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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Matthew Ledgerwood <ledgermw@****.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Vision Magnification. . .
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 15:15:49 NZS
>We (me and my players) have always found the idea of using vision mag
>in combat completely ludicrous. There is no way that anybody can
>hold a gun steady enough to shoot a target at long range as well as
>they can at short range.
>As a house rule, we do not allow the use of vision mag to reduce
>range penalties unless the shooter is braced/prone/aiming.

If they were just using the gun I'd agree, but if someone is smart linked
then I think it would help. Perhaps even if the were using a laser sight.

Perhaps?

Cheers,
Matthew.
Message no. 2
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vision Magnification. . .
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 11:32:05 CDT
> If they were just using the gun I'd agree, but if someone is smart linked
> then I think it would help. Perhaps even if the were using a laser sight.

I agree with the smartlink idea, but the laser sight simply wouldn't
account for bullet drop. And since we are dealing with long range, bullet
drop is important. (you would be surprised how much a bullet actually does
drop.)

On a further note, I would kinda like to see target #'s go up by ones
beyond short range under vision mag anyways, just to display _some_ sort of
modifier. And if you don't want to alter the rules, (I may not bother myself
merely for simplicity), then just add target mods for circumstances such as
gusting wind. At short range it isn't a problem, but at long range...

-- CrossFire --
Message no. 3
From: Chris Yang <cyang@*****.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Vision Magnification. . .
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 13:39:51 -0700
On Tue, 29 Jun 1993, Matthew Ledgerwood wrote:

> >We (me and my players) have always found the idea of using vision mag
> >in combat completely ludicrous. There is no way that anybody can
> >hold a gun steady enough to shoot a target at long range as well as
> >they can at short range.
> >As a house rule, we do not allow the use of vision mag to reduce
> >range penalties unless the shooter is braced/prone/aiming.
>
> If they were just using the gun I'd agree, but if someone is smart linked
> then I think it would help. Perhaps even if the were using a laser sight.
>

I don't think smartlinking would help any in this situation. Modern
technology can pretty much emulate any aspect of smartlinking a gun
(as I understand the definition of smartlinking).

A red dot scope (should be familiar to all of you paintball fanatics out
there) comes close to the 'dot' that's supposed to appear in your eye.
Use a laser if you want, same effect.

Electronic triggers on some ISU guns are the closest we have come to
'telling' a gun to shoot by thought. Very little chance of 'jerking'
the trigger and destroying sight picture.

The limiting factor in distance shooting is not the stuff ON the gun,
it's the shooters ability to hold the gun steady. Using the SRII rules,
you can take a non-smartchipped gun with a mag3 scope and hit targets
just as easily at 300 yards (sporting rifle in this example) as at 20 yards.
Unless braced, the shooter should be unable to make this shot, period.

Just some more of my own personal ranting. =)


----------------------------------------------------------------------
"He used a .32? Let's call | "Your mom called;
it assault with intent to | She said you suck."
annoy" | -Peter Madden
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Yang cyang@*****.ubc.ca
(If my boss knew, she'd probably have a heart attack.)
Message no. 4
From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vision Magnification. . .
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 16:28:40 -0400
| I don't think smartlinking would help any in this situation. Modern
| technology can pretty much emulate any aspect of smartlinking a gun
| (as I understand the definition of smartlinking).

First edition smartgun links are clearly not simply little red
targeting dots; they are an intricate brain linkage interface that
essentially removes the trigger entirely. This is because they let you
walk automatic fire past people you like, *not* firing on them -- this
is far better response than your trigger finger muscles can get.

I've always assumed that they were more or less a system that read
out from your brain just what you wanted to shoot, and basically fired
the gun appropriately when it was pointing the right way.

- cks
Message no. 5
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vision Magnification. . .
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1993 19:46:41 EDT
>>>>> "Chris" == Chris Siebenmann
<cks@********.utcs.toronto.edu> writes:

Chris> First edition smartgun links are clearly not simply little red
Chris> targeting dots; they are an intricate brain linkage interface that
Chris> essentially removes the trigger entirely. This is because they let you
Chris> walk automatic fire past people you like, *not* firing on them -- this
Chris> is far better response than your trigger finger muscles can get.

Second edition as well. Read the stray shots rule: smartlinked weapons do
not have any stray shots.

--Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
PGP Public Key Block available upon request Ask about rat-pgp.el
||||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||||
I'd rather be a pig than a fascist. --Porco Roso (The Crimson Pig)
Message no. 6
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Vision Magnification
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:55:23 -0500
Shouldn't Vision Magnification (whether optical, electronic, or magical) be
useful for something besides being a built-in target scope? I'd think it
could also be used by detectives in searching for clues, or by engineers and
mechanics dealing with tiny parts, but there's no game mechanic for that.

So here's what I'm thinking: Each level of VM give a cumulative -1 TN
modifier for Perception Tests when looking for small clues (shell casings,
matchbooks, whatever), or for B/R Tests when working with small parts
(soldering parts to a circuit board, et cetera). So VM-3 would offer a -3
TN modifier in those cases.

Alternately, each level could add a die and not alter the TN at all.

Which would you recommend, or would you go a different route entirely?

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 7
From: Josh Munn barnack2@*****.com
Subject: Vision Magnification
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:24:30 -0700 (PDT)
--- Patrick Goodman <remo@***.net> wrote:
> Shouldn't Vision Magnification (whether optical, electronic, or
> magical) be
> useful for something besides being a built-in target scope? I'd
> think it
> could also be used by detectives in searching for clues, or by
> engineers and
> mechanics dealing with tiny parts, but there's no game mechanic for
> that.
>
> So here's what I'm thinking: Each level of VM give a cumulative -1
> TN
> modifier for Perception Tests when looking for small clues (shell
> casings,
> matchbooks, whatever), or for B/R Tests when working with small parts
> (soldering parts to a circuit board, et cetera). So VM-3 would offer
> a -3
> TN modifier in those cases.
>
> Alternately, each level could add a die and not alter the TN at all.
>
> Which would you recommend, or would you go a different route
> entirely?
>
Have you ever tried to look at the floor using a telescope? Try it
some time. It doesn't work very well. The image is way to blury
because a telescope (which is what vision magnification is) is focused
for see things that are at a large distance. Same goes for a
micro-scope except in reverse, you can see things up close really well
but try using it to look at mars.
==
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Message no. 8
From: Ulrich Haupt SANDMAN@****.uni-oldenburg.de
Subject: Vision Magnification
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:41:34 +0200
Patrick Goodman wrote:

> Shouldn't Vision Magnification (whether optical, electronic, or magical) be
> useful for something besides being a built-in target scope? I'd think it
> could also be used by detectives in searching for clues, or by engineers and
> mechanics dealing with tiny parts, but there's no game mechanic for that.
>

I think this is included in electronic shops. You often need some kind of tools
and this is covered with shops in Shadowrun. Of course you can give TN
advantages if a player has the idea to examine an important object closely.

Sandman

p.s.: I'm using a different mail program so if anything isn't within ShadowRN
rules don't kill me. Next week everything will be o.k.. I hope I disabled HMTL.
Message no. 9
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Vision Magnification
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:16:01 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/1999 10:56:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
remo@***.net writes:

> Shouldn't Vision Magnification (whether optical, electronic, or magical) be
> useful for something besides being a built-in target scope? I'd think it
> could also be used by detectives in searching for clues, or by engineers
and
> mechanics dealing with tiny parts, but there's no game mechanic for that.
>
> So here's what I'm thinking: Each level of VM give a cumulative -1 TN
> modifier for Perception Tests when looking for small clues (shell casings,
> matchbooks, whatever), or for B/R Tests when working with small parts
> (soldering parts to a circuit board, et cetera). So VM-3 would offer a -3
> TN modifier in those cases.

IMO, Magnification of the sort already in existence wouldn't do much at all
towards finding small items and such. That is because, to me at least, you
would have to be able to have spotted something before you could "zoom in" on
the something in question. Additionally, I've noticed that magnification
devices (such as binoculars) do NOT help worth squat when trying to look
at/for tiny things (like earring backs in carpets). I *think* this is
because of the focal length/focus of the magnifying item in question.

> Alternately, each level could add a die and not alter the TN at all.
>
> Which would you recommend, or would you go a different route entirely?

I would suggest going a different route. There was once an Adept ability
that we had called "Acuity", which works in much the same way that
"Perceptive" (the Edge) works now. It had to be bought per sense in question
(the 5 basic as we included any modified form of a sense to be included with
the originating sense (ie thermal vision to visual acuity) and Astral
Perception).

As for seeing "small items" or "small details" I would say that would
be
something else along the lines of "Electronic Microscopia" or something
equally technical sounding and totally fictionish...

-K
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: vision magnification
Date: Sun Jul 22 07:05:00 2001
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Does vision magnification count the same as a scope of the same level? For
example, does optical magnificaton level III give the same bonuses with a gun
as a Scope level III? My friends were debating this as how a scope is hooked
up and in line with the barrel as your eyes are not hooked up to the gun, but
can't you just aim with it?

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Does vision magnification
count the same as a scope of the same level? &nbsp;For
<BR>example, does optical magnificaton level III give the same bonuses with a gun
<BR>as a Scope level III? &nbsp;My friends were debating this as how a scope is
hooked
<BR>up and in line with the barrel as your eyes are not hooked up to the gun, but
<BR>can't you just aim with it?</FONT></HTML>

--part1_109.2eba34c.288c0ef9_boundary--
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: vision magnification
Date: Sun Jul 22 11:15:01 2001
LordNagaraja@***.com writes:

> Does vision magnification count the same as a scope of the same level?
> For example, does optical magnificaton level III give the same bonuses with
> a gun as a Scope level III? My friends were debating this as how a scope
> is hooked up and in line with the barrel as your eyes are not hooked up to
> the gun, but can't you just aim with it?

As far as I am aware, the eye based vision magnification systems provide the
same range reducing bonus as scope based systems. OTOH, I have also
occasionally thought about the same issue you bring up. It seems to me that
with a scope, the thing is sighted in for the weapon, but with your eyes,
seeing your target up close may not provide such a big benefit, as you still
have to coordinate your weapon aim to actually hit the target.

I have seen house rules that disallow eye based vision mag unless the user
has some other sighting mechanism (such as a laser sight or smartlink) to
gauge where there weapon is pointed relative to their zoomed in target. I
can't recall off the top of my head what sort of bonuses these house rules
provided.

I've also seen house rules that straight out disallow eye based vision mag
bonuses in combat ... Apparently, target shooting with a pair of binoculars
strapped to your head is actually more difficult than doing so without. Not
having been target shooting I wouldn't know, but the argument does seem to
make some degree of sense :-).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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