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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Fri Jun 8 14:00:01 2001

Message no. 1 Hi Folks!

I was reviewing possible house rules for plagiarising and including in my
own house rules, and I found Jonathan Hurley's rules for SR weapon damages.
They seem reasonably sound, and solve a long time annoyance I have regarding
SR heavy pistols being just about the best weapon in the game due to their
great armour penetrating capabilities (thanks to their Power of 9). I've
discussed this with my players, some of whom know a bit about guns, and we
came up with the following ideas for something that might actually be
convenient enough to be playable. I do not claim to know all that much
about firearms (hence the confusion surrounding SMGs and Machine Pistols),
so I thought I'd run this past a sanity check first...

WEAPON DAMAGES

Jonathan Hurley noted that the firearm classes in SR are rather arbitrary
and that their respective Damage Codes are not particularly logical when the
actual nature of the weapons is considered. These rules are based upon his
house rules. First, the Damage Code of a weapon should be based on the round
fired (slightly adjusted for barrel length). Second, the Power is used as a
measure of penetrating (often of armour) ability, and Damage Level is used
as a measure of wounding capability. These last considerations (Power and
Damage Level) are not strictly true, but they are a good approximation.

The table below shows the ammunition types available, the weapons that use
the ammunition, and the Damage Codes for the ammunition. Note that several
ammunition types have been eliminated, as various weapons use the same
ammunition. For those especially concerned with realism, it would be
possible to actually assign calibres to each weapon, and Damage Codes to
each calibre of ammunition. For the purposes of actually playing SR,
however, the simplification here is probably sufficient.

Ammunition Weapons Damage Code
Hold Out Clip/Magazine fed Hold Out Pistols 4L, 5L
Light Pistol Light Pistols, Machine Pistols 6M, 7M
Heavy Pistol Break Operated Hold Out Pistols, Heavy Pistols, SMGs 4S, 5S, 6S
Assault Rifle Assault Rifles, LMGs 9L, 10L
Sporting Rifle Sporting Rifles, MMGs 9M, 10M
Sniper Rifle Sniper Rifles 13M, 14M
Shotgun Shotguns (including pistol sized shotguns) 8S, 9S, 10S
HMG HMGs 14S

There are a couple of assumptions taken in the table. Existing machine
pistols and SMGs (there is little difference except for design philosophy)
use pistol sized ammunition. For simplification purposes, it is assumed that
those firing light pistol ammunition now fall into the machine pistol
classification, and that those firing heavy pistol ammunition are now
considered SMGs. It would be entirely possible to argue that machine pistols
use Hold Out ammunition and SMGs use Light Pistol ammunition, or that there
simply was no difference between the ammunition that the two weapon types
used. Sporting rifles are assumed to be the larger calibre variety (eg
30-06, 7.62mm), rather than the smaller calibre variety (22 long, 5.56mm).
Small calibre sporting rifles would have Assault Rifle damage, but sporting
rifle ranges. Similarly, sniper rifles are assumed to be high velocity small
calibre rounds.

Exceptions to the table include:

AK-97 Carbine: this weapon fires Assault Rifle ammunition, but at SMG ranges.
Styer AUG-CSL & H&K G38: these weapons fires Assault Rifle ammunition, with
a range dependent on their configuration. In LMG mode, they receive +1 Power.
Barret 121: this weapon fires HMG ammunition, at sniper rifle ranges.
All High-Velocity Weapons: these fire Light Pistol ammunition. HV LMGs
receive +1 Power.

The effects of special ammunition have also changed:

APDS rounds have -1 Damage Level. If damage was L, it is reduced to N (none,
the attacker must have 2 net successes, or at least 3 rounds in a burst, to
do any damage).
Explosive rounds have -1 Power and +1 Damage Level.
EX Explosive and Glaser rounds have +1 Damage Level.
Hollowpoint and Mercury rounds have -1 Power and +1 Damage Level.

How much sense does all this make?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Fri Jun 8 15:05:01 2001

Message no. 2 At 04:05 AM 6/9/2001 +1000, Damion Milliken wrote:
>Hi Folks!
>
>I was reviewing possible house rules for plagiarising and including in my
>own house rules, and I found Jonathan Hurley's rules for SR weapon damages.
>They seem reasonably sound, and solve a long time annoyance I have regarding
>SR heavy pistols being just about the best weapon in the game due to their
>great armour penetrating capabilities (thanks to their Power of 9). I've
>discussed this with my players, some of whom know a bit about guns, and we
>came up with the following ideas for something that might actually be
>convenient enough to be playable. I do not claim to know all that much
>about firearms (hence the confusion surrounding SMGs and Machine Pistols),
>so I thought I'd run this past a sanity check first...

I just thought of a quick and easy hack.

Subtract 1 from the Power of a weapon for every level of range beyond short.

A weapon fired at a target within short range would be unaffected. Firing
at a target at medium range would result in a -1 to the Power of the
attack, -2 at Long range, and -3 Power at Extreme range.

If you're in a confined space that heavy pistol is still king, but if you
trading shots with someone down the street, the weapons with longer ranges
will have an advantage.

To Life,
-Graht
Assistant Fearless Leader II
--

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Fri Jun 8 15:10:01 2001

Message no. 3 Graht writes:

> I just thought of a quick and easy hack.
>
> Subtract 1 from the Power of a weapon for every level of range beyond short.
>
> A weapon fired at a target within short range would be unaffected. Firing
> at a target at medium range would result in a -1 to the Power of the
> attack, -2 at Long range, and -3 Power at Extreme range.
>
> If you're in a confined space that heavy pistol is still king, but if you
> trading shots with someone down the street, the weapons with longer ranges
> will have an advantage.

Although potentially a decent rule, I've a couple of problems with it.
Firstly, heavy pistols would still have better armour piercing capabilities
at short range than assault rifles at short range. Secondly, the
effectiveness of weapons drops off greatly with range already, due to
increased TNs to hit, so I'd be hesitant to introduce a double whammy
effect. How realistic is such a Power dropoff over range?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Fri Jun 8 15:30:01 2001

Message no. 4 At 05:16 AM 6/9/2001 +1000, Damion Milliken wrote:
>Graht writes:
>
> > I just thought of a quick and easy hack.
> >
> > Subtract 1 from the Power of a weapon for every level of range beyond
> short.
> >
> > A weapon fired at a target within short range would be unaffected. Firing
> > at a target at medium range would result in a -1 to the Power of the
> > attack, -2 at Long range, and -3 Power at Extreme range.
> >
> > If you're in a confined space that heavy pistol is still king, but if you
> > trading shots with someone down the street, the weapons with longer ranges
> > will have an advantage.
>
>Although potentially a decent rule, I've a couple of problems with it.
>Firstly, heavy pistols would still have better armour piercing capabilities
>at short range than assault rifles at short range. Secondly, the
>effectiveness of weapons drops off greatly with range already, due to
>increased TNs to hit, so I'd be hesitant to introduce a double whammy
>effect. How realistic is such a Power dropoff over range?

I didn't say it was a great hack ;)

Yeah, TN penalties already take range into account. The longer the range,
the fewer successes you'll get statistically speaking. After making
adjustments for range an assault rifle is better then a pistol.

I'd also like to point something else out. If you make smgs and assault
rifles better then pistols at all ranges by adjusting the base power and
damage, then players are going to start using smgs and assault rifles more
often.

Shadowrun has always felt to me like an up close and personal kind of
environment, and I like that. If you make long range weapons more
preferable, then you change the atmosphere as players start trying to take
advantage of that and engaging in combat over greater distances.

For this reason I've never really had a problem with the heavy pistol's
9S. I prefer encounters where the players default close in so they can use
their heavy pistols. But that's just me :)

Just a thought.

To Life,
-Graht
Assistant Fearless Leader II
--

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Sat Jun 9 03:05:01 2001

Message no. 5 Graht writes:

> I'd also like to point something else out. If you make smgs and assault
> rifles better then pistols at all ranges by adjusting the base power and
> damage, then players are going to start using smgs and assault rifles more
> often.
>
> Shadowrun has always felt to me like an up close and personal kind of
> environment, and I like that. If you make long range weapons more
> preferable, then you change the atmosphere as players start trying to take
> advantage of that and engaging in combat over greater distances.

Well, issues of atmosphere aside, I do wonder why SWAT teams and the like
tend to use rifles rather than pistols...

For what it's worth, pistols have the rather great benefit of high
concealability, which rifles and other long arms do not. SMGs fit somewhere
in the middle. Largely in SR I've found that situations and roleplaying
context dictate what weapons are used more than weapon statistics.
Shadowrunners tend to either want to be discreet (ie use pistols), or be
able to rock and roll (ie use MMGs). However, I was noticing that a number
of players were consistantly choosing burst fire heavy pistols over any
other weapon, even for the large scale paramilitary engagements. Something
is wrong there!

A number of players have a tendancy to choose sniper rifles and other
extreme range long arms already in my game. I think they've actually used
them once between the 3 or 4 characters and 2 or 3 players who have chosen
them. And sniper rifles are pretty deadly under existing rules. The
setting, atmosphere, and context make them an unviable weapon choice. I
would think that assault rifles, even if improved to be a worthwhile weapon
choice based upon statistics alone (which they're currently not in SR),
would suffer from similar constraints on their use.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Sat Jun 9 04:05:03 2001

Message no. 6 actually, most Counter-terrorist teams use SMGs (The HK series of SMGs)
or compact assault rifles (The CAR-15 or the M-16 modified for .45 cal ammo
are examples of this)
the CAR-15 is preferred for it's high stopping power (It IS an assault
rifle) coupled with
relatively small packaging make a great weapon for close quarter combat.

As for Shadowrunner, I prefer pistols and SMGs with the occasional shotgun
for those troll guards that don't want to go down. (Small, light,
concealablity, easier to get).
Assault rifles are good for going abroad (like running with the Aztlan
rebels, going to Madagascar, Playing Pirate, Escort duty for a smuggler.)
Sniper and most other rifles are good for the back-up team that's gone
fishing while you heard the target to the kill zone. (You maneuver the
target into the rifleman's line of sight.)

As players and GMs, my old group never really modded much. We just threw
out what we diddn't like and kept what we did. We always felt that rifles
(assault or otherwise) and other big guns
(MMGs, LMGS) were for wilderness use, while SMGs, pistols and Shotguns were
more urban weapons.

-----Original Message-----
From: Damion Milliken [mailto:dam01@***.edu.au]
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 12:09 AM
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Subject: Re: Weapon Damages

Graht writes:

> I'd also like to point something else out. If you make smgs and assault
> rifles better then pistols at all ranges by adjusting the base power and
> damage, then players are going to start using smgs and assault rifles more

> often.
>
> Shadowrun has always felt to me like an up close and personal kind of
> environment, and I like that. If you make long range weapons more
> preferable, then you change the atmosphere as players start trying to take

> advantage of that and engaging in combat over greater distances.

Well, issues of atmosphere aside, I do wonder why SWAT teams and the like
tend to use rifles rather than pistols...

For what it's worth, pistols have the rather great benefit of high
concealability, which rifles and other long arms do not. SMGs fit somewhere
in the middle. Largely in SR I've found that situations and roleplaying
context dictate what weapons are used more than weapon statistics.
Shadowrunners tend to either want to be discreet (ie use pistols), or be
able to rock and roll (ie use MMGs). However, I was noticing that a number
of players were consistantly choosing burst fire heavy pistols over any
other weapon, even for the large scale paramilitary engagements. Something
is wrong there!

A number of players have a tendancy to choose sniper rifles and other
extreme range long arms already in my game. I think they've actually used
them once between the 3 or 4 characters and 2 or 3 players who have chosen
them. And sniper rifles are pretty deadly under existing rules. The
setting, atmosphere, and context make them an unviable weapon choice. I
would think that assault rifles, even if improved to be a worthwhile weapon
choice based upon statistics alone (which they're currently not in SR),
would suffer from similar constraints on their use.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Sat Jun 9 11:05:01 2001

Message no. 7 On Jun 9, 4:17am, Valeu John EMFA wrote:
> actually, most Counter-terrorist teams use SMGs (The HK series of
> SMGs)

The HK model designed to fit inside a briefcase is also
amusing... another one of the HK series (I forget which) is close to
the size of a machine pistol, albeit lacking in accuracy due to
lower-grade or removed (I forget which) sights.

BTW, has anyone else noticed the problem with the CC rules that a
folding stock and a non-folding stock have the same stats except that
the foldable one can remove the concealability modifier? The folding
version should have a higher nuyen cost...

Here's a set of stats I worked up using CC for an ultra-concealable weapon:

Frame: Assault Rifle
Power: 8
Damage: M
Mode: SA/BF/FA
Concealability: 3
Weight: 6
Ammo Capacity: 30
Ammo Loading: Clip
Mounts: Top, Barrel, Under
FCU: 3
DPV: 225

Option Level DP FCU Weight Conc Rcl
Barrel Reduction 8 -.5 -.25 +2 0
Bullpup 25 -.5 0 +2 1
Ceramic Comp 1 20 -.25 -.1 (+2) 0
Heavy Barrel 25 -.25 .5 0 1
Improved FCU 1 10 .25 0 0 0
Increased Power 1 80 -.25 .25 0 0
Selectable Clip 35 -.5 .1 -1 0
Smartgun 2 338 -.5 .25 0 0
Shock Pads 40 0 2.5 0 1
Folding Stock 40 0 .5 (-1) (1)
Sound Suppressor 150 -.25 .5 0 0
Grenade Launcher Underbarrel 360 -.25 2 0 0

Power: 9
Damage: M
Ranges: Short 0-45; Medium 46-135; Long 136-315; Extreme
316-495
Mode: SA/BF/FA
Concealability: 6 (8 vs MAD)
Concealability with Stock Unfolded: 5 (7 vs MAD, assuming part
of MAD detection keys off of shape)
Weight: 12.25
Ammo Capacity (Assault Rifle): 15/15
Ammo Loading (Assault Rifle): Dual Clip
Ammo Capacity (Grenade Launcher): 6 Mini-Grenades
Ammo Loading (Grenade Launcher): Magazine
Mounts: Top
Cost: 6,780 (DPV 1356)
Recoil Suppression: 3 (4 with Stock Unfolded)
Integral Smartsight-2 System

Normally added: Weight Cost
Rangefinder .1 150
Grenade Link .1 750

Total Cost: 7,680
Total Weight: 12.45

This weapon can probably best be described as a vastly upgraded
version of the Ares Alpha (CC pg 22). It is more powerful, more
concealable (including vs MAD and in sound), more versatile in many
respects, and has less recoil. On the other hand, it weighs over twice
as much, costs almost 4 times as much, and has a slightly shorter
range.

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Sun Jun 10 09:30:01 2001

Message no. 8 In article <5.1.0.14.0.20010608132923.03fd2e70@****.imcprint.com>, Graht
<davidb@***.100.100.99> writes
>I'd also like to point something else out. If you make smgs and assault
>rifles better then pistols at all ranges by adjusting the base power and
>damage, then players are going to start using smgs and assault rifles more
>often.

Only if you let them. It's a lot easier to hide a pistol than an AK-
47...

Note also how rarely anyone who *expects* to fight carries a pistol.
They're police weapons or last-ditch backups.
>
>Shadowrun has always felt to me like an up close and personal kind of
>environment, and I like that. If you make long range weapons more
>preferable, then you change the atmosphere as players start trying to take
>advantage of that and engaging in combat over greater distances.

Which is realistic, if not cinematic...

--
Paul J. Adam

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Sun Jun 10 10:45:01 2001

Message no. 9 >>Shadowrun has always felt to me like an up close and personal kind of
>>environment, and I like that. If you make long range weapons more
>>preferable, then you change the atmosphere as players start trying to take
>>advantage of that and engaging in combat over greater distances.

Pistol ranges are pretty short already- for any sort of open area (park,
docks, open streets, any wilderness), a SMG or AR (at minimum) is much
better, even by the current rules, because the enemy may so easily be out of
range. You don't want that, especially with those enemy mages...

What is lacking is consideration of the manuverability advantages of pistols
in close quarters battle. For example, suppose you want to enter a room
with your weapon ready, but all you have is an AR. Well, you need to open
the door somehow- with a pistol, thats no problem, but with the AR, you'll
probably need to open the door, then ready the gun again. In close
quarters, a rifle can be tough to manuever, and a lot more "ready weapon"
actions should be required. I'd require it each time somebody takes cover,
for example, since chances are they would have to manuever the gun out
around the cover in a fairly tight spot. Not a problem with a pistol,
however.

-Mongoose

From:	shadowrn@*******.com (shadowrn@*******.com)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Mon Jun 11 13:20:01 2001

Message no. 10 i would say that's ur system is good... only one reclaim
ur sniper rifle damage code is (for me) a bit too low , .308W or lapua mag
have heavy wounding capabilities (usually snipers use hollow points bullets
rarely FMJ) ... i would say S , not M and they have an ass kickin' speed ...
just a tought...

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Mon Jun 11 13:50:01 2001

Message no. 11 Choupidou@***.com writes:

> i would say that's ur system is good...

OK, thanks very much! Do you have any ideas on the Machine Pistol/SMG
ammunition issue? What would best represent these two weapon classes: Hold
Out, Light Pistol, Heavy Pistol, or something else?

> only one reclaim ur sniper rifle damage code is (for me) a bit too low ,
> .308W or lapua mag have heavy wounding capabilities (usually snipers use
> hollow points bullets rarely FMJ) ... i would say S , not M and they have
> an ass kickin' speed ... just a tought...

A sniper rifle firing Hollowpoints under my proposed rules would go from 13M
to 12S, with somewhat reduced armour pentrating capabilities. One firing
straight ball ammo would be 13M. Would this seem reasonable?

(Actually, I have been lead to belive that standard issue military ball ammo
is merely skirting the Geneva Convention when it comes to 'not being
hollowpoint' ammo. Is this true?)

Thanks for your input!

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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From:	shadowrn@*******.com (shadowrn@*******.com)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Mon Jun 11 14:10:01 2001

Message no. 12 13M ... it's reasonable for an FMJ ball...
For MP/SMG... for me , the damage code is the same (since in reality the ammo
is the same 9mm para and i don't speak for FN P90) PM are just smaller and
ammo capabilty is lower

For geneva conv ... its breaked if something is 100% lethal and causing
REALLY massive trauma (like dum-dum ...) but hollow point is a dum-dum
cousin... you know , nobod really respects this part of the conv... like the
miltary sniper moto ... one shot one kill... the geneva conv spirit is more
about chem weapons... it's a bit tweaky to apply u know
as a friend of mine always say ... "if u consider a law not to apply to you ,
it stops to apply to you" thank Mrs Waxweather...

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From:	shadowrn@*******.com (shadowrn@*******.com)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Mon Jun 11 15:50:03 2001

Message no. 13 On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:09:21 -0500 "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*****.com>
writes:
<SNIP>
> Well, you need to open
> the door somehow- with a pistol, thats no problem, but with the AR,
you'll
> probably need to open the door, then ready the gun again. In close
> quarters, a rifle can be tough to manuever, and a lot more "ready
weapon"
> actions should be required. I'd require it each time somebody takes
cover,
> for example, since chances are they would have to manuever the gun out
> around the cover in a fairly tight spot. Not a problem with a pistol,
> however.

Well, the thing is that the ready weapon action is more than bringing a
weapon to bear. It's also usually drawing the weapon. A ready weapon
action is a simple action and for the same action, you can quick draw,
and if you succeed, you can draw and fire. What you are suggesting should
not, IMO, use up more than a free action.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Tue Jun 12 05:35:05 2001

Message no. 14 According to Choupidou@***.com, on Mon, 11 Jun 2001 the word on the street
was...

> For geneva conv ... its breaked if something is 100% lethal and causing
> REALLY massive trauma (like dum-dum ...) but hollow point is a dum-dum
> cousin... you know , nobod really respects this part of the conv...

The Geneva Conventions prohibit ammunition that does not have a complete
jacket all the way to the tip of the bullet. Military ammunition is all
fully-jacketed for this reason, but police and civilian ammo is not limited
by it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Conformity is our tragedy
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Tue Jun 12 11:00:01 2001

Message no. 15 Gurth writes:

> The Geneva Conventions prohibit ammunition that does not have a complete
> jacket all the way to the tip of the bullet. Military ammunition is all
> fully-jacketed for this reason, but police and civilian ammo is not limited
> by it.

I was led to believe that standard military ball ammo has a thin copper
jacket, and a steel penetrator underneath that has a blunted nose, so that
there is a gap or bubble under the tip of the copper jacket in front of the
steel penetrator. Here, I'll try my hand at some ASCII art <grin>:
__
/ \
/ Air\
//----\\
// \\
|| ||
|| Steel||
|| ||<-Copper jacket
||______||
----------

Or a configuration somewhat similar to this.

The net effect being that on impact the steel penetrator pushes forward,
shredding the copper, and the gap in the tip generates an effect similar to
that of a hollowpoint round.

Is this at all accurate?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Tue Jun 12 16:20:01 2001

Message no. 16 On Jun 11, 2:02pm, Damion Milliken wrote:
> (Actually, I have been lead to belive that standard issue military ball ammo
> is merely skirting the Geneva Convention when it comes to 'not being
> hollowpoint' ammo. Is this true?)

I don't know about this, but the article at the following URL may be
of interest:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/319/7207/403

Yours,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Weapon Damages
Date:	Wed Jun 13 06:30:06 2001

Message no. 17 According to Damion Milliken, on Tue, 12 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...

> I was led to believe that standard military ball ammo has a thin copper
> jacket, and a steel penetrator underneath that has a blunted nose, so that
> there is a gap or bubble under the tip of the copper jacket in front of the
> steel penetrator. Here, I'll try my hand at some ASCII art <grin>:
[snip]

The only round I know of that has (had?) this is feature is Russian 5.45x39
mm, but with lead rather than steel (even steel-cored rounds have a soft
metal between the core and the jacket). Anyway, it was caused by
manufacturing limitations rather than specific design.

> The net effect being that on impact the steel penetrator pushes forward,
> shredding the copper, and the gap in the tip generates an effect similar to
> that of a hollowpoint round.

The photos of fired rounds of this type which I've seen, had the tip bent
rather than the core pushed forward through the jacket. This would affect
its wounding potential, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Conformity is our tragedy
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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