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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott Dean Peterson)
Subject: was Great Dragon now Explosives (long)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:55:01 2002
I said,

> > Who said anything about diameter.

Gurth said,

> Both of you were talking about larger warheads. My idea is
> that a larger warhead
> requires a bigger launch tube. (Note that I do realize a
> larger warhead is not
> necessarily the same as a more powerful one, or vice-versa.)

The central idea I thought was to increase the amount of explosives weight
wise because of lowered weight on the rest of the system. And the idea I
had for that was to use either more powerful explosives or a denser one
packing more into the same space/ weight ratio.

> > look at WW2 and Comp B. Big blocks and only 4 times as powerful as
> > sticks of TNT. Then Look at Vietnam and C-4. I'd have to
> pull out my
> > engineers filed book to get exact numbers but basically
> about 3-6 times
> > as powerful as Comp B. Now we have syntex which is 8 times
> as powerful
> > as C-4. See where I'm going with this?

> To inaccurate numbers, I suspect :) My 1967 US Army
> demolitions manual says
> Composition B and C4 are about the same strength. What gives?

Ok let me look it up. And I think I was slighted buy the fact that
shadowrun has stepped explosive power. Ok my Engineer Field Data Book,
dated 1976 says: (and it is a bit complicated so hope you like
math)<summery>

Explosives and Demolitions Chapter 2
Section 1 Intro

2-1 chararecteristics of explosives: uses for rapid construction of
obstacles, breaching enemy obstacles and blasting (note not for anti
personnel use) See table for primary uses of US Military Explosives and
relative Effectiveness (RE) factors.

2-2 the formula used in this chapter gives the weight pf the explosive (P)
required for the task. Where any explosive other than TNT is used the
required pounds of explosives is obtained by dividing P by RE factor.
Fractions are rounded up.

TNT re of 1 Detonation Value 23,000 fps
Tetrytol 1.2 23,000
C-4 1.34 26,000
Dynamite .92 20,000

no others on the list concern the discussion. Comp B is not listed but I
would presume it to be Tetrytol. Unless you have something I don't in your
book. I don't have the Demolitions Manuel here because I found that the
engineer field book was more use to me as a Mortar man.

> If you use a more powerful explosive, it's probably going to
> weigh about the same
> as the original one, so there'd be no need to lower the rest
> of the weapon's
> weight.

Again I'm not a materials expert but recall my previous posts about
'density' or packing more punch into the same space/weight.

Scott 'Edge' Peterson

Warrior Priest of Storm Haven
Ex epidemiologist El Paso County, El Paso Texas
Ex combat infantry man, 60% disabled.
Ex NREMT-P Nationally Registered Paramedic
Training Medical Anthropologist/MPH
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: was Great Dragon now Explosives (long)
Date: Wed Aug 14 05:20:01 2002
According to Scott Dean Peterson, on Tue, 13 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> The central idea I thought was to increase the amount of explosives
> weight wise because of lowered weight on the rest of the system. And the
> idea I had for that was to use either more powerful explosives or a
> denser one packing more into the same space/ weight ratio.

Whereas my idea is that to increase the explosive charge you need a larger
warhead... Additionally, I'm not convinced whether increasing the explosive power
without enlarging the warhead diameter will cause higher armor penetration.

[snip explosive stats]
> no others on the list concern the discussion. Comp B is not listed but I
> would presume it to be Tetrytol. Unless you have something I don't in
> your book. I don't have the Demolitions Manuel here because I found that
> the engineer field book was more use to me as a Mortar man.

Composition B has explosive strength 1.35, whereas C4 is 1.34. Detonation
velocities are 25,600 feet per second[1] and 26,379 fps, respectively. Anyway,
what started this was your remark of C4 being "3-6 times as powerful as Comp B,"

which is not borne out by these figures...

[1] I much prefer metric, but for comparison purposes with your figures, I'll "go
Imperial" for once :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott Dean Peterson)
Subject: was Great Dragon now Explosives (long)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:20:01 2002
Gurth said,

> Whereas my idea is that to increase the explosive charge you
> need a larger
> warhead... Additionally, I'm not convinced whether increasing
> the explosive power
> without enlarging the warhead diameter will cause higher
> armor penetration.

Why a larger warhead. If the explosive is more powerful or has more power
in the same amount of space, why does it have to be larger? And you don't
need to worry about the penetration. The pip Dragon and pip Tow (prior to
3rd gen dragon and tow which are top attack) have the dual function anti
reactive armor and improved shape charge from adding the telescoping (3-6
inches not sure) tip on the front of the missile.

> Anyway,
> what started this was your remark of C4 being "3-6 times as
> powerful as Comp B,"
> which is not borne out by these figures...

Guess I had the stepped explosives idea from SR rules on the brain when I
said that. I still cant see comp b being more powerful. maybe its a
predisposition to using the standardized C-4 that's in use now but still.
And now I'm even more intrigued to find out what symtex does numbers wise.


Scott 'Edge' Peterson

Warrior Priest of Storm Haven
Ex epidemiologist El Paso County, El Paso Texas
Ex combat infantry man, 60% disabled.
Ex NREMT-P Nationally Registered Paramedic
Training Medical Anthropologist/MPH
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: was Great Dragon now Explosives (long)
Date: Thu Aug 15 08:00:05 2002
According to Scott Dean Peterson, on Wed, 14 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> Why a larger warhead.

To get a larger-diameter HEAT round, which will penetrate thicker armor? AFAIK the
main factors in a HEAT round's armor penetration are the cone's diameter and
angle, not the amount or power of the explosives behind it (provided there's
enough, of course).

> If the explosive is more powerful or has more
> power in the same amount of space, why does it have to be larger? And
> you don't need to worry about the penetration. The pip Dragon and pip
> Tow (prior to 3rd gen dragon and tow which are top attack) have the dual
> function anti reactive armor and improved shape charge from adding the
> telescoping (3-6 inches not sure) tip on the front of the missile.

There you go again: you come up with something else than what's under
discussion :) Yes, a dual-charge round will take care of ERA, but you still need a
large warhead to penetrate the normal armor underneath it. A top-attack round will
get round the problem completely (except that Russian tanks have ERA on the turret
roof) but IMHO is not relevant to talking about how to get through thicker armor
-- you're going around it rather than through. Granted, the effect is the same and
it's probably the better solution, but...

> And now I'm even more intrigued to find out what symtex does numbers
> wise.

I can't help you there, as it's not listed in my 35-year-old manual.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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