basicly, because
the bugger is massive and spinning, it doesn't want to move (at least not
the way the recoil wants to move the gun). However, if this true, then
how can you move the gun around, swing it, etc? Adam, do you know what
gives? ;)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 61 Quoting D. Ghost (dghost@****.COM):
> I'm guessing that's because of the rotation ... I don't really know the
> physics of it (Just started on rotation today) ... I think it has
> something to do with torque and/or rotantional inertia. Basicly, because
> the bugger is massive and spinning, it doesn't want to move (at least not
> the way the recoil wants to move the gun). However, if this true, then
> how can you move the gun around, swing it, etc? Adam, do you know what
> gives? ;)

Yeah, I was just thinking about this - the spinning barrels
should act as a gyroscope, and resist any attempt to change the direction
of their axis (moving it up or down, left or right would be fine, as
long as you didn't TURN it). I don't know if that actually happens, but
it'd make sense.
As far as the recoil goes - well, we've had some noise in our
campaign from the Army vet about the recoil rules being all messed up,
and we talked a little about changing them (actually, it was the full-auto
rules, specifically). For a minigun, though...you're using a vehicle
weapon as a sidearm, man. Don't complain about the recoil, just suck up
and deal. If it bothers you, put it back on the assault vehicle where it
belongs :)

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4

Message no. 62 --

On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:43:18 Mike Loseke wrote:

> One word: suppressive fire. :-)

Could someone please describe the rules for suppressive fire for those of us who do not
have Fields of Fire?

-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

Message no. 63 -----Original Message-----
From: Gene Evans <downd@***********.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 10 November 1998 09:32
Subject: Re: Vindicator Minigun

>--
>
>On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:43:18 Mike Loseke wrote:
>
>> One word: suppressive fire. :-)
>
>
>
> Could someone please describe the rules for suppressive fire for
those of us who do not have Fields of Fire?

In general terms, the more bullets you put into an area the more
likely you are to hit someone in that area.
I cant think of more to say without getting the copyright boys pretty
pissed. Just how far are we allowed to go with describing rules? I
mean the point is that if you want to know something, you either buy
the book or get a house rule.... am I right?

Message no. 64 According to Kevin Langevin, at 14:15 on 9 Nov 98, the word on the street
was...

> A question arose in my Shadowrun campaign yesterday (I'm a player in this
> game). An NPC that we were up against had a Vindicator. We were looking
> through the rules for heavy weapon recoil, and when we figured out the
> recoil, it was some really sick number...I think it was like +12 or
> somesuch. Now my question is, of what utility is a weapon like this if it
> can spray bullets like that, but it's next to impossible to hit anything
> with it?

There are four solutions to this:

1) add lots of rcoil compensation (gyro mount, gas vent on each barrel
(according to former DLOH Tom Dowd, this is legal), etc.);
2) fire short bursts -- yes, a minigun _always_ fires 15 rounds, but they
don't need to be at the same target: fire six at the intended target and
nine at a nearby computer, if you have to;
3) use it for suppressive fire as per the rules in Fields of Fire;
4) use house rules for autofire (check the WWW or <plug>my web site for
The Player's Guide to Shadowrun House Rules</plug> for some examples)

> What kind of accessories can be bought/added to a Vindicator to make it
> worthwhile? What is the limit for recoil comp.? Is it necessary to use the
> weapon in a gyro-mount to bring the recoil down to a reasonable level?

You could add a gyromount of the highest rating you can find to give a -7
or so to recoil, then add a gas vent to each barrel to further take down
the recoil. That way a Vindicator gets decidedly too nasty, because you're
bound to hit with 15 rounds or so regardless of what you're shooting at...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Perjury does not include lying if lying is the
only sensible way to get you out of trouble.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 65 According to Kevin Langevin, at 15:41 on 9 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> I didn't think that was possible...I thought the Vindicator had a permanent
> ROF of 15 rounds on autofire. Is it capable of doing burst fire?

No, but you don't need to fire 15 rounds at one target. You can use the
rules for Multiple Targets (SRII p. 93/SR3 p. 116) to fire part of the 15-
round burst at the primary target, and the rest at secondary targets you
don't need to take down absolutely immediately.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Perjury does not include lying if lying is the
only sensible way to get you out of trouble.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 66 For the mere cost of a Thaum, Gurth wrote:
/
/ According to Kevin Langevin, the word on the street was...
/
/ > I didn't think that was possible...I thought the Vindicator had a permanent
/ > ROF of 15 rounds on autofire. Is it capable of doing burst fire?
/
/ No, but you don't need to fire 15 rounds at one target. You can use the
/ rules for Multiple Targets (SRII p. 93/SR3 p. 116) to fire part of the 15-
/ round burst at the primary target, and the rest at secondary targets you
/ don't need to take down absolutely immediately.

Or, if you want to get really evil, fire as many rounds as you have
points of recoil compensation, and then fire the rest as suppressive
fire at the area the target is standing in. So, if you had the minigun
on a rating 6 gyro mount you'd fire six rounds *at* the target, and
then use the 9 remaining rounds for suppressive fire on the target's
area.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

Message no. 67 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:11 PM 11/10/98 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>> I didn't think that was possible...I thought the Vindicator had a
permanent
>> ROF of 15 rounds on autofire. Is it capable of doing burst fire?
>
>No, but you don't need to fire 15 rounds at one target. You can use
the
>rules for Multiple Targets (SRII p. 93/SR3 p. 116) to fire part of
the 15-
>round burst at the primary target, and the rest at secondary targets
you
>don't need to take down absolutely immediately.

Another thing to consider: It's true that Fields of Fire established a
fixed Rate of Fire for minigun class weapons (Pull the trigger, and
you _will_ be firing of 15 rounds that combat phase) but a few years
later, Rigger 2 put forth a new set of rules for two of the three
weapons in the minigun class.

By Rigger 2, the Vengeance and Vanquisher miniguns have a minimum rate
of fire of 6 rounds per combat phase, and a maximum of 15. This brings
them more in line with the full-auto rules used by the
Super-Machinegun class of weapons. There's nothing about the
Vindicator in Rigger 2, but I'm inclined to use the
Vengeance/Vanquisher rules for the Vindicator too. It doesn't seem
right to have one set of rules for 2 of the guns in the minigun class,
and a different set of rules for the third.

It's interesting to note that under R2, the Vengeance and Vanquisher
cannot accept gas-vent recoil compensation. Another thing I noticed is
that a reference is made to the "standard [maximum autofire rate of]
10 rounds per combat phase". Wasn't there a bit of a controversy on
the list a few months back when someone noticed that SR3 doesn't list
a maximum autofire rate, and when we went back to SR2, we found that
there isn't a maximum listed there either?

Getting back to the original question of the thread, something along
the lines of "what good is a Vindicator if the recoil makes it
unuseable as a weapon," I'd like to point out something I think hasn't
been mentioned yet. Several people have pointed out that the
Vindicator should really be a vehicle mounted weapon. I would just
like to point out that Drones count as vehicles too. If you put your
Vindicator on a drone, it'll have as much mobility as if it one of the
team was holding it, and you get the recoil comp bonuses of vehicle
mounting.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

Message no. 68 >I'm guessing that's because of the rotation ... I don't really know the
>physics of it (Just started on rotation today) ... I think it has
>something to do with torque and/or rotantional inertia. Basicly, because
>the bugger is massive and spinning, it doesn't want to move (at least not
>the way the recoil wants to move the gun). However, if this true, then
>how can you move the gun around, swing it, etc? Adam, do you know what
>gives? ;)

Assuming the weapon rotates counterclockwise, it will generate an angular
momentum vector parallel with the barrel but pointing outwards. The
magnitude of this vector will be the moment of inertia about the center of
rotation times the instantaneous angular velocity. If the gun is symmetric
about the center of rotation and radially homogenous (i.e. barrels aren't
made of different density materials, and the density function does not
depend on angle) then the moment of inertia will be fairly easy to figure
using cylindrical coordinates.

This vector does not directly oppose recoil, however.

You can get some preliminary numbers if you know the mass of each barrel
and its distance from the center of rotation by using the parallel axis
theorem. I for each barrel is m*r^2, and you can multiply by 6 to get all 6
barrels. So if each barrel weighs 5 kg and is offset 2 cm you get I ~ 0.012
kg-m^2. Angular velocity is easy ... if ROF is 3,000 rounds per minute each
barrel fires 500 rpm which corresponds to omega = 500 rev/minute or 52.35
rad/s. Thus total angular momentum is ~ 0.6282 kg-m^2/s.

Anything trying to change the axis of the barrel will have to do work to
change the angular momentum vector: torque is time rate of change of
angular momentum. Rapid changes (such as recoil) are likely to be resisted
due to the amount of torque necessary, but slow changes such as moving the
barrel will meet with less "opposing" torque. (In reality, these forces are
ficticious because you are dealing with a rotating frame of reference).

So, while angular momentum does not directly oppose recoil, when the recoil
tries to cause a rapid change (such as lifting the barrel) angular momentum
will reduce this tendency.

>D. Ghost

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

Message no. 69 :Hmmm ... Actually, that depends on how the barrels rotate. If the
:Barrels form a circle that spins about an axis and do not themselves
:spin, then "up" will always be the same when the particular barrel is
:firing. If the barrels spins, then sometimes when the gun is firing, the
:Gas Vent will work against you instead of for you (Ie, increase barrel
:rise instead of reducing it.).
:
:Does that make sense? Do I misunderstand how Gas-Vent works?

You seem to have the concept of gas venting (vectored exhaust gas- its
not rocket science <g>). But your picture of a minigun is, um, bizarre.
Theres no point I could see in having the barrel rotate independently.
As described in SR, mini-guns are an evolution of the gattling gun. A
gattling gun is basically several bolt action guns mounted to rotate on an
axis. [I am aware of that machine guns are quite different, but do not
know the mechanism of modern rotating barrel guns] A cam mechanism works
the bolt and firing mechanism as the barrels rotate, and they share a
single ammo feed. The end result is that each barrel fires from the same
position; usually dead center bottom in old GG's, but sometimes dead
center top. Either, IMO, would serve for gas venting. Either could be
made to work with gas venting, although venting into the center might make
for more cleaning. A good portion is just directed to either side, also
(for muzzle brakes)- if you cancel the recoils direct push backwards, you
don't need to cancel the muzzle climb: there would not be any.

Message no. 70 For the mere cost of a Thaum, Adam Getchell wrote:
/
/ So, while angular momentum does not directly oppose recoil, when the recoil
/ tries to cause a rapid change (such as lifting the barrel) angular momentum
/ will reduce this tendency.

So, if I followed this correctly, skipping a frisbee off the ground (by
nicking the left edge against the ground which causes the forward edge
to rise) is easy because it has a low mass and isn't spinning that fast
(relatively speaking). However, doing the same thing with a minigun
("tapping" it up with recoil, causing it to swing to the right) isn't
as effective because the mass of the barrels are higher and it's
spinning very quickly. Whereas the gyroscopic effects are less
reactive to relatively gradual changes in attitude (those brought about
by aiming the minigun). Did I get that right? :)

So in short, miniguns are resistant to recoil effects, but can still be
"aimed".

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

Message no. 71 On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:10:51 -0600 Mongoose <evamarie@**********.net>
writes:
>:Hmmm ... Actually, that depends on how the barrels rotate. If the
>:Barrels form a circle that spins about an axis and do not themselves
>:spin, then "up" will always be the same when the particular barrel is
>:firing. If the barrels spins, then sometimes when the gun is firing,
the
>:Gas Vent will work against you instead of for you (Ie, increase barrel
>:rise instead of reducing it.).
>:
>:Does that make sense? Do I misunderstand how Gas-Vent works?

> You seem to have the concept of gas venting (vectored exhaust gas-
its
>not rocket science <g>). But your picture of a minigun is, um, bizarre.
>Theres no point I could see in having the barrel rotate independently.
<SNIP>

I was just speculating on what circumstances the Gas Venting WOULDN'T
work and sort of thinking out loud. :) I know the individual barrels
don't rotate. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 72 >spinning very quickly. Whereas the gyroscopic effects are less
>reactive to relatively gradual changes in attitude (those brought about
>by aiming the minigun). Did I get that right? :)
>
>So in short, miniguns are resistant to recoil effects, but can still be
>"aimed".

Right. Details of how much, etc, are gained by solving for torque through
taking the time derivative of angular momentum ...

>-David B.
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

Message no. 73 Adam (Science Guy) said
>So, while angular momentum does not directly oppose recoil, when the
recoil
>tries to cause a rapid change (such as lifting the barrel) angular
momentum
>will reduce this tendency.

So, lets implement this. Anyone got a house rule for reduced recoil on
the back burner that they want to share?
BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
*Executive Engineer* *FrontLine Games*
Yo soy un disco quebrado
Yo tengo chicle en cerebro
sm:)e

Message no. 74 According to Mongoose, at 14:10 on 10 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> As described in SR, mini-guns are an evolution of the gattling gun. A
> gattling gun is basically several bolt action guns mounted to rotate on an
> axis. [I am aware of that machine guns are quite different, but do not
> know the mechanism of modern rotating barrel guns]

They work exactly as you described for Gatling guns, except driven by an
electric motor. The first experiments in the 1940s or '50s actually used a
19th century Gatling gun to which an electric motor was added in place of
the hand crank.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
He likes to sleep. Sometimes he has good dreams.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 75 For the mere cost of a Thaum, Bruce wrote:
/
/ Adam (Science Guy) said
/ >So, while angular momentum does not directly oppose recoil, when the
/ recoil
/ >tries to cause a rapid change (such as lifting the barrel) angular
/ momentum
/ >will reduce this tendency.
/
/ So, lets implement this. Anyone got a house rule for reduced recoil on
/ the back burner that they want to share?

...you could just use the current rules for gyromounts. Rate the
recoil compensation for miniguns the same you would for gyromounts
(4-8?). A spinning minigun would also have the same drawback as an
active gyromount (it would make it dificult for your character to
maneuver). And adjust the cost of the minigun appropriately based on
it's recoil rating.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

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