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Message no. 1
From: J. Keith Henry (NeoJ) neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 05:27:48 -0500
----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: Want a new Limb?


> |]RESEARCHERS MAY GIVE HUMANS THE ABILITY TO REGENERATE LIMBS August 12,
> |]2000
> |]
> |] Fox News reported: Humans could grow back lost limbs just like a newt
if,
> |]as some researchers believe, cells can be reminded how to regenerate,
New
> |]Scientist magazine reportedFor the lowly amphibian, the secret is its
> |]ability to get specialized cells to revert to blank slates that build up
a
> |]new limb from scratch...The magazine said scientists were working to set
> |]up a chain of events within mammals to favor regeneration over healing.
> |]They race against each other, said Dan Neufeld of the University of
South
> |]Dakota School of Medicine. I believe that, in humans, regeneration is an
> |]inherent ability. But we have such fast and effective wound healing, it
> |]always gets in first. The ability to grow a human arm or leg may be some
> |]way off but Ellen Heber-Katz, an immunologist at the Wistar Institute in
> |]Philadelphia, discovered that a suppressed immune system may give
> |]regeneration a fighting chance...Doros Platika, head of the Boston-based
> |]company Ontogeny, which has teamed up with the firm Stryker Biotech to
> |]market a genetically engineered drug that stimulates bone growth,
believes
> |]the human body retains the ability to build new parts properly. Platika
> |]also thinks new limbs could grow in weeks or months once the right
genetic
> |]keys are found and that human regeneration could start to happen within
> |]five years. It's an aggressive estimate, he said. But if you told people
> |]five years ago that we'd be able to clone sheep and cows, they wouldn't
> |]have believed that either."
> |]
> |]Dan
> |]
>
This showed up here at work on a spew list... though people would get a kick
out of it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (NeoJudas, K to Some)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
"You know 'K' ... and he let you come here???"
Message no. 2
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 20:10:38 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: J. Keith Henry (NeoJ) <neojudas@******************.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 8:28 PM
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?


>This showed up here at work on a spew list... though people would get a
kick
>out of it.
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
If I remember my high school boilogy (and lets face it, I probably don't),
this means that you can put a aural cells on your forehead and grow a wild
front ear.
sorry, too much MSG from two minute noodles.
Message no. 3
From: Fyre - AKA Colin fyre@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:40:16 +0100
I like this: No more getting an expensive clone limb! Just apply regen-
o-gel within an hour and watch that new limb grow! :)
DarkFyre
--
fyre@******.demon.co.uk
Message no. 4
From: Sinabian@***.com Sinabian@***.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:12:50 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/00 8:54:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
neojudas@******************.com writes:

<< suppressed immune system may give
> |]regeneration a fighting chance... >>


Does this sound like a bad idea to anybody else but me?!? Self-induced AIDS?
I think the gods had our immune system beat out our regen system for a reason
and we probably shouldn't be tampering with that...
Message no. 5
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:20:19 +0200
Sinabian@***.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/16/00 8:54:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> neojudas@******************.com writes:
>
> << suppressed immune system may give
> > |]regeneration a fighting chance... >>
>
> Does this sound like a bad idea to anybody else but me?!? Self-induced AIDS?
> I think the gods had our immune system beat out our regen system for a reason
> and we probably shouldn't be tampering with that...

Well, we suppress our immune systems all the time when we transplant organs...
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

"As a computer, I find your faith in technology to be quite amusing"
Message no. 6
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 01:00:26 +1000
Check out the current issue of New Scientist for a better version of the
story.

Annachie

----- Original Message -----
From: J. Keith Henry (NeoJ) <neojudas@******************.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 8:27 PM
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?


> ----- Original Message -----
> Subject: Re: Want a new Limb?
>
>
> > |]RESEARCHERS MAY GIVE HUMANS THE ABILITY TO REGENERATE LIMBS August 12,
> > |]2000
> > |]
> > |] Fox News reported: Humans could grow back lost limbs just like a newt
> if,
> > |]as some researchers believe, cells can be reminded how to regenerate,
> New
> > |]Scientist magazine reportedFor the lowly amphibian, the secret is its
> > |]ability to get specialized cells to revert to blank slates that build
up
> a
> > |]new limb from scratch...The magazine said scientists were working to
set
> > |]up a chain of events within mammals to favor regeneration over
healing.
> > |]They race against each other, said Dan Neufeld of the University of
> South
> > |]Dakota School of Medicine. I believe that, in humans, regeneration is
an
> > |]inherent ability. But we have such fast and effective wound healing,
it
> > |]always gets in first. The ability to grow a human arm or leg may be
some
> > |]way off but Ellen Heber-Katz, an immunologist at the Wistar Institute
in
> > |]Philadelphia, discovered that a suppressed immune system may give
> > |]regeneration a fighting chance...Doros Platika, head of the
Boston-based
> > |]company Ontogeny, which has teamed up with the firm Stryker Biotech to
> > |]market a genetically engineered drug that stimulates bone growth,
> believes
> > |]the human body retains the ability to build new parts properly.
Platika
> > |]also thinks new limbs could grow in weeks or months once the right
> genetic
> > |]keys are found and that human regeneration could start to happen
within
> > |]five years. It's an aggressive estimate, he said. But if you told
people
> > |]five years ago that we'd be able to clone sheep and cows, they
wouldn't
> > |]have believed that either."
> > |]
> > |]Dan
> > |]
> >
> This showed up here at work on a spew list... though people would get a
kick
> out of it.
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> J. Keith Henry (NeoJudas, K to Some)
> Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
> "You know 'K' ... and he let you come here???"
>
>
>
>
Message no. 7
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:27:19 -0700
Sinabian@***.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/16/00 8:54:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> neojudas@******************.com writes:
>
> << suppressed immune system may give
> > |]regeneration a fighting chance... >>
>
> Does this sound like a bad idea to anybody else but me?!? Self-induced AIDS?
> I think the gods had our immune system beat out our regen system for a reason
> and we probably shouldn't be tampering with that...

I think that if the gods hadn't intended us to figure stuff like this
out, they wouldn't have given us microscopes.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 8
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:54:18 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/00 3:28:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
xenya@********.com writes:

> I think that if the gods hadn't intended us to figure stuff like this
> out, they wouldn't have given us microscopes.
>

Two words: Frankenstein Complex.

There are some things man is NOT meant to do....

John
Message no. 9
From: caelric@****.com caelric@****.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:56:36 -0700
At 03:54 PM 8/16/00 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 8/16/00 3:28:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>xenya@********.com writes:
>
>> I think that if the gods hadn't intended us to figure stuff like this
>> out, they wouldn't have given us microscopes.
>>
>
> Two words: Frankenstein Complex.
>
> There are some things man is NOT meant to do....
>
>John
>


Really? Can you name them? Since I'm not meant to do them, I'd like to
try. Oh, and who exactly, is laying out these rules for what we are and
aren't meant to do?

Seriously, though, your attitude, if it is your real feelings on this
matter is sort of sad, because the same attitude is the cause of the
excommunication of Gallielo by the Church, the same attitude that has held
science and progress back throughout the centuries.

In my opinion, there are NO things man is not meant to know or do; some
things are just harder to figure out

Dave
Message no. 10
From: kawaii trunks@********.org
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:08:31 -0400
From: <caelric@****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?


> Really? Can you name them? Since I'm not meant to do them, I'd like to
> try. Oh, and who exactly, is laying out these rules for what we are and
> aren't meant to do?

I have one word for you: Rikishi.

This only really means something if you watch the WWF, tho. ;) That there is
something man was never meant to do. ;)

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 11
From: Yiannakos yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:05:02 -0400
caelric@****.com wrote:

> > There are some things man is NOT meant to do....
> >
> >John
> >
>
> Really? Can you name them? Since I'm not meant to do them, I'd like to
> try. Oh, and who exactly, is laying out these rules for what we are and
> aren't meant to do?

I can think of dozens of things that man is not _meant_ to do: walk on
the moon, fly through the upper atmosphere, break the sound barrier,
communicate instantly with someone on the other side of the world (hi
Doc!), survive underwater for longer than a few minutes, etc. etc...

But just because we're not _meant_ to do something, doesn't mean we
can't - or shouldn't.

> Dave

---Dave ('s not here man)
Message no. 12
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:27:29 -0700
DemonPenta@***.com wrote:
>
> There are some things man is NOT meant to do....

Right, certainly. This argument is so nebulous it could be applied to
anything (I've heard it applied to airplanes, computers, vacuum
cleaners, etc). Vague and dire comments that "man was NOT meant to do
this" are bunk. Now, if you have any concrete reasons *why* this sort of
thing is a bad idea, I'm sure we'd all like to read them.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 13
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:52:19 +0200
From caelric :

<snip>

> > There are some things man is NOT meant to do....
> >
> >John
>
> Really? Can you name them? Since I'm not meant to do them, I'd like to
> try. Oh, and who exactly, is laying out these rules for what we are and
> aren't meant to do?

IMHO, it's decided by the moral feelings of the mayority of
the society. Therefore the differences between countries (like the
feelings about guns in the US and for exampel in the UK or japan).

> Seriously, though, your attitude, if it is your real feelings on this
> matter is sort of sad, because the same attitude is the cause of the
> excommunication of Gallielo by the Church, the same attitude that has held
> science and progress back throughout the centuries.

I don't know if John meant it like that. Nothing changed when the
church stated that the world is _not_ a globe back then (ok, one could
say that they showed off their damn stupidity ;). But there will be
drastic changes when the genetic research will go further and further
with noone watching them.

> In my opinion, there are NO things man is not meant to know or do; some
> things are just harder to figure out

Just to counter this absolute position - murder, cannibalism,
genozide. So you really think mankind is supposed to do whatever it
wants to?

Arclight,
who isn't that sure if we should debate that on the list
Message no. 14
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:56:50 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/00 4:53:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
arclight@*********.de writes:

> > Really? Can you name them? Since I'm not meant to do them, I'd like to
> > try. Oh, and who exactly, is laying out these rules for what we are and
> > aren't meant to do?
>
> IMHO, it's decided by the moral feelings of the mayority of
> the society. Therefore the differences between countries (like the
> feelings about guns in the US and for exampel in the UK or japan).
>
> > Seriously, though, your attitude, if it is your real feelings on this
> > matter is sort of sad, because the same attitude is the cause of the
> > excommunication of Gallielo by the Church, the same attitude that has
held
> > science and progress back throughout the centuries.
>
> I don't know if John meant it like that. Nothing changed when the
> church stated that the world is _not_ a globe back then (ok, one could
> say that they showed off their damn stupidity ;). But there will be
> drastic changes when the genetic research will go further and further
> with noone watching them.
>
> > In my opinion, there are NO things man is not meant to know or do; some
> > things are just harder to figure out
>
> Just to counter this absolute position - murder, cannibalism,
> genozide. So you really think mankind is supposed to do whatever it
> wants to?


OK...I'm going to say this by stating, that, somewhat selfishly...They can
regenerate a new limb now off yer own body? Somebody regenerate my detached
retina first so I can actually live in this damn world, please.

John
Message no. 15
From: kawaii trunks@********.org
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:03:56 -0400
From: "Arclight" <arclight@*********.de>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 4:52 PM


>
> > In my opinion, there are NO things man is not meant to know or do; some
> > things are just harder to figure out
>
> Just to counter this absolute position - murder, cannibalism,
> genozide. So you really think mankind is supposed to do whatever it
> wants to?
>

Morality aside, what is *really* wrong with cannibalism? To bring this back
IC, think of this in terms of Ghouls. Ghouls *need* human flesh to survive.
How is the fact that they are hunting humans different than humans hunting
for food? :) I mean, if a bunch of cows got together and declared cow-eating
illegal, I wouldn't stop eating hamburgers. ;)

So, other than moral issues, what is wrong with cannibalism? ;) That's the
question for the day.

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 16
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:08:43 -0700
kawaii wrote:
>
> So, other than moral issues, what is wrong with cannibalism? ;) That's the
> question for the day.

Health issues. You can get fairly ill on a diet of human flesh. Ideally,
it should be extremely well-done. For all that effort, you might as well
eat beef or pork. :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 17
From: kawaii trunks@********.org
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:15:11 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 5:08 PM


>
>
> kawaii wrote:
> >
> > So, other than moral issues, what is wrong with cannibalism? ;) That's
the
> > question for the day.
>
> Health issues. You can get fairly ill on a diet of human flesh. Ideally,
> it should be extremely well-done. For all that effort, you might as well
> eat beef or pork. :-)
>

What about as a dietary supplement, like a side of leg or something? I am
not talking about a pure diet of human flesh, but including flesh along with
the rest of the food that one would normally eat.

That said, why? Is human flesh different than beef or pork, health-wise? If
a ghoul-poser(for whatever reason) was to eat a pure diet of human flesh,
perhaps as an initiation to be allowed to be "ghouled" and join a gang, what
would be some of the negative effects?

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 18
From: Sean Edwards edwars2@*******.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:27:07 EDT
<< suppressed immune system may give
> |]regeneration a fighting chance... >>


>Does this sound like a bad idea to anybody else but me?!? Self-induced
> >AIDS? I think the gods had our immune system beat out our regen system
> >for a reason and we probably shouldn't be tampering with that...

This is hardly self-induced AIDS... AIDS destroys your immune system while
this would only temporarily suppress it, just like during a transplant (as
was mentioned earlier). I haven't researched this stuff much, but I would
imagine that while waiting for the regeneration to occur the wound would
need to be kept extremely clean and would most likely require a great deal
of medical supervision. The chances of needing a normally acting immune
system in those conditions are quite low. The healing system beat out the
regen system simply because "in the wild" we would bleed to death and or die
from infection if the wound stayed open waiting for the regeneration to
occur.

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 19
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:48:10 -0400
Kawaii poked:
> Morality aside, what is *really* wrong with cannibalism? To bring
> this back
> IC, think of this in terms of Ghouls. Ghouls *need* human flesh
> to survive.
> How is the fact that they are hunting humans different than humans hunting
> for food? :) I mean, if a bunch of cows got together and declared
> cow-eating
> illegal, I wouldn't stop eating hamburgers. ;)
>
> So, other than moral issues, what is wrong with cannibalism? ;) That's the
> question for the day.

Great question!!!

The only reason that I can think of besides morality is disease
transference. If the disease source can survive the processing and
preparation (i.e. a rare human steak) you're in a really good position to
catch it. More so than say animal diseases I would think (but I'm not an
expert, just throwing out an opinion). Ummm... that and the prey defending
itself.

Incest is in the same category, we shun it because of the negative genetic
potential not because it is "wrong". No I do not have a sister :PPPP

I've met quite a few people that think that morals are "fixed" and are not
relatively subjective. I live (transplanted) in the bible belt in NC, while
not much a believer myself, I meet quite a few people that are strongly
christian and especially baptist. I work with a young guy who is a great
person, but he has never left the area and really thinks that his small
church is the only group that is "heaven bound". The idea that if he had
been born in another country, say China, that his beliefs might be
incredibly different has never even occurred to him.

;)

Smilin' Jack

Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 20
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 00:02:43 +0200
From kawaii :

<snip>

> That said, why? Is human flesh different than beef or pork,
> health-wise?

It gets poisenous (sp?) for a while when you die, IIRC
one of the most potent poisons existing.

Arclight
Message no. 21
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:43:28 -0700
kawaii wrote:
>
> What about as a dietary supplement, like a side of leg or something? I am
> not talking about a pure diet of human flesh, but including flesh along with
> the rest of the food that one would normally eat.

That's what I'm talking about - eating human flesh at all, regardless of
what you eat *with* it can give you prions and all sorts of other nasty
things. A prion called "kuru" comes to mind. Here's an url that should
shed some light on this lethal brain disease:
http://www.mtgplace.com/articles/m796.asp

> That said, why? Is human flesh different than beef or pork, health-wise? If
> a ghoul-poser(for whatever reason) was to eat a pure diet of human flesh,
> perhaps as an initiation to be allowed to be "ghouled" and join a gang,
what
> would be some of the negative effects?

Ghouls are, naturally, immune to such things. To a point - some of the
conditions of ghoul existence are not dissimilar from symptoms of "mad
cow disease" or kuru. :-) Just not lethal.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 22
From: Iridios iridios@********.net
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:16:31 -0400
caelric@****.com wrote:

<snip embers>

> In my opinion, there are NO things man is not meant to know or do; some
> things are just harder to figure out

If there are some things that we are not meant to know, how would we
know what we shouldn't know? Try this statement on for size, "There
are some things that Man is not ready for...". You could also replace
"ready" with "mature enough".


--
Iridios
--
If you're happy and you know it, clunk your chains.

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.xoom.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
10:09:58 PM/239:01:04 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 23
From: Phil pames@*****.net
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:19:22 -0500
At 05:15 PM 8/16/2000 -0400, Kawaii wrote:

>
>That said, why? Is human flesh different than beef or pork, health-wise? If
>a ghoul-poser(for whatever reason) was to eat a pure diet of human flesh,
>perhaps as an initiation to be allowed to be "ghouled" and join a gang, what
>would be some of the negative effects?
>
>Ever lovable and always scrappy,
>kawaii


There's a strong risk of diseases not associated with eating Pork or beef.
Kuru, for example. Our hypothetical ghoul poser would likely try to eat
brains <Because brains is what ghouls eat in the movies, durn it!> which
could result in him contracting Kuru, also known as the laughing sickness,
and normally only found among the woman and elderly of certain south seas
island tribes; they got the table scraps and leavings, which included
undercooked human brain matter, and resulted in convulsions and
uncontrollable laughing fits.

Phil
Message no. 24
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:47:22 +0200
kawaii wrote:
>
>
> So, other than moral issues, what is wrong with cannibalism? ;) That's the
> question for the day.
>

Honestly... of all the sick things, evil things that we as humans excel at, the only
that truly and thoroughly repels me, is cannibalism. Sure, paedophilia and torture get me
worked up, but I can read detailed accounts of them without wanting to vomit. Of course,
this doesn't answer your question, but there has to be a reason for such a strong
reaction...

--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

"As a computer, I find your faith in technology to be quite amusing"
Message no. 25
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:29:35 +0200
According to kawaii, at 17:03 on 16 Aug 00, the word on the street was...

> Morality aside, what is *really* wrong with cannibalism? To bring this back
> IC, think of this in terms of Ghouls. Ghouls *need* human flesh to survive.
> How is the fact that they are hunting humans different than humans hunting
> for food? :)

The thing here is that humans see themselves as the superior life form
(which is bogus, everyone should know insects are...) and so strongly
disagree with anyone who tries to do anything to them even close to what
they do to other species. Hunting deer is OK, hunting humans is not, but
if you ask someone (anyone) to give a rational explanation for it, guess
what you don't get? :)

> I mean, if a bunch of cows got together and declared cow-eating
> illegal, I wouldn't stop eating hamburgers. ;)

You would if the cows had developed the same tools we have for
implementing their collective will. You don't eat a hamburger when there's
a cow with an assault rifle standing there watching you (I know, comic
image, make the jokes already :) or if there's a major country full of
cows with nuclear weapons aimed at you.

Which is the basic problem for ghouls: there are a lot more humans than
there are ghouls, and those ghouls aren't very organized, for the most
part. This makes it easy for humans to stop ghouls from eating humans,
except if they (the ghouls) "go underground" and stay out of sight. Now if
all of, say, the CAS' population would be ghouls, the attitude in North
America would be a lot different, because declaring ghouls a wild animal
to be shot on sight would cause nothing but trouble with a major power in
the area.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: Iridios iridios@********.net
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 07:31:47 -0400
Allen Versfeld wrote:
>
> kawaii wrote:
> >
> >
> > So, other than moral issues, what is wrong with cannibalism? ;) That's the
> > question for the day.
> >
>
> Honestly... of all the sick things, evil things that we as humans
> excel at, the only that truly and thoroughly repels me, is
> cannibalism.

> ... Of
> course, this doesn't answer your question, but there has to be a
> reason for such a strong reaction...

Allergic? :P (j/k)

--
Iridios
--
"There's no such thing as an innocent user" (Dark Avenger, in a
Wired interview)

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.xoom.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
7:26:04 AM/62:03:00 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 27
From: Sinabian@***.com Sinabian@***.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:44:03 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/00 4:00:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, caelric@****.com
writes:

<< In my opinion, there are NO things man is not meant to know or do; some
things are just harder to figure out >>


::clears his throat:: Two words, if y'all don't mind. Hiroshima bomb. That's
right. Nukes boys and girls. Do you really think the gods wanted their
children casually flinging hot radioactive death at each other?!? Just
because you can do it, doesn't mean it should be done. "Your scientists were
so preoccupied with whether or not they could do it, that they never stopped
to think about whether or not they should." Or maybe they wanted us to have
nuclear energy but not to use they way we used it... Gotta be careful with
what you're playing with here!
Message no. 28
From: Sinabian@***.com Sinabian@***.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:48:13 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/00 4:29:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
xenya@********.com writes:

<< (I've heard it applied to airplanes, computers, vacuum
cleaners, etc) >>


::kablinks...looks again...kablinks...gets a migraine...kablinks again...::
Ummmm..... VACUUM CLEANERS?!?!?!? Somebody thought those were a BAD idea?!?
Message no. 29
From: Sinabian@***.com Sinabian@***.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:54:21 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/00 5:04:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
trunks@********.org writes:

<< So, other than moral issues, what is wrong with cannibalism? ;) That's the
question for the day. >>


Did I just read that question right?!?!?!? Geez...remind me not to say "Eat
me!" or "Bite me!" if I'm ever in your presence...
Message no. 30
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:07:17 -0600
kawaii wrote:

>That said, why? Is human flesh different than beef or pork, health-wise? If
>a ghoul-poser(for whatever reason) was to eat a pure diet of human flesh,
>perhaps as an initiation to be allowed to be "ghouled" and join a gang, what
>would be some of the negative effects?

Pork only a few (albiet deadly) dangers that have to be dealt with (can't
recall the name of the parasite that breeds in a pigs muscle, but will
breed in a person's brain if the parasite isn't killed during the cooking
process) that can cross between the two species if the pork is not prepared
properly.

With human flesh, just about *everything* can and will cross over.

Your immune system is constantly waging war with countless bacterial and
viral invaders. When you die, those bacteria have a field day. And the
virus's will get to multiply rapidly before their host cells die, and then
go dormant.

If you don't absolutely cook/prepare human flesh so as to remove/counter
those, the consumer will be at very high risk of contracting a disease of
some sort, because *every* bacteria/virus in the consumed flesh can cross
over to the consumer.

And then there are some diseases which a person can only contract from
eating the flesh of a fellow human (the laughing disease that was mentioned
in a previous post).

There was an interesting X-Files episode that dealt with this. Most of the
inhabitants of a midwest town took up the practice of eating human brains
as part of some ritual that was supposed to improve their crops or cattle
or something or another. They had the misfortune to eat one person's brain
that gave most of them a very rare brain disease that started driving them
insane. Yep, Fox and Mulder found themselves in a town of cannibals that
were slowly going insane.



To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Warm nights, good food, kindred spirits....great life!"
Message no. 31
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:00:07 +0200
Iridios wrote:
>
> Allen Versfeld wrote:
> > ... Of
> > course, this doesn't answer your question, but there has to be a
> > reason for such a strong reaction...
>
> Allergic? :P (j/k)

Um... just a minute *rustlerustle* let me check my character sheet... *rustle*
Yeah, severe allergy to human flesh, that's how I managed to afford that extra point for
my computer skill
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

"As a computer, I find your faith in technology to be quite amusing"
Message no. 32
From: kawaii trunks@********.org
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:46:20 -0400
From: "Arclight" <arclight@*********.de>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 6:02 PM


>
> From kawaii :
>
> <snip>
>
> > That said, why? Is human flesh different than beef or pork,
> > health-wise?
>
> It gets poisenous (sp?) for a while when you die, IIRC
> one of the most potent poisons existing.
>
> Arclight
>
>
Wow. Anyone thinking what I'm thinking? Can we say mass poisoning, ladies
and gents? ;) I knew we could. :)

Watch out, Yakuza! That sushi is getting a whole *NEW* flavor! ;)

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 33
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:21:28 -0700
Sinabian@***.com wrote:
>
> ::clears his throat:: Two words, if y'all don't mind. Hiroshima bomb. That's
> right. Nukes boys and girls. Do you really think the gods wanted their
> children casually flinging hot radioactive death at each other?!?

I automatically dismiss all arguments that use "god/s didn't intend X."

Or I say "if god/s didn't intend for humans to do this kind of stuff, we
wouldn't have free will."

Either way, I really don't like appeals to divine authority - they don't
make logical sense and usually ignore relevent aspects of an argument.
Like Hiroshima - Hiroshima and Nagasaki are nasty things, but I think
that a study of history will show that it may have been a more desirable
(not desirable as such) option than pushing conventional warfare into
Japan.

Those two bombs may have saved more lives than they took. In other
words, "this isn't a black and white matter."

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 34
From: caelric@****.com caelric@****.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:27:51 -0700
At 04:21 PM 8/17/00 -0700, Deid'Re wrote:
>
>
>Sinabian@***.com wrote:
>>
>> ::clears his throat:: Two words, if y'all don't mind. Hiroshima bomb.
That's
>> right. Nukes boys and girls. Do you really think the gods wanted their
>> children casually flinging hot radioactive death at each other?!?
>
>I automatically dismiss all arguments that use "god/s didn't intend X."
>
>Or I say "if god/s didn't intend for humans to do this kind of stuff, we
>wouldn't have free will."
>
>Either way, I really don't like appeals to divine authority - they don't
>make logical sense and usually ignore relevent aspects of an argument.
>Like Hiroshima - Hiroshima and Nagasaki are nasty things, but I think
>that a study of history will show that it may have been a more desirable
>(not desirable as such) option than pushing conventional warfare into
>Japan.
>
>Those two bombs may have saved more lives than they took. In other
>words, "this isn't a black and white matter."
>


Thanks, that is exactly what I wanted to say, but I never got around to it.

In addition to all the American servicemembers lives they saved, that would
have been lost if a conventional amphibious assault of Japan had taken
place (and yes, I know a good bit about this, being a US Marine, and well
versed on that part of history), you can not discount the innumerable
scientific advances that sprung directly and indirectly from nuclear
weaponry research, including , but not limited to Nuclear Magnetic
Resonance (more commonly know as magnetic resonance imaging, a major tool
used in diagnosing brain disease), and cancer radiation therapy, both of
which have saved many lives. There are many, many others.

Sinabian, if you feel that we were not meant to know these things, then why
don't you begin by researching all the technological advances that sprung
*directly* from nuclear weapons research and then not using a single one of
them? You can even not worry about the indirect advances from such. See
how much you are willing to keep that attitude once you have done so.


And, as Deid'Re so eloquently put, if we were not meant to know or do such,
then why exactly were we given both intelligence and free will? (Not that
I believe in such; as a listmember known as a_e put it, I am a soft atheist)


Dave
Message no. 35
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:16:02 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Deirdre M. Brooks <xenya@********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, August 18, 2000 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?


>
>
>Sinabian@***.com wrote:
>>
>> ::clears his throat:: Two words, if y'all don't mind. Hiroshima bomb.
That's
>> right. Nukes boys and girls. Do you really think the gods wanted their
>> children casually flinging hot radioactive death at each other?!?
>
>I automatically dismiss all arguments that use "god/s didn't intend X."
>
>Or I say "if god/s didn't intend for humans to do this kind of stuff, we
>wouldn't have free will."
>
>Either way, I really don't like appeals to divine authority - they don't
>make logical sense and usually ignore relevent aspects of an argument.
>Like Hiroshima - Hiroshima and Nagasaki are nasty things, but I think
>that a study of history will show that it may have been a more desirable
>(not desirable as such) option than pushing conventional warfare into
>Japan.
>
>Those two bombs may have saved more lives than they took. In other
>words, "this isn't a black and white matter."
>
>--
The Australian guy who worked on the bomb died recently, he went on record
as saying that he and many of the other scientists were pushing to have the
bomb explode out to sea or blow the top off Mt Fuji, minimising human
deaths, or at very least hitting a purely military target. There were plenty
of ways of showing the new weapon's might without killing so many civillians
just to get some shipyards. A war crime in the highest degree, but it was
the US so thats OK.
Mind you, since then, nukes have been the biggest tool of peace the world
has seen. Ironic, no?
Message no. 36
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:18:03 +1000
>kawaii wrote:
>>
>>
>> So, other than moral issues, what is wrong with cannibalism? ;) That's
the
>> question for the day.
>>
Has anyone seen that M&M's ad where the three chocolatre guys are sitting
around eating M&M's? Almost Monty Python in its humour. And it is just
disturbing :?)
Message no. 37
From: SyphonAC@***.com SyphonAC@***.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:14:35 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/00 7:22:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
xenya@********.com writes:

> Either way, I really don't like appeals to divine authority - they don't
> make logical sense and usually ignore relevent aspects of an argument.
> Like Hiroshima - Hiroshima and Nagasaki are nasty things, but I think
> that a study of history will show that it may have been a more desirable
> (not desirable as such) option than pushing conventional warfare into
> Japan.
>
> Those two bombs may have saved more lives than they took. In other
> words, "this isn't a black and white matter."
>

More American lives. Though I wasn't anywhere near alive at the time (I doubt
any of us were) I'm sure the Japanese didn't mind losing a ton of their
CIVILIANS to save some of their enemy's soldiers lives.....riiiiiight.....
The problem with your line of reasoning is this: soldiers die. That's part of
their job....fight to protect their country, and understand they may get
killed doing it. The civilians of Japan had little choice in what their
leadership did involving the war, and with our great American capacity for
understanding, we dropped a friggin sun on two of their cities.

Syphon
Message no. 38
From: SyphonAC@***.com SyphonAC@***.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:38:08 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/00 7:32:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, caelric@****.com
writes:

> And, as Deid'Re so eloquently put, if we were not meant to know or do such,
> then why exactly were we given both intelligence and free will? (Not that
> I believe in such; as a listmember known as a_e put it, I am a soft
atheist)
>
>
>
> Dave
Well that's the key, isn't it: whether or not one beileves in a higher
power...if one is an atheist, or a diehard believer in evoloution, then
humans evolved this much toted "intelligence and free will" by the same
process ducks evolved webbed feet. Regardless of how we came by our
sentience, the bottom line is pretty much what Sinabian got at with the line
from Jurassic Park....just becuase you can do something doesn't mean you shoul
d. I could get a knife and go out and kill someone, but that doens't mean
it's a good idea. And I hope none of you on this list are gonna sit there and
tell me cold-blooded murder isn't wrong.

And Dave, while I agree that many useful things came out of the process, you
can't discount that Einstien and Co. didn't sit around and say, let's build a
better way to diagnose brain disease. they were told to build a bomb that
could level a city. It's rather like inventing a sword to go kill someone you
don't like, but then finding out it slices cheese pretty good too, and using
that as a reason for killing the person. That's the problem: everyone wants
to achieve their goal as quickly as possible, and get the job done, but no
one wants to admit to or be held accountable for the side effects. Even if
those side effects are the deaths of many, many innocents.

Syphon
Message no. 39
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:25:42 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: SyphonAC@***.com <SyphonAC@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, August 18, 2000 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?


>In a message dated 8/17/00 7:32:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
caelric@****.com
>writes:
>
>> And, as Deid'Re so eloquently put, if we were not meant to know or do
such,
>> then why exactly were we given both intelligence and free will? (Not
that
>> I believe in such; as a listmember known as a_e put it, I am a soft
>atheist)
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave
>Well that's the key, isn't it: whether or not one beileves in a higher
>power...if one is an atheist, or a diehard believer in evoloution, then
>humans evolved this much toted "intelligence and free will" by the same
>process ducks evolved webbed feet. Regardless of how we came by our
>sentience, the bottom line is pretty much what Sinabian got at with the
line
>from Jurassic Park....just becuase you can do something doesn't mean you
shoul
>d. I could get a knife and go out and kill someone, but that doens't mean
>it's a good idea. And I hope none of you on this list are gonna sit there
and
>tell me cold-blooded murder isn't wrong.
>
>And Dave, while I agree that many useful things came out of the process,
you
>can't discount that Einstien and Co. didn't sit around and say, let's build
a
>better way to diagnose brain disease. they were told to build a bomb that
>could level a city. It's rather like inventing a sword to go kill someone
you
>don't like, but then finding out it slices cheese pretty good too, and
using
>that as a reason for killing the person. That's the problem: everyone wants
>to achieve their goal as quickly as possible, and get the job done, but no
>one wants to admit to or be held accountable for the side effects. Even if
>those side effects are the deaths of many, many innocents.
>
>Syphon
>

The Australian scientist that I talked about earlier considered hiself a war
criminal for his part in the bomb's creation. He didn't for a minute try to
justify it, beyond saying that at the time everyone was prepared to do
absolutely anything at the time to end the horror war. That was not an
excuse to him, but a reason why he aided in such evil.
Message no. 40
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@***.net
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:28:06 -0700
At 08:47 AM 8/17/00 +0200, Allen Versfeld wrote:

>kawaii wrote:
> >
> > So, other than moral issues, what is wrong with cannibalism? ;) That's the
> > question for the day.
>
>Honestly... of all the sick things, evil things that we as humans excel
>at, the only that truly and thoroughly repels me, is cannibalism. Sure,
>paedophilia and torture get me worked up, but I can read detailed accounts
>of them without wanting to vomit. Of course, this doesn't answer your
>question, but there has to be a reason for such a strong reaction...

Not to crap on your moral compass and go even further off-topic (as I
understand it's a very personal and subjective opinion), but please allow
me to shoot a few holes in that logic, IMHO.

Assuming that desperate times call for desperate measures, I could quite
easily overcome any moral objection I have to the practice of torture given
certain circumstances, i.e. to extract from a captured terrorist the
location of a ticking nuclear device hidden in a large metropolitan
area. Additionally, in a survival situation, like that rugby (or soccer)
team whose plane crashed in the Andes many years back, I could probably go
about a week without food before the corpses of my dead buddies started
looking pretty tasty. However, not by any stretch of my twisted
imagination can I envision the cascade of events that would have to occur
to cause me to even consider the molestation of children as an option.

Along the continuum of revolting human conduct, while torture and
cannibalism can be justified in the face of necessity, pedophilia can not.

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 41
From: caelric@****.com caelric@****.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:26:04 -0700
At 11:25 AM 8/18/00 +1000, Simon wrote:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: SyphonAC@***.com <SyphonAC@***.com>
>To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
>Date: Friday, August 18, 2000 11:38 AM
>Subject: Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?
>
>
>>Well that's the key, isn't it: whether or not one beileves in a higher
>>power...if one is an atheist, or a diehard believer in evoloution, then
>>humans evolved this much toted "intelligence and free will" by the same
>>process ducks evolved webbed feet. Regardless of how we came by our
>>sentience, the bottom line is pretty much what Sinabian got at with the
>line
>>from Jurassic Park....just becuase you can do something doesn't mean you
>shoul
>>d. I could get a knife and go out and kill someone, but that doens't mean
>>it's a good idea. And I hope none of you on this list are gonna sit there
>and
>>tell me cold-blooded murder isn't wrong.
>>

Some times, murder is right. For example, if you were somehow able to
travel back in time to 1935 and had a chance to murder Hitler, would you?

Or, for a more realistic situation, if you were walking through Central
Park in New York, and saw a man raping a woman, and you had a gun, would
you shoot him if he did not stop after you pointed the gun at him and
ordered him to stop? I would; granted, I am not like everyone, but there
are many people who feel that way. And it would be murder, yes. I still
would do so.


>>And Dave, while I agree that many useful things came out of the process,
>you
>>can't discount that Einstien and Co. didn't sit around and say, let's build
>a
>>better way to diagnose brain disease.

No, but if we stopped all weapons related research, we would be stopping an
awful lot of research, as that seems to be where the money goes. Also,
during times of war, technology makes large jumps.

>> they were told to build a bomb that
>>could level a city. It's rather like inventing a sword to go kill someone
>you
>>don't like, but then finding out it slices cheese pretty good too, and
>using
>>that as a reason for killing the person. That's the problem: everyone wants
>>to achieve their goal as quickly as possible, and get the job done, but no
>>one wants to admit to or be held accountable for the side effects. Even if
>>those side effects are the deaths of many, many innocents.
>>

Actually, I believe the USA did hold itself somewhat accountable for all
those deaths. The USA was a major help in rebuilding Japan after the war.
Now, I admit, it was not for altruistic reasons, but rather to create
another ally in the Pacific to hold back the USSR, but for whatever the
reason, it did happen.



>>Syphon
>>
>
>The Australian scientist that I talked about earlier considered hiself a war
>criminal for his part in the bomb's creation. He didn't for a minute try to
>justify it, beyond saying that at the time everyone was prepared to do
>absolutely anything at the time to end the horror war. That was not an
>excuse to him, but a reason why he aided in such evil.
>


Sometimes, the end justifies the means. At least in my book.

As for the comment about American lives someone else made. Yes, that is
true. However, estimates of the deaths of Hiroshima and Nagasaki range
from 100,000 to about 500,000. I would add some in there due to shortened
lives because of radiactive posioning that happened to many people.
Compared to the 1 to 1.5 million (thats 1,000,000 to 1,500,000 for those
who can't quite visualize those numbers) American lives that it was
estimated it would take to invade the Japanese homeland.

Finally, it must be added that America did not start the war. Certainly,
it helped promote it in some ways, and didn't do things that might have
helped hold back the war, but it did not start it. However, it did finish it.

So, after all that, I still think there is nothing that we are not meant to
know. An aspiring astrophysicist by trade, with a side profession of US
Marine, I hope to one day to solve, or help solve many of the secrets of
the universe, and I can tell you this: I will not let anyone tell me I am
not meant to know something.


Dave
Message no. 42
From: Iridios iridios@********.net
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:55:34 -0400
Simon and Fiona wrote:

> >Those two bombs may have saved more lives than they took. In other
> >words, "this isn't a black and white matter."
> >
> >--
> The Australian guy who worked on the bomb died recently, he went on record
> as saying that he and many of the other scientists were pushing to have the
> bomb explode out to sea or blow the top off Mt Fuji, minimising human
> deaths, or at very least hitting a purely military target. There were plenty
> of ways of showing the new weapon's might without killing so many civillians
> just to get some shipyards. A war crime in the highest degree, but it was
> the US so thats OK.

Uhhh... But (IIRC. Dave, let me know if I'm wrong here.) if a
conventional invasion had taken place most of the civilian population
would have been involved. Not as innocents either, instead they were
expected to help fight off the invaders. How many more civilian lives
would have been lost in that fashion?

Truman didn't even want to drop the bombs at all. But every
intelligence anylast predicted that the fight would be much bloodier
than Normandy. Then after the first bomb, the Japanese still were
resolute in their decision to fight.

--
Iridios
--
"There's no such thing as an innocent user" (Dark Avenger, in a
Wired interview)

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.xoom.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
10:46:27 PM/246:03:02 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 43
From: caelric@****.com caelric@****.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:44:07 -0700
At 10:55 PM 8/17/00 -0400, Iridios wrote:
>
>Uhhh... But (IIRC. Dave, let me know if I'm wrong here.) if a
>conventional invasion had taken place most of the civilian population
>would have been involved. Not as innocents either, instead they were
>expected to help fight off the invaders. How many more civilian lives
>would have been lost in that fashion?

Ah, yes, something I had forgot about. Certainly not every civillian would
have fought, but because of the Japanese culture at the time (and to some
point, still today), most of them would have, and were expected to. Not
that I blame them; I would fight back if America were invaded, even if I
happen to despise certain elements of the current government.


>Truman didn't even want to drop the bombs at all. But every
>intelligence anylast predicted that the fight would be much bloodier
>than Normandy. Then after the first bomb, the Japanese still were
>resolute in their decision to fight.
>

Well, at least the people in power were still resolute. I doubt many
people who had actually seen nuclear power in action still wanted to fight.
However, you are correct in that Japan did not surrender after the first
bomb, and it looked like they were not going to.

Like I said, in my book, sometimes the end justifies the means.


Dave
Message no. 44
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:33:37 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Iridios <iridios@********.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, August 18, 2000 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?


>Simon and Fiona wrote:
>
>> >Those two bombs may have saved more lives than they took. In other
>> >words, "this isn't a black and white matter."
>> >
>> >--
>> The Australian guy who worked on the bomb died recently, he went on
record
>> as saying that he and many of the other scientists were pushing to have
the
>> bomb explode out to sea or blow the top off Mt Fuji, minimising human
>> deaths, or at very least hitting a purely military target. There were
plenty
>> of ways of showing the new weapon's might without killing so many
civillians
>> just to get some shipyards. A war crime in the highest degree, but it was
>> the US so thats OK.
>
>Uhhh... But (IIRC. Dave, let me know if I'm wrong here.) if a
>conventional invasion had taken place most of the civilian population
>would have been involved. Not as innocents either, instead they were
>expected to help fight off the invaders. How many more civilian lives
>would have been lost in that fashion?
>
>Truman didn't even want to drop the bombs at all. But every
>intelligence anylast predicted that the fight would be much bloodier
>than Normandy. Then after the first bomb, the Japanese still were
>resolute in their decision to fight.
>
>--
Still, there were other targets that could have been hit first with just as
much effect. Fujiyama is like the heart of the nation, can you imagine the
psychological effect it would have had if they blew the top off it? That
tactic was used to subdue the Irish, they took the stone of Tara, where the
kings were crowned, and shipped it to England (It is now the Stone of
Scone). Since then there has never been a King or even a ruler of a unified
Ireland. (Never mind the drivel in the Tir NanOg sourcebook about Tara). The
wars aren't really equatable (nothing will stop some Irish from fighting
whoever gets close enough), but the symbolism is the same. In fact, from
what I know about Japan, the powers that be would have taken much more
notice of a tradition-bound mountain being blown up than they would have a
million peasants being vaporised.
Anyway, this is way off topic, I'd better stop posting :?)
Message no. 45
From: Iridios iridios@********.net
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:22:43 -0400
caelric@****.com wrote:
>
> At 11:25 AM 8/18/00 +1000, Simon wrote:
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: SyphonAC@***.com <SyphonAC@***.com>
> >To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
> >Date: Friday, August 18, 2000 11:38 AM
> >Subject: Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?
> >
> >
> >>Well that's the key, isn't it: whether or not one beileves in a higher
> >>power...if one is an atheist, or a diehard believer in evoloution, then
> >>humans evolved this much toted "intelligence and free will" by the
same
> >>process ducks evolved webbed feet. Regardless of how we came by our
> >>sentience, the bottom line is pretty much what Sinabian got at with the
> >line
> >>from Jurassic Park....just becuase you can do something doesn't mean you
> >shoul
> >>d. I could get a knife and go out and kill someone, but that doens't mean
> >>it's a good idea. And I hope none of you on this list are gonna sit there
> >and
> >>tell me cold-blooded murder isn't wrong.
> >>
>
> Some times, murder is right. For example, if you were somehow able to
> travel back in time to 1935 and had a chance to murder Hitler, would you?
>
> Or, for a more realistic situation, if you were walking through Central
> Park in New York, and saw a man raping a woman, and you had a gun, would
> you shoot him if he did not stop after you pointed the gun at him and
> ordered him to stop? I would; granted, I am not like everyone, but there
> are many people who feel that way. And it would be murder, yes. I still
> would do so.

I would phrase it like "Murder isn't right, but sometimes killing is
necessary." Certainly on one level it's murder but if there is enough
of a justification (self-defense, defense of others) it really isn't
classified as murder. Plus most people who would pull the trigger in
those situations are likely to accept the consequences of their
actions to some degree.


>
> No, but if we stopped all weapons related research, we would be stopping an
> awful lot of research, as that seems to be where the money goes. Also,
> during times of war, technology makes large jumps.

Adding to this, If you recalculate our approximate technological
growth without the war based jumps, we would be at a level somewhat
equivalant to the 1930's. IMO. War and the rumors of war has been
the major drive for advancement for more than 100 years. Certainly
no-one thought to build an atomic, city destroying, bomb during
peaceful times.


> So, after all that, I still think there is nothing that we are not meant to
> know. An aspiring astrophysicist by trade, with a side profession of US
> Marine, I hope to one day to solve, or help solve many of the secrets of
> the universe, and I can tell you this: I will not let anyone tell me I am
> not meant to know something.

Let me reassure you then. If there is something that we were truly
not meant to know, we won't even realize it because it will be
completely beyond our comprehension.

--
Iridios
--
Evolution is a harsh mistress.

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.xoom.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
11:06:27 PM/250:03:02 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 46
From: Iridios iridios@********.net
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:30:46 -0400
Simon and Fiona wrote:

> >Truman didn't even want to drop the bombs at all. But every
> >intelligence anylast predicted that the fight would be much bloodier
> >than Normandy. Then after the first bomb, the Japanese still were
> >resolute in their decision to fight.
> >
> >--
> Still, there were other targets that could have been hit first with just as
> much effect. Fujiyama is like the heart of the nation, can you imagine the
> psychological effect it would have had if they blew the top off it?

Ahhh. But at the time, the Emporer was revered as a god. If you want
a psychological effect, bomb him. Oh wait, that would've killed
civilians as well. (Sorry for the sarcasm, but it makes the point).

At least the targets chosen had some military value. Plus I believe
(without evidence) that it was the massive one-sided loss of life that
ultimately persuaded the Emporer to surrender.

> That
> tactic was used to subdue the Irish, they took the stone of Tara, where the
> kings were crowned, and shipped it to England (It is now the Stone of
> Scone). Since then there has never been a King or even a ruler of a unified
> Ireland.

The Irish are not Japanese. 'Nuff said.

> Anyway, this is way off topic, I'd better stop posting :?)

As I, but I'd still be willing to talk privately in anyone cares.

--
Iridios
--
God Is

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.xoom.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
11:21:27 PM/253:03:02 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 47
From: SyphonAC@***.com SyphonAC@***.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:19:52 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/00 10:31:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
caelric@****.com writes:

> Some times, murder is right. For example, if you were somehow able to
> travel back in time to 1935 and had a chance to murder Hitler, would you?
>
> Or, for a more realistic situation, if you were walking through Central
> Park in New York, and saw a man raping a woman, and you had a gun, would
> you shoot him if he did not stop after you pointed the gun at him and
> ordered him to stop? I would; granted, I am not like everyone, but there
> are many people who feel that way. And it would be murder, yes. I still
> would do so.
>
I knew someone would make a point like this and I agree with you, to a point,
but then I said cold blooded murder, not murder for some greater good. I mean
the kind of psycho, killing people just to watch them die, sick type of thing.

Syphon
Message no. 48
From: Bryan Pow powbr323@*******.otago.ac.nz
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:23:51 +1200
Okay eating human flesh CAN be bad, just like eating beef CAN be bad. A
case in point is mad cows disease, a disease that also exsists in humans.
Prions, proteins that cause other proteins to act strangely, are mainly to
blame, but other than that human flesh would be perfectly nutritious, it
does, after all, contain everything the human body needs (funny that).
While the risk of disease is greater with human flesh, this would be almost
completely nulified by cooking it properly.
My own personal problem with eating people is that apparently we taste
like pork (This is because humans and pigs are quite closely related, which
is why they are trying to grow human organs in pigs).....and I can't stand
the taste of pork.

Confusion to our enemies!!
Message no. 49
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@***.net
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:48:54 -0700
At 07:26 PM 8/17/00 -0700, Dave wrote:

>Or, for a more realistic situation, if you were walking through Central
>Park in New York, and saw a man raping a woman, and you had a gun, would
>you shoot him if he did not stop after you pointed the gun at him and
>ordered him to stop? I would; granted, I am not like everyone, but there
>are many people who feel that way. And it would be murder, yes. I still
>would do so.

Actually, that would probably in all likelihood not be considered
murder. Murder (at least in Anglo-American law) is generally defined as
the unlawful taking of a human life with malice aforethought. What you are
describing is clearly justifiable homicide in the eyes of the law, and
while the rapist is just as dead either way, there is an important legal
and moral distinction.

As a bonus prize, due to the "felony murder" statute on the books in most
US states, any death that occurs during the commission of certain felonies
is automatically considered 1st degree murder, and the responsibility for
the death falls upon the individual committing the felony. So, if you did
shoot and kill the aforementioned rapist, not only would it technically be
his own damn fault, but if you were to miss and accidentally kill the
female victim instead, her death would also be on the hands of the
rapist. Though you'd probably get smacked with reckless endangerment,
perhaps depraved indifference (manslaughter), and almost certainly a
weapons violation of some sort.

Bringing this back somewhat on topic: How strictly are PC's held
responsible (socially, legally, and in terms of Karma) for the consequences
of their actions in your world(s)? Given that justice, law, and morality
seldom all three align on the same side of any event or issue, what's a
poor shadowrunner to do?

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 50
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@***.net
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:53:55 -0700
At 11:30 PM 8/17/00 -0400, Iridios wrote:

>The Irish are not Japanese. 'Nuff said.

But I have heard Koreans referred to as the "Irish of the Orient."

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 51
From: Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 00 01:39:58 -0500
Replying to a few points here.


The concept that Humans were not meant to know/do anything is the most
idiotic anti technological statement I have ever heard in my life. It
requires a belief in a divine plan. Yet if there is a divine plan and the
creator of said plan is incapable of stopping a few puny humans from
blowing it all to hell by doing something that is seriously off that plan
then the plan and it's creator are irelivant as he is incapable of
bringing that plan to fruition. Therefore if Humans learn or do something
it is automatically part of that plan or irelivant to that plan and in
either case Humans were meant or at least allowed to do it.


As far as wether we should have Bombed Hiroshima or Nagasaki we can not
know that.

Some have suggested that we.....

"Blow the top off of some significant mountain" instead of hitting a
city. Are you aware of just how weak those bombs were? There would have
been a big boom and flash, all the trees would have been killed and not
one bit of damage would have been caused to the Mountain Proper, it was
hardly guaranteed to convince the Japaneese Government to surrender. Are
you aware that we had all of 2 Bombs at that point and it would be at
least another 6 months to a year before we could accumulate enough
Enriched Uranium or Plutonium to build more? That means if we did not get
them to surrender then the war would have dragged on for that much more
time at least, Hope many more Japaneese Civilians would have died in that
time?

Not Use them at all. Had they not been used the Japaneese Civilian
Casualties would have run into the 10's of millions with at least 1
million dead, not to mention the almost complete destruction of what
little infrastructure there was left in the country meaning that a few
million more would have starved or died of diseases like Disintery after
the war was over because supplies could not be brought to them. What do
you prefer 60,000 dead in 2 cities with maybe an equal number of dead
down the line from cancer and other radiation related illnesses or
4,000,000 dead. Note these numbers are just Japaneese Civilian
Casualties.


You can see Wilson had little choice but to Use them in the way he used
them. As for the assertion that it was a war crime, would the resident of
the nation out there which has never comitted a war crime please stand
up. No the delegation from Switzerland can sit down your people have
comitted quite a few before you retired from World politics. You Aussies
can sit down, your actions against the Aboriginal peoples of your country
during the 19th Century were every bit as much of a War Crime as what was
done to the North American Aboriginals a few years earlier. What no one
left? Not one person? Well then I guess we don't have anyone to cast that
first stone do we?

Oh yeah Who comitted more War crimes during WW2 the US or Japan? Don't
say the Japaneese people had no choice either, they could have rebelled
against their government at any time (I don't care if it was not part of
their culture) and chose not to because they believed their government
was right. Therefore they were just as guilty of the crimes their country
comitted as the soldiers who comitted them.
Message no. 52
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 16:38:50 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.net>
To: Shadowrun List <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, August 18, 2000 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?


>Replying to a few points here.
>
>
>The concept that Humans were not meant to know/do anything is the most
>idiotic anti technological statement I have ever heard in my life. It
>requires a belief in a divine plan. Yet if there is a divine plan and the
>creator of said plan is incapable of stopping a few puny humans from
>blowing it all to hell by doing something that is seriously off that plan
>then the plan and it's creator are irelivant as he is incapable of
>bringing that plan to fruition. Therefore if Humans learn or do something
>it is automatically part of that plan or irelivant to that plan and in
>either case Humans were meant or at least allowed to do it.
>

This is dangerously close to trolling, and anyway religion is rightly a
black subject here.

>
>As far as wether we should have Bombed Hiroshima or Nagasaki we can not
>know that.
>
>Some have suggested that we.....
>
> "Blow the top off of some significant mountain" instead of hitting a
>city. Are you aware of just how weak those bombs were? There would have
>been a big boom and flash, all the trees would have been killed and not
>one bit of damage would have been caused to the Mountain Proper, it was
>hardly guaranteed to convince the Japaneese Government to surrender. Are
>you aware that we had all of 2 Bombs at that point and it would be at
>least another 6 months to a year before we could accumulate enough
>Enriched Uranium or Plutonium to build more? That means if we did not get
>them to surrender then the war would have dragged on for that much more
>time at least, Hope many more Japaneese Civilians would have died in that
>time?
>
Not my idea, it was the idea of some of the scientists working on the bomb.
I'll assume that since they invented the thing, they'd have a good idea of
what it would do to a mountain.
Message no. 53
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 01:34:22 -0700 (PDT)
<snipt!(TM)>
> I can think of dozens of things that man is not
_meant_ to do: walk on the moon, fly through the upper
atmosphere, break the sound barrier, communicate
instantly with someone on the other side of the world
(hi Doc!), survive underwater for longer than a few
minutes, etc. etc...
> ---Dave ('s not here man)

Well...

The theory was sound, I guess.

Hi, D'snhm! :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
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Message no. 54
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 22:49:23 +1000
> > Those two bombs may have saved more lives than they took. In other
> > words, "this isn't a black and white matter."
> >
>
> More American lives. Though I wasn't anywhere near alive at the time (I
doubt
> any of us were) I'm sure the Japanese didn't mind losing a ton of their
> CIVILIANS to save some of their enemy's soldiers lives.....riiiiiight.....
> The problem with your line of reasoning is this: soldiers die. That's part
of
> their job....fight to protect their country, and understand they may get
> killed doing it. The civilians of Japan had little choice in what their
> leadership did involving the war, and with our great American capacity for
> understanding, we dropped a friggin sun on two of their cities.
>


Just wondering. With that comment before about wanting to drop the bomb on
Mt. Fuji, who here thinks that blowing the shitter out of Fujisan would end
the war?

It would be like declaring war on Italy, and then demolishing the Vatican to
end it.
Annachie
Message no. 55
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:01:45 -0700
SyphonAC@***.com wrote:
>
> More American lives. Though I wasn't anywhere near alive at the time (I doubt
> any of us were) I'm sure the Japanese didn't mind losing a ton of their
> CIVILIANS to save some of their enemy's soldiers lives.....riiiiiight.....

All I can say, beyond killfiling this thread after sending off this post
is: Read the history. I'm not saying it was a good thing, I'm saying it
was the lesser of the evils available.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 56
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: Fw: Want a new Limb?
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:05:49 -0700
Bryan Pow wrote:
>
> Okay eating human flesh CAN be bad, just like eating beef CAN be bad. A
> case in point is mad cows disease, a disease that also exsists in humans.
> Prions, proteins that cause other proteins to act strangely, are mainly to
> blame, but other than that human flesh would be perfectly nutritious, it
> does, after all, contain everything the human body needs (funny that).
> While the risk of disease is greater with human flesh, this would be almost
> completely nulified by cooking it properly.

Actually, "proper cooking" doesn't kill prions.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 57
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Want a new Limb?
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 23:31:03 -0500
on 8/17/00 8:38 PM, SyphonAC@***.com at SyphonAC@***.com e-scribed:

> Regardless of how we came by our
> sentience, the bottom line is pretty much what Sinabian got at with the line
> from Jurassic Park....just becuase you can do something doesn't mean you shoul
> d. I could get a knife and go out and kill someone, but that doens't mean
> it's a good idea. And I hope none of you on this list are gonna sit there and
> tell me cold-blooded murder isn't wrong.

Actually, if you're a Darwinist & consistent in your beliefs, murder is
completely justifiable. Survival of the fittest. The weak who can't defend
themselves *should* die. Same goes for being a darwinist & concerned about
protecting endangered species. Anyone see the inconsistencies there? Spear
the whales! They're not fittest if they can't survive!

Now before you call PETA on me, I'm not a Darwinist, so I believe in
protecting endangered species.

And BTW, it's true. Human meat *does* taste like pork, and the secret is
*canning*. I used to work in Ed Guine's neighborhood, and he used to give
gifts of canned meat to his neighbors. Nice guy. BTW, he was *dead* before I
got there, so I wasn't one of the recipients, thank God!

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 58
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Want a new Limb?
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:42:27 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Gryphon <webmaster@*********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Monday, August 21, 2000 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: Want a new Limb?


>on 8/17/00 8:38 PM, SyphonAC@***.com at SyphonAC@***.com e-scribed:
>
>> Regardless of how we came by our
>> sentience, the bottom line is pretty much what Sinabian got at with the
line
>> from Jurassic Park....just becuase you can do something doesn't mean you
shoul
>> d. I could get a knife and go out and kill someone, but that doens't mean
>> it's a good idea. And I hope none of you on this list are gonna sit there
and
>> tell me cold-blooded murder isn't wrong.
>
>Actually, if you're a Darwinist & consistent in your beliefs, murder is
>completely justifiable. Survival of the fittest. The weak who can't defend
>themselves *should* die. Same goes for being a darwinist & concerned about
>protecting endangered species. Anyone see the inconsistencies there? Spear
>the whales! They're not fittest if they can't survive!
>


What you're thinking of is anarchists, but it's a common mistake made since
the very first review on Origin of the Species. You see, when Darwin said
"Survival of the fittest", it did not mean "Survival of the
strongest". This
is why there are no mastodons and mammoths around any more, but there are
elephants. They're smaller and weaker, but they are more fit to survive in
their environment. Dawinism does not condone murder because it is part of
the makeup of humanity that we are social animals with an averion to killing
members of our own social group. We are more fit to survive than Homo
Sapiens Horrormoviestarus, who, since they didn't care about social bonds,
all killed eachother so there'd be more food, and the last one died
childless but very well fed.
Add to that, whales are fit to be protected because they are majestic,
awe-inspiring, and their pictures make good t-shirts. Meanwhile we
constantly try to eradicate malaria mosquitoes, which are small, ugly, and
annoying. Whales did not evolve to look good as an airbrush over tie-die,
but they are now filling that ecological niche and surviving because of it
:?)

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