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Message no. 1
From: foreshadow@****.com (Mathew T Schaffer)
Subject: Re: VR2.0-Otaku (Yes it's back again, And now it's a new question)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 17:56:56 PST
On Sun, 9 Jun 1996 06:12:04 -0500 (CDT) "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz"
<bolthy@**.com> writes:
>> 2) As Otaku character starts with 5000Y. Most characters don't
>start
>> with any Karma. How are they supposed to get complex forms during
>> character generation!?!?! Or are they just supposed to be weak as a
>newborn kitten until they've ran about 30 times?!?!
>>
>
>"Programming Days", p. 145. He can start out with however many he can
>
>get started on in that amount of time... No karma required.

OK, thanx. This leads me to another question though. Is it just me, or
does the time it takes to make a Complex Form incredably long?

Ex. The same Otaku wants a 6D attack Complex Form (not too uncommon for
regular deckers). The size would be 180MP (6*6*5). The base
programming time would be 360 days (180*2, damn long if ya ask me).
Minus the Otaku task bonus ([6 + 4]/4 (up) = 3) is 356 days (260 - 4).
That's a whole year for one program. Most of my players have never made
it to the next year of the campaign. (another thing, even if the Otaku
had a Comp6 which is as high as a starting player can go, he'd only have
21 days to program Forms.

Ex. The Otaku also wants a 6 Sleaze (almost a dire neccecity for a
decker, better if higher). The size is 108MP (6*6*3). The base time is
216 days, minus the task bonus, 212 day. Again, more than half a year.
And, also much more than 21 days.

-Does anyone else see these problems?
P.S. The same applies to regular decker programs custom programed. I
know people that can crank out programs (and good hacking programs too)
in real life, in 14 days!
P.P.S. Also, I'd expect that scientists use the same methods as deckers
(the ASIST programming interface, does that mean in a life times work
they can only make less than about 35 programs!?!?! Again, some
programmers in real life using "wearisome" programming code end up
makeing 200+ programs in a carreer.
Message no. 2
From: Technomancer <arvanit@***.uch.gr>
Subject: Re: VR2.0-Otaku (Yes it's back again, And now it's a new question)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 01:42:55 +0300 (EET DST)
On Mon, 10 Jun 1996, Mathew T Schaffer wrote:

> OK, thanx. This leads me to another question though. Is it just me, or
> does the time it takes to make a Complex Form incredably long?

Yep, they do.

> Ex. The same Otaku wants a 6D attack Complex Form (not too uncommon for
> regular deckers). The size would be 180MP (6*6*5). The base
> programming time would be 360 days (180*2, damn long if ya ask me).
> Minus the Otaku task bonus ([6 + 4]/4 (up) = 3) is 356 days (260 - 4).
Nope, it's not minus, it's division by, that is 360/30. Long, but
shorter than 356.
And this is a long time, so I generaly agree with you.

*********************************************************************
* Technomancer * Modesty is one of my countless virtues *
* arvanit@***.uch.gr *
* http://www.csd.uch.gr/~arvanit/ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 3
From: mike.paff@*****.com
Subject: Re: VR2.0-Otaku (Yes it's back again, And now it's a new question)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 15:53:02 -0700
> From: foreshadow@****.com (Mathew T Schaffer)
>
> OK, thanx. This leads me to another question though. Is it just me, or
> does the time it takes to make a Complex Form incredably long?
>
> Ex. The same Otaku wants a 6D attack Complex Form (not too uncommon for
> regular deckers). The size would be 180MP (6*6*5). The base
> programming time would be 360 days (180*2, damn long if ya ask me).
> Minus the Otaku task bonus ([6 + 4]/4 (up) = 3) is 356 days (260 - 4).
> That's a whole year for one program. Most of my players have never made
> it to the next year of the campaign. (another thing, even if the Otaku
> had a Comp6 which is as high as a starting player can go, he'd only have
> 21 days to program Forms.
>
I don't have my copy of VR 2.0 handy, but I seem to remember task bonuses
working differently. I thought a task bonus was used to indicate that
your work was more efficient, i.e. a task bonus of 2 would mean that you
did 3 (2 + 1) days of work in one day. If this is correct, your Otaku would
need a base 72 days (360 / (4 + 1)) for the 6D attack form.

> Ex. The Otaku also wants a 6 Sleaze (almost a dire neccecity for a
> decker, better if higher). The size is 108MP (6*6*3). The base time is
> 216 days, minus the task bonus, 212 day. Again, more than half a year.
> And, also much more than 21 days.
>
This would work out as 43.2 days (216 / (4 + 1)).

Mike Paff
Message no. 4
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: VR2.0-Otaku (Yes it's back again, And now it's a new question)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:01:45 -0500 (CDT)
On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Technomancer wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Jun 1996, Mathew T Schaffer wrote:
>
> > OK, thanx. This leads me to another question though. Is it just me, or
> > does the time it takes to make a Complex Form incredably long?
>
> Yep, they do.
>
> > Ex. The same Otaku wants a 6D attack Complex Form (not too uncommon for
> > regular deckers). The size would be 180MP (6*6*5). The base
> > programming time would be 360 days (180*2, damn long if ya ask me).
> > Minus the Otaku task bonus ([6 + 4]/4 (up) = 3) is 356 days (260 - 4).
> Nope, it's not minus, it's division by, that is 360/30. Long, but
> shorter than 356.
> And this is a long time, so I generaly agree with you.
>

Actually, it would be divided by 4... since if his bonus is +3, that
means he's getting three additional days worth of work in one day, making
it 4 days equivalent in just one day....


|\ /\ |\ | |\
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http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 5
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: VR2.0-Otaku (Yes it's back again, And now it's a new question)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:59:28 -0500 (CDT)
On Mon, 10 Jun 1996, Mathew T Schaffer wrote:

> On Sun, 9 Jun 1996 06:12:04 -0500 (CDT) "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz"
> <bolthy@**.com> writes:
> >> 2) As Otaku character starts with 5000Y. Most characters don't
> >start
> >> with any Karma. How are they supposed to get complex forms during
> >> character generation!?!?! Or are they just supposed to be weak as a
> >newborn kitten until they've ran about 30 times?!?!
> >>
> >
> >"Programming Days", p. 145. He can start out with however many he can
> >
> >get started on in that amount of time... No karma required.
>
> OK, thanx. This leads me to another question though. Is it just me, or
> does the time it takes to make a Complex Form incredably long?
>
> Ex. The same Otaku wants a 6D attack Complex Form (not too uncommon for
> regular deckers). The size would be 180MP (6*6*5). The base
> programming time would be 360 days (180*2, damn long if ya ask me).
> Minus the Otaku task bonus ([6 + 4]/4 (up) = 3) is 356 days (260 - 4).
> That's a whole year for one program. Most of my players have never made
> it to the next year of the campaign. (another thing, even if the Otaku
> had a Comp6 which is as high as a starting player can go, he'd only have
> 21 days to program Forms.
>
> Ex. The Otaku also wants a 6 Sleaze (almost a dire neccecity for a
> decker, better if higher). The size is 108MP (6*6*3). The base time is
> 216 days, minus the task bonus, 212 day. Again, more than half a year.
> And, also much more than 21 days.
>
> -Does anyone else see these problems?

Uh... no.

p. 77 defines the Task Bonus as improving the rate of time that they get
work done. The exampe they use is that if you have a bonus of +1, that
means that you get 2 days worth of work accomplished in 1 day. So, for
example, my Otaku that I run has Int and Cha of 8 each, plus a Cerebral
Booster Level 2 and an Encephalon Level 4, that gives him a Task Bonus of
+5. That means that for each day he works on his complex form, he is
able to gain the equivalent of six days worth of work. A simple formula
for this would be:

(Base Time)/(Task Bonus+1)

So, the 360 days gets reduced to only 2 months

In short, you _don't_ subtract, you _divide_.

Oh, and as for Otaku Computer Skill, the rules say that an Otaku "may
start out with no more than 8 dice in his computer skill", which we took
to mean that he could break the rules in regards to the max being six.
Otherwise that statement would be redundant if you were to count that as
including specialization.


> P.S. The same applies to regular decker programs custom programed. I
> know people that can crank out programs (and good hacking programs too)
> in real life, in 14 days!

Same applies to regular decker programs. The base time is if you sit
down with a pencil and paper and try to scratch it out. If you have good
recources at hand, you can easily divide the base time for the project by
a good deal.

> P.P.S. Also, I'd expect that scientists use the same methods as deckers
> (the ASIST programming interface, does that mean in a life times work
> they can only make less than about 35 programs!?!?! Again, some
> programmers in real life using "wearisome" programming code end up
> makeing 200+ programs in a carreer.
>

Same for scienties, chummer. =)

Division, folks. Multiplications tricky friend.

=)


|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 6
From: foreshadow@****.com (Mathew T Schaffer)
Subject: Re: VR2.0-Otaku (Yes it's back again, And now it's a new question)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:27:33 PST
On Mon, 10 Jun 1996 15:53:02 -0700 mike.paff@*****.com writes:
>This would work out as 43.2 days (216 / (4 + 1)).
>
Where are you getting the +1 from???

P.S. This question was actually meant to trigger a response to this
question. I use a house rule of the Otaku MPCP being (Int+Cha+Wil)/2.
This allows more standard MPCP ratings. (Like most normal deckers that
anyone has played in my campaign have had MPCP of 10-12). Also, even
though it may not pertain to the Otaku, it allows the Persona Progs
Rtgs. = MPCPx3 rule to be in effect.

----->Main question<-----
Now I like most house rules and am willing to accept them. So
Does anyone have a house rule for decreasing programming time?

Further Reading

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Thwap!