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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Wed Jan 30 08:00:11 2002
Bira writes:

> I always say wards take the shape of whatever space you're
> warding. A ward on an apartment takes the exact shape of the apartment
> (kinda cubic :)). A ward on an open space would take the shape of a dome.

I'm a little more anal than you, even, Bira. I _only_ allow wards to take
the form of whatever they're placed on.

This is because, by the rules, it's possible to ward a small object (like a
bullet) with a ward of any arbitrary size up to the amount you are capable
of warding. There are just too many problems associated with 12 meter radius
mobile spheres of warded volume, especially ones travelling at Mach 1.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Wed Jan 30 10:30:01 2002
Damion and Bira,

>> I always say wards take the shape of whatever space you're
>>warding. A ward on an apartment takes the exact shape of the apartment
>>(kinda cubic :)). A ward on an open space would take the shape of a dome.


That's kinda logical, I suppose. But In astral space would it really
make sense? I suppose the walls might have some kind of astral form,
but they would be shadowy and intangible. Since an astral figure can
pass through a wall why would the ward take the form of the area?

There is still a large gap in my understanding of the rules, I think.
It's still not really clear to me whether mundane objects have have form
or shape in the astral plane. You see, the sentence about non-magical
objects have no auras in the astral plane still causes me fits of
convulsion when I consider that there are other (to me) ambiguous
statements regarding the intangibility of things in the astral. Would
anyone care to explain to me if/why a wall (or other object) is opaque
in the astral world?


> This is because, by the rules, it's possible to ward a small object (like a
> bullet) with a ward of any arbitrary size up to the amount you are capable
> of warding. There are just too many problems associated with 12 meter radius
> mobile spheres of warded volume, especially ones travelling at Mach 1.


I agree with your first statement, for sure. I would imagine the ward
can only be a maximum size of magic rating *50 in cubic meters. Minimum
size would be whatever you choose I would imagine (the only caveat being
you have to see it, I guess, in keeping with the magic rules).

To take issue with your second statement however, I was under the
impression wards were static and couldn't be moved. (Although that
makes me curious to think whether there's wind or drag in the astral plane.)

Xian.
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Wed Jan 30 18:45:03 2002
On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:05:19 +1100
Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au> wrote:

> Bira writes:
>
> > I always say wards take the shape of whatever space you're
> > warding. A ward on an apartment takes the exact shape of the apartment
> > (kinda cubic :)). A ward on an open space would take the shape of a dome.
>
> I'm a little more anal than you, even, Bira. I _only_ allow wards to take
> the form of whatever they're placed on.
>
> This is because, by the rules, it's possible to ward a small object (like a
> bullet) with a ward of any arbitrary size up to the amount you are capable
> of warding. There are just too many problems associated with 12 meter radius
> mobile spheres of warded volume, especially ones travelling at Mach 1.

I didn't read the rules that closely (shame on me, I guess :)),
but I guess these problems mostly go away if you say you can only ward
_places_, not objects. That's how it's done on most literature. That
leaves only warded trailers, but they're not that dangerous, or common :).

--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Wed Jan 30 18:45:10 2002
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 15:37:46 +0000
Christian Casavant <christian@********.org> wrote:

> Damion and Bira,
>
> >> I always say wards take the shape of whatever space you're
> >>warding. A ward on an apartment takes the exact shape of the apartment
> >>(kinda cubic :)). A ward on an open space would take the shape of a dome.
>
>
> That's kinda logical, I suppose. But In astral space would it really
> make sense? I suppose the walls might have some kind of astral form,
> but they would be shadowy and intangible. Since an astral figure can
> pass through a wall why would the ward take the form of the area?

It's the concept on the magician's mind that counts. If I'm
warding my apartment, I see it as delimited by walls, and I want nothing
to come through them. Besides, I don't want to bother my neighbors by
spilling my ward into their space :).

> There is still a large gap in my understanding of the rules, I think.
> It's still not really clear to me whether mundane objects have have form
> or shape in the astral plane. You see, the sentence about non-magical
> objects have no auras in the astral plane still causes me fits of
> convulsion when I consider that there are other (to me) ambiguous
> statements regarding the intangibility of things in the astral. Would
> anyone care to explain to me if/why a wall (or other object) is opaque
> in the astral world?

They have reflections on the astral plane, reflections that are
not actual auras. You can see them, but you cannot affect each other in
any way. That's why you can go through walls and other nonliving things.

Living things do have auras, but most of the time these auras
are not actually present on the astral plane, and that's why you can go
through them too. If you go through a living thing, though, there's a
chance they'll get a weird sensation :).

Astrally active auras (spirits, perceiving or projecting
magicians, wards, etc.) are actually present on the astral, and so you
cannot go through them. You affect each other normally.

--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Wed Jan 30 21:20:01 2002
Christian Casavant writes:

> To take issue with your second statement however, I was under the
> impression wards were static and couldn't be moved.

The rules for wards in SR3 (p 174) specifically provide "vehicles" as an
example of something that can be warded. So I'm pretty sure that wards are
mobile. The rules also provide "rocks" as another example. Rocks range in
size from bigger than a house to a few cm in length...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Thu Jan 31 10:15:01 2002
Damion,

> The rules for wards in SR3 (p 174) specifically provide "vehicles" as an
> example of something that can be warded. So I'm pretty sure that wards are
> mobile. The rules also provide "rocks" as another example. Rocks range in
> size from bigger than a house to a few cm in length...


Haha! Yes, you're right they specifically do!!! Funny why they did
that, since in the very next sentence it says " a ward cannot be moved
from its physical component to another location."

I had always taken for granted a ward was created by the creation a
circle or a lodge. In the case of a corp a lodge would be neither
appropriate nor suitable due to its 'religious nature,' however a
corporate mage would create runes/symbols to create the warded area.

If the vehicle drives outside the ward, damaging the any part of it
would ruin its use. However, having re-read the rules it could be
easily argues that a ward can be set up without preparation similiar to
the conjuring of a watcher spirit.

My thinking, therefore, is that there are 2 reasons why a ward couldn't
be mobile. The first is rules lawyering, and the second is
interpretation. Who else thinks a ward can be mobile? Does anyone else
play with the rule that a ward needs to be setup with preparation
(either with chalk runes, or a permanent circle) or can be set up willy
nilly like the summoning of a watcher?

Xian
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Thu Jan 31 10:25:01 2002
At 03:21 PM 1/31/2002 +0000, Christian Casavant wrote:
>Damion,
>
>>The rules for wards in SR3 (p 174) specifically provide "vehicles" as an
>>example of something that can be warded. So I'm pretty sure that wards are
>>mobile. The rules also provide "rocks" as another example. Rocks range
in
>>size from bigger than a house to a few cm in length...
>
>Haha! Yes, you're right they specifically do!!! Funny why they did that,
>since in the very next sentence it says " a ward cannot be moved from its
>physical component to another location."

Where's the conflict? :)

Wards are not mobile, but it's okay for the physical component to be mobile.

For example, if a ward is placed on a car, it can't be moved to a
building. But the ward will go wherever the car goes. So if someone
drives off with the car then the ward, being placed on the car, will travel
with the car. (Course, you might end up pissing off a bunch of city
spirits as they suddenly find themselves getting pushed out of the way by
the ward as the car drives down their street ;)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Thu Jan 31 11:25:02 2002
Christian Casavant writes:

> Who else thinks a ward can be mobile? Does anyone else play with the rule
> that a ward needs to be setup with preparation (either with chalk runes, or
> a permanent circle) or can be set up willy nilly like the summoning of a
> watcher?

I suppose that I don't specifically have a problem with either of:

(a) Wards being mobile
(b) Wards not adhering to the shape of the object that they're
placed upon

However, I _do_ have a problem with _both_ of them combined ;-).

Thus, I guess, I should have a problem with one or the other, to avoid such
combinations. In my games, wards are perfectly mobile. However, they _must_
conform to the shape of what you cast them on.

Alternatively, I suppose, in order to avoid the problem that I encountered,
I could have made wards immobile. Thus, it would be possible to, say, ward
your garden gnome with a ward big enough to envelop both your house and your
neighbours place, but if you moved the gnome, then something bad would
happen to the ward. I couldn't be bothered figuring out just what bad thing,
so I didn't go for this route.

As for creating wards, all that is necessary (in both the rules and my
games) is that the creater be able to astrally perceive, and that they spend
the appropriate time to make the ward. Note that this allows ghouls and
shapeshifters (as well as various other characters that are capable of
astral perception, like cyberzombies) to create wards. Also note that the
_full_ time for creating the ward (1 hour per Force) must be spent _before_
the roll to see if the creation was successful is made. This makes creating
high Force wards a risky proposition, as you spend 12 hours straight trying
to make the thing, and _then_ try and roll those 12's to actually do so.

Wards have no other associated paraphenalia or connotations. Hermetic circles
and shamanic lodges, however, function similarly to wards in that they
provide astral barriers of a form, but _they_ have the associated stuff.
Wards are just astral walls.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Thu Jan 31 15:35:01 2002
Dewds,

> I suppose that I don't specifically have a problem with either of:
>
> (a) Wards being mobile
> (b) Wards not adhering to the shape of the object that they're
> placed upon
>
> However, I _do_ have a problem with _both_ of them combined ;-).
>
> Thus, I guess, I should have a problem with one or the other, to avoid such
> combinations. In my games, wards are perfectly mobile. However, they _must_
> conform to the shape of what you cast them on.
>
> Alternatively, I suppose, in order to avoid the problem that I encountered,
> I could have made wards immobile. Thus, it would be possible to, say, ward
> your garden gnome with a ward big enough to envelop both your house and your
> neighbours place, but if you moved the gnome, then something bad would
> happen to the ward. I couldn't be bothered figuring out just what bad thing,
> so I didn't go for this route.

My primary concern behind mobile wards was the ability to create an
instant magical weapon. Without karma or monetary cost, it becomes
possible to cast wards on melee weapons or bullets, imbuing mundanes
with the ability to affect astral beings with only a few hours of
casting time.

12 Hours, and 3 Force 4 warded bullets later. The mage can now give the
party samurai the ability to disrupt spirits. As a GM, I always
antagonize my party mage and physad by exploiting the corp mages'
abilities to always have 4 high force elementals bound to them.

Happily my players haven't thought of this, and I hope none of them lurk
on this mailing list!

I suppose, on the other hand, more power to the players if they do since
they really do need all the help they can get. Essentially, the mage
can create an emergency stash of anti-magic weapons for the the
non-mages to dole out if things go really badly.

Still though, mages are powerful enough! I don't think I want to give
them the potential to wreak more havoc than they already can. I guess
I'll just have to leave this secret alone and won't use it against them
unless they use it against the NPCs.

Damn, I love this game!

Xian
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Thu Jan 31 17:05:02 2002
Records show that at 03:28 on Friday 1/02/02, Damion Milliken scribbled:
>As for creating wards, all that is necessary (in both the rules and my
>games) is that the creater be able to astrally perceive, and that they spend
>the appropriate time to make the ward. Note that this allows ghouls and
>shapeshifters (as well as various other characters that are capable of
>astral perception, like cyberzombies) to create wards. Also note that the
<<snip>>

Spirits can also create wards. All that is needed is to astrally perceive
and be magically active (for this reason I'm not sure about the
cyberzombies above). It is not unusual, in my game, for a shaman to summon
a hearth spirit, check the hours of its existence and then command it to
ward a room (or some other area) at an appropriate force. Since temporary
wards last weeks, there are a lot of wards around in my game. :-)

Chris
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Thu Jan 31 17:30:04 2002
Sorry about missing the proper subject heading

>As for creating wards, all that is necessary (in both the rules and my
>games) is that the creater be able to astrally perceive, and that they spend
>the appropriate time to make the ward. Note that this allows ghouls and
>shapeshifters (as well as various other characters that are capable of
>astral perception, like cyberzombies) to create wards. Also note that the
>_full_ time for creating the ward (1 hour per Force) must be spent _before_
>the roll to see if the creation was successful is made. This makes creating
>high Force wards a risky proposition, as you spend 12 hours straight trying
>to make the thing, and _then_ try and roll those 12's to actually do so.
>
>Wards have no other associated paraphenalia or connotations. Hermetic circles
>and shamanic lodges, however, function similarly to wards in that they
>provide astral barriers of a form, but _they_ have the associated stuff.
>Wards are just astral walls.

But wards require a Magic Rating roll. IRC Ghouls and Shape Shifters are
only dual natured and do not have a magic rating as such.
Although the Magic Rating Roll has always annoyed me, almost as much as
the Intelligence roll for Assensing. The reason this annoys me is that when
Chuck Borris the Adept buys astral perception he instantly learns how to
assense (knows what thos e colours mean, what the spell is, can pick spell
signatures) and how to make wards (since he has a magic rating) even though
he has had no experience in the astral or with that type of magic at all.
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Thu Jan 31 19:00:01 2002
<snipt!(TM)>
> Haha! Yes, you're right they specifically do!!!
Funny why they did that, since in the very next
sentence it says " a ward cannot be moved from its
physical component to another location."

Which, although cumbersomely worded, actually means it
can't be moved from one OBJECT to another. So if the
warded object ITSELF is mobile, the ward is as well -
although technically the ward ITSELF is not mobile, as
it never moves from the object that was warded.

> I had always taken for granted a ward was created by
the creation a circle or a lodge.

No, not exactly. Hermetic circles (only when in use?
I'm not sure about that) and shamanic lodges (at all
times) form ASTRAL BARRIERS, in the same way that a
ward does. A ward, however, is an entirely different
animal to a circle or lodge. They're created in an
entirely different fashion and their duration is also
determined differently.

> In the case of a corp a lodge would be neither
appropriate nor suitable due to its 'religious
nature,' however a corporate mage would create
runes/symbols to create the warded area.

This doesn't apply, for reasons noted below. As I said
above, though, wards and lodges and circles are
different, although they all create a similar "astral
barrier" effect.

> If the vehicle drives outside the ward, damaging the
any part of it would ruin its use. However, having
re-read the rules it could be easily argues that a
ward can be set up without preparation similiar to the
conjuring of a watcher spirit.

This is so.

> My thinking, therefore, is that there are 2 reasons
why a ward couldn't be mobile. The first is rules
lawyering,

I don't get this. The rules state that a ward, by
itself, is not mobile, but mobile objects can be
warded. Thus, if they move, the ward remains static,
as it never moves from the object on which it was
created. Where's the rules lawyering in that?

> and the second is interpretation. Who else thinks a
ward can be mobile?

Me, for one - but it has to be on a mobile OBJECT. You
can't create a ward on a room and then take it with
you when you leave.

> Does anyone else play with the rule that a ward
needs to be setup with preparation (either with chalk
runes, or a permanent circle) or can be set up willy
nilly like the summoning of a watcher?
> Xian

That's a simple one. Wards don't cost anything but
time to set up, thus they require no components.
That's why there's no "shamanic lodge" concerns for
those who don't like the "religious overtones" of such things.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bo Johnson)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Thu Jan 31 21:40:01 2002
At 11:30 AM 2/1/02 +1300, Bryan Pow wrote:
> Although the Magic Rating Roll has always annoyed me, almost as much as
>the Intelligence roll for Assensing. The reason this annoys me is that when
>Chuck Borris the Adept buys astral perception he instantly learns how to
>assense (knows what thos e colours mean, what the spell is, can pick spell
>signatures) and how to make wards (since he has a magic rating) even though
>he has had no experience in the astral or with that type of magic at all.

What about when Chuck Borris the Adept buys German 1 by spending
Karma? Does he instantly know how to speak German? Of course not, that's
why they have rules for training time in the Companion. If there aren't
already rules for training time for Adepts (which would be a moderate
oversight), make something reasonable up. Maybe 2 days per tenth of a
power point, base time. That means it takes an Adept 40 days to fully
learn how to use Astral Perception, colors, wards, and all.

Think of this... There are lots of places in SR where they talk about the
percentage of metahumanity that is magically active. And they always say
that there are a lot of people who never got the training to develop their
magical abilities. If Chuck Borris says he wants Astral Perception, and he
has the two power points to buy it, ask him who is going to train him.
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Fri Feb 1 00:00:01 2002
Records show that at 07:41 on Friday 1/02/02, Christian Casavant scribbled:
>My primary concern behind mobile wards was the ability to create an
>instant magical weapon. Without karma or monetary cost, it becomes
>possible to cast wards on melee weapons or bullets, imbuing mundanes
>with the ability to affect astral beings with only a few hours of
>casting time.
>
>12 Hours, and 3 Force 4 warded bullets later. The mage can now give the
>party samurai the ability to disrupt spirits. As a GM, I always
>antagonize my party mage and physad by exploiting the corp mages'
>abilities to always have 4 high force elementals bound to them.

IMHO I don't see these objects as weapons, except in one special case.

What happens when a projecting magician runs into a Ward he didn't see
(e.g. a Masking Ward)? He just stops. He has no momentum, inertia or any
other physical attributes, and so he simply stops if blocked by a Ward, a
dual natured being, a focus or any other astrally present item. Similarly,
if a moving Ward slams into an astral being, it'd just be shoved aside. No
damage done. So, if these melee weapons or bullets are used on astral
beings, all they'd do is shove the astral beings away (which could be
beneficial :).

The special case, however, is with dual-natured creatures such as
materialized spirits who, being physical, do have a degree of inertia. In
this case, when a materialized spirit is struck by a warded sword or
bullet, IMHO the Pressing Through a Barrier rules in MITS would apply,
possibly causing the spirit damage or forcing it to de-materialize.

Chris
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Wards (was Re: Astral Security.)
Date: Fri Feb 1 10:20:02 2002
On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:21:36 +0000
Christian Casavant <christian@********.org> wrote:

> Damion,
>
> > The rules for wards in SR3 (p 174) specifically provide "vehicles" as
an
> > example of something that can be warded. So I'm pretty sure that wards are
> > mobile. The rules also provide "rocks" as another example. Rocks range
in
> > size from bigger than a house to a few cm in length...
>
>
> Haha! Yes, you're right they specifically do!!! Funny why they did
> that, since in the very next sentence it says " a ward cannot be moved
> from its physical component to another location."

This is not a contradiction :). It means you can't take the ward
off your vehicle and move it to a rock, for example, but if the
_vehicle_ moves around, so does the ward.

> I had always taken for granted a ward was created by the creation a
> circle or a lodge. In the case of a corp a lodge would be neither
> appropriate nor suitable due to its 'religious nature,' however a
> corporate mage would create runes/symbols to create the warded area.

Hermetic circles function as astral barriers only while they're
being used for a ritual. But the creation of a ward by a hermetic mage
would involve the drawing of several symbols of arcane power :).

--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>

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