Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Asher Rosenberg <ASROSENBERG@******.com>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 21:28:31 -0700
Loki wrote:
> I agree with Gurth on this, the S/R world is a violent and hostile place
> but not one designed outright to kill the PC's. I try to portray the
> paranoia and strongest-shall-survive type of feelings in it. But characters
> with some smarts and instincts that are played well should be able to
> survive at some lengths. I never throw completely overwhelming odds of
> opposition at you (unless you bring it on yourselves). :o)

It seems my previous postings came across as being more critical of the violence in
ShadowRun than I had intended.
My post about the mortality rate in S/R being higher than other games was based on my
experience in those other games. And in most of those other games, it is very difficult
for a character to die unless the GM's pissed off, or the character makes some really
stupid decisions (or really bad rolls.)
I've GM'd 3 differrent system, and have played characters in at least 4 more.
And in most of these games, (it's seemed to me that) the way the rules are written tend
to protect the PC's, more than challenge them.
Shadowrun is, IMO, more challenging than nurturing. Surviving is not impossible, or even
overly difficult. Screw up, however, and you'll get hurt. Keep screwing up and
eventually you'll be dead.
Simple, and realistic. Which is what I like about the game.

<<The above is only my opinion. Which means its probably correct.>>
<<But it may be wrong. Stranger things have happened. >>
Message no. 2
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:19:53 +0100
Asher Rosenberg said on 21:28/ 7 Oct 96...

> It seems my previous postings came across as being more critical of the
> violence in ShadowRun than I had intended.
> My post about the mortality rate in S/R being higher than other games
> was based on my experience in those other games. And in most of those
> other games, it is very difficult for a character to die unless the GM's
> pissed off, or the character makes some really stupid decisions (or
> really bad rolls.)

Naturally, if you piss GM off, your character stands a higher chance of
dying than when you hadn't. Now we can have all this crap about "fair
GMing" etc. etc. but GMs are people too (even though not everybody
remembers that all the time :)

> I've GM'd 3 differrent system, and have played characters in at least 4
> more. And in most of these games, (it's seemed to me that) the way the
> rules are written tend to protect the PC's, more than challenge them.

I've found FASA games in general to be easy on the characters. Sure, if
the GM wants to kill the characters, they die (use the piano ploy if
necessary). Still, the two times I've GMed CP2020, characters ended up
dead, which hasn't happened in 3 1/2 years of playing SR despite using
about the same level of violence in both games.
One of my "mistakes" was giving the CP2020 bad guy (some drug dealer or
other) an assault rifle, which is easy enough to live through in SR.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Learn their rules, play their game, deceive yourself in haste.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 3
From: "Norbert G. Matausch (BulletShower)" <NMATAUSC@****.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:03:35 +1000
Gurth wrote on Tue, 8 Oct 1996:

> I've found FASA games in general to be easy on the characters. Sure, if
> the GM wants to kill the characters, they die (use the piano ploy if
> necessary). Still, the two times I've GMed CP2020, characters ended up
> dead, which hasn't happened in 3 1/2 years of playing SR despite using
> about the same level of violence in both games.
> One of my "mistakes" was giving the CP2020 bad guy (some drug dealer or
> other) an assault rifle, which is easy enough to live through in SR.

That's it, exactly. SR is a cinematic, heroic game which emphasises
spectacular effects. CP2020 is based on kinda realistic statistics on
bullet impact energy, tissue rupture, and so on and so forth.

Even running around in full armor doesn't give your pc too great a
chance to survive a massive "bombenhagel". Theoretically it's
possible (as the NAGRL also points out) to survive a nuclear
explosion at its center. Very realistic.


As I'm the proud owner of a SR1 HC, I don't know *how* easy it really
is to survive an assault gun shot in SR2. Let's take an average
human, unarmored, Bod 3. What damage does (s)he end up with?

C'ya,
Bullet
_____________________________________________________________
"Just WHAT are you?"
"I'm a Terminator, Cyberdyne Model No. 1000."
"What do you do?"
"I terminate."

(Arnold Schwarzenegger, in "Terminator II: Judgment Day")
Message no. 4
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 08:17:56 +1000 (EST)
> As I'm the proud owner of a SR1 HC, I don't know *how* easy it really
> is to survive an assault gun shot in SR2. Let's take an average
> human, unarmored, Bod 3. What damage does (s)he end up with?

Dead. :)

Unless very lucky. Assault rifles do 8M/9M I think, and four successes on
a firearms (fair to assume) will stage that to Deadly. Say that average
human (all 3 on attributes) has Combat Pool 4 and Body 3 - even allowing
for all 8s (or 9s as the case may be, and VERRRRY unlikely), they'd still
take a L wound. On those dice they should only come up with ONE success,
which means they're dead. :) Even if Mr Shooter didn't stage the damage
up (and how likely's that?), they've still got a M wound.


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: 3011_3@***.EDU
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 18:18:08 -0700 (PDT)
> > It seems my previous postings came across as being more critical of the
> > violence in ShadowRun than I had intended.
<snip, PC death>
>
> Naturally, if you piss GM off, your character stands a higher chance of
> dying than when you hadn't. Now we can have all this crap about "fair
> GMing" etc. etc. but GMs are people too (even though not everybody
> remembers that all the time :)
>
> > I've GM'd 3 differrent system, and have played characters in at least 4
> > more. And in most of these games, (it's seemed to me that) the way the
> > rules are written tend to protect the PC's, more than challenge them.
<snip>

I'll have to agree with this one. I've played 4 different game systems,
and with most of them PC survival is generally an easy thing; instant or
one hit kills are virtually non-existant. As for challenging,
that not the systems fault; the GM is responsible for that. 'GMs are
people too..', I know... but but in all the campaigns I've played in
whether low-powered, high-powered or super-powered, , the GMs have been
able to challenge the players without exceeding the scope or realism of
the campaign... (2cents...)

---Tom---
Message no. 6
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 13:09:28 +0100
Norbert G. Matausch (BulletSh said on 15:03/ 8 Oct 96...

> Even running around in full armor doesn't give your pc too great a
> chance to survive a massive "bombenhagel". Theoretically it's
> possible (as the NAGRL also points out) to survive a nuclear
> explosion at its center. Very realistic.

What, you mean you don't believe someone can do that? :)

> As I'm the proud owner of a SR1 HC, I don't know *how* easy it really
> is to survive an assault gun shot in SR2. Let's take an average
> human, unarmored, Bod 3. What damage does (s)he end up with?

Probably about Moderate or so, Serious if the attacker rolled well (2+
successes), and Light if the attacker rolled bad (1 success) and the
target managed to get three 8s somehow. If you throw in Combat Pool on
one or both sides, this might start to look somewhat different, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Learn their rules, play their game, deceive yourself in haste.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 7
From: Marty <s457033@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:00:31 +1000 (EST)
> > As I'm the proud owner of a SR1 HC, I don't know *how* easy it really
> > is to survive an assault gun shot in SR2. Let's take an average
> > human, unarmored, Bod 3. What damage does (s)he end up with?
>
> Probably about Moderate or so, Serious if the attacker rolled well (2+
> successes), and Light if the attacker rolled bad (1 success) and the
> target managed to get three 8s somehow. If you throw in Combat Pool on
> one or both sides, this might start to look somewhat different, though.
>
????????

Assault shotgun? They do between 8S and 10S, and are all burst capable,
so if you assume that the guy only fires once, its still looking pretty
grim for the unarmored pedestrian.

Likely the shooter is going to get enough successes to stage it to deadly,
and the pedestrian needs two 8's on three dice to even survive.... Not
likely.

Shotguns are very scary if you're running a low armour campaign.
(Which we are)

Here's a question of my own; How do you guys figure the damage on
shotguns??? Does the damage code stated in the book (9S, etc)
incorporate the flechette?? We (sometimes) play that it doesn't, which puts
the damage from a shot round at an automatic deadly.

If it does, why would anyone use a solid slug, because the damage is only
9M, while a sporting rifle does 9S.
Message no. 8
From: "Loki" <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 00:14:29 -0700
> As I'm the proud owner of a SR1 HC, I don't know *how* easy it really
> is to survive an assault gun shot in SR2.

Cool! I'm currently the proud owner of two SR1 HC's and three SR2 HC's.
(However, that's about to drop as Rookie wants to buy one of the SR2's for
$30.)

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 9
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:58:16 +0100
Marty said on 8:00/10 Oct 96...

> ????????
>
> Assault shotgun? They do between 8S and 10S, and are all burst capable,
> so if you assume that the guy only fires once, its still looking pretty
> grim for the unarmored pedestrian.

Note that Norbert said "assault gun shot" which I took to mean "assault
rifle shot". With an assault shotgun, yes, any unarmored pedestrian
(trolls included) will be minced meat after a burst.

> Here's a question of my own; How do you guys figure the damage on
> shotguns??? Does the damage code stated in the book (9S, etc)
> incorporate the flechette?? We (sometimes) play that it doesn't, which puts
> the damage from a shot round at an automatic deadly.
>
> If it does, why would anyone use a solid slug, because the damage is only
> 9M, while a sporting rifle does 9S.

I play a solid slug does 9S (8S, 10S) damage, with shot rounds also
causing 9S but using the flechette rules. So firing a shot round against
an unarmored civilian does 9S, but someone with an armor jacket (Impact 3)
will only take 3M.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Anyone home?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 10
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:34:37 GMT
Marty writes

> Here's a question of my own; How do you guys figure the damage on
> shotguns??? Does the damage code stated in the book (9S, etc)
not unless there is an (f) listed after the code eg slivergun.

> incorporate the flechette?? We (sometimes) play that it doesn't, which puts
> the damage from a shot round at an automatic deadly.
>
> If it does, why would anyone use a solid slug, because the damage is only
> 9M, while a sporting rifle does 9S.
by the rules that 9S would become 9D(f) with shot can we say messy,
if the targets not armoured.

>
Mark
Message no. 11
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:44:32 GMT
Gurth writes

> Asher Rosenberg said on 21:28/ 7 Oct 96...
> >
> > I've GM'd 3 differrent system, and have played characters in at least 4
> > more. And in most of these games, (it's seemed to me that) the way the
> > rules are written tend to protect the PC's, more than challenge them.
>
> I've found FASA games in general to be easy on the characters. Sure, if
> the GM wants to kill the characters, they die (use the piano ploy if
> necessary).
They are written to favour survival. I have seen SR PC's killed, the
latest game just got two in 2 sessions, 1 stood in the way of a
minigun the other dropped an IPE gradane and missed in a 2M wide
hallway, bounced about, landed near him and blew out the walls,
nearly brought the building down, the following AVM did! :) with PC
inside.

> Still, the two times I've GMed CP2020, characters ended up
> dead, which hasn't happened in 3 1/2 years of playing SR despite using
> about the same level of violence in both games.
I can believe, by the rules CP2020 is very deadly i'm used to GM's
that make it one role vs death per hit on die and 1 luck point is
'that didn't kill me' and i think its only well armoured PC's that
have too many avoided deaths so far, on the other hand i have seen
someone around 80 pts past the bottom of the damage track!

> One of my "mistakes" was giving the CP2020 bad guy (some drug dealer or
> other) an assault rifle, which is easy enough to live through in SR.
yeah, cause of deadest vampire to date:)

Though i've cut a SR PC clean in 2 (D+D) in a complex action with one
of the things, and the firer was a no threat rating archtype.
>
>
MarK
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:41:18 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 15:44/10 Oct 96...

> > I've found FASA games in general to be easy on the characters. Sure, if
> > the GM wants to kill the characters, they die (use the piano ploy if
> > necessary).
> They are written to favour survival. I have seen SR PC's killed, the
> latest game just got two in 2 sessions, 1 stood in the way of a
> minigun

That usually hurts. If the firer rolls well enough, that is -- remember,
15 rounds = +15 TN... :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's really all the same, and no one's happy and nobody's to blame.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 13
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 16:25:38 +0000
On 10 Oct 96 at 15:44, Mark Steedman wrote:
[snip]
> > Still, the two times I've GMed CP2020, characters ended up
> > dead, which hasn't happened in 3 1/2 years of playing SR despite using
> > about the same level of violence in both games.
> I can believe, by the rules CP2020 is very deadly i'm used to GM's
> that make it one role vs death per hit on die and 1 luck point is
> 'that didn't kill me' and i think its only well armoured PC's that
> have too many avoided deaths so far, on the other hand i have seen
> someone around 80 pts past the bottom of the damage track!
Be the first to shoot and the first to drop behind cover will work. As long as
you can keep the GM surprised, you may have a chance.. Otherwise, let other
characters do the fighting :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 14
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:25:50 GMT
Sascha Pabst writes
> On 10 Oct 96 at 15:44, Mark Steedman wrote:
> [snip]
> > I can believe, by the rules CP2020 is very deadly i'm used to GM's
> > that make it one role vs death per hit on die and 1 luck point is
> > 'that didn't kill me' and i think its only well armoured PC's that
> > have too many avoided deaths so far, on the other hand i have seen
> > someone around 80 pts past the bottom of the damage track!
> Be the first to shoot and the first to drop behind cover will work. As long as
> you can keep the GM surprised, you may have a chance.. Otherwise, let other
> characters do the fighting :-)
>
Not annoying goons with assault rifles works well, and yes i do tend
to dive for cover at speed, both in CP and SR, in SR the 'i'm leaving
thats ridiculous opposition' has exceeded 500m/complex :) amazing
what levitation spells and elementals with movement powers can do :),
and that was mage plus friend.

Mark
Message no. 15
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:04:19 -0700
> > They are written to favour survival. I have seen SR PC's killed, the
> > latest game just got two in 2 sessions, 1 stood in the way of a
> > minigun
>
> That usually hurts. If the firer rolls well enough, that is -- remember,
> 15 rounds = +15 TN... :(

Actually if you use the minigun rules brought up in RBB, uncompensated
recoil from a minigun is doubled.

'Course if you're smart you have Gas Vents, or a gyro mount, there's also
the optional strength recoil rule, or better yet throw the thing on a hard
point (1/2 recoil modifiers and apply reduction to this number).

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Violence in S/R (was Re: new game)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:37:44 +0100
Loki said on 23:04/15 Oct 96...

> > That usually hurts. If the firer rolls well enough, that is -- remember,
> > 15 rounds = +15 TN... :(
>
> Actually if you use the minigun rules brought up in RBB, uncompensated
> recoil from a minigun is doubled.
>
> 'Course if you're smart you have Gas Vents, or a gyro mount, there's also
> the optional strength recoil rule, or better yet throw the thing on a hard
> point (1/2 recoil modifiers and apply reduction to this number).

I believe Tom Dowd stated that a minigun can use a gas vent on each
barrel, so putting six, rating 3 gas vents on a Vindicator cuts all the
recoil to nothing and even leaves you with 3 spare points.

I used to have a house rule that handled this another way (this was in
SR1, where miniguns were somewhat different): to get a certain level of
recoil compensation on a minigun, I ruled you had to put that rating gas
vent on each barrel; so six rating 3 vents gave only 3 points recoil
compensation.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Meanwhile, the next day...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Violence in S/R (was Re: new game), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!