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Message no. 1
From: Neil Smith <NSMITH@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Wards
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:52:46 GMT
Following the discussion on the ineffectiveness of wards in bursting
spell locks, why not change the damage codes of wards? Where damage
codes for astral barriers is listed (in SR2), the only barriers are
hermetic circles or medicine lodges, which do L damage. When
creating a ward, the magician takes L drain (as specified in the
Grimything).

Why not allow wards of different damage codes, with the corresponding
drain code when creating it? For instance, if a magician wants to
create a ward that does 4S damage, then they should take (4 * days)S
drain when doing it.

This might be combined with upping the cost of the materials by a
multiplier based on the damage code (L = *1, M = *2, etc). So the 4S
ward will cost 4 * 1000 * 3 = 12,000 nuyen.

Comments?

Neil.
Message no. 2
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Wards
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 01:54:43 +1000
Neil Smith writes:

> Why not allow wards of different damage codes, with the corresponding
> drain code when creating it? For instance, if a magician wants to
> create a ward that does 4S damage, then they should take (4 * days)S
> drain when doing it.
>
> This might be combined with upping the cost of the materials by a
> multiplier based on the damage code (L = *1, M = *2, etc). So the 4S
> ward will cost 4 * 1000 * 3 = 12,000 nuyen.

Sounds like a good enough idea to me, though it makes a Serious level ward
something _really_ nasty on the astral. But this could be used to good
effect <evil GM grin>.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Wards
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 11:51:03 +0100
>Following the discussion on the ineffectiveness of wards in bursting
>spell locks, why not change the damage codes of wards?

[snip]

>Comments?

Sounds like a good idea. The way it currently is, no self-respecting ward
can even scratch a spell lock, so this would make them a lot nastier.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't belong in this world or the next one
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Message no. 4
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wards
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 18:03:18 -0500
Isn't there a resisted success test to pass a ward? Isn't it something
like magic(for a magic user) vs. the ward rating? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Matt 'Comatose Raspberry' Hufstetler
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt2778a
Internet: gt2778a@*****.gatech.edu
Message no. 5
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Wards
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 14:18:07 +1000
Matt Hufstetler writes:

> Isn't there a resisted success test to pass a ward? Isn't it something
> like magic(for a magic user) vs. the ward rating? Correct me if I'm wrong.

No, you're probably thinking of the test to create a ward. To pass through a
ward requires the ward to be destroyed first. The presence (I say 'presence'
because spirits/foci/spells etc are also included) attempting to pass
through the ward must engage the ward in astral combat first. Only when the
ward has been destroyed may the attacker pass through.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Wards
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 10:22:00 +0100
>Isn't there a resisted success test to pass a ward? Isn't it something
>like magic(for a magic user) vs. the ward rating? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think (not having looked it up) that a ward would only attempt to stop an
astrally perceiving or projecting magician. If he isn't involved in astral
business, the ward lets him pass. How about a masked focus, BTW? The ward
probably won't notice it, right?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
<te huur: 1 lege regel (opschrift naar keuze), hier te bezichtigen.>
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Message no. 7
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Wards
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 19:28:53 +1000
Gurth writes:

> I think (not having looked it up) that a ward would only attempt to stop an
> astrally perceiving or projecting magician. If he isn't involved in astral
> business, the ward lets him pass. How about a masked focus, BTW? The ward
> probably won't notice it, right?

The Masking ability allows a magician to appear as a mundane (or a
non-initiate) when assensed. I think this only covers intelligent opponents,
ie those who can assense. Wards do not need to assense, they will still
block the focus, because it still has an astral presence. Think of Masking
as an invisibility spell for foci. An invisible human cannot pass through a
wall (a physical barrier), nor can an 'invisible' (Masked) focus pass
through a ward (an astral barrier). A magician could not target the focus,
even if he knew it was there, because he cannot actually see it.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 8
From: Thomas R Gillette <ShadowG@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Wards
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 15:59:32 -0400
To Adam, that Guru Extrodinaire


So I guess what you are saying is that If 4 mages spent all thier time on the
ward ONLY they could easily keep up a level 12 Ward without a problem.

Also, what would those that wanted to take down the ward do? Would they enter
into combat with the ward? So the mage that tried to take down the ward of
level twelve would roll dice equal to his magic, against the force of the
ward, while the ward would roll dice equal to its force against the mage.
Then whomever got the most successes would get to reduce the power of the
other by the number of extra successes. Or is there another way

Can mundanes walk across the ward that it does not exist? What happens of a
mage with a level 1 or 2 foci tries to walk (physically) through such a ward?
Would it stop him from entering the protected area? Or would it
destroy/disable the foci. Or is there no effect other than to keep spells
from being cast into the ward, and stop traveling astrally into the complex?

(any help on this is appreciated, I have not run alot of mages into a heavily
protected area like this before)
Message no. 9
From: Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Wards
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 18:14:55 -0400
On Mon, 3 Apr 1995, Thomas R Gillette wrote:

> To Adam, that Guru Extrodinaire
>
>
> So I guess what you are saying is that If 4 mages spent all thier time on=
the
> ward ONLY they could easily keep up a level 12 Ward without a problem.
>
> Also, what would those that wanted to take down the ward do? Would they e=
nter
> into combat with the ward? So the mage that tried to take down the ward o=
f
> level twelve would roll dice equal to his magic, against the force of the
> ward, while the ward would roll dice equal to its force against the mage.
> Then whomever got the most successes would get to reduce the power of the
> other by the number of extra successes. Or is there another way

I think I remember a novel, one of the secrets of power novel, when
the shaman forces open a barrier somewhere in Australia. The description
of this feat whas the anti-thesis of a fight between the shaman and the
ward. If I remember correctly he sat down and slowly worked on the ward,
unraveling it's threads. So I guess it could be possible to devellop a
way to pass wards without fighting them, but that it would maybe take
hours to do it, time during which the creator of the ward could(or
alternatively would not) know that someone is tampering with his ward!
Also I'd like to see a way for a mage to slip through a ward, only
himself, without destroying the ward or sending warning to the creator.
Anybody ever done this?

> Can mundanes walk across the ward that it does not exist? What happens of=
a
> mage with a level 1 or 2 foci tries to walk (physically) through such a w=
ard?
> Would it stop him from entering the protected area? Or would it
> destroy/disable the foci. Or is there no effect other than to keep spells
> from being cast into the ward, and stop traveling astrally into the compl=
ex?

I'd say if the any foci is active when the character tries to
cross the ward from the physical world, he get stopped. I do not think
the ward would destroy the focus since it was not attacked per see and
ward only counter-attack to defend thmeselves. Otherwise, everything
passes through.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! --=
-
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a --=
-
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a Cý =
---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca --=
-
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
Message no. 10
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wards
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 17:23:22 -0700
On Mon, 3 Apr 1995, Thomas R Gillette wrote:

> To Adam, that Guru Extrodinaire

Ack! Don't call me that! ;-)

> So I guess what you are saying is that If 4 mages spent all thier time on the
> ward ONLY they could easily keep up a level 12 Ward without a problem.

I'm not sure if I said what you thought I said ... perhaps you were
replying to someone else ...?

> Also, what would those that wanted to take down the ward do? Would they enter
> into combat with the ward? So the mage that tried to take down the ward of
> level twelve would roll dice equal to his magic, against the force of the
> ward, while the ward would roll dice equal to its force against the mage.
> Then whomever got the most successes would get to reduce the power of the
> other by the number of extra successes. Or is there another way

That's correct. However, I prefer layered defenses so I often have
anchored spells linked to wards. The nice thing about a ward is the
maker(s) always know when it is under attack. With a clever bit of spell
weaving, you can have all sorts of nasty anchored triggerings such as
Decrease Willpower -4 coupled with Manablast, critterform or worse. As
they just try to bull their way through they'll get hosed.

> Can mundanes walk across the ward that it does not exist? What happens of a

Sure, mundanes have no troubles with wards (though they probably will
have troubles with the anchored spells). I just happen to like the look
on people with umpteen million force 1 spell locks when they hit a ward
... such exquisite terror and loss ;-)

> mage with a level 1 or 2 foci tries to walk (physically) through such a ward?
> Would it stop him from entering the protected area? Or would it

He could not walk through the ward without defeating it in astral
combat. His foci would enter astral combat immediately as they fight
"blind and dumb" when provoked with a stimulus.

> (any help on this is appreciated, I have not run alot of mages into a heavily
> protected area like this before)

All sorts of interesting ways to hose ... er, provide a challenge
to your players.

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/getchell.html
Message no. 11
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Wards
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 20:59:59 +1000
Thomas R Gillette writes:

> Also, what would those that wanted to take down the ward do? Would they
> enter into combat with the ward? So the mage that tried to take down the
> ward of level twelve would roll dice equal to his magic, against the force
> of the ward, while the ward would roll dice equal to its force against the
> mage. Then whomever got the most successes would get to reduce the power of
> the other by the number of extra successes. Or is there another way

Yep, as far as the rules go, the only way to get rid of a ward is beat it up
in astral combat. But to do this, the attacking magician makes an astral
combat attack (which uses Sorcery, or Unarmed, or Armed if he has a weapon
focus), not his Magic Attribute. And the damage resulting is applied to the
damage track of the one who ends up worse off.

> Can mundanes walk across the ward that it does not exist?

A ward will only effect astral presences, so mundanes (as long as they have
no active spell locks or quickened/sustained spells) can cross them without
even knowing the ward is there.

> What happens of a mage with a level 1 or 2 foci tries to walk (physically)
> through such a ward? Would it stop him from entering the protected area? Or
> would it destroy/disable the foci. Or is there no effect other than to keep
> spells from being cast into the ward, and stop traveling astrally into the
> complex?

Since the focus is active (I assume it is), then it has an astral presence,
so the ward will attack it. The magician could not pass until either the
ward or the focus was destroyed/turned off. (Note that this makes for a bit
of an odd thought, how does something with no pshycial presence (the ward)
stop the magician from passing? It blocks the astral form of the focus,
sure, and until the focus is destroyed the focus canot pass, but it seems
kinda like a stretch to me that it would also apply to the magician
holding/wearing the focus. Hmm, dual creatures would be unable to pass
through wards, right?)

-----------------------
Matt Hufstetler writes:

> I've been mulling over the rules for wards, and decided they suck.
> That whole damaging buisness doesn't sound right. It sounds right when a
> astrally active being tries to cross the ward. But wouldn't it make more
> sense to do an opposed force test between the other things? Reducing the
> rating by the extra successes? That would make them a lot more effective.

It would, yes. I don't really know why FASA suddenly decided in the
Grimything II to give inanimate objects like wards and foci damage tracks.
The Force/Rating reduction system used in the basic rules seemed much easier
and simpler to me too. As it is you need a ward of at least rating 6 to have
a chance of killing an focus, since the moment the focus undergoes an attack
(and takes, say a serious wound), the magician can simply not move through
the ward, and the foucs instantly "re-heals" its damage (see the
Grimything). It's kinda silly if you ask me, it makes low power wards a lot
les useful (although they still prohibit you entering unless you deactiavte
the focus I guess).

--------------------
Menard Steve writes:

> [Stealthy anit-ward techniques]
> Anybody ever done this?

Nope, but it certainly sounds like a good idea to me. Do you have any
thoughts? Because as it is, the only way to get past a ward is to bash the
crap out of it, which is not really stealthy at all. But also notice that
Sams method of getting through the barrier (it was a barrier, not a ward)
could easily be interpreted as the initiate ability of Dispelling. But I
still think you have a good idea.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 12
From: Louis Barrera <lbarrera@****.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Wards -Reply
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:51:07 -0700
Damion (etc, etc, etc) writes:
>It would, yes. I don't really know why FASA suddenly decided in the
>Grimything II to give inanimate objects like wards and foci damage
>tracks.
>The Force/Rating reduction system used in the basic rules seemed
>much easier and simpler to me too. As it is you need a ward of at least
>rating 6 to have a chance of killing an focus, since the moment the
>focus undergoes an attack
>(and takes, say a serious wound), the magician can simply not move
>through the ward, and the foucs instantly "re-heals" its damage (see
>the
>Grimything). It's kinda silly if you ask me, it makes low power wards a
>lot les useful (although they still prohibit you entering unless you
>deactiavte the focus I guess).

The only point I can see is that it gives the unknowing mage a chance to
save the item in question. If unknowingly, a mage with a spell lock
attempts to cross a ward, it doesn't immediately trash the lock, unless it
is at least Rating 8 (it needs eight net sucesses to "kill" the item.) The
mage cannot continue through the ward without getting eight net
sucesses either. And the item won't go thru until the combat is resolved,
reguardless of whether the bearer makes it. The game effect is like
moving thru water, it slows down the individual.

Lou - TANSTAAFL
Message no. 13
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Wards -Reply
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 21:24:16 +1000
Louis Barrera writes:

> The only point I can see is that it gives the unknowing mage a chance to
> save the item in question. If unknowingly, a mage with a spell lock
> attempts to cross a ward, it doesn't immediately trash the lock, unless it
> is at least Rating 8 (it needs eight net sucesses to "kill" the item.) The
> mage cannot continue through the ward without getting eight net
> sucesses either. And the item won't go thru until the combat is resolved,
> reguardless of whether the bearer makes it. The game effect is like
> moving thru water, it slows down the individual.

Yeah, that's true (BTW, it is only 6 successes, since wards do Light damage,
2 sucesses takes it to Moderate, 4 to Serious and 6 to Deadly). But wards
are especially useful for clearing out those spell locked Increase Attribute
spells the magicians lock onto the whole team (well, close enough to it),
and it is kinda poor that you need a quite grunty ward to do this (like
level 6+). But, wards still protect areas from astral intrusion very nicely,
even if they aren't foci mashing machines. And it does mean that the
magician needs to deactivate any foci before he can pass through a warded
area, or he needs to kill the ward if he has quickened spells - which alerts
the maker and well, bad things tend to happen then.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 14
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Wards
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 13:18:48 +1000
Gurth writes:

> If you ward your car, simply put the ward on it so you have a few meters to
> walk around it -- you can order food from drive-ins, and even get out of the
> car to put money in the parking meter :)

Don't you actually have to ward the area "physically" where you want the
astral barrier to be. Like, I place a ward 3m around my car on all sides,
then jump in and drive away...the ward stays at the place I put it - 3m
aroudn my car. Yep, but it stays 3m around my car _back_ where I made it,
because it isn't attached in any way to the vehicle. See what I mean? I
thought you warded a particular bit of the physical plane, and a an astral
barrier was created in that location. If you happened to ward a mobile bit
of the physical plane, then you can move your ward. I don't think wards are
"centered" on any particular position, they are exactly where they are
placed. So I don't think it'd be possible to do what you suggested.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 15
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Wards
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 13:54:36 +0930
Damion Milliken wrote:
>
> Gurth writes:
>
> > If you ward your car, simply put the ward on it so you have a few meters to
> > walk around it -- you can order food from drive-ins, and even get out of the
> > car to put money in the parking meter :)
>
> Don't you actually have to ward the area "physically" where you want the
> astral barrier to be. Like, I place a ward 3m around my car on all sides,
> then jump in and drive away...the ward stays at the place I put it - 3m
> aroudn my car. Yep, but it stays 3m around my car _back_ where I made it,
> because it isn't attached in any way to the vehicle.

Yeah... the solution, of course, is to forget about the few meters around
the car, and just place the ward ON the car... Hmm, might want a campervan,
though, with all the extras (especially the toiletries... don't want to get
caught with your pants down, if you know what I mean).

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Wards
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 10:50:28 +0200
>Don't you actually have to ward the area "physically" where you want the
>astral barrier to be. Like, I place a ward 3m around my car on all sides,
>then jump in and drive away...the ward stays at the place I put it - 3m
>aroudn my car. Yep, but it stays 3m around my car _back_ where I made it,
>because it isn't attached in any way to the vehicle. See what I mean? I

Whatever you say :) I tend to talk a lot without looking in the rulebook
quite as much, you appear to do both equally much (and have the books
virtually memorized :) so I'll go with this. It was just a thought... maybe
a wishful one :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tijd voor een andere tekst...
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Message no. 17
From: westiex@*****.com (Craig West)
Subject: Wards
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 23:43:09 +1000
I've a question for all of those who know a bit about one of a mage's
banes - wards.

During discussion, a couple of questions have come up in regards to
mages entering wards. There's no exact canon ruling that we've been able
to settle on, so I thought I'd put the question to more knowledgable then I.

A couple of things that we've established -
A) Mundanes have no problems with wards.
B) A mage with no spells or foci active and isn't astrally percieving
doesn't have problems with wards.
C) Similar for adepts - as long as they have no spells going, a ward
doesn't inconvience them much.

A few questions have come up though -
D) What happens if a mage has a spell active on himself or another party
member at the time they through a ward?
E) A mage with a active foci cannot pass through a ward. What constitues
an active focus? (We've agreed that a sustaining spell focus is active
when its holding a spell, what about when its not?)

Craig.
Message no. 18
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Wards
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:56:12 +0200
According to Craig West, on 13-4-07 15:43 the word on the street was...

> C) Similar for adepts - as long as they have no spells going, a ward
> doesn't inconvience them much.

Unless they are astrally perceiving :)

> D) What happens if a mage has a spell active on himself or another party
> member at the time they through a ward?

The spell stops working -- see page 83 of MITS; this might be covered in
Street Magic for SR4, but I don't own that book so I can't check.

> E) A mage with a active foci cannot pass through a ward. What constitues
> an active focus? (We've agreed that a sustaining spell focus is active
> when its holding a spell, what about when its not?)

An active focus is a focus that has been activated (by spending a Simple
or Complex Action depending on the focus type, p. 190, SR3 or p. 191,
SR4). When such an item is pushed or pulled through a barrier, you make
a Force Test for the item and the barrier; the winner, well, wins :)
(See p. 83 of MITS again, or pp. 185-186 of SR4.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wij komen van Ertvelde.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 19
From: weberm@*******.net (Michael Weber)
Subject: Wards
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:59:19 -0400
Craig West <westiex@*****.com> wrote:

>During discussion, a couple of questions have come up in regards to
>mages entering wards. There's no exact canon ruling that we've been able
>to settle on, so I thought I'd put the question to more knowledgable then I.
>
>A couple of things that we've established -
>A) Mundanes have no problems with wards.
>B) A mage with no spells or foci active and isn't astrally percieving
>doesn't have problems with wards.
>C) Similar for adepts - as long as they have no spells going, a ward
>doesn't inconvience them much.
>
>A few questions have come up though -
>D) What happens if a mage has a spell active on himself or another party
>member at the time they through a ward?
>E) A mage with a active foci cannot pass through a ward. What constitues
>an active focus? (We've agreed that a sustaining spell focus is active
>when its holding a spell, what about when its not?)

It depends on which edition you play, but IIRC, in 2nd, the focus has to fight
the ward or be destroyed. I think in 3rd edition the focus merely turns off.
No clue what happens in 4th edition.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Wards, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!