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Message no. 1
From: Trollrunner@***.com Trollrunner@***.com
Subject: Weapon descriptions
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:03:37 EST
I was reading the CC the other day and I came away with some questions. Now
I'm not a gun enthusiast IRL so excuse me if this sounds stupid but what does
a PAC look like/size/ real world equivalent?
I know what assault rifles and shotguns are like, but what are some real
world equivalents for
light pistols (.38 special?)
heavy pistols (.45?)
LMG, MMG, HMG (i have no idea)
assault cannons

Thanks
big Q
Message no. 2
From: Wagemage wagemage@**.rr.com
Subject: Weapon descriptions
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:29:17 -0500
All below is IMHO...

>light pistols (.38 special?)

Anything from a .22 pistol up to about 9mm/.380 (which rides the fine line
between heavy & light)

>heavy pistols (.45?)

Anything above (or including) a 9mm. 10mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, .50A&E, .44 Mag etc.

>LMG, MMG, HMG (i have no idea)

These are more distinguished in the game than in real life, but an LMG
would basically be something like the M249 SAW, or the M60.

MMG is basically the same thing. (Like I said in the real world these are
distinguished more by role than caliber or damage)

HMGs are monsters like the .50cal machine guns you see mounted on jeeps,
tanks and hummers.

>assault cannons

At this level there really isn't a whole lot honestly. There are a few
massive anti-materiel rifles like the Barett .50cal, and theres a european
one chambered in 20 or 25mm I believe. Of course your using explosive,
incindiary, dpu saboted thermonuclear rounds ;) to make it that much more
powerful.
Message no. 3
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Weapon descriptions
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:40:36 +0100
According to Trollrunner@***.com, on Mon, 27 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> I was reading the CC the other day and I came away with some questions. Now
> I'm not a gun enthusiast IRL so excuse me if this sounds stupid but what does
> a PAC look like/size/ real world equivalent?

There's a picture of the Panther cannon in the Street Samurai Catalog;
Because it has illustrations of the gear it covers this book, and Fields
of Fire, are still handy things to buy even though the Cannon Companion
superseded them.

> I know what assault rifles and shotguns are like, but what are some real
> world equivalents for
> light pistols (.38 special?)

Walther PP(K), SIG 230, small revolvers.

> heavy pistols (.45?)

Colt M1911, Beretta 92, Desert Eagle, big revolvers.

> LMG

M249, Negev, RPD.

> MMG

MAG, M60, PK.

> HMG (i have no idea)

M2 HB, DShK, NSV.

> assault cannons

None, IMHO, though you could argue that modern "anti-materiel" rifles (i.e.
12.7 mm and up sniper rifles) can be seen as assault cannons.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: Jonathan Choy jjchoy@*********.net
Subject: Weapon descriptions
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:18:30 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wagemage" <wagemage@**.rr.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: 27 November 2000 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: Weapon descriptions


> All below is IMHO...
>
> >light pistols (.38 special?)
>
> Anything from a .22 pistol up to about 9mm/.380 (which rides the fine line
> between heavy & light)
>
> >heavy pistols (.45?)
>
> Anything above (or including) a 9mm. 10mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, .50A&E, .44 Mag
etc.
>
> >LMG, MMG, HMG (i have no idea)
>
> These are more distinguished in the game than in real life, but an LMG
> would basically be something like the M249 SAW, or the M60.
>
> MMG is basically the same thing. (Like I said in the real world these are
> distinguished more by role than caliber or damage)
USMC has started using a weapon designated the M-240G - it's the coaxial
machine gun from an M1A1 Abrams tank, being handed out to infantry to use as
a heavy SAW... if it's man portable, it's ALMOST an mmg? Otherwise, I'd say
that the '60 is more of an MMG than an LMG...

>
> HMGs are monsters like the .50cal machine guns you see mounted on jeeps,
> tanks and hummers.
>
And then of course there's the belt-fed grenade launchers (Mk 49 is one
designation, don't know the M-designation)... the Marines have a contingency
wherein they use aluminum training rounds for direct fire against soft
targets if they run out of anything... spiffier.

> >assault cannons
>
> At this level there really isn't a whole lot honestly. There are a few
> massive anti-materiel rifles like the Barett .50cal, and theres a european
> one chambered in 20 or 25mm I believe. Of course your using explosive,
> incindiary, dpu saboted thermonuclear rounds ;) to make it that much more
> powerful.
The Cobra(?) i think, in Robocop, would be a decent example of this - too
big / close range for it to be a sniper rifle.
There are also a couple of anti-tank rifles from WWII that were used in the
'eastern bloc' nations as sniper rifles, I don't recall the designations off
the top of my head, though.

Tetsujin no Oni
Jon Choy
'Of course I feel dirty... I'm from the Horde!'
Message no. 5
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Weapon descriptions
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:08:11 +0100
According to Jonathan Choy, on Tue, 28 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> USMC has started using a weapon designated the M-240G - it's the coaxial
> machine gun from an M1A1 Abrams tank, being handed out to infantry to use as
> a heavy SAW...

The M240 is the US version of the MAG (or, if you're British, the L7). Same
class as the old M60 that finally seems to have been ditched.

> if it's man portable, it's ALMOST an mmg? Otherwise, I'd say that the
> '60 is more of an MMG than an LMG...

I see SR's MMGs as modern-day GPMGs, so the MAG (M240, L7) and M60 I would
classify as MMGs in SR.

> The Cobra(?) i think, in Robocop, would be a decent example of this - too
> big / close range for it to be a sniper rifle.

That "Cobra" is simply a Barrett M82 with some stuff tacked onto it. But it
could well be the inspiration for assault cannons in SR (or cyberpunk games
in general).

> There are also a couple of anti-tank rifles from WWII that were used in the
> 'eastern bloc' nations as sniper rifles, I don't recall the designations off
> the top of my head, though.

In WWII, or today? There are several 12.7 mm and even 14.5 mm sniper rifles
coming out of countries like Hungary these days, for example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Weapon descriptions
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:26:57 -0800 (PST)
<snipt!(TM)>
> > There are also a couple of anti-tank rifles from
WWII that were used in the 'eastern bloc' nations as
sniper rifles, I don't recall the designations off the
top of my head, though.
>
> In WWII, or today? There are several 12.7 mm and
even 14.5 mm sniper rifles coming out of countries
like Hungary these days, for example.
> Gurth@******.nl -

TOTALLY not a gun geek, but if I had to hazard a guess
as to what Jonathon's talking about, I'd be thinking
recoilless rifle.

But then, what do I know? :)

*Doc' looks down the barrel of his rifle, squeezing
the trigger repeatedly. "It won't fire..."*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 7
From: Xyron-II Zoscho@***.de
Subject: Weapon descriptions
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 02:38:18 +0100
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
> <snipt!(TM)>
> > > There are also a couple of anti-tank rifles from
> WWII that were used in the 'eastern bloc' nations as
> sniper rifles, I don't recall the designations off the
> top of my head, though.
> >
> > In WWII, or today? There are several 12.7 mm and
> even 14.5 mm sniper rifles coming out of countries
> like Hungary these days, for example.
> > Gurth@******.nl -
>
> TOTALLY not a gun geek, but if I had to hazard a guess
> as to what Jonathon's talking about, I'd be thinking
> recoilless rifle.

Ever saw "The Jackal" (the newer one, with Bruce Willis and Richard Gere)?
The you can see a 14.5mm HMG/AC in Action (at least they claim so).

> But then, what do I know? :)

Not _that_ much about guns? ;)

(Well, me neither, but who cares?)

> *Doc' looks down the barrel of his rifle, squeezing
> the trigger repeatedly. "It won't fire..."*

*slips a clip into the magazine well an switsches the safety off*
"Here, have some Ammo..."

> ====> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)


See ya,
~ Xyron-II
--
| Xyron-II (not the first, for whatever reason)
<[XXXXXXXXXXXX]|==================================================-
| If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid.
Message no. 8
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Weapon descriptions
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:25:36 +0100
According to Rand Ratinac, on Wed, 29 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> > In WWII, or today? There are several 12.7 mm and
> > even 14.5 mm sniper rifles coming out of countries
> > like Hungary these days, for example.
>
> TOTALLY not a gun geek, but if I had to hazard a guess
> as to what Jonathon's talking about, I'd be thinking
> recoilless rifle.

A recoilless rifle is not a sniper rifle, in fact they're not even close...
The only thing that comes close is a Croatian 20 mm weapon rifle that
fires standard automatic cannon rounds and vents much of the propellant
gases backward to create a semi-recoilless effect. But it's still nowhere
near SR's assault cannons, especially because the latter don't have a
backblast.

FWIW, I tried creating an assault cannon once using 3G3, but didn't find a
solution to make a weapon that's as powerful, as long-ranged, and as
portable as they are in SR. The first two are easy to achieve, but the
weight always ends up too high to make the weapon portable.

> But then, what do I know? :)

You said it... ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Jonathan Choy jjchoy@*********.net
Subject: Weapon descriptions
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:39:09 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: 28 November 2000 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: Weapon descriptions


> According to Jonathan Choy, on Tue, 28 Nov 2000 the word on the street
was...
>
> > USMC has started using a weapon designated the M-240G - it's the coaxial
> > machine gun from an M1A1 Abrams tank, being handed out to infantry to
use as
> > a heavy SAW...
>
> The M240 is the US version of the MAG (or, if you're British, the L7).
Same
> class as the old M60 that finally seems to have been ditched.
>
> > if it's man portable, it's ALMOST an mmg? Otherwise, I'd say that the
> > '60 is more of an MMG than an LMG...
>
> I see SR's MMGs as modern-day GPMGs, so the MAG (M240, L7) and M60 I would
> classify as MMGs in SR.
>
> > The Cobra(?) i think, in Robocop, would be a decent example of this -
too
> > big / close range for it to be a sniper rifle.
>
> That "Cobra" is simply a Barrett M82 with some stuff tacked onto it. But
it
> could well be the inspiration for assault cannons in SR (or cyberpunk
games
> in general).
Seems like it... (especially the version that was in the Robocop arcade
side-scroll-shooter)
>
> > There are also a couple of anti-tank rifles from WWII that were used in
the
> > 'eastern bloc' nations as sniper rifles, I don't recall the designations
off
> > the top of my head, though.
>
> In WWII, or today? There are several 12.7 mm and even 14.5 mm sniper
rifles
> coming out of countries like Hungary these days, for example.
Early to mid 90s, probably similar/same weapon in Hungary. Tonight I'll go
digging to find my copy of Dark Conspiracy so I don't have to take a trip to
the library to leaf through Janes Infantry Weapons again. ;>

Tetsujin no Oni
Jonathan Choy
'Of course I feel dirty... I'm from the Horde!'
Message no. 10
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Weapon descriptions
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:15:03 +0100
According to Jonathan Choy, on Wed, 29 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> > That "Cobra" is simply a Barrett M82 with some stuff tacked onto it.
But it
> > could well be the inspiration for assault cannons in SR (or cyberpunk games
> > in general).
>
> Seems like it... (especially the version that was in the Robocop arcade
> side-scroll-shooter)

I don't remember that one (the gun, that is; I do remember the game) so
I'll take your word for it :) Weapons in SF movies, though, are usually
existing ones with stuff added on to disguise them.

> Early to mid 90s, probably similar/same weapon in Hungary. Tonight I'll go
> digging to find my copy of Dark Conspiracy so I don't have to take a trip to
> the library to leaf through Janes Infantry Weapons again. ;>

In that case, you're probably thinking of weapons like the Gepard (no, not
the German anti-aircraft vehicle :) and the Destroyer. In SR, these would
roughly equate to the Barret 121, IMO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Paul J. Adam ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Weapon descriptions
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 00:21:35 +0000
In article <00112920173602.00524@***************>, Gurth
<gurth@******.nl> writes
>In that case, you're probably thinking of weapons like the Gepard (no, not
>the German anti-aircraft vehicle :) and the Destroyer. In SR, these would
>roughly equate to the Barret 121, IMO.

The heavy-calibre sniper rifles around today are "assault cannon". The
Barret 121 is subsonic (has to be, to be quiet) and from SR material
(Elven Fire, for instance) seems to be a large-bore suppressed "elephant
gun" in .655 or thereabouts (in 'Elven Fire' the Ranger SM-3 is given as
.655, which I guess is an attempt to reconcile its damage to its
silence)

So, an assault cannon fires ~.50" rounds at Mach 3 out to long ranges...
a sniper rifle fire ~.75" rounds subsonic to much shorter ranges but can
do so _quietly_.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 12
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Weapon descriptions
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:12:25 -0800 (PST)
<snipt!(TM)>
> A recoilless rifle is not a sniper rifle, in fact
they're not even close...

Oh, THAT much I know...:)

> The only thing that comes close is a Croatian 20 mm
weapon rifle that fires standard automatic cannon
rounds and vents much of the propellant gases backward
to create a semi-recoilless effect. But it's still
nowhere near SR's assault cannons, especially because
the latter don't have a backblast.
>
> FWIW, I tried creating an assault cannon once using
3G3, but didn't find a solution to make a weapon
that's as powerful, as long-ranged, and as portable as
they are in SR. The first two are easy to achieve, but
the weight always ends up too high to make the weapon
portable.
>
> > But then, what do I know? :)
>
> You said it... ;)
> Gurth@******.nl -

Heh heh heh...

Just to be clear, though, Jonathon was talking about
some big WWII guns, and then you started talking about
sniper rifles. All I was saying was that he might have
been thinking about recoilless rifles...:)

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Message no. 13
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Weapon descriptions
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:09:41 +0100
According to Paul J. Adam, on Thu, 30 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> So, an assault cannon fires ~.50" rounds at Mach 3 out to long ranges...
> a sniper rifle fire ~.75" rounds subsonic to much shorter ranges but can
> do so _quietly_.

Didn't we just establish that it's very hard to try and relate RL calibers
to SR weapons? :) I made the comparison because it seems obvious to me that
the Barret 121 was inspired by the RL Barrett 82 and similar weapons, not
because they are similar in performance.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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