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From:	Kevin Dole kdole@***.vsc.edu
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:24:10 EST5EDT

Message no. 1 I remembered something that I fired once, many years ago.
Grendel used to make something called the P-30. This was a semi-
automatic handgun, chambered for .22WMR, roughly the same size
as a 1911, and using a 30-round magazine. No BS.
Basically, we are talking a hold-out that has the capacity of an
SMG and the size of a light pistol (I consider 9mm, .45ACP and
.357mag to fit the LP catagory). With advanced pre-fragmented
bullet design that is dusted with a fast acting toxin (Did anyone ever
consider that the Viper might use a propitary loading, like the M-121
does?), you could make it hit roughly as hard as heavy load with
regular ammo (say a 240gr .44mag; ~9M).
I just can't see how you can get it higher than 9M damage.

Kevin Dole /:|
kdole@***.vsc.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
"User Error Detected
Recommend rebooting operator.
If problem consists, delete current operator
and procure newest version from vender."

From:	GMPax@*.com GMPax@*.com
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:15:51 EST

Message no. 2 In a message dated 3/11/99 9:26:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, kdole@***.vsc.edu
writes:

> I just can't see how you can get it higher than 9M damage.

Flechette rules. Adds one to the damage level of the round. M becomes S and
so on.

Also Burst Fire, adds +1 power per bullet fired, and +1 staging per 3 bullets
fired.

Sean
GM Pax

From:	Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:21:04 +0000

Message no. 3 In article <199903111425.JAA27029@****.vtc.vsc.edu>, Kevin Dole
<kdole@***.vsc.edu> writes
> Basically, we are talking a hold-out that has the capacity of an
>SMG and the size of a light pistol (I consider 9mm, .45ACP and
>.357mag to fit the LP catagory).

Remember that a "heavy pistol" in Shadowrun is usable without penalty by
a Strength 1, Body 1 individual. These are general-issue weapons...
which pegs them at around 9mm/.40/.45ACP calibre in my opinion.

The Colt Manhunter's got a 16-round magazine: my Glock 21 held 13 rounds
of .45 and many people hated it, considering the grip too bulky. A
Desert Eagle with eight .44 Magnums in a single-stack mag is _way_ too
big for many shooters to hold.

>With advanced pre-fragmented
>bullet design that is dusted with a fast acting toxin (Did anyone ever
>consider that the Viper might use a propitary loading, like the M-121
>does?), you could make it hit roughly as hard as heavy load with
>regular ammo (say a 240gr .44mag; ~9M).

10M at least, but with Strength and Body minimums on its use, IMHO.

SR's damage system doesn't scale properly to real weapons: unless you
consider pistol bullets should be more damaging than 5.56mm ball.

--
Paul J. Adam

From:	Stainless Steel Rat ratinox@******.gweep.net
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	11 Mar 1999 19:49:42 -0500

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* "Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.demon.co.uk> on Thu, 11 Mar 1999
| Remember that a "heavy pistol" in Shadowrun is usable without penalty by
| a Strength 1, Body 1 individual. These are general-issue weapons...
| which pegs them at around 9mm/.40/.45ACP calibre in my opinion.

Ditto.

| The Colt Manhunter's got a 16-round magazine: my Glock 21 held 13 rounds
| of .45 and many people hated it, considering the grip too bulky.

Many say the same thing about the Browning Hi-Power, with a brick of a grip
to hold a 13-round magazine of 9mm. Me? I love the Hi-Power, but I'm
weird that way.

[...]
| SR's damage system doesn't scale properly to real weapons: unless you
| consider pistol bullets should be more damaging than 5.56mm ball.

Believe it or not, 9mm does in fact do more damage than 5.56mm ball. See,
when you get hit by 9mm, the bullet fragments and stops. That means almost
all of its energy gets dumped into you and does lots of tissue damage.
When you get hit with 5.56mm, it punches a rather neat hole right through
you, with very little tissue damage. Unless it hits something vital like
your heart or brain, it is likely that you will live given adequate medical
treatment.
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From:	Wyldwolf otaku@*******.net
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:07:03 -0600

Message no. 5 >Believe it or not, 9mm does in fact do more damage than 5.56mm ball. See,
>when you get hit by 9mm, the bullet fragments and stops. That means almost
>all of its energy gets dumped into you and does lots of tissue damage.
>When you get hit with 5.56mm, it punches a rather neat hole right through
>you, with very little tissue damage. Unless it hits something vital like
>your heart or brain, it is likely that you will live given adequate medical
>treatment.

I thought the 5.56mm (ie M-16) was specficly designed to tumble through the
body - causing serious tissue damage.

--
Wyldwolf
otaku@*******.net

My Shadowrun Site - http://www.cyberramp.net/~wyldwolf
My Linux Site - http://web2.airmail.net/krkelley
My Linux Distrobution - http://www.matrixos.net

From:	Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:24:21 +0000

Message no. 6 In article <m3emmvjzvd.fsf@******.rgo.gweep.net>, Stainless Steel Rat
<ratinox@******.gweep.net> writes
>* "Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.demon.co.uk> on Thu, 11 Mar 1999
>| SR's damage system doesn't scale properly to real weapons: unless you
>| consider pistol bullets should be more damaging than 5.56mm ball.
>
>Believe it or not, 9mm does in fact do more damage than 5.56mm ball. See,
>when you get hit by 9mm, the bullet fragments and stops. That means almost
>all of its energy gets dumped into you and does lots of tissue damage.
>When you get hit with 5.56mm, it punches a rather neat hole right through
>you, with very little tissue damage.

Uh... no. Spitzer bullets - as fired from rifles - are stable in air but
unstable in denser media like water, or people. That means they try to
swap ends and travel base-first: and since they're spinning very fast,
that causes a rather violent yawing and nutating passage through your
body. The wound cavity for a yawing spitzer bullet is much more severe
than for pistol ammunition. (Try to make a gyroscope switch ends and see
what I mean)

5.56mm M193 ball fired from a 1-in-12 twist barrel yaws early and
violently, usually breaking at the cannelure and fragmenting. This gave
rise to some of the wilder stories about its lethality.

The SS109 / M855 ball currently in use also yaws extremely early, due to
its lead base and steel tip. Again, this causes a severe wound profile.

By comparison, 9mm ball drills a 9mm hole. No yaw, no serious effects,
nothing fancy.

Both arguments assume FMJ ammunition: but the rifle ammunition has much
higher energy density with which to penetrate armour and then begin
killing you than any 9mm.

--
Paul J. Adam

From:	Schizi@*.com Schizi@*.com
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:24:14 EST

Message no. 7 In a message dated 3/11/99 5:07:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, otaku@*******.net
writes:

> I thought the 5.56mm (ie M-16) was specficly designed to tumble through the
> body - causing serious tissue damage.

yeah, that is why they selected it, but that was at turn rates of 1 in 12 or
14. They then figured out that it was wildly inaccurate (though they were
going for spray and pray anyway, I don't see where either accuracy or one shot
stops counts) and upped the twist to 1in7" then to find that it was turning
them a little fast and they were breaking up. This all depends on loads for
the rounds of course (they have changed a few times since introduction)

.223 was selected as a wounder (wounded require more attention than dead)
and also because it is lighter to carry the same amount of rounds, comapred to
a heavier bullet.

From:	Stainless Steel Rat ratinox@******.gweep.net
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	11 Mar 1999 20:44:19 -0500

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* Wyldwolf <otaku@*******.net> on Thu, 11 Mar 1999
| I thought the 5.56mm (ie M-16) was specficly designed to tumble through the
| body - causing serious tissue damage.

The old .223 round for the original M-16 did that through a combination of
off-center axis and weird barrel twist.

5.56mm NATO ball, used by NATO and the M-16A2, does not tumble.
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From:	Starrngr@*.com Starrngr@*.com
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:41:08 EST

Message no. 9 In a message dated 3/11/99 5:07:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, otaku@*******.net
writes:

>
> I thought the 5.56 mm (i.e. M-16) was specifically designed to tumble
through the
> body - causing serious tissue damage.
>

Nope. One of the interesting things about the selection of the 5.56N round by
the US military is the fact that its NOT always a one shot kill weapon.

You see, in the view of the military, a wound is BETTER than an outright kill.
A wounded solder exerts a rearward pull on resources, as his buddies have to
get him out of the firefight and back to an aid station. Then there is the
additional resources that must be used to treat the solder and transport him
someplace safe to recover from his injuries.

A dead solder exerts none of this resource redirection. A good faith effort
to recover the body and ship it home, yes. But nowhere near the level of
resources needed to treat a wounded solder.

From:	GMPax@*.com GMPax@*.com
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:58:29 EST

Message no. 10 In a message dated 3/11/99 8:07:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, otaku@*******.net
writes:

> I thought the 5.56mm (ie M-16) was specficly designed to tumble through the
> body - causing serious tissue damage.

The M-16's 5.56mm NATO cannot be considered a "ball" IMO, it's not a blunt
thing. <g> OFC, I may be BADLY misremembering the definitions ... but anyway
... :-)

Sean
GM Pax

From:	Stainless Steel Rat ratinox@******.gweep.net
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	11 Mar 1999 21:11:24 -0500

Message no. 11 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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* "Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.demon.co.uk> on Thu, 11 Mar 1999
| By comparison, 9mm ball drills a 9mm hole. No yaw, no serious effects,
| nothing fancy.

You are comparing apples and eggs. Make a 9mm 'tumbler' (assuming it is
feasable in the first place, which I am not sure is) and you will get
different results. Actually, a more useful comparison would be between
M193 ball and frangible 9mm.

A non-tumbling rifle round, such as 5.56mm NATO ball, does indeed do less
damage than 9mm Parabellum because, as I said, it tends to punch a clean
hole all the way through.
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From:	Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:53:06 +0200

Message no. 12 -----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Dole <kdole@***.vsc.edu>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 11 March 1999 04:30
Subject: Viper as a heavy pistol

>I remembered something that I fired once, many years ago.
>Grendel used to make something called the P-30. This was a semi-
>automatic handgun, chambered for .22WMR, roughly the same size
>as a 1911, and using a 30-round magazine. No BS.
>Basically, we are talking a hold-out that has the capacity of an
>SMG and the size of a light pistol (I consider 9mm, .45ACP and
.>357mag to fit the LP catagory). With advanced pre-fragmented
>bullet design that is dusted with a fast acting toxin (Did anyone
ever
>consider that the Viper might use a propitary loading, like the M-121
>does?), you could make it hit roughly as hard as heavy load with
>regular ammo (say a 240gr .44mag; ~9M).
>I just can't see how you can get it higher than 9M damage.

I think that .45 should fall under HP, as it appears to be in the same
class calibre wise as a .44
I realise that the Magnum round is more powerful, but you dont have to
chase those through your .44 do you?
I would say that 9mm is pretty much the top end of the LP range. Has
FASA said anything about calibres?

Whats a "propitary loading" ?

On an unrelated and OT note , would an Outlook user who knows his way
around this piece of drek kindly explain where the hell my arow
thingies have gone? Usually when I reply they are inserted, but no
luck today

-- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>

Theres nothing like a netfight
Everything is True
Nothing is Forbidden

From:	GMPax@*.com GMPax@*.com
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:09:49 EST

Message no. 13 In a message dated 3/12/99 1:07:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
gyro@********.co.za writes:

> Whats a "propitary loading" ?

I think he meant "proprietary" ... as in, like the Barret 121, the gun might
have unique, special ammunition. :-)

Sean
GM Pax

From:	Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:53:06 +0200

Message no. 14 -----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Dole <kdole@***.vsc.edu>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 11 March 1999 04:30
Subject: Viper as a heavy pistol

>I remembered something that I fired once, many years ago.
>Grendel used to make something called the P-30. This was a semi-
>automatic handgun, chambered for .22WMR, roughly the same size
>as a 1911, and using a 30-round magazine. No BS.
>Basically, we are talking a hold-out that has the capacity of an
>SMG and the size of a light pistol (I consider 9mm, .45ACP and
.>357mag to fit the LP catagory). With advanced pre-fragmented
>bullet design that is dusted with a fast acting toxin (Did anyone
ever
>consider that the Viper might use a propitary loading, like the M-121
>does?), you could make it hit roughly as hard as heavy load with
>regular ammo (say a 240gr .44mag; ~9M).
>I just can't see how you can get it higher than 9M damage.

I think that .45 should fall under HP, as it appears to be in the same
class calibre wise as a .44
I realise that the Magnum round is more powerful, but you dont have to
chase those through your .44 do you?
I would say that 9mm is pretty much the top end of the LP range. Has
FASA said anything about calibres?

Whats a "propitary loading" ?

On an unrelated and OT note , would an Outlook user who knows his way
around this piece of drek kindly explain where the hell my arow
thingies have gone? Usually when I reply they are inserted, but no
luck today

-- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>

Theres nothing like a netfight
Everything is True
Nothing is Forbidden

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:31:13 +0100

Message no. 15 According to GMPax@***.com, at 13:15 on 11 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> Also Burst Fire, adds +1 power per bullet fired, and +1 staging per 3 bullets
> fired.

+1 _Damage_Level_ per 3 bullets fired. Staging is the number of successes
needed to in- or decrease the Damage Level by one; that means that in SRII
and SR3, Staging is always 2.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	GMPax@*.com GMPax@*.com
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:58:31 EST

Message no. 16 In a message dated 3/12/99 5:46:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> +1 _Damage_Level_ per 3 bullets fired. Staging is the number of successes
> needed to in- or decrease the Damage Level by one; that means that in SRII
> and SR3, Staging is always 2.

Pardon. By "+1 staging+ I mean just that: "stage the damage up one level"
...
:-)

Difference in particular "SR Gaming Slang" between your campaign and mine,
that's all.

Sean
GM Pax

From:	Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:11:12 +0000

Message no. 17 In article <m34snrihir.fsf@******.rgo.gweep.net>, Stainless Steel Rat
<ratinox@******.gweep.net> writes
>Hash: SHA1
>* "Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.demon.co.uk> on Thu, 11 Mar 1999
>| By comparison, 9mm ball drills a 9mm hole. No yaw, no serious effects,
>| nothing fancy.
>
>You are comparing apples and eggs. Make a 9mm 'tumbler' (assuming it is
>feasable in the first place, which I am not sure is)

The Tzniitochmash MA assault rifle, AS suppressed version and VSS
suppressed sniper rifle all fire a 9mm spitzer bullet: 250 grains at
~300 metres a second.

>and you will get
>different results. Actually, a more useful comparison would be between
>M193 ball and frangible 9mm.

Frangible 9mm? Don't even go there... opinions are at best divided on
prefragmented ammunition's utility. The lack of penetration is a nasty
liability in real-world situations.

>A non-tumbling rifle round, such as 5.56mm NATO ball, does indeed do less
>damage than 9mm Parabellum because, as I said, it tends to punch a clean
>hole all the way through.

Rat, I suggest you check the ballistics of SS109 / M855 ball (the
current NATO standard) before making such confident statements. Terminal
ballistics are almost identical as for the M193: the bullet yaws within
10cm of entering tbe body and breaks at the cannelure, causing a large
permanent cavity and considerable secondary injury. (International
Defence Review 1/1989, "Wounding Patterns of Military Rifle Bullets",
page 59 et seq.)

"

>

--
Paul J. Adam

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:27:49 +0100

Message no. 18 According to GMPax@***.com, at 11:58 on 12 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> > +1 _Damage_Level_ per 3 bullets fired. Staging is the number of successes
> > needed to in- or decrease the Damage Level by one; that means that in SRII
> > and SR3, Staging is always 2.
>
> Pardon. By "+1 staging+ I mean just that: "stage the damage up one
level" ...
> :-)

That's still different than "+1 Staging," especially for those (like me)
who used to play SR1 way back when.

> Difference in particular "SR Gaming Slang" between your campaign and mine,
> that's all.

I don't think so... However, looking at your recent efforts I won't ley
myself be drawn into a debate over this :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	GMPax@*.com GMPax@*.com
Subject:	Viper as a heavy pistol
Date:	Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:53:54 EST

Message no. 19 In a message dated 3/13/99 5:28:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> That's still different than "+1 Staging," especially for those (like me)
> who used to play SR1 way back when.
>
> > Difference in particular "SR Gaming Slang" between your campaign and
mine,
> > that's all.
>
> I don't think so... However, looking at your recent efforts I won't ley
> myself be drawn into a debate over this :)

OK. I hadn't played much SR1 before SR2 came out, which is why the conflict
in terms never occurred to me. Now that I know, I'll _try_ to remember NOT to
slip into that terminology. :-) Hopefully appending "level" will do, i.e.
"+1
staging level" ...

Sean
GM Pax

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