Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Forgotten Horror <phinar@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Vipers and head shots
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 03:04:21 EDT
> On the other hand I _have_ had problems with the Ares Viper Slivergun and
> recurring head-shots with said weapon.

Why? Why does this always pop up, especially after the delights of
Smartlink II are introduced? If you read the rules, it clearly states
that a called shot can target a specific area only on a target vehicle
sized or larger. What are these characters shooting at, the Sta-Puft
Marshmallow Man?

(I had this problem once. It ended in a rather disappointed shuffling
of papers and examination of the rules.)

If you *can* make a called head shot, can you imagine what an SMG
would do to a person? That's a serious one shot, one kill campaign.
And I can't imagine you've got too many characters live past their
teen years. When my players were pulling that drek, they almost lost
it on a couple occassions, specifically for that reason. (OK, you take
a 3-round burst to the head. He's got 6 successes, lemme know if you
live for the next burst.)

It makes the game unplayable in a hurry.


<G>
(phinar@******.net)
Message no. 2
From: "Lindblom Fredrik, Training" <fredrik.lindblom@*******.TELIA.SE>
Subject: Re: Vipers and head shots
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 11:19:00 -0700
>> On the other hand I _have_ had problems with the Ares Viper Slivergun and
>> recurring head-shots with said weapon.
>
>Why? Why does this always pop up, especially after the delights of
>Smartlink II are introduced? If you read the rules, it clearly states
>that a called shot can target a specific area only on a target vehicle
>sized or larger. What are these characters shooting at, the Sta-Puft
>Marshmallow Man?

Ahh...once again it seems fiction has overwhelmed the rules. I'm sorry. I
really should read the rules better.

Now, this was quite a while ago, but when I read 2XS, I think Mr Montgomery
(or whatever his name was) talked a lot about head shots, and since I, as a
gamemaster, often think more about what worked well in the novels than what
works according to the rules, I guess that's where it comes from.

Now I'll teach those players a couple of things...

Thanks.

MxM
Message no. 3
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Vipers and head shots
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 21:13:29 +0930
Forgotten Horror wrote:
>
> > On the other hand I _have_ had problems with the Ares Viper Slivergun and
> > recurring head-shots with said weapon.
>
> Why? Why does this always pop up, especially after the delights of
> Smartlink II are introduced? If you read the rules, it clearly states
> that a called shot can target a specific area only on a target vehicle
> sized or larger. What are these characters shooting at, the Sta-Puft
> Marshmallow Man?
>

Uh?? SRII, p92: "By calling a shot, the character is aiming at a vulnerable
portion of a target, such as the head of a person, the tires or windows of
a vehicle, and so on."

Later on: "A specific sub-target of something vehicle-sized or larger can
be hit, such as the windows or tires on a vehicle. Normal damage rules
apply (as opposed to the damage code increase), but are used against the
specific part of the vehicle". (The stuff in the brackets is mine).

So yeah, you can do a called shot to the head. Does it instakill? No... it
only increases the damage code by one level, and gives you a +4 to the TN.
It also doesn't, say, decrease the armour protection.

As a house rule, I also require that the character spends a turn aiming
just to get the call shot (this doesn't decrease the TN by 1). About the
only time I see called shots these days is when the PCs are snipering.

> (I had this problem once. It ended in a rather disappointed shuffling
> of papers and examination of the rules.)
>
> If you *can* make a called head shot, can you imagine what an SMG
> would do to a person? That's a serious one shot, one kill campaign.
> And I can't imagine you've got too many characters live past their
> teen years. When my players were pulling that drek, they almost lost
> it on a couple occassions, specifically for that reason. (OK, you take
> a 3-round burst to the head. He's got 6 successes, lemme know if you
> live for the next burst.)

> It makes the game unplayable in a hurry.

My method of dealing with rule abusers is that I abuse the rules back at
them, as a method of telling them to stop. Assuming they don't heed my
first warning, of course. Eventually they either change their ways or get
so sick of it they leave. Or I kick them out.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 4
From: Tim Serpas <wretch@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Vipers and head shots
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 13:25:42 -0500
On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Uh?? SRII, p92: "By calling a shot, the character is aiming at a vulnerable
> portion of a target, such as the head of a person, the tires or windows of
> a vehicle, and so on."
>
> Later on: "A specific sub-target of something vehicle-sized or larger can
> be hit, such as the windows or tires on a vehicle. Normal damage rules
> apply (as opposed to the damage code increase), but are used against the
> specific part of the vehicle". (The stuff in the brackets is mine).

We have the additional rule that called shots can only be single shots. I
suppose FA or burst could hit a window, but we rule that those would be
too unstable to hit a head or arm or tire. Of course a Defiance T-250
to the head still sucks!

Tim Serpas :Geek Code v.2.1: GS d- H++>+++ s:- !g p1 auVW a- w+ v+ C+
BS Physics : U P? !L !3 E---- N++ K++ W M- !V -po+ Y+>++ t+ !5 j+>$
wretch@**.com: R+ G'' tv+>! b+>++ D+ B-- e++>-- u+ h- f+>* r++ n+ y+
Message no. 5
From: cocheese <ZKLJ1@****.EAST-TENN-ST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vipers and head shots
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 14:43:19 EDT
It's not that hard to do a called shot anyway.
My street sam has optical mag. 3 eyes (makes everything short range); smartlink
(not the lvl 2) for a -2; all weapons have recoil compensation (it's never an
issue with me, I never go full auto) so no effect there; I have all the necessa
ry vision enhancements (thermo, flare comp.) with ultrasound and low-light
goggles so no modifiers on vision and I usually stop all movement.
So I have a base TN of 4, add 4 to 8, subtract 2 to make it a 6, assuming no mo
vement on either parties and no vison problems it's easy for me to make a head
shot. (Firearms 6, combat pool 7). I could go burst fire but that's an addito
nal 3 to the TN and like I said earlier, no recoil problem.

I could see how it unbalances the game but that's life, shadowrunners are pros,
not the average joe on the street with a gun. They are expected to be LETHAL
and tough when the drek hits the fan.

CoCheese
Message no. 6
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Vipers and head shots
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:10:16 BST
Wel,, seeing as we're doinghead-shoits again, I'll just add my .02 Y;

NO NO NO, don;t let them use optical sights wiothout a simple action,
no way should you be able to instantyl acquire and geek a guy with
the build in eye-ware.

IO had a player for months who used these beatuies and was quite suprised
when he didn't get 2's for every firearms TNo, he had smart and optical 3,
what did he have to worry about?

Always cover and smoke, and preferably injury modifiers (his not yours!)
to ensure your enemy can;t hit you.

Phil (Renegade
Message no. 7
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vipers and head shots
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 13:46:38 -0400
On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, cocheese wrote:

> It's not that hard to do a called shot anyway.
> My street sam has optical mag. 3 eyes (makes everything short range); smartlink
> (not the lvl 2) for a -2; all weapons have recoil compensation (it's never an
> issue with me, I never go full auto) so no effect there; I have all the necessa
> ry vision enhancements (thermo, flare comp.) with ultrasound and low-light
> goggles so no modifiers on vision and I usually stop all movement.

So *how* exactly are you getting the benefits from OpMag III
whilst using goggles? It's things like this that make stuff like called
shots get out of hand. There are times when they are useful, even
necessary, but they are almost never easy.
As an extra alternative for called shots, I give the player the
choice of one of three options. They can either a) up the damage code as
per the standard rules, b) leave the damage code the same and bypass
armor, or c) leave the damage code and armor unchanged and go for a
special game effect. It works well.

Marc
Message no. 8
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vipers and head shots
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 14:05:32 -0400
On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, P Ward wrote:

> NO NO NO, don;t let them use optical sights wiothout a simple action,
> no way should you be able to instantyl acquire and geek a guy with
> the build in eye-ware.

Agreed. The way I run this is that Mag I can acquire without an
action, Mag II can acquire after 1 simple action spent aiming, and Mag
III can acquire after 2 simple actions spent aiming. This reflects the
fact that at larger distances, the cross-hair of your smartgun link will
probably spend a good deal of it's time out of your field of view (which
has become small) Note also that this kind of "aiming" does not lower the
target number to hit, although you can continue to aim for a reduction in
target number after you have acquired the target.
This only comes into play with cyber-magnification systems used
in conjunction with smartgun links, where it is easy for the gun to be
pointed somewhere other than where you are looking. With scopes, your
gun is always pointed roughly where you are looking, so the smaller field of
view is not as important.

> IO had a player for months who used these beatuies and was quite suprised
> when he didn't get 2's for every firearms TNo, he had smart and optical 3,
> what did he have to worry about?
>
> Always cover and smoke, and preferably injury modifiers (his not yours!)
> to ensure your enemy can;t hit you.

Yes. Oh, yes. Many players are surprised by the target number
mods in my game. I take them very seriously, and the average "fire
fight" target number is around 10, though often as high as 15. This is
what makes the difference between a realistic combat in which lots of
rounds are sprayed with little effect and the cinematic "kill all the bad
guys before they get to move regardless of the conditions" romp. It also
makes run-of-the-mill NPC's *much* more potent.

Marc
Message no. 9
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Vipers and head shots
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 21:42:37 GMT
Marc A Renouf wrote...
> As an extra alternative for called shots, I give the player the
> choice of one of three options. They can either a) up the damage code as
> per the standard rules, b) leave the damage code the same and bypass
> armor, or c) leave the damage code and armor unchanged and go for a
> special game effect. It works well.

I use a mix of the following...

Head shots generally, though not always (helmets? other neat cheats? GM
discretion) bypass armour, and definitely up damage a level. They are
also strongly discouraged: unless I think it was an emergency an NPC will
do the same to you. My players respond well to persuasion :-)

Other called shots tend to be to limbs (reduced chance of killing someone
on a Deadly), or to weapons (+4 plus half Concealability).

And yes, the "special game effect" is a wondrous lucky dip... ;-)

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 10
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Vipers and head shots
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 08:40:41 BST
Marc :-

> Yes. Oh, yes. Many players are surprised by the target number
> mods in my game. I take them very seriously, and the average "fire
> fight" target number is around 10, though often as high as 15.

Wow, I thought I could pretty over-happy with the TNo mods, but a 10 on
average is better than I usually manage. 15 is only for last ditch fights
when the guys on 8 physical and 8 mental are rushed back to the front-line.

I have a feeling it's allgetting a bit silly, when the players count
their 6's, then tell me I have X successes, where X is the no of 6's,
_before_ I've told them what the TNo is...

Phil (Renegade)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Vipers and head shots, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!