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Message no. 1
From: trick_ster@*******.com (Niels Sønderborg)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:18:27 +0100
ONe of my players just pointed out and I regree with him that the Ares Alpha
Combat Gun is unreasonable cheat. you probably know all the stats but still,
it got smart2, recoil2 and an underbarrel grenadelauncher. The complete
package is 2k. If you want a rifle with the same stats or even close you
will easily round 4 or 5k.
then there is the Great Dragon. It is way to cheap and too easy to get a
hold on.
How do you guys deal with this and other unbalanced prices/availabilities?
Have anyone of you gone over the lists and edited it to balance such issues?
If so, can I get a look at it? ;)

I thank you all, both for answering this question and in settleling others
of my doubts about this wonderful game. Rock On!

_________________________________________________________________
Få alle de nye og sjove ikoner med MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.dk
Message no. 2
From: arclight@*********.de (Arclight)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:33:44 +0100
At 17:18 17.01.2004 +0100, Niels Sønderborg wrote:

>ONe of my players just pointed out and I regree with him that the Ares
>Alpha Combat Gun is unreasonable cheat. you probably know all the stats
>but still, it got smart2, recoil2 and an underbarrel grenadelauncher. The
>complete package is 2k. If you want a rifle with the same stats or even
>close you will easily round 4 or 5k.
>then there is the Great Dragon. It is way to cheap and too easy to get a
>hold on.
>How do you guys deal with this and other unbalanced prices/availabilities?

I'll give that stuff to the NSCs too *g* Besides, the Great Dragon ATGM
should be a bitch to haul along, at least for standard in-city shadowruns.
Also don't forget that you need to erect the tripod to fire it and the
backblast. Building a fitting fireposition takes some time...


--
Arclight

Quitters never win, winners never quit,
but those who never quit and never win are idiots
Message no. 3
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:14:46 +0000
On Sat, Jan 17, 2004 at 05:33:44PM +0100, Arclight wrote:
> At 17:18 17.01.2004 +0100, Niels S?nderborg wrote:
>
> >ONe of my players just pointed out and I regree with him that the Ares
> >Alpha Combat Gun is unreasonable cheat. you probably know all the stats
> >but still, it got smart2, recoil2 and an underbarrel grenadelauncher. The
> >complete package is 2k. If you want a rifle with the same stats or even
> >close you will easily round 4 or 5k.
> >then there is the Great Dragon. It is way to cheap and too easy to get a
> >hold on.
> >How do you guys deal with this and other unbalanced prices/availabilities?
>
> I'll give that stuff to the NSCs too *g* Besides, the Great Dragon ATGM
> should be a bitch to haul along, at least for standard in-city shadowruns.
> Also don't forget that you need to erect the tripod to fire it and the
> backblast. Building a fitting fireposition takes some time...
>
Why is it a bitch to haul around? It's only 2.75 kg. Even with a missile in it (another
3 kg) it's just 5.75 kg, which is comparable to a tricked-out assault rifle. Now, if you
want to have lots of spare shots then those missiles quickly add up, but sometimes all you
need is one...
Not sure about the whole tripod thing. Why does it even need one? It's a missile, so it
ought to be recoilless, or at least nearly so, and as I just pointed out it doesn't weigh
all that much. Oh well, it is in the description but it never made much sense to me.

I agree that it's way too cheap and easy to get, though. A generic AV missile costs 5K
before the street index and has a smaller blast than this thing. Even so, is this the
kind of toy that the average runner actually needs? Do you really have a problem with
players buying them? At least for me it seems like most of the time what the heck are you
going to do with one of these things? If it actually is a problem, just make it more
expensive and with a higher availability.

Now, while I agree that the Ares Alpha is probably a bit cheaper than it ought to be,
don't forget that *all* guns with accessories tend to be cheaper than buying those
accessories yourself. I don't think the Alpha is that ought of line...maybe make it 2.5
or 3K but I wouldn't go any further than that.

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
http://davek.freeshell.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 4
From: arclight@*********.de (Arclight)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:16:01 +0100
At 17:14 17.01.2004 +0000, David Kettler wrote:

<snip>

>Why is it a bitch to haul around? It's only 2.75 kg. Even with a missile
>in it (another 3 kg) it's just 5.75 kg, which is comparable to a
>tricked-out assault rifle. Now, if you want to have lots of spare shots
>then those missiles quickly add up, but sometimes all you need is one...

Because of it's size. It's not collapsible like the LAW, comparable to a
real-life Dragon ATGM or maybe a Javelin. Together with a
rifle/submachinegun and a basic load (radio, ammo, grenades, misc gear like
ropes and electronic tools) a single person may take the launcher and one
missle with him, but another missile should hamper him a lot.

>Not sure about the whole tripod thing. Why does it even need one? It's a
>missile, so it ought to be recoilless, or at least nearly so, and as I
>just pointed out it doesn't weigh all that much. Oh well, it is in the
>description but it never made much sense to me.

Because it's easier to handle the weapon that way. I don't think that
you'll fire this missile from the shoulder/on the move, so for the use out
of a fixed position you can mount the missile on the tripod and can pre-aim
into the direction you expect the trouble to roll in *g* You can also aim
easier as you don't have to hold the weight of the weapon yourself and it
can be easily rotated/elevated on the tripod.

>I agree that it's way too cheap and easy to get, though. A generic AV
>missile costs 5K before the street index and has a smaller blast than this
>thing. Even so, is this the kind of toy that the average runner actually
>needs?

It's from the sourcebook "fields of fire", which was a little bit oriented
to mercenary campaigns... maybe this solves the problem, or at least
explains the stats a bit. Same goes for the GPUV (sort of a Humvee) and the
mortar...

> Do you really have a problem with players buying them? At least for me
> it seems like most of the time what the heck are you going to do with one
> of these things? If it actually is a problem, just make it more
> expensive and with a higher availability.

Great Dragons are fun *g* You can use it as a big-bore sniper weapon or
clear rooms with it. Or make an entrypoint through a wall. (I play merc
campaigns.)



--
Arclight

Quitters never win, winners never quit,
but those who never quit and never win are idiots
Message no. 5
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:35:40 +0100
According to David Kettler, on Saturday 17 January 2004 18:14 the word on
the street was...

> Why is it a bitch to haul around? It's only 2.75 kg. Even with a
> missile in it (another 3 kg) it's just 5.75 kg, which is comparable to a
> tricked-out assault rifle. Now, if you want to have lots of spare shots
> then those missiles quickly add up, but sometimes all you need is one...
> Not sure about the whole tripod thing. Why does it even need one? It's
> a missile, so it ought to be recoilless, or at least nearly so, and as I
> just pointed out it doesn't weigh all that much. Oh well, it is in the
> description but it never made much sense to me.

It's got a tripod because the Great Dragon is _very_ obviously an SR
version of the M47 Dragon ATGM of the 1970s-present, and that has a
folding bipod attached to its muzzle. The reason with the M47 is because
it weighs about 15 kg with the day sight and 21 kg with the night sight,
and is rather bulky, all of which is too much to comfortably hold on your
shoulder unsupported and still expect to hit anything. I agree that the
Great Dragon is SR is so light and small (going by its Concealability)
that it's unlikely it would need a support of any kind.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:38:16 +0100
According to Arclight, on Saturday 17 January 2004 21:16 the word on the
street was...

> Because of it's size. It's not collapsible like the LAW, comparable to a
> real-life Dragon ATGM or maybe a Javelin. Together with a
> rifle/submachinegun and a basic load (radio, ammo, grenades, misc gear
> like ropes and electronic tools) a single person may take the launcher
> and one missle with him, but another missile should hamper him a lot.

Unfortunately, it has a Concealability of 4, which means every runner you
meet could have a couple of them hidden under his or her standard-issue
secure long coat... Whereas a real Dragon is best compared to a meter-long
length of thick drainpipe with some lumps added.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: arclight@*********.de (Arclight)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:56:32 +0100
At 11:38 18.01.2004 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>According to Arclight, on Saturday 17 January 2004 21:16 the word on the
>street was...
>
> > Because of it's size. It's not collapsible like the LAW, comparable to a
> > real-life Dragon ATGM or maybe a Javelin. Together with a
> > rifle/submachinegun and a basic load (radio, ammo, grenades, misc gear
> > like ropes and electronic tools) a single person may take the launcher
> > and one missle with him, but another missile should hamper him a lot.
>
>Unfortunately, it has a Concealability of 4, which means every runner you
>meet could have a couple of them hidden under his or her standard-issue
>secure long coat... Whereas a real Dragon is best compared to a meter-long
>length of thick drainpipe with some lumps added.

In my copy, it's 0. The LAW has 4/0 ...


--
Arclight

Quitters never win, winners never quit,
but those who never quit and never win are idiots
Message no. 8
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:12:23 +0100
According to Arclight, on Sunday 18 January 2004 11:56 the word on the
street was...

> In my copy, it's 0. The LAW has 4/0 ...

That'll teach me to look this stuff up in FOF instead of CC because that's
the first book I come across...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: arclight@*********.de (Arclight)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:19:29 +0100
At 14:12 18.01.2004 +0100, Gurth wrote:

> > In my copy, it's 0. The LAW has 4/0 ...
>
>That'll teach me to look this stuff up in FOF instead of CC because that's
>the first book I come across...

Yes, the first CC was a bit bug-infested AFAIK *g* I looked it up in a
Arsenal 2060...


--
Arclight

Quitters never win, winners never quit,
but those who never quit and never win are idiots
Message no. 10
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:31:39 +1100 (EST)
--- David Kettler <davek@***.lonestar.org> wrote:

<snip >

> Now, while I agree that the Ares Alpha is probably a
> bit cheaper than it ought to be, don't forget that
> *all* guns with accessories tend to be cheaper than
> buying those accessories yourself. I don't think
> the Alpha is that ought of line...maybe make it 2.5
> or 3K but I wouldn't go any further than that.

If you want to buy your basic rifle In the army as a
personal weapon (to be used only on authorised bases &
military grounds, exercise, etc.) , your looking at
setting yourself back 3 1/2 4 grand for basic f88 Aus
styre (just the assault rifle version, no additional
customization suchs as different barrel lengths etc.
like In the basic retail package; although you get the
carry/suitcase still ;). I think $3000 still way cheap
;)

GZ


http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals
New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time.
Message no. 11
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:21:34 +0000
On Mon, Jan 19, 2004 at 05:31:39PM +1100, Robert Ennew wrote:
> --- David Kettler <davek@***.lonestar.org> wrote:
>
> <snip >
>
> > Now, while I agree that the Ares Alpha is probably a
> > bit cheaper than it ought to be, don't forget that
> > *all* guns with accessories tend to be cheaper than
> > buying those accessories yourself. I don't think
> > the Alpha is that ought of line...maybe make it 2.5
> > or 3K but I wouldn't go any further than that.
>
> If you want to buy your basic rifle In the army as a
> personal weapon (to be used only on authorised bases &
> military grounds, exercise, etc.) , your looking at
> setting yourself back 3 1/2 4 grand for basic f88 Aus
> styre (just the assault rifle version, no additional
> customization suchs as different barrel lengths etc.
> like In the basic retail package; although you get the
> carry/suitcase still ;). I think $3000 still way cheap
> ;)
>

That may well be, but then the conclusion is that *all* assault rifles in Shadowrun are
underriced, not just the Alpha. Maybe assault rifles are just cheaper in 2060?

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
http://davek.freeshell.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 12
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:35:19 +1100 (EST)
--- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote: > According to
David Kettler, on Saturday 17 January
> 2004 18:14 the word on
> the street was...
>
> > Why is it a bitch to haul around? It's only 2.75
> kg. Even with a
> > missile in it (another 3 kg) it's just 5.75 kg,
> which is comparable to a
> > tricked-out assault rifle. Now, if you want to
> have lots of spare shots
> > then those missiles quickly add up, but sometimes
> all you need is one...
> > Not sure about the whole tripod thing. Why does
> it even need one? It's
> > a missile, so it ought to be recoilless, or at
> least nearly so, and as I
> > just pointed out it doesn't weigh all that much.
> Oh well, it is in the
> > description but it never made much sense to me.
>
> It's got a tripod because the Great Dragon is _very_
> obviously an SR
> version of the M47 Dragon ATGM of the 1970s-present,
> and that has a
> folding bipod attached to its muzzle. The reason
> with the M47 is because
> it weighs about 15 kg with the day sight and 21 kg
> with the night sight,
> and is rather bulky, all of which is too much to
> comfortably hold on your
> shoulder unsupported and still expect to hit
> anything. I agree that the
> Great Dragon is SR is so light and small (going by
> its Concealability)
> that it's unlikely it would need a support of any
> kind.

But wouldn't you be a drekhead If you tried to fire
something like that without any support or tripod?
Recoil must be a Bitch. From what your saying Gurth
you'd want the tripod to give you a chance of hitting
anything, you wouldn't want to risk wasting the bucks
you forked out for the missile(s)

GZ

http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals
New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time.
Message no. 13
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:50:57 +0000
In article <20040117171446.GB8435@***.LONESTAR.ORG>, David Kettler
<davek@***.lonestar.org> writes
>On Sat, Jan 17, 2004 at 05:33:44PM +0100, Arclight wrote:
>> I'll give that stuff to the NSCs too *g* Besides, the Great Dragon ATGM
>> should be a bitch to haul along, at least for standard in-city shadowruns.
>> Also don't forget that you need to erect the tripod to fire it and the
>> backblast. Building a fitting fireposition takes some time...
>>
>Why is it a bitch to haul around? It's only 2.75 kg. Even with a
>missile in it (another 3 kg) it's just 5.75 kg, which is comparable to
>a tricked-out assault rifle.

It might be light, but it's going to be bulky, and not the easiest item
to conceal...


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 14
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:21:43 +0200
Robert Ennew wrote:
> --- David Kettler <davek@***.lonestar.org> wrote:
>
> <snip >
>
> > Now, while I agree that the Ares Alpha is probably a
> > bit cheaper than it ought to be, don't forget that
> > *all* guns with accessories tend to be cheaper than
> > buying those accessories yourself. I don't think
> > the Alpha is that ought of line...maybe make it 2.5
> > or 3K but I wouldn't go any further than that.
>
> If you want to buy your basic rifle In the army as a
> personal weapon (to be used only on authorised bases &
> military grounds, exercise, etc.) , your looking at
> setting yourself back 3 1/2 4 grand for basic f88 Aus
> styre (just the assault rifle version, no additional
> customization suchs as different barrel lengths etc.
> like In the basic retail package; although you get the
> carry/suitcase still ;). I think $3000 still way cheap
> ;)

Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but you can't draw an accurate
comparison between the present-day value of the Australian dollar and the
value of the nuyen in 2060.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



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Message no. 15
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:49:21 +1100 (EST)
--- Steve Garrard <SteveG@***********.co.za> wrote: >
Robert Ennew wrote:
> > --- David Kettler <davek@***.lonestar.org> wrote:
> >
> > <snip >
> >
> > > Now, while I agree that the Ares Alpha is
> probably a
> > > bit cheaper than it ought to be, don't forget
> that
> > > *all* guns with accessories tend to be cheaper
> than
> > > buying those accessories yourself. I don't
> think
> > > the Alpha is that ought of line...maybe make it
> 2.5
> > > or 3K but I wouldn't go any further than that.
> >
> > If you want to buy your basic rifle In the army as
> a
> > personal weapon (to be used only on authorised
> bases &
> > military grounds, exercise, etc.) , your looking
> at
> > setting yourself back 3 1/2 4 grand for basic f88
> Aus
> > styre (just the assault rifle version, no
> additional
> > customization suchs as different barrel lengths
> etc.
> > like In the basic retail package; although you get
> the
> > carry/suitcase still ;). I think $3000 still way
> cheap
> > ;)
>
> Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but you can't
> draw an accurate
> comparison between the present-day value of the
> Australian dollar and the
> value of the nuyen in 2060.
>
>
> Slayer

Well Slayer, your statement may be true. I assume the
Nuyen Is actually translated as the Neo or "new Yen".
the Australian $ Is worth about .75 yen (I think
anyway) It wouldn't be to far off the mark In saying
that an assault rifle with the sophistication of the
future like the ares alpha would be under 5,000 nuyen.

I'm only comparing the price of a f88 Austyre 3K
Aussie $, to a A1 M16 which my guess would be over 5k
american $. The Aussie $ Is usually calculated at
being .5 of the American $ give or take. The Ares
Alpha sounds to me like It would be a M16 type series.
So I assume a M16 series In Australia would cost the
owner In Australia approx. 10,000 Aussie $. To me this
sounds reasonable for such a weapon.

BTW slightly off track, our Aussie reserve force is
rumoured to no longer be allowed to go on feild
exercises because of the terrorism across the world.
Instead where confined to base & practicing defense
of the base & building/urban insertion (restricted to
base(s) of course) In case of taking out terrorists
who've managed to occupy a company base. Is this the
same sort of thing the "national gaurd" are prepping
for In the states?

GZ

http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals
New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time.
Message no. 16
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:36:04 +0200
Robert Ennew wrote:
> --- Steve Garrard <SteveG@***********.co.za> wrote: >
> > Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but you can't
> > draw an accurate
> > comparison between the present-day value of the
> > Australian dollar and the
> > value of the nuyen in 2060.
> >
> >
> > Slayer
>
> Well Slayer, your statement may be true. I assume the
> Nuyen Is actually translated as the Neo or "new Yen".
> the Australian $ Is worth about .75 yen (I think
> anyway) It wouldn't be to far off the mark In saying
> that an assault rifle with the sophistication of the
> future like the ares alpha would be under 5,000 nuyen.
>
> [snip]

Fair enough, but economics being what it is I seriously doubt any
relationship could be drawn to the present-day Yen and the nuyen either,
particularly since it seems to be more of a quasi-global currency (like the
Euro in Europe) adopted by many nations and therefore dependent on vastly
different economic indicators.

But I understand what you're saying, and I doubt anyone here's too
interested in a detailed economic debate :)


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.

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Message no. 17
From: moe@*******.com (Allen Versfeld)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:42:21 +0200
Steve Garrard wrote:
> Robert Ennew wrote:
>
>> --- Steve Garrard <SteveG@***********.co.za> wrote: >
>>
>>>Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but you can't
>>>draw an accurate
>>>comparison between the present-day value of the
>>>Australian dollar and the
>>>value of the nuyen in 2060.
>>>
>>>
>>>Slayer
>>
>>Well Slayer, your statement may be true. I assume the
>>Nuyen Is actually translated as the Neo or "new Yen".
>>the Australian $ Is worth about .75 yen (I think
>>anyway) It wouldn't be to far off the mark In saying
>>that an assault rifle with the sophistication of the
>>future like the ares alpha would be under 5,000 nuyen.
>>
>>[snip]
>
>
> Fair enough, but economics being what it is I seriously doubt any
> relationship could be drawn to the present-day Yen and the nuyen either,
> particularly since it seems to be more of a quasi-global currency (like the
> Euro in Europe) adopted by many nations and therefore dependent on vastly
> different economic indicators.
>
> But I understand what you're saying, and I doubt anyone here's too
> interested in a detailed economic debate :)
>


The standard rule has always been to equate Shadowrun era nuyen with
current day US$. If you need to know what something not listed in the
books costs (Say, a crowbar), simply fly to the US, walk into a hardware
shop, see what they charge for a crowbar, and quote that value to your
players.
Message no. 18
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 08:50:02 +0000
In article <20040123054921.34172.qmail@********.mail.yahoo.com>, Robert
Ennew <robertennew@*****.com.au> writes
> I'm only comparing the price of a f88 Austyre 3K
>Aussie $, to a A1 M16 which my guess would be over 5k
>american $.

Price to the military, around US$500. (Civilian price is a lot higher
for an assortment of reasons).

Just for reference, a few years back I bought a Type 56-1 assault rifle
(SR equivalent would be an AK-97) for the equivalent of US$300 - that
was for a brand-new weapon, including shipping and deactivation to Home
Office standards.

For another data point, I had a conversation with the armourer of Civil
Defence Supplies, who'd started doing .224BOZ conversions of MP5/10s but
switched to M4 carbines because he could buy a batch of M4s for US$400
apiece while the MP5/10s were over US$3000.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 19
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:11:12 +0100
According to Steve Garrard, on Friday 23 January 2004 09:36 the word on the
street was...

> Fair enough, but economics being what it is I seriously doubt any
> relationship could be drawn to the present-day Yen and the nuyen either,

Well, there is the old guideline that one nuyen equals one modern-day US
dollar...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Weapon Availability and Price ...
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:39:24 +0000
At 10:35 AM 1/18/2004, Gurth wrote:
>It's got a tripod because the Great Dragon is _very_ obviously an SR
>version of the M47 Dragon ATGM of the 1970s-present, and that has a
>folding bipod attached to its muzzle. The reason with the M47 is because
>it weighs about 15 kg with the day sight and 21 kg with the night sight,
>and is rather bulky, all of which is too much to comfortably hold on your
>shoulder unsupported and still expect to hit anything. I agree that the
>Great Dragon is SR is so light and small (going by its Concealability)
>that it's unlikely it would need a support of any kind.

It also has a tripod because of the fact that it's pictured that way in
Fields of Fire (I think?)


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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