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Message no. 1
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:43:24 -0400
Twist wrote:

>What this topic was supposed to be about was the lack of atmosphere books
>under Mike's direction.

IMO you're waaayyyy off base here.
If you had said "lack of atmosphere since SR3 come out" I might have agreed
with you.
But IMO Mike M. has added MORE atmosphere since he took over.
Since his run started we have seen several Target books which, while geared
toward runners, certainly offer a better idea of the wide world out there.
We also got IMO the two best "flavor" books out there ... PoaD, and Bug
City!!!!
Bug City is the PERFECT game for non-runners!
You can have everyday people surviving behind the wall, reporters covering
the situation from the front lines, etc. etc. ad infinitum!!!

The whole Election 2057 deal offered a great opportunity for Reporters!
And while I wasn;t thrilled with Missions or the alternate game stuff from
SRComp, those books DO have some solid flavor of the rest of the SR world.


>Shadowrun was always about shadowrunning (okay,
>Shadowbeat aside, at least part of it) but before we had a broad view of
the
>shadowrun world and what social system we were working under. Shadowrun
was
>fleshed out as a real living and breathing world that our characters just
>operated in, not dominated the spotlight of.

Where are you getting this?
NAGtRL - while it DID cover other things, was really nothing more than a
runners primer on corp life.
Remember the runner comments about the "toy-guns" and the remote car starter
thingy?

The ONLY book I can really see as being non-runner oriented at all is
Shadowbeat.
And since it sold like shit you can hardly blame FASA for never doing
anything like that again.
After all, they are a company, a business.
Hell ...they're a CORP. ;-)

>Sure, GMs from before the new system can
>do whatever they want and keep the old flavor alive, but what about the new
>players SR3 was supposed to bring in? And for the vet GMs the lack of new
>sourcebook material fleshing out the world of Shadowrun other than the
>business of shadowrunning makes their jobs all the more difficult.

Aside from Shadowbeat ... what flavor are you missing?
I honestly don't see the problem?
IMO you're picking nits. This seems to be stuck in your craw, but I don't
see the problem at all.

>The example that came up during my and Mike M.'s debate was Shadowland.
>Shadowland only exists because of Neo-Anarchists. And yet Neo-Ananarchists
>don't seem to exist in SR3. And then what purpose does Shadowland serve?


And the Internet was built by/for the military, but I don't see anyone
saluting me. ;-)

>When I asked Mike this, he said it was to help shadowrunners, to get them
>info the corps don't want them to have, to help them pull of their various
>shadowruns. And then I asked why, why would CaptainChaos even care whether
>or not some shadowrunners pull off a run or the corps keep their
top-secrets
>top secret?

Because the good Cap'n has repeatedly shown his disdain for the corps, and
anyone who would squelch the truth.
While runners may be crooks, they do help get the info out there for anyone
who can get to it.
This has been shown to be the case in canon. What's the problem?

>Shadowrun is now just a
>game of crimes and how to commit better ones.

Always has been.

>Stuff like the Neo-A screed

Boring, wastes space in a printed product.
I'd rather have the extra pages of useful material.

>in NAGNA

Was written for runners despite your claims otherwise.
No different than a Target: book IMO.

>and Shadowbeat

Sold terribly = players DON'T want it!

>and Shadowfiles

You mean Corp Shadowfiles?
Gahh ... what a piece of excrement!
The book was useful to a minimum of people, publihsing crap like that is a
quick road to being bought by TSR

>Of course, SR3 has brought a lot of new players to the game, so maybe
people
>prefer this different approach.

Logical.
They do.

There's a TON of new stuff on the way.
This last year has been a rehashing of old material, the new stuff coming
looks like it should offer some of what you like.
Be patient! ;-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"God is my co-pilot, but the Devil is my bombardier."
Message no. 2
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:15:05 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 5:46:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

>
> >What this topic was supposed to be about was the lack of atmosphere books
> >under Mike's direction.
>
> IMO you're waaayyyy off base here.
> If you had said "lack of atmosphere since SR3 come out" I might have
agreed
> with you.
> But IMO Mike M. has added MORE atmosphere since he took over.
> Since his run started we have seen several Target books which, while geared
> toward runners, certainly offer a better idea of the wide world out there.
> We also got IMO the two best "flavor" books out there ... PoaD, and Bug
> City!!!!
> Bug City is the PERFECT game for non-runners!
> You can have everyday people surviving behind the wall, reporters covering
> the situation from the front lines, etc. etc. ad infinitum!!!



Um, Bug City was Dowd. And PoaD wasn't atmosphere really, it was "here's an
event to shadowrun around". Mike actually said he never released an
atmosphere book (in our chat) because they don't sell as well as others.



-Twist
Message no. 3
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:22:03 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 5:46:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

>
> >Shadowrun was always about shadowrunning (okay,
> >Shadowbeat aside, at least part of it) but before we had a broad view of
> the
> >shadowrun world and what social system we were working under. Shadowrun
> was
> >fleshed out as a real living and breathing world that our characters just
> >operated in, not dominated the spotlight of.
>
> Where are you getting this?
> NAGtRL - while it DID cover other things, was really nothing more than a
> runners primer on corp life.
> Remember the runner comments about the "toy-guns" and the remote car
starter
> thingy?
>
> The ONLY book I can really see as being non-runner oriented at all is
> Shadowbeat.
> And since it sold like shit you can hardly blame FASA for never doing
> anything like that again.
> After all, they are a company, a business.
> Hell ...they're a CORP. ;-)


I'm getting this from ten years of playing Shadowrun. NAGRL was a view of
life in Shadowrun. It may have offered *some* views of corporate life since
that is the work-a-day world for most and what GMs have to base most of the
NPCs off of, but that was only a small part of it.

And Lone Star was the worst selling book FASA ever put out, and until Aztlan
the place books sold so badly they were about to be discontinued until
Findley's Aztlan. Shadowbeat is the book Mike hates the most, and that the
reason you'll never see an atmosphere book for SR. Like I've said, he's very
"runner-centric". SR2 didn't focus on runners enough and SR3 focuses on them
too much. There seems to be no happy median for DLOHs.



-Twist
Message no. 4
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:23:28 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 5:46:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

> >Sure, GMs from before the new system can
> >do whatever they want and keep the old flavor alive, but what about the
new
> >players SR3 was supposed to bring in? And for the vet GMs the lack of new
> >sourcebook material fleshing out the world of Shadowrun other than the
> >business of shadowrunning makes their jobs all the more difficult.
>
> Aside from Shadowbeat ... what flavor are you missing?
> I honestly don't see the problem?
> IMO you're picking nits. This seems to be stuck in your craw, but I don't
> see the problem at all.


In my original post that you're replying to, I listed the examples of
atmosphere books.




-Twist
Message no. 5
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:29:16 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 5:46:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

> >info the corps don't want them to have, to help them pull of their various
> >shadowruns. And then I asked why, why would CaptainChaos even care
whether
> >or not some shadowrunners pull off a run or the corps keep their
> top-secrets
> >top secret?
>
> Because the good Cap'n has repeatedly shown his disdain for the corps, and
> anyone who would squelch the truth.
> While runners may be crooks, they do help get the info out there for anyone
> who can get to it.
> This has been shown to be the case in canon. What's the problem?


The problem is this case isn't supported under current sourcebooks. Now they
are just about ways to commit better crimes, as I've said earlier. A bunch
of shadowruns isn't interesting at all. It's just a generic series of
crimes. Shadowruns based off the rich Shadowrun political/social system
makes for good roleplaying. But there is no such current sourcebook
material.




-Twist
Message no. 6
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:31:15 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 5:46:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

> >Shadowrun is now just a
> >game of crimes and how to commit better ones.
>
> Always has been.


No, it used to be about people and the shadowruns that resulted from them.
Now it's crime for crime's sake.



-Twist
Message no. 7
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:34:56 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 5:46:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

> >Stuff like the Neo-A screed
>
> Boring, wastes space in a printed product.
> I'd rather have the extra pages of useful material.
>
> >in NAGNA
>
> Was written for runners despite your claims otherwise.
> No different than a Target: book IMO.


NAGRL's Neo-A screed gave you a sense of the motivations behind a political
faction in SR. If you consider that boring and a waste of space, I suppose
the entire Corp DL fits in that category too, or any placebook. And NAGNA
was written to give you an idea of the climates you're moving through, not a
key to how to commit better shadowruns. It was for roleplaying purposes.
The target books should be Neo-A books, that's my whole point. They fall
under that category and yet aren't for no apparent reason other than Mike is
cutting out the Neo-As.



-Twist
Message no. 8
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:37:37 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 5:46:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

> >and Shadowbeat
>
> Sold terribly = players DON'T want it!
>
> >and Shadowfiles
>
> You mean Corp Shadowfiles?
> Gahh ... what a piece of excrement!
> The book was useful to a minimum of people, publihsing crap like that is a
> quick road to being bought by TSR


Shadowbeat showed you a vial piece of the Shadowrun world: the entertainment
industry (which today is the true series of megacorps and backstabbing
industries). And Shadowfiles showed you how the corps actually function, not
just provided you with a smattering of info that will be out-dated in a few
years. If you're going for value for your money, you sure seem to back books
which continually need to be updated and doled out by FASA, not ones that
inspire continual GM opportunities.



-Twist
Message no. 9
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:55:51 -0400
>Um, Bug City was Dowd. And PoaD wasn't atmosphere really, it was "here's
an
>event to shadowrun around". Mike actually said he never released an
>atmosphere book (in our chat) because they don't sell as well as others.

Ummm no.
Bug City was Mike.
Dowd was on the outs just after Bug City got started.
Mike got dropped in the mix at the very start of it with a mess of bad
notes, and turned it into a showpiece.
Because Mike was new, and Dowd had started the book, Dowd appears as line
developer, but AFAIK from talking to Mike et al Mike is the one who actually
got Bug City done.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"God is my co-pilot, but the Devil is my bombardier."
Message no. 10
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:59:49 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippage(TM)>
> Shadowruns based off the rich Shadowrun political/social system makes
for good roleplaying. But there is no such current sourcebook
material.
> -Twist

*Doc' boggles. "Lordy, Twist, have you even done more than GLANCE at
New Seattle?"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 11
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:01:41 -0400
>The problem is this case isn't supported under current sourcebooks. Now
they
>are just about ways to commit better crimes, as I've said earlier. A
bunch
>of shadowruns isn't interesting at all. It's just a generic series of
>crimes. Shadowruns based off the rich Shadowrun political/social system
>makes for good roleplaying. But there is no such current sourcebook
>material.

New Seattle doesn't support this?
Corp Download doesn't support this?
MitS doesn't support this?
Threats doesn't support this?

Especially Threats. Threats was all about getting "The Truth" out to those
who need it.
It even managed to get some useful game material into play for KSAF - a trid
company ... kinda like Shadowbeat!
If Shadowbeat had been as useful overall as the KSAF chapter in Threats,
we'd probably have seen more of that kind of thing.

There is NOT a sourcebook simply devoted to life in 2060, no.
However, the overall arc of the sourcebooks, as well as the SR novels
certainly helps paint the picture.
Did you pick up Lisa Smedman's "The Lucifer Deck"?
Scarcely a runner in sight.
The characters are squatters, reporters, Neo-Anarchist trid pirates, etc.
IMO that's where the "normal-life" flavor stuff has really been shining
lately.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"God is my co-pilot, but the Devil is my bombardier."
Message no. 12
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:10:27 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 11:00:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> > Shadowruns based off the rich Shadowrun political/social system makes
> for good roleplaying. But there is no such current sourcebook
> material.
> > -Twist
>
> *Doc' boggles. "Lordy, Twist, have you even done more than GLANCE at
> New Seattle?"*
> ==

NS only compiles the information in Seattle and sections of Underworld and
Download, really. But it does provide more atmosphere than the typical place
book.




-Twist
Message no. 13
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:12:16 -0400
>NAGRL's Neo-A screed gave you a sense of the motivations behind a political
>faction in SR. If you consider that boring and a waste of space, I suppose
>the entire Corp DL fits in that category too, or any placebook. And NAGNA
>was written to give you an idea of the climates you're moving through, not
a
>key to how to commit better shadowruns. It was for roleplaying purposes.
>The target books should be Neo-A books, that's my whole point. They fall
>under that category and yet aren't for no apparent reason other than Mike
is
>cutting out the Neo-As.

I'm not going to repost my thoughts on just why the Neo-A's make no damn
sense, don't fit the SR world, and never acheived their goals in the first
place.
I've already done that ... check the archives for Neo-A's.
It'll be in the last few months.

If you are referring to the huge Neo-A manifesto as "screed" then yeah.
That was IMO a trite bit of fluff that good trees shouldn't have had to die
for.
If it had been called a Neo-Socio-Socialist Manifesto that would be
different, but Anarchist? Hardly.
The Neo-A's were poorly contrived, never well represented in anything other
than the book titles, and made for deadly dull reading.

SR is an ACTION/ADVENTURE RPG.
The Neo-A's are hack political science.
If I want propaganda, I'll head for the Marxist reading room.
When I buy an SR book, I want action, and I think I'm not alone.

If you like the Neo-A's ... use them.
No game police are gonna stop you.
Hell make a good website about them, write something other than the already
published drivel about them.
Prove me wrong, show me how the Neo-A's ever added anything of value to the
SR universe and I'll cheer your name to the skies.
I'm all in favor of good source material, FASA has contributor's guidelines
on their website.
Get some new Neo-A material publsihed, that makes them useful, that shows
how they matter.
Write a module that gives rockers and reporters a facelift.

I've talked to Mike, he's a reasonable man.
If you create something that is exciting and sells well he''ll publish it.
The odds of that are IMO quite slim if you focus on non-runner stuff, but it
could happen, and I honestly would like to see it.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"God is my co-pilot, but the Devil is my bombardier."
Message no. 14
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:17:08 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 11:04:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

> >The problem is this case isn't supported under current sourcebooks. Now
> they
> >are just about ways to commit better crimes, as I've said earlier. A
> bunch
> >of shadowruns isn't interesting at all. It's just a generic series of
> >crimes. Shadowruns based off the rich Shadowrun political/social system
> >makes for good roleplaying. But there is no such current sourcebook
> >material.
>
> New Seattle doesn't support this? No.
> Corp Download doesn't support this? Nope.
> MitS doesn't support this? Only the three pages at the start.
> Threats doesn't support this? Nope.

One's a place book that just offers plot hooks, not a true look at the life
in the sprawl. The next is another series of plot hooks for corps, no
lifestyle info. The next is a rulebook with only a few pages at the start
for atmosphere. And the last is a series of rumors for shadowrunners, not
life in Shadowrun.
>
> Especially Threats. Threats was all about getting "The Truth" out to those
> who need it.
> It even managed to get some useful game material into play for KSAF - a
trid
> company ... kinda like Shadowbeat!
> If Shadowbeat had been as useful overall as the KSAF chapter in Threats,
> we'd probably have seen more of that kind of thing.


Threats especially offered no lifestyle atmosphere of Shadowrun. Except
maybe Tutor, as a view of the wierd junk that can come out of astral space
and affect pretty much anyone (even those not involved in shadowrunning).





-Twist
Message no. 15
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:19:00 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 11:15:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

> SR is an ACTION/ADVENTURE RPG.
> The Neo-A's are hack political science.
> If I want propaganda, I'll head for the Marxist reading room.
> When I buy an SR book, I want action, and I think I'm not alone.


Shadowrun is a roleplaying game. How can you roleplay NPCs or PCs without
knowing the climates in which they operate? Neo-Anarchism is one of those
climates. If you want action, play BattleTech. If you want roleplaying,
read the Neo-A books.





-Twist
Message no. 16
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:20:49 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 11:15:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

> I'm not going to repost my thoughts on just why the Neo-A's make no damn
> sense, don't fit the SR world, and never acheived their goals in the first
> place.
> I've already done that ... check the archives for Neo-A's.
> It'll be in the last few months.


So a political system that directly opposes another makes no sense? If
corporate coercion dominates SR (as it does) then it's natural that the
diametrical opposite would arise.




-Twist
Message no. 17
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:26:18 -0400
On 15 Aug 99, at 17:43, Steven A. Tinner wrote:

> And the Internet was built by/for the military, but I don't see anyone
> saluting me. ;-)

:: Nightshade throws Tinner a ragged salute,... then ducks and
runs.::

---
Speak softly and carry a plus-six bastard sword.
--source unknown


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 18
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:29:22 -0400
>Threats especially offered no lifestyle atmosphere of Shadowrun. Except
>maybe Tutor, as a view of the wierd junk that can come out of astral space
>and affect pretty much anyone (even those not involved in shadowrunning).

OK, so the info on the Humanis policlub doesn;t affect metahumans at all,
then right?
And the info on Lofwyr doesn't affect your average businessman in any way?
Of course that must also mean that the local news never mentions the actions
of a terrorist group like Winternight either, right?
And the news probably didn't make any fuss or hype at all over news of a new
breed of bug in the sprawl.

;-)

You might want to actually READ these books before making broad statements
about them ...

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"God is my co-pilot, but the Devil is my bombardier."
Message no. 19
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:25:10 -0400
At 11:17 PM 8/15/99 , Twist0059@***.com wrote:
>Threats especially offered no lifestyle atmosphere of Shadowrun. Except
>maybe Tutor, as a view of the wierd junk that can come out of astral space
>and affect pretty much anyone (even those not involved in shadowrunning).
>
>-Twist


If you're looking for atmosphere books, why don't you get some of the
novels? Don't pay attention to the rules parts, or worry that a mage casts
a spell that he shouldn't. Check out the parts of how the characters live
(big difference between Dirk Montgomery and Donald Sutherland).

Isn't that one of the best reasons to read them?



Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 20
From: Bob Tockley arkham@*******.com.au
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:35:00 +1000
>Ummm no.
>Bug City was Mike.
>Dowd was on the outs just after Bug City got started.
>Mike got dropped in the mix at the very start of it with a mess of bad
>notes, and turned it into a showpiece.
>Because Mike was new, and Dowd had started the book, Dowd appears as line
>developer, but AFAIK from talking to Mike et al Mike is the one who actually
>got Bug City done.

The way I understood it, the majority of the concepts and writing had been
done on Bug City before Dowd left. Mulvihill simply stepped in and managed
to hold the project together well enough to get it printed. Strangely
enough, within six months of the release of Bug City, the quality of
Shadowrun material began to slide. Coincidence? I think not. But I guess
that's what happens when you let any old wannabe write sourcebooks... No
offence intended to those of you who do write them -- especially those who
know me in real life and are most likely sharpening sticks and hefting
their hickory sticks for their trip over to my house... \=)

(>) ARKHAM
"Embrace the inevitable."
Message no. 21
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 03:27:29 -0400
Once upon a time, Twist0059@***.com wrote;

>No, it used to be about people and the shadowruns that resulted from them.
>Now it's crime for crime's sake.

I find the opposite to be true for me now.

Ah, come on, just admit it. You are trolling aren't you?

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 22
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 04:22:52 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/99 3:28:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mc23@**********.com writes:

> >No, it used to be about people and the shadowruns that resulted from them.

> >Now it's crime for crime's sake.
>
> I find the opposite to be true for me now.
>
> Ah, come on, just admit it. You are trolling aren't you?


Trolling?? I'm not sure if that means looking for an argument on the topic,
but if so the answer is no. I'm honestly posting what I feel, and I expect
that others are doing the same. What I have a problem with in this kind of
format is that rarely are opinions expressed and left at that. Inevitably
the threads degenerate into bickering, insults, and rudeness. It'd be nice
if we could all remember these are topics of discussion, not arguments
between people. Less merry-go-round threads that way.

Throughout the day I've kept responding to the posts, but it's getting
obvious that new points aren't being raised, things are just being rehashed
over and over. Pretty much the answers I've posted all day are my
comprehensive feelings on the topic, so I'll settle back and lurk until
something new on the theme comes up, in interest of minimizing list clutter
of just repeating myself to different posters.



-Twist
Message no. 23
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:52:24 CST
>From: Twist0059@***.com
>No, it used to be about people and the shadowruns that resulted from them.
>Now it's crime for crime's sake.

Ummm. Could you gimme an example?


Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


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Message no. 24
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:57:58 CST
>From: Twist0059@***.com

(THE BIG SNIP tm)

>under that category and yet aren't for no apparent reason other than Mike
>is
>cutting out the Neo-As.


So basically, you're lamenting the loss of the Neo-A's. OK that I can
understand. I may not agree, but I understand. :)

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


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Message no. 25
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:22:29 CST
>From: Twist0059@***.com

>NS only compiles the information in Seattle and sections of Underworld and
>Download, really. But it does provide more atmosphere than the typical
>place
>book.

Ummm. Twist did we read the same book. NS did more than just compile. It
fleshed out a lot of Seattle that the original Serattle book didn't cover
IMO.

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


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Message no. 26
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:11:39 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 9:58:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

>
> Ummm no.
> Bug City was Mike.
> Dowd was on the outs just after Bug City got started.
> Mike got dropped in the mix at the very start of it with a mess of bad
> notes, and turned it into a showpiece.
> Because Mike was new, and Dowd had started the book, Dowd appears as line
> developer, but AFAIK from talking to Mike et al Mike is the one who
actually
> got Bug City done.

APPLAUSE!!! YEAH TINNER!!!

-K (who also had this answer, but has discovered the problems that come from
"talking with Mike" and trying to convert that information to something other
people can understand or comprehend with intelligence)
Message no. 27
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:31:46 CST
>From: Twist0059@***.com
>One's a place book that just offers plot hooks, not a true look at the life
>in the sprawl. The next is another series of plot hooks for corps, no
>lifestyle info. The next is a rulebook with only a few pages at the start
>for atmosphere. And the last is a series of rumors for shadowrunners, not
>life in Shadowrun.

You are wrong about CD Twist. In the write-up for each corp there is a
little section on what the life of an employee is like. Not a "company
(wo)man" but a regular employee. NS gave me a good idea of what life was
like in the various areas of Seattle. Neither book gave a lot of detail,
but how much detail do we need anyway?

>Threats especially offered no lifestyle atmosphere of Shadowrun. Except
>maybe Tutor, as a view of the wierd junk that can come out of astral space
>and affect pretty much anyone (even those not involved in shadowrunning).

I kinda straddle the fence on this one. The stuff on KSAF was helpful. But
yeah, there wasn't a lot on "real life" in Threats. But hey, it wasn't
supposed to have any! :)


Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


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Message no. 28
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:34:06 CST
>From: Twist0059@***.com
>Shadowrun is a roleplaying game. How can you roleplay NPCs or PCs without
>knowing the climates in which they operate? Neo-Anarchism is one of those
>climates. If you want action, play BattleTech. If you want roleplaying,
>read the Neo-A books.

Or the Target books. :) (ducks and runs for cover!)



Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


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Message no. 29
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:09:40 +700
> I find the opposite to be true for me now.
>
>Ah, come on, just admit it. You are trolling aren't you?

Trolling: (Troll) Anyone who posts an opinion to any forum that disagrees with
one's own.

Munchkin: Any person who participates in the RPG hobby using a style one finds
distastful.

Arcady WebRPG Magistrate http://townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/brianfw/brianfw.html
/.)\ Projects: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/1865/
\(@/ Homepage: http://www.jps.net/arcady/
Message no. 30
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:32:06 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/1999 3:24:16 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> It'd be nice
> if we could all remember these are topics of discussion, not arguments
> between people. Less merry-go-round threads that way.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

MAKE IT STOP!!! Oh please!!??!! MAKE IT STOP!!!!

-K
Message no. 31
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:07:34 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 8:31:07 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> Shadowruns based off the rich Shadowrun political/social system
> makes for good roleplaying. But there is no such current sourcebook
> material.

Two things...

A) THAT is exactly what Super Tuesday, Blood in the Boardroom, and Mob War
were...

B) THAT is exactly what is being sought after for upcoming stuff...

-K
Message no. 32
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:12:24 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 10:00:48 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> > Shadowruns based off the rich Shadowrun political/social system makes
> for good roleplaying. But there is no such current sourcebook
> material.
> > -Twist
>
> *Doc' boggles. "Lordy, Twist, have you even done more than GLANCE at
> New Seattle?"*

He probably has Doc', but unfortunately, he has forgotten how to read
properly beyond the lines in front of him to realize what he's reading..

-K
Message no. 33
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:44:30 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Arcady."
] Trolling: (Troll) Anyone who posts an opinion to any forum that
disagrees with
] one's own.
]
] Munchkin: Any person who participates in the RPG hobby using a style
one finds
] distastful.

:)

Nicely put, Arcady.

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Message no. 34
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:51:27 -0400
At 23.12 08-15-99 -0400, you wrote:
>SR is an ACTION/ADVENTURE RPG.
>When I buy an SR book, I want action, and I think I'm not alone.

Action for action's sake is a waste of time and motion.
What is lacking is in the newer books is any motivation other than the
Almighty Nuyen and being a Dunky Culty.

>Prove me wrong, show me how the Neo-A's ever added anything of value to the
>SR universe and I'll cheer your name to the skies.

Flavor, just like ORC, and Humanis, and MOM, and finding out what the
Desert Wars really are, and data on the new sport (Urban Brawl for one),
and other socio-political flavorants. They make the game more than just
run-and-gun. I want to be able to look up who the folks to be seen with
are seen in (I've been around "society" dams once or twice, and I'm hoping
it isn't sheer), how bad the average homeless shelter looks like, that kind
of thing.

>I've talked to Mike, he's a reasonable man.

A man who supposedly admits to being prejudiced against atmoshpere books,
is not, if those reports are accurate (if they are, please disprove, and
I've asked Twist to prove), a resonable, unbiased opinion. Not when he has
the final say about what does and doesn't get published.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your pholosophy."
Message no. 35
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:51:27 -0400
At 23.12 08-15-99 -0400, you wrote:
>SR is an ACTION/ADVENTURE RPG.
>When I buy an SR book, I want action, and I think I'm not alone.

Action for action's sake is a waste of time and motion.
What is lacking is in the newer books is any motivation other than the
Almighty Nuyen and being a Dunky Culty.

>Prove me wrong, show me how the Neo-A's ever added anything of value to the
>SR universe and I'll cheer your name to the skies.

Flavor, just like ORC, and Humanis, and MOM, and finding out what the
Desert Wars really are, and data on the new sport (Urban Brawl for one),
and other socio-political flavorants. They make the game more than just
run-and-gun. I want to be able to look up who the folks to be seen with
are seen in (I've been around "society" dams once or twice, and I'm hoping
it isn't sheer), how bad the average homeless shelter looks like, that kind
of thing.

>I've talked to Mike, he's a reasonable man.

A man who supposedly admits to being prejudiced against atmoshpere books,
is not, if those reports are accurate (if they are, please disprove, and
I've asked Twist to prove), a resonable, unbiased opinion. Not when he has
the final say about what does and doesn't get published.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your pholosophy."
Message no. 36
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 20:37:05 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/99 1:44:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> He probably has Doc', but unfortunately, he has forgotten how to read
> properly beyond the lines in front of him to realize what he's reading..

Twist has replied (a LOT :-) with his opinions, buyt he has not attacked you
personally, why drag it that way?
If your opinions differ on the matter, thats fine <shrug>
Twist is merely saying that the gameworld requires a certain level of
atmosphere, a living breathing world (in his opinion the Neo-A's play a large
part here) detailed in sourcebooks. (Novels have been mentioned, and are good
in some regards, but they are also nowhere near reliable)
The average daily life in SR, what is it, how does it work?
In Twists Opinion; the new feel of the SR world is discarding these
elements of life outside of the DungeonCrawl™ (okat, that is over
simplifacation of Twist opinion, but hey :-)
Message no. 37
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:27:20 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/99 1:15:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> > It'd be nice
> > if we could all remember these are topics of discussion, not arguments
> > between people. Less merry-go-round threads that way.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>
>
> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
>
> MAKE IT STOP!!! Oh please!!??!! MAKE IT STOP!!!!
>
> -K


It's funny you should say that, because you're the person I was directly
posing that post to, K. Everyone else has at least cited example and
opinions. You've been on some kind of personal attack rant.



-Twist
Message no. 38
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:30:08 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/99 1:44:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> > *Doc' boggles. "Lordy, Twist, have you even done more than GLANCE at
> > New Seattle?"*
>
> He probably has Doc', but unfortunately, he has forgotten how to read
> properly beyond the lines in front of him to realize what he's reading..
>
> -K


And another personal attack. And Bull's post on his distress at such things
being so recent, too....





-Twist
Message no. 39
From: JonSzeto@***.com JonSzeto@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:40:09 EDT
Twist0059@***.com writes,

> NS only compiles the information in Seattle and sections of Underworld and
> Download, really. But it does provide more atmosphere than the typical
> place book.

Up until now, I have been willing to let this thread burn itself out,
but I have to respond to this: I take great exception to your dismissal
of New Seattle as a mere "compilation," Twist.

Though everyone's overlooked it, I had a helping hand in writing New
Seattle. I wrote the section on Fort Lewis (pp. 55-57), as well as a
short bit on military politics (on p. 78). Except for a few paragraphs
describing the Urban Combat Simulator and the Zoological Gardens,
everything in those few scant words was completely original material.

One of the aims I had when I wrote about Fort Lewis and the military was
to get away from the common perception (I would say misconception) that
many Shadowrun players/GMs (IMO) had of the military: a bunch of kick-
butt supercommandos with wiz-bang, bleeding edge big guns. Instead, I
wanted to focus on story arcs that centered on military politics and
intrigue. (I was a staff weenie for four years, so believe me, I know
about military politics.) One way of doing this was to bring in General
Colloton and the UCAS federal forces, to act as a source of political
friction against the Metroplex Guard. (I know General Colloton first
appeared in RA:S in reaction to the Shutdown, but that was a story arc
that I had collaborated with Brian Schoner and Steve Kenson with.) At
the same time, I also managed to get the good General butting heads not
only with the Mafia, but also Lone Star and the Humanis Policlub.

The Army vs. the Guard. The Army vs. the Mafia. The Army vs. Humanis.
Yeah, I'd pretty much say that "narrows" the focus down, don't you?

OK, I have to admit, one of the main purposes of New Seattle was to
update the old Seattle Sourcebook. But both Steve Kenson and I also
wanted to introduce some new plot hooks and story arcs for gamemasters
to take the ball and run with. All right, so we didn't put big blazing
neon signs around them and hire a bunch of singers to scream out "New
material! New material!" But I also think that we didn't bury the new
material so deep that you needed an earth mover to dig them out. There's
new material in there--- you just have to do more than skim the surface.

I think everyone is just going to have to be patient with FASA. They are
not a big company (few gaming companies, I have found, are), and they do
have three (four if you count MechWarrior as a separate "game") other
game lines to support. And give Mike Mulvihill a little credit: in every
book that's been introduced in the third edtion, he's made an effort to
include *SOME* new material (some fiction, some rules) in just about
every book. (Not all, I'll admit, but certainly the large majority.)

Finally, I'd like to offer a little bit of perspective: everyone (or
almost everyone) points to Shadowbeat as the penultimate "atmosphere"
book. However, Shadowbeat came out in early 1992. That was three years,
five place books, two "character" books, two gear books (I consider the
original RBB a gear book), and about a half-dozen adventure books after
the release of the first edition rulebook. (SR2 wouldn't come out until
August of '92, at GenCon. And on a side note, in all of those books, the
Neo-As only appeared explicitly only in *one*.)

If we old-timers can wait three years for an "atmosphere" book, surely
the rest of you can wait half as long for Year of the Comet or
Awakening: The First 50 Years. :-)

There. I've said my bit. Let this thread die.

-- Jon
Message no. 40
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:51:44 -0700 (PDT)
<BigSnip(TM)>
> There. I've said my bit. Let this thread die.
>
> -- Jon

*Doc' would applaud, but he doesn't want to...oh, what the hell.

<applause>

Thank you, Jon. As usual, someone says what I've been trying to say
much more eloquently. :)*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 41
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:31:30 -0700
At 09:40 PM 16/08/99 , JonSzeto@***.com annoyed me by writing:

>If we old-timers can wait three years for an "atmosphere" book, surely
>the rest of you can wait half as long for Year of the Comet or
>Awakening: The First 50 Years. :-)

>There. I've said my bit. Let this thread die.

Hey Jon! We're going to Dante's inferno for my birthday! You're joining us
right?!

;)

--
Dvixen - dvixen@********.com - dvixen@****.com
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 42
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 05:57:25 -0400
>>SR is an ACTION/ADVENTURE RPG.
>>When I buy an SR book, I want action, and I think I'm not alone.
>
> Action for action's sake is a waste of time and motion.

For you.
Not for me, or many other player apparently.
Also, please note that I never said, "mindless violence" or even "action
for
action's sake"
Given a choice though, I think the general target audience for SR would
choose a Target book over a Neo-A book nine time out of ten, and the sales
prove me out so far.

> What is lacking is in the newer books is any motivation other than the
>Almighty Nuyen and being a Dunky Culty.

Which are good solid motivations for beginning players.
If an experienced player can't think of anything else to do ... I'd just as
soon not play with anyone that creativity-impaired thanks.

>>Prove me wrong, show me how the Neo-A's ever added anything of value to
the
>>SR universe and I'll cheer your name to the skies.
>
> Flavor, just like ORC, and Humanis, and MOM, and finding out what the
>Desert Wars really are, and data on the new sport (Urban Brawl for one),
>and other socio-political flavorants. They make the game more than just
>run-and-gun. I want to be able to look up who the folks to be seen with
>are seen in (I've been around "society" dams once or twice, and I'm hoping
>it isn't sheer), how bad the average homeless shelter looks like, that kind
>of thing.

This stuff is still being covered in SR canon, just not in the sourcebooks.
Get the novels. All this and more is there.
Want a TON of info on Miami, street life, metahuman prejudice, and how it
affects the average person?
Read Shadowboxer.
Wanna know how a street kid gorws up in Boston, how homosexuals are treated
in 205X?
Read Crossroads.

The falvor is out there.
However, it's been placed where those who want it can get it, while those
who don;t care can ignore it.
Smart marketing if you ask me, not to mention all the additional sales for
FASA.

>>I've talked to Mike, he's a reasonable man.
>
> A man who supposedly admits to being prejudiced against atmoshpere books,
>is not, if those reports are accurate (if they are, please disprove, and
>I've asked Twist to prove), a resonable, unbiased opinion. Not when he has
>the final say about what does and doesn't get published.

Being reasonable does not presuppose being unbiased.
I'm glad Mike isn't unbiased.
A line developer NEEDS a vision of what he wants in the game, and according
to sales - which ultimately are ALL that matter, Mike's vision is good.
As for just what Mike is predjudiced against, I don't want to speak for him,
but IIRC the gist of what he said was not that he didn;t like atmosphere,
but that atmosphere books by themselves did not sell.
I think it's atmosphere for atmosphere's sake that Mike is avoiding.
If it doesn;t add directly to the game, then it can be sandwiched into a
Target book et. al.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"God is my co-pilot, but the Devil is my bombardier."
Message no. 43
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 06:07:55 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/99 6:00:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

> >>SR is an ACTION/ADVENTURE RPG.
> >>When I buy an SR book, I want action, and I think I'm not alone.
> >
> > Action for action's sake is a waste of time and motion.
>
> For you.
> Not for me, or many other player apparently.
> Also, please note that I never said, "mindless violence" or even
"action
for
> action's sake"
> Given a choice though, I think the general target audience for SR would
> choose a Target book over a Neo-A book nine time out of ten, and the sales
> prove me out so far.
>


Well, NAGRL did come out in 1992. And NAGNA in 1990. Shadowrun's audience
has grown a tad since then.




-Twist
Message no. 44
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 07:08:19 -0500
From: JonSzeto@***.com

<major snipping>

> If we old-timers can wait three years for an "atmosphere" book, surely
> the rest of you can wait half as long for Year of the Comet or
> Awakening: The First 50 Years. :-)
>
> There. I've said my bit. Let this thread die.

<stands and applauds wildly from the peanut gallery>

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 45
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:21:18 -0400
>> Given a choice though, I think the general target audience for SR would
>> choose a Target book over a Neo-A book nine time out of ten, and the
sales
>> prove me out so far.
>>
>Well, NAGRL did come out in 1992. And NAGNA in 1990. Shadowrun's audience
>has grown a tad since then.

You're right, the core group has gotten larger.
However I meant to refer to the demographics of said group.
SR's target audience is white males, aged 16-25 or so.
Yes, I know there's plenty of other types of players out there, but this is
the GENERAL demographic.
IMO that demographic doesn't give a flying wodewose about the misnamed
Neo-Anarchists, daily life in the 2060's etc.
In GENERAL, these players want to participate in a game about runners, and
making runs.
If they do downtime/real life stuff at all, most of them will either
bluebook it, handle it "off panel", or make up their own background anyway.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"God is my co-pilot, but the Devil is my bombardier."
Message no. 46
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:50:22 -0700
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
<snip stuff about teenagers>

You'd be surprised. Most of those types go to AD&D first, then NEVER leave it.
By the time you find SR, RP is usually in the forefront. Meaning...I've seen
some VERY weird campaigns from even NEWBIE SR players in my age group (actually,
it's more 15-25, thanks.). Like Neo-As, or pimps. Or...hookers. The Neo-As
actually are pretty popular with that age group(around here, at
least.)...Mostly, cuz, well....That just sounds COOL to most. Power to the
PEOPLE! and such. About daily life...no, most don't care MUCH about the extreme
details...but, what's on TV? What school and politics is like? What SEX and
dating is like in the 2050s-2060s? Yup. (OK, I never DID mention the personafix
chips to anyone...they would all have WAAAAAAAAY too much...>fun< with that,
methinks.}:>)

John
Message no. 47
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:37:35 -0400
At 17.21 08-17-99 -0400, you wrote:
>However I meant to refer to the demographics of said group.
>SR's target audience is white males, aged 16-25 or so.

That may be the target, but I recall reading somewheres that there are
many players keep at it after they get out of school, get real jobs, start
a family, et al. They have the disposable income, and I think they are
going to keep increaseing in number as time goes on.

>If they do downtime/real life stuff at all, most of them will either
>bluebook it, handle it "off panel", or make up their own background anyway.

More their loss. One of the most enjoyable and memorable sessions I can
remember for any RPG was one night were the muse had not struck the GM, but
none of us felt like going home, so we ended up being our characters,
sitting around, shooting the breeze, argueeing and going over our previous
missions and figuring out what we counld have done better. Hell of a lot
of fun, and all but the most die-hard munchkins will join in fairly soon
(or fall asleep, in which case, you can blame any pranks you ply on them on
your alter egos <g>).


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your pholosophy."
Message no. 48
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:50:34 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/99 5:24:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

> >> Given a choice though, I think the general target audience for SR would
> >> choose a Target book over a Neo-A book nine time out of ten, and the
> sales
> >> prove me out so far.
> >>
> >Well, NAGRL did come out in 1992. And NAGNA in 1990. Shadowrun's
audience
> >has grown a tad since then.
>
> You're right, the core group has gotten larger.
> However I meant to refer to the demographics of said group.
> SR's target audience is white males, aged 16-25 or so.
> Yes, I know there's plenty of other types of players out there, but this is
> the GENERAL demographic.
> IMO that demographic doesn't give a flying wodewose about the misnamed
> Neo-Anarchists, daily life in the 2060's etc.
> In GENERAL, these players want to participate in a game about runners, and
> making runs.
> If they do downtime/real life stuff at all, most of them will either
> bluebook it, handle it "off panel", or make up their own background
anyway.
>
> Steven A. Tinner


That's a nice argument, but you said up above that the Target books would be
chosen over a Neo-A book nine times out of ten and that the *sales* so far
agree with you. This kind of thing is directly affected by the number of
audience members a particular game has. With a substantially larger gamer
base, any given book released is likely to out-sell a much older edition that
is now OOP. How many people were playing SR in 1990 or 1992? How many are
playing SR currently in 1999?





-Twist
Message no. 49
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:15:09 -0400
>That's a nice argument, but you said up above that the Target books would
be
>chosen over a Neo-A book nine times out of ten and that the *sales* so far
>agree with you. This kind of thing is directly affected by the number of
>audience members a particular game has. With a substantially larger gamer
>base, any given book released is likely to out-sell a much older edition
that
>is now OOP. How many people were playing SR in 1990 or 1992? How many are
>playing SR currently in 1999?

You're right, there ARE more SR players in 1999 than in 1990, or 1992.
I'm glad you agree with me! ;-)

Re-read your above comments, and then ask yourself WHY there are more SR
players today than back then.
Is it because there are that many more gamers?
Or is it because the direction FASA has taken SR has struck a nerve with the
target audience, and the game has grown because of it?

While the number of actual gamers has certainly increased, SR's growth has
been exponential, especially in the last year.
That's more due to a better written, more accessible game, than any other
factor IMO.

Here's my pentultimate take on the whole thing, because I'm getting tired of
playing circular logic games on this topic.

1 - ATMOSPHERE IS A GOOD THING
I have NO problem with good atmosphere. I'd love to see more of it, but not
at the expense of keeping the game vibrant, and selling well enough to get
more than three sourcebooks a year.
I love Changeling the Dreaming for its atmosphere, but that didn;t keep WW
from dumping it to Arthaus when the sales couldn;t keep up.
I'd hate to see the same happen to SR.

2 - PERSONALLY I HATE THE NEO-ANARCHISTS.
But that's my personal opinion.
I've detailed the reasons before.
If someone can turn them around, great.
If you wanna use em in your game, great.
You ask me? They suck Dzoo-Noo-Crotch.

3 - SALES = SERVICE
As long as FASA has growth on SR sales things are not gonna change.
Like it or lumo it, it's a dog-eat-dog industry, and if you're on top, you
keep doing what got you there.

4 - STATIC IS ANOTHER WORD FOR STAGNANT
Keeping the game in 2050 is asinine.
This means you can never add new gear, change political leaders, rearrange
the trid scedule etc.
Once you create the SR atmosphere, if it has to stay in 2050, then nothing
can ever leave, and few innovations can be added.
Still waters may run deep, but they tend to breed vermin. :-P

5 - IT'S YOUR GAME
Do whatever you want.
Bitch all you want.
But know that bitching about the current direction of the SR universe is
akin to complaining that you're being too highly paid. ;-)
It don;t make sense!

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"God is my co-pilot, but the Devil is my bombardier."
Message no. 50
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 00:12:09 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/99 11:18:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:


> Re-read your above comments, and then ask yourself WHY there are more SR
> players today than back then.
> Is it because there are that many more gamers?
> Or is it because the direction FASA has taken SR has struck a nerve with
the
> target audience, and the game has grown because of it?


The recent growth in the past year, yet again, is not so much do to SR3
coming up with brilliant new concepts. VR2 and R2 were out longer before
SR3. It's that finally Shadowrun exists in one core rulebook. Even if Dowd
were still DLOH, this probably would have been done by now, with the same
results.

And the argument was which would sell better, Neo-A books or Target. You
claimed Target because of the sales figures, when that's really like
comparing box office totals between Titanic and Gone With The Wind. GwtW,
adjusted for inflation, still beats Titantic. If a Neo-A book was put out
right now, with this larger audience, it would sell at least as well as the
Target books, and maybe better. The Shadowrun line also grew in sales just
between 1990 (NAGNA) and 1994 (Bug City). The years when Dowd was still in
charge, the years when we didn't have the new cool decking or rigging rules.



-Twist
Message no. 51
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:09:40 -0400
At 23.15 08-17-99 -0400, you wrote:
>Or is it because the direction FASA has taken SR has struck a nerve with the
>target audience, and the game has grown because of it?

Or is it that they have had enough time for be several "generations" of SR
players.
Play for a year or two, then GM you group, as people drift in and out,
taking capable GMs out into the world, all grown up and ready to begin
thier own SR ministry with new members and a small core of experince
players. <sniff, brings a tear to my eye to see them all grown up>

>That's more due to a better written, more accessible game, than any other

More accessable, any ways. SR3 is pretty easy to find, and it is flashy.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 52
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:00:43 -0500
> 5 - IT'S YOUR GAME
> Do whatever you want.
> Bitch all you want.
> But know that bitching about the current direction of the SR universe is
> akin to complaining that you're being too highly paid. ;-)
> It don;t make sense!
>
Actually, I don't see this analogy. As well, I don't see your point. As a
consumer I have a right to expect certain things from a product. That is
what this is about.

So If I complain about being highly paid, I'm complaining that everything is
too perfect?

I don't see this for SR. If it was perfect, I wouldn't have need to
complain. Since it's not (since I didn't come up with it can't be perfect
(for me)), I have no right to complain?

Could you explain this point a little more?
Message no. 53
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Wait and see. (Was SR Narrowing of focus)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:42:11 -0400
At 12:12 AM 8/18/99 -0400, Twist wrote:
>In a message dated 8/17/99 11:18:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>bluewizard@*****.com writes:
>
>
> > Re-read your above comments, and then ask yourself WHY there are more SR
> > players today than back then.
> > Is it because there are that many more gamers?
> > Or is it because the direction FASA has taken SR has struck a nerve with
>the
> > target audience, and the game has grown because of it?
>
>
>The recent growth in the past year, yet again, is not so much do to SR3
>coming up with brilliant new concepts. VR2 and R2 were out longer before
>SR3. It's that finally Shadowrun exists in one core rulebook. Even if Dowd
>were still DLOH, this probably would have been done by now, with the same
>results.

It can be argued that part of the reason that happened was that R2 and VR2
were done with SR3 in mind, and were done to validate the concept. Since
nothing much changed between what they put in there and the basic rules in
SR3, you can pretty much consider them SR3 books.

>And the argument was which would sell better, Neo-A books or Target. You
>claimed Target because of the sales figures, when that's really like
>comparing box office totals between Titanic and Gone With The Wind. GwtW,
>adjusted for inflation, still beats Titantic. If a Neo-A book was put out
>right now, with this larger audience, it would sell at least as well as the
>Target books, and maybe better. The Shadowrun line also grew in sales just
>between 1990 (NAGNA) and 1994 (Bug City). The years when Dowd was still in
>charge, the years when we didn't have the new cool decking or rigging rules.
>
>-Twist

You can't really compare that either. You're opinion is that the Target
books are selling more than the Neo-A books because there is a bigger
audience. If that is true, it could be that the Neo-A's would also benefit
from the bigger market, although there is still no way to tell if they
would sell as well or better than Target books.

The most direct comparison would be to check percentages. Assume that the
sale of the main book is you're determining factor for how many people are
playing. Then check sales records for the following three cases:

SR1 -> Neo A guides, Shadowplay
SR2 -> Place books, early Target: books
SR3 -> RA:S, New Seattle, etc

See what the trend is for what percentage of players (main book) bought
these other supplements.



Sommers
Insert witty quote here.

Further Reading

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Thwap!