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From:	Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject:	:) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Tue, 13 May 1997 10:30:00 -0400

Message no. 1 So I picked up Fields of Fire and Shadowtech about two months ago and
they've really enhanced gaming for my sammies. One afterthought however.
I know I've brought this up on the list before but I still find the rules
on ambidexterity a bit confusing. I know you factor the damage out on two
different sized weapons and even the same sized weapons but, correct me if
I'm wrong, do you get double the dice to roll because you are using two
weapons? For example (this is very confusing) guy has two sets of
retractable spurs on each hand. I know this come under unarmed combat,
cyber implantry weapons: spurs but does he get to roll twice the number of
his skill dice and simply have the same damage as he has with one hand or
does this not count as using a weapon in a second hand?
And if the sizes of the weapons are the same (like two swords),
how could you adapt this rule? And let's say you are using something like
a rapier and a fineblade. If you have a 4 in unarmed, 6 in edged weapons,
and 8 in a specialized skill like rapier & fineblade you get eight dice
to roll but if you didn't have that specialized skill do you roll 12 dice
(6 in edged weapons twice) with higher target number for using one weapon
in the offhand?

Later,
Dust

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: :) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Tue, 13 May 1997 17:47:31 +0100

Message no. 2 On Tue, 13 May 1997, Dust wrote:

> I know I've brought this up on the list before but I still find the rules
> on ambidexterity a bit confusing. I know you factor the damage out on two
> different sized weapons and even the same sized weapons but, correct me if
> I'm wrong, do you get double the dice to roll because you are using two
> weapons?
The wording is ambiguous but I read it as you get to roll your basic skill
and your special skill plus combat pool (I'm not sure if its specified but
I limit teh Combat Pool to teh Special skill).

> For example (this is very confusing) guy has two sets of
> retractable spurs on each hand. I know this come under unarmed combat,
> cyber implantry weapons: spurs but does he get to roll twice the number of
> his skill dice
I'd say no, as simply buying 1 point in the special skill would
suddenly allow him to double the number of dice he rolls. This would lead
to all munchkins buying every combination of weapons (Rapier and dagger,
Twin balisong, twin cyber spurs) all at a rating 1 special skill so they
can double their dice.

> and simply have the same damage as he has with one hand or
> does this not count as using a weapon in a second hand?
The damage would stay teh same I believe (average power, and both damage
codes are the same so they stay teh same also). But you do get to roll
your special skill dice on top of your base skill.

The Digital Mage aka Grant Erswell - mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Sadder still to watch it die, than never to have known it"
-Rush, Losing It

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: :) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Tue, 13 May 1997 11:30:18 -0600

Message no. 3 Dust wrote:
|
| So I picked up Fields of Fire and Shadowtech about two months ago and
| they've really enhanced gaming for my sammies. One afterthought however.
| I know I've brought this up on the list before but I still find the rules
| on ambidexterity a bit confusing.

[snip]

Everytime this comes up the advice seems to be the same. Don't use
the ambidexterity rules. Maybe reduce the offhand modifier by one
per 2 levels of ambidexterity. And factor in all the recoil for both
weapons (Gurth's idea). So if the offhand modifier is +4 (I can't
remember :( and the PC has Ambidexterity 6, he only has a +1
modifier for his left hand. But if he's firing two ingrams on BF,
then he's got a +6 to each shot. Sound good?

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	Dale Talbert <LuvsAmanda@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: :) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Tue, 13 May 1997 15:09:51 -0400

Message no. 4 In a message dated 97-05-13 10:37:08 EDT, rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG (Dust)
writes:

<< And let's say you are using something like
a rapier and a fineblade. If you have a 4 in unarmed, 6 in edged weapons,
and 8 in a specialized skill like rapier & fineblade you get eight dice
to roll but if you didn't have that specialized skill do you roll 12 dice
(6 in edged weapons twice) with higher target number for using one weapon
in the offhand?

Later,
Dust
>>

Actually, if you want to get technical, a rapier is not an edged weapon. It
is a thrusting weapon. The edges are not sharp (as compared to other swords.
-Dale

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: :) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Tue, 13 May 1997 22:35:21 +0100

Message no. 5 David Buehrer said on 11:30/13 May 97...

> Everytime this comes up the advice seems to be the same. Don't use
> the ambidexterity rules. Maybe reduce the offhand modifier by one
> per 2 levels of ambidexterity.

That would make the skill less powerful, but also makes odd levels
useless.

> And factor in all the recoil for both weapons (Gurth's idea).

I can't take the credit for that one, as SRII states clearly that recoil
from one weapon affects the other.

> So if the offhand modifier is +4 (I can't remember :( and the PC has
> Ambidexterity 6, he only has a +1 modifier for his left hand.

Under the ambidexterity rules, the modifier is equal to the skill you're
using. For example, when shooting a pistol with your off hand, you add
your Firearms skill to the TN (and then subtract your Ambidexterity
skill, if you have that).

In the SRII rules for firing two weapons, each gun gets an automatic +2 to
the TN (in addition to the recoil from the other weapon), and smartlinked
weapons or laser sights don't give any TN reductions.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Everybody's tired of something.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: :) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Tue, 13 May 1997 15:03:07 -0600

Message no. 6 Gurth wrote:
|
| David Buehrer said on 11:30/13 May 97...
|
| > Everytime this comes up the advice seems to be the same. Don't use
| > the ambidexterity rules. Maybe reduce the offhand modifier by one
| > per 2 levels of ambidexterity.
|
| That would make the skill less powerful, but also makes odd levels
| useless.

Okay, try this. Make ambidexterity an ability. Ambidexterity
offsets the off-hand modifier. The cost is set by the individual GM
(I'd require 42 KP, the cost of a rating 6 skill) and requires a lot
of practice (time) if purchased after character creation. Set the
off-hand modifier for a weapon at +2. So if a person is firing 2
weapons they would be at +2 and +4. If the person has ambidexterity
the modifers are +2 and +2. If they use a single weapon in either
hand there is no penalty.

| > And factor in all the recoil for both weapons (Gurth's idea).
|
| I can't take the credit for that one, as SRII states clearly that recoil
| from one weapon affects the other.

Well, then take credit for pointing it out so elequently :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: :) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Tue, 13 May 1997 17:05:48 -0400

Message no. 7 At 10:30 AM 5/13/97 -0400, you wrote:
> So I picked up Fields of Fire and Shadowtech about two months ago and
>they've really enhanced gaming for my sammies. One afterthought however.
>I know I've brought this up on the list before but I still find the rules
>on ambidexterity a bit confusing. I know you factor the damage out on two
>different sized weapons and even the same sized weapons but, correct me if
>I'm wrong, do you get double the dice to roll because you are using two
>weapons? For example (this is very confusing) guy has two sets of
>retractable spurs on each hand. I know this come under unarmed combat,
>cyber implantry weapons: spurs but does he get to roll twice the number of
>his skill dice and simply have the same damage as he has with one hand or
>does this not count as using a weapon in a second hand?
> And if the sizes of the weapons are the same (like two swords),
>how could you adapt this rule? And let's say you are using something like
>a rapier and a fineblade. If you have a 4 in unarmed, 6 in edged weapons,
>and 8 in a specialized skill like rapier & fineblade you get eight dice
>to roll but if you didn't have that specialized skill do you roll 12 dice
>(6 in edged weapons twice) with higher target number for using one weapon
>in the offhand?
>

I believe the way the two weapon melee rules work are as follows. A special
skill in the fighting style is required eg. Skill Sword and Dagger. One
weapon is required to me smaller than the other (unless they are both
knives). The base damage is the average of the damage for the two weapons
(round down, of course). Attack rolls are made with the sum of the dice the
person would have for each individual weapon (so, if it were a sword and
dagger, and the person had armed 4, edged 6, sword 8 skill, they would use
8+6 dice to attack). Combat pool is limited to a number of dice equal to
the level of the special skill.

As the rules work, they sound like they might be overpowered, but
there are a couple of things to consider. First, damage and reach are both
lower than if the person were using just the larger weapon. Additionally,
the limiting of combat pool to the level of special skill also reduces the
advantage of this method, because a GM could easily rule that no one could
legitimately start with a skill higher than 2 or 3 in two weapon combat (how
many people are there that know that kind of thing and are really good?). I
like the rules because it gives physads a cool looking combat style, that is
good, but not over-powered.

--DT

From:	David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: :) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Tue, 13 May 1997 17:23:14 -0400

Message no. 8 At 05:47 PM 5/13/97 +0100, you wrote:
>On Tue, 13 May 1997, Dust wrote:
>
>> I know I've brought this up on the list before but I still find the rules
>> on ambidexterity a bit confusing. I know you factor the damage out on two
>> different sized weapons and even the same sized weapons but, correct me if
>> I'm wrong, do you get double the dice to roll because you are using two
>> weapons?
>The wording is ambiguous but I read it as you get to roll your basic skill
>and your special skill plus combat pool (I'm not sure if its specified but
>I limit teh Combat Pool to teh Special skill).
>
>> For example (this is very confusing) guy has two sets of
>> retractable spurs on each hand. I know this come under unarmed combat,
>> cyber implantry weapons: spurs but does he get to roll twice the number of
>> his skill dice
>I'd say no, as simply buying 1 point in the special skill would
>suddenly allow him to double the number of dice he rolls. This would lead
>to all munchkins buying every combination of weapons (Rapier and dagger,
>Twin balisong, twin cyber spurs) all at a rating 1 special skill so they
>can double their dice.
>
I'd say that for unarmed/cyber weapons, even if they are paired there is no
doubling of dice with a special skill. After all, most everyone has two
hands and two feet, but you don't let them roll four times their skill.

As for melee weapons, there is a big difference between a guy with a sword,
and a guy with a sword and a knife (if he knows what he's doing). You'd end
up getting your weapon caught up with one weapon and he'd kill you with the
other (read the Forgotten Realms (AD&D) books by R.A. Salvatore about Drizzt
if you want some fairly cool description of paired weapon fighting).
According to FOF, the special skill does basically allow you do double your
attack dice, but like I already posted, base damage and reach are both less
to offset that (plus, combat pool is very limited). If you want to prevent
munchkins from taking the special skill with everything, tell them they
can't. It's that simple. I've done a little basic martial arts training
(sort of) with escrima (sp?) sticks, and it ain't no peice of cake to learn.

--DT

From:	tom Cone <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: :) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Tue, 13 May 1997 12:49:51 -1000

Message no. 9 >Actually, if you want to get technical...
A rapier is an edged weapon, but a foil (which is what is used in
fencing) isn't. Granted that the rapier is still pretty much a thrusting
weapon.

Brother-1. Decker for hire.
>Visit Dot's Deck Technologies! Just north of the Sea-TAC!

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: :) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Tue, 13 May 1997 23:41:31 +0100

Message no. 10 In message <2.2.32.19970513212314.0072effc@********.cis.yale.edu>, David
Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU> writes
>As for melee weapons, there is a big difference between a guy with a sword,
>and a guy with a sword and a knife (if he knows what he's doing). You'd end
>up getting your weapon caught up with one weapon and he'd kill you with the
>other

Watch Last of the Mohicans for this happening several times.

>If you want to prevent
>munchkins from taking the special skill with everything, tell them they
>can't. It's that simple. I've done a little basic martial arts training
>(sort of) with escrima (sp?) sticks, and it ain't no peice of cake to learn.

If nothing else, it's a rare and distinctive skill. Being too easily
recognised as "the guy with the sword and the axe who really kicks butt
in a close-up fight" can get you killed in a hurry if you're not
careful.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: :) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Wed, 14 May 1997 13:28:31 GMT

Message no. 11 David Thompson writes
>
> I believe the way the two weapon melee rules work are as follows.
correct.

> As the rules work, they sound like they might be overpowered, but
> there are a couple of things to consider. First, damage and reach are both
> lower than if the person were using just the larger weapon. Additionally,
> the limiting of combat pool to the level of special skill also reduces the
> advantage of this method, because a GM could easily rule that no one could
> legitimately start with a skill higher than 2 or 3 in two weapon combat (how
> many people are there that know that kind of thing and are really good?). I
> like the rules because it gives physads a cool looking combat style, that is
> good, but not over-powered.
>
Yes. Armed combat 6 and special skill 6 does allow 18 dice, physical
adepst can get really insane. But to blew your combat pool
offensively now try dodging the friend of the guy you just minced
whos bring a shotgun to bear on your vicinity :)

I have not hand problems with this rule, sure its lethal but i've had
NPC's use it and show just how deadly it is a few time and the PC's
don't buy it, why because the karma costs are so high. You might want
to be careful of folks buying to very low levels just to double
attack dice, but higher and its ok. There is a mundane NPC in one of
the Shadowland adventures that uses this (SL4 i think) with twin
knives, very leathal but he could just as well have been packing an
Ares predator loading APDS and smart as two knives which as a simple
action to fire is two attacks, no skill roll to defend and AP so its
still not as bad as guns as long as the players play by the spirit of
the rules, do watch it near a munchkin though.

Mark

From:	Shaun Sides <arch@****.ABTS.NET>
Subject:	Re: :) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Wed, 14 May 1997 11:20:37 -0500

Message no. 12 Date: 13 May 97 Time: 15:09
Subject: Re: :) weapon in second hand fighti

TO: Dale Talbert

> Actually, if you want to get technical, a rapier is not an edged
> weapon. It is a thrusting weapon. The edges are not sharp (as
> compared to other swords. -Dale

Well, no, an epee has rather dulled edges. A rapier is commonly
extremely sharp.

a chaoidh teabadaich,

Shaun Sides
arch@****.net
http://www.abts.net/~arch

Morgan:
I heard you have balls big enough to come in a dumptruck, but
you don't look like much to me

Dalton:
Opinions vary
-- from Roadhouse

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: :) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Wed, 14 May 1997 17:56:07 EDT

Message no. 13 On Tue, 13 May 1997 10:30:00 -0400 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
writes:
<snippy>
>do you get double the dice to roll because you are using two
>weapons?

No. You get your skill (usu. Armed Combat) plus the special skill (like
sword and dagger).

<snipped example with two cyberspurs>

> And if the sizes of the weapons are the same (like two swords),
>how could you adapt this rule?

I'd say you either ignore the part about how the weapons may not be the
same size unless they are Reach 0. My personal opinion is to either scrap
most of the Ambidexterity rules and use the Edge presented in the
Companion, or just not allow it in general. One thing to note: require
the special skill, whatever you do.

>And let's say you are using something like
>a rapier and a fineblade. If you have a 4 in unarmed, 6 in edged
weapons,
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Does that really matter?

>and 8 in a specialized skill like rapier & fineblade you get eight dice
>to roll but if you didn't have that specialized skill do you roll 12
dice
>(6 in edged weapons twice) with higher target number for using one
weapon
>in the offhand?

The off-hand mod for Armed Combat is +4, I believe. Ambidexterity removes
the off-hand mod by one for every two points of the skill, I think. Don't
own the book, though.

You know, this topic is showing up an awful lot of late. It's really
bordering on ridiculous.

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	DT <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: :) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Wed, 14 May 1997 23:34:42 -0400

Message no. 14 On Wed, 14 May 1997, L Canthros wrote:

> On Tue, 13 May 1997 10:30:00 -0400 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
> writes:
> <snippy>
> >do you get double the dice to roll because you are using two
> >weapons?
>
> No. You get your skill (usu. Armed Combat) plus the special skill (like
> sword and dagger).
>
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. What I posted earlier was that you
effectively get twice your skill, and can add combat pool up to the rating
of the special skill. I don't have my books here, but I'm pretty sure.
Could someone actually check FOF?

--DT

From:	Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: :) weapon in second hand fighting
Date:	Thu, 15 May 1997 15:23:36 +1000

Message no. 15 > As the rules work, they sound like they might be overpowered, but
> there are a couple of things to consider. First, damage and reach are
both
> lower than if the person were using just the larger weapon.
Additionally,
> the limiting of combat pool to the level of special skill also reduces
the
> advantage of this method, because a GM could easily rule that no one
could
> legitimately start with a skill higher than 2 or 3 in two weapon combat
(how
> many people are there that know that kind of thing and are really good?).
I
> like the rules because it gives physads a cool looking combat style, that
is
> good, but not over-powered.

I interpreted the rules in exactly the same way as you did. One additional
limitation that I put on it though is that they only get to use the
ambidexterity rules when they are doing the attacking, if they are
defending, then they have to use their normal skill with one of the weapons
they are holding. This way they still burn through Combat Pool if they are
being attacked by multiple attackers.

Ray.

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