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Message no. 1
From: Scam <scam@******.MUR.CSU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:06:28 +1100
On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Tim Cooper wrote:

> > I let the Sam have skill and combat dice. He *believes* his weapon will
> > work, it always has before....
>
> Only problem here is that it then becomes too easy for a Sam or any
> mundane with a gun to take out spirits..
> They become almost ineffective in any sort of manifest form.
>
Well they've still got their Immunity To Normal Weapons power which for
higher force spirits is -Immense-

Which brings me to another question I've had for awhile ......

@ combat situation.
@ Samurai with an LMG loading explosive ammo fires ten rounds at a force 4
true form insect spirit.
@ Base damage is 7S
@ 10 rounds pumps it up to 17D (not taking into account any extra staging
over D to the power, read the damage code for the Ares HV-LMG in FoF to
see what I mean)
@ explosive rounds add +1. ???

So is that +1 for the first round, for every round, for every three (my
personal choice)??

we could have damage codes of 18D, 20D or 27D here depending upon how you
read the rules.

27D is going to mess up nearly _any_ spirit under Force 11 which makes
the whole "Guns are useless against spirits" argument silly to say the
least and all the Samurai needs is a single success.

Scam

*******************************************************************
* scam@**********.mur.csu.edu.au *
* http://itclub.mur.csu.edu.au/~scam *
*******************************************************************
Message no. 2
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:09:52 +1100
> 27D is going to mess up nearly _any_ spirit under Force 11 which makes
> the whole "Guns are useless against spirits" argument silly to say the
> least and all the Samurai needs is a single success.

A good point, but all the bug needs is two successes on a dodge test and
that 27D hits a poor innocent wall. If the bug has a) decent armour and b)
decent threat, it should be possible.

(Maybe I should add a qualifier: c) the GM rolls the way our GM does. I
hate his dice. :( )

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: Pete <Pete@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 04:21:32 +0000
In article <Pine.LNX.3.91.961119145746.32737A-
100000@******.mur.csu.edu.au>, Scam <scam@******.MUR.CSU.EDU.AU> writes

>> Only problem here is that it then becomes too easy for a Sam or any
>> mundane with a gun to take out spirits..
>> They become almost ineffective in any sort of manifest form.
>>
>Well they've still got their Immunity To Normal Weapons power which for
>higher force spirits is -Immense-

Amongst other things..

>Which brings me to another question I've had for awhile ......
>
>@ combat situation.
>@ Samurai with an LMG loading explosive ammo fires ten rounds at a force 4
>true form insect spirit.
>@ Base damage is 7S
>@ 10 rounds pumps it up to 17D (not taking into account any extra staging
>over D to the power, read the damage code for the Ares HV-LMG in FoF to
>see what I mean)
>@ explosive rounds add +1. ???
>
>So is that +1 for the first round, for every round, for every three (my
>personal choice)??

I tend to allow it for every round, but then none of my players want the
+10 penalty that comes with punching ten rounds at a target. Even with
imp gas vent III, that still leaves +7 to hit, 5 if smartlink 2, but
then there are the modifiers for movement, cover, whether the creature
is manifest or not, plus modifiers for light conditions etc, all in all
no matter what compensation you have, the penalties even it out..

>we could have damage codes of 18D, 20D or 27D here depending upon how you
>read the rules.

It is possible to get those totals, but only in the *most* favourable of
conditions, and only roaches move relatively slowly anyway unless you
model them on Asian roaches which can fly... Again movement penalties
and initiative play a big hand. Sure you can spray 10 rounds at a
target, but unless all ten rounds hit it, you don't get the +## to the
damage.

>27D is going to mess up nearly _any_ spirit under Force 11 which makes
>the whole "Guns are useless against spirits" argument silly to say the
>least and all the Samurai needs is a single success.

It will make a mess of a spirit, yes, but like I said, mitigating
circumstances will prevent this total from becoming a game reality.
That's why penalties were invented. Any street sam who is prepared to
mount his LMG onto a tripod or fixed vehicle mount, include smartlink,
and gas venting, then stand perfectly still with half a ton of rampaging
spirit bearing down on him, in broad daylight with just the perfect
amount of sunlight, no smog, clouds, rain or any other adverse weather
conditions, or people/attackers around, had better hope to his gods
that the weapon doesn't jam, or a cratridge misfire, because if it does,
he's lunch. :)

I think you've taken an extreme example, and not factored in the other
things that exist in the world. An interesting example, but far from a
valid one. :)

JMHO

--
Pete Sims
Civilisation advances by extending the number of important operations which we
can perform without thinking about them.
Message no. 4
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 23:12:25 -0800
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, The Jestyr wrote:
[snip other spirit vs lots of high-speed lead stuff]

> A good point, but all the bug needs is two successes on a dodge test and
> that 27D hits a poor innocent wall. If the bug has a) decent armour and b)
> decent threat, it should be possible.
>
> (Maybe I should add a qualifier: c) the GM rolls the way our GM does. I
> hate his dice. :( )
>
> Lady Jestyr

Your GM uses DICE?!?! I knew one guy notorious for rolling a PENCIL in
plain view and pronouncing obscene amounts of damage!

(works great for power trips though..)

:)

-Tim
Message no. 5
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:25:14 GMT
Scam writes

> Well they've still got their Immunity To Normal Weapons power which for
> higher force spirits is -Immense-
>
Yes but you still need 8 dice to stage down a deadly wound, willpower
6 and a nice franchi22, and the spirit needs 14 2+'s i don't care
what force it was to avoid injury. [assuming all success, easy enough]

> Which brings me to another question I've had for awhile ......
>
> @ combat situation.
> @ Samurai with an LMG loading explosive ammo fires ten rounds at a force 4
> true form insect spirit.
Thanks awakenings dikote ex etc don't help, but.

> @ Base damage is 7S
> @ 10 rounds pumps it up to 17D (not taking into account any extra staging
> over D to the power, read the damage code for the Ares HV-LMG in FoF to
> see what I mean)
> @ explosive rounds add +1. ???
>
> So is that +1 for the first round, for every round, for every three (my
> personal choice)??
+1 for first as far as i know, IPEX, franchi 3 rnds is 15D at this!
i gave a wraith its full 'threat rating = force' vs that and it
needed it! [ok players with brains buy more dice attack with karma
pool but]

>
> we could have damage codes of 18D, 20D or 27D here depending upon how you
> read the rules.
i get 18D, thats terminal enough.

>
> 27D is going to mess up nearly _any_ spirit under Force 11 which makes
> the whole "Guns are useless against spirits" argument silly to say the
> least and all the Samurai needs is a single success.
>
> Scam

Don't forget flesh form bugs don't have immunity to lead poisoning :)
or IPE grenades BOOM!!!!, for true from / queens etc, pull a melee
weapon, even if you don't hurt the thing, if its busy soaking you
cause you have reach its not ripping the mages head off before he/she
casts that manabolt.

When it come to big elementals/queen bugs they have full willpower
and then the mana magic has just as many problems, 10's plus
background count + wounds, + lighting + cover gets impossible fast
while the sammie needs a base of 2 or 4 not 10!

Mark
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:51:58 +0100
Scam said on 15:06/19 Nov 96...

> @ combat situation.
> @ Samurai with an LMG loading explosive ammo fires ten rounds at a force 4
> true form insect spirit.
> @ Base damage is 7S
> @ 10 rounds pumps it up to 17D (not taking into account any extra staging
> over D to the power, read the damage code for the Ares HV-LMG in FoF to
> see what I mean)
> @ explosive rounds add +1. ???
>
> So is that +1 for the first round, for every round, for every three (my
> personal choice)??

This is yet another area where the rules are a bit vague, though the exact
words for explosive rounds read: "Increase the Power Rating of any attack
with explosive rounds by 1." (SRII page 93) Since all bullets are part of
the same attack, only the final Power Level would be increased by +1.

I apply all ammo modifiers to the complete burst, not to the individual
rounds. So your example would end up doing 18D if you have me as the GM.

Anyway with only a force 4 spirit, that spirit is toast with such a burst
(if you manage to hit) -- resisting 10D with a Body of 4 or so is kinda
hard to do :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's when it all gets blown away.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 7
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:50:37 -0500
>
> > A good point, but all the bug needs is two successes on a dodge test and
> > that 27D hits a poor innocent wall. If the bug has a) decent armour and b)
> > decent threat, it should be possible.
> >
> > (Maybe I should add a qualifier: c) the GM rolls the way our GM does. I
> > hate his dice. :( )
> >
> > Lady Jestyr
>
> Your GM uses DICE?!?! I knew one guy notorious for rolling a PENCIL in
> plain view and pronouncing obscene amounts of damage!
>
> (works great for power trips though..)

Ouch, that is nasty
Message no. 8
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:48:49 -0500
>
> It is possible to get those totals, but only in the *most* favourable of
> conditions, and only roaches move relatively slowly anyway unless you
> model them on Asian roaches which can fly...
Don't know what roaches you are thinking about. ALl of the roaches that
I have had the misfortune to come across have moved like greased lightning
Message no. 9
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:38:04 -0800
[snip Explosive ammo stuff]

> Anyway with only a force 4 spirit, that spirit is toast with such a burst
> (if you manage to hit) -- resisting 10D with a Body of 4 or so is kinda
> hard to do :)
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

I've always felt that ALL spirits (PC and NPC owned) should get a Threat Rating.
It defenitely keeps them around longer. I've used: TR = Force
Message no. 10
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:57:56 -0800
> >
> > It is possible to get those totals, but only in the *most* favourable of
> > conditions, and only roaches move relatively slowly anyway unless you
> > model them on Asian roaches which can fly...
> Don't know what roaches you are thinking about. ALl of the roaches that
> I have had the misfortune to come across have moved like greased lightning

Speaking of differenc types of insects....anybody know about this one 5 lb.
beetle that flies like a june-bug (similar to a drunken crop duster), and better
yet, has a big, rhino-like spike on it's head. I'd hate to run into the spirit
form.

~Tim
Message no. 11
From: Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:03:40 -0500
>Which brings me to another question I've had for awhile ......
>
>@ combat situation.
>@ Samurai with an LMG loading explosive ammo fires ten rounds at a force 4
>true form insect spirit.
>@ Base damage is 7S
>@ 10 rounds pumps it up to 17D (not taking into account any extra staging
>over D to the power, read the damage code for the Ares HV-LMG in FoF to
>see what I mean)
>@ explosive rounds add +1. ???
>
>So is that +1 for the first round, for every round, for every three (my
>personal choice)??
>
Explosive Damage:
We've always played it that it is base damage 7S +1 for explosive.
Then 8S + 10 for FA fire for a total of 18D.
I've never even considered another possibility, but now I see there are
other ways to look at it. Damn, I never should have subscribed to this
list, things are just getting more confusing!

Anyway, in terms of attacking spirits with guns, I'm in favor of making that
really difficult to do, so I've considered the force*2 armor to be hardened.
That means it doesn't matter how many bullets you pump at the spirit, if it
is force 5 or higher (in this case), it won't feel a thing. That is just my
interpretation, making it very hard to counter astral creatures with lead --
get a mage, physad (hello, here is an advantage physads have over sammies),
or summon some willpower and punch the spirit. This is just a personal
choice, the way I like to work it when I GM.

--Sanction
Message no. 12
From: Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:57:04 -0500
At 10:38 AM 11/19/96 -0800, you wrote:
>[snip Explosive ammo stuff]
>
>> Anyway with only a force 4 spirit, that spirit is toast with such a burst
>> (if you manage to hit) -- resisting 10D with a Body of 4 or so is kinda
>> hard to do :)
>> --
>> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
>
>I've always felt that ALL spirits (PC and NPC owned) should get a Threat
Rating.
> It defenitely keeps them around longer. I've used: TR = Force

Damn, when I was playing last (not THAT long ago) I tried to convince my GM
to use this rule because I was losing Force 6 elementals to irrate cab
drivers. He didn't agree with me, though. :(

--Sanction
Message no. 13
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:26:57 -0700
Sanction wrote:
|
|I've never even considered another possibility, but now I see there are
|other ways to look at it. Damn, I never should have subscribed to this
|list, things are just getting more confusing!

Bwahahahahahahaha! Welcome to Our World! :)

I started using the .sig I have now about 4-5 months after
I joined this list. I have'nt found reason to change it
since.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 14
From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" <Scott.E.Meyer@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:55:28 -0600
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Timothy P Cooper wrote:

> > >
> > > It is possible to get those totals, but only in the *most* favourable of
> > > conditions, and only roaches move relatively slowly anyway unless you
> > > model them on Asian roaches which can fly...
> > Don't know what roaches you are thinking about. ALl of the roaches that
> > I have had the misfortune to come across have moved like greased lightning
>
> Speaking of differenc types of insects....anybody know about this one 5 lb.
> beetle that flies like a june-bug (similar to a drunken crop duster), and better
> yet, has a big, rhino-like spike on it's head. I'd hate to run into the spirit
> form.
>
> ~Tim
>
I think you're refferring to the rhinoceros beetle. I've seen a
few (mounted, of course), and yes, they are big.

-Q

---------------------------------------
Should "anal-retentive" be hyphenated?

Scott "Q" Meyer
Scott.E.Meyer@*******.edu
http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer
Message no. 15
From: Pete <Pete@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:19:49 +0000
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.961119074658.4445A-100000@******>, Midn Daniel
O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL> writes
>>
>> It is possible to get those totals, but only in the *most* favourable of
>> conditions, and only roaches move relatively slowly anyway unless you
>> model them on Asian roaches which can fly...
>Don't know what roaches you are thinking about. ALl of the roaches that
>I have had the misfortune to come across have moved like greased lightning

I agree with you.

As I said -- *relatively slowly*. In comparison to the speed of a Mantis
or Fly they are slow.. Also when you watch a roach shambling across a
floor looking for scraps it moves slowy, only when it has met something
it likes the taste of or is attacked does it show a true shade of its
speed.


--
Pete Sims
Civilisation advances by extending the number of important operations which we
can perform without thinking about them.
Message no. 16
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Weapon Staging and ammo (was Re: attacking spirits)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:43:24 GMT
Timothy P Cooper writes
>
> > Anyway with only a force 4 spirit, that spirit is toast with such a burst
> > (if you manage to hit) -- resisting 10D with a Body of 4 or so is kinda
> > hard to do :)
> > --
> > Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
>
> I've always felt that ALL spirits (PC and NPC owned) should get a
> Threat Rating.
> It defenitely keeps them around longer. I've used: TR = Force
>
I haven't used this. But 1 thing to note is whichever you do, if the
bad guys controlled spirits get threat rating so must the Pc's [its
VERY UNFAIR if the opposition get more for doing something that the
PC's] Now free spirits are another matter [they count as enemies in
thier own right] and i give them threat ratings, i once calculated
dice pools for one, ever seen combat pool 19? [or something like
that] usually only results from combat sense spells, and that wasn't
very high force.

Mark

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