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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Weapon storage
Date: Wed Apr 11 04:00:01 2001
A question for all you army types out there.

Talking about large-scale weapon storage (hundreds or
thousands of weapons, ammo etc. etc.) - depots or
armouries, or whatever you call them - how are the
weapons generally stored? I'd assume they'd store
identical weapons together and weapons of similar
classes near each other (assuming they have different
types of assault rifles or pistols or what-have-you),
but what about the ammo? Do they store the ammo with
their appropriate weapons, or do they store all ammo
together, sorted by calibre or something similar?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: Weapon storage
Date: Wed Apr 11 08:40:01 2001
At 01:01 11.04.2001 -0700, you wrote:

>A question for all you army types out there.
>
>Talking about large-scale weapon storage (hundreds or
>thousands of weapons, ammo etc. etc.) - depots or
>armouries, or whatever you call them - how are the
>weapons generally stored? I'd assume they'd store
>identical weapons together and weapons of similar
>classes near each other (assuming they have different
>types of assault rifles or pistols or what-have-you),
>but what about the ammo? Do they store the ammo with
>their appropriate weapons, or do they store all ammo
>together, sorted by calibre or something similar?

In the german army, all individual weapons (pistols, subs, rifles,
machineguns) plus assorted equipment (scopes, flare launchers, spare
magazines, tec.) for each company / battery is stored in the units
building. Ammunition for small weapons and stuff like hand grenades are
stored within the barracks. Special things (like the SAM missiles for our
tanks) were in a location some clicks away. You don't store things like
that in the vicinity of a rather big city ;)

Arclight
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Weapon storage
Date: Wed Apr 11 10:40:01 2001
> In the german army, all individual weapons (pistols,
subs, rifles, machineguns) plus assorted equipment
(scopes, flare launchers, spare magazines, tec.) for
each company / battery is stored in the units
building. Ammunition for small weapons and stuff like
hand grenades are stored within the barracks. Special
things (like the SAM missiles for our tanks) were in a
location some clicks away. You don't store things like
that in the vicinity of a rather big city ;)
> Arclight

Yeah, okay...but don't you have things like 'central
depots'? The place where they store all the gear
before it goes out to the soldiers? That's the kind of
thing I'm talking about.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: Weapon storage
Date: Wed Apr 11 10:55:01 2001
Von Rand Ratinac :

<snip>

>Yeah, okay...but don't you have things like 'central
>depots'? The place where they store all the gear
>before it goes out to the soldiers? That's the kind of
>thing I'm talking about.

Sorry, I don't know.

Arclight
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Weapon storage
Date: Wed Apr 11 10:55:03 2001
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In a message dated 4/11/2001 10:44:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

>
> Yeah, okay...but don't you have things like 'central
> depots'? The place where they store all the gear
> before it goes out to the soldiers? That's the kind of
> thing I'm talking about.
>

Any central storage place would be a big distribution wharehouse. Basically
everything would be in boxes by item. IE M-16's would be in boxes together,
1911's would be in another, M-60's in another, and Ammo would be in seperate
boxes by caliber. From there it goes out to the individual companies and
platoons, who then store it as previously stated.

Dragon Claw

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
4/11/2001 10:44:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<BR>docwagon101@*****.com writes:
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>Yeah, okay...but don't you have things like 'central
<BR>depots'? The place where they store all the gear
<BR>before it goes out to the soldiers? That's the kind of
<BR>thing I'm talking about.
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>Any central storage place would be a big distribution wharehouse.
&nbsp;Basically
<BR>everything would be in boxes by item. &nbsp;IE M-16's would be in boxes
together,
<BR>1911's would be in another, M-60's in another, and Ammo would be in seperate
<BR>boxes by caliber. &nbsp;From there it goes out to the individual companies
and
<BR>platoons, who then store it as previously stated.
<BR>
<BR>Dragon Claw</FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Weapon storage
Date: Wed Apr 11 13:55:01 2001
In a message dated 4/11/01 10:44:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> Yeah, okay...but don't you have things like 'central
> depots'? The place where they store all the gear
> before it goes out to the soldiers? That's the kind of
> thing I'm talking about.

Not quite what you're looking for, but still a nice pic;
http://www.hkpro.com/factoryracks.jpg

It's the HK factory, but I think it's what you're picturing :-)
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Weapon storage
Date: Wed Apr 11 15:30:01 2001
In article <20010411080154.15591.qmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>, Rand
Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>Talking about large-scale weapon storage (hundreds or
>thousands of weapons, ammo etc. etc.) - depots or
>armouries, or whatever you call them - how are the
>weapons generally stored? I'd assume they'd store
>identical weapons together and weapons of similar
>classes near each other (assuming they have different
>types of assault rifles or pistols or what-have-you),
>but what about the ammo? Do they store the ammo with
>their appropriate weapons, or do they store all ammo
>together, sorted by calibre or something similar?

How The British Army Did It -

In the armoury, weapons are racked together by type, usually in numeric
order (each rifle has a "unit number", distinct from its serial number:
in one unit it was 5mm-high numbers punched into the receiver by the
safety catch, in another it was spraypainted in inch-high yellow
numerals onto buttstock and forestock).

At one unit We had ~120 rifles (all L1A1s), ten MMGs (a mix of L7A1s and
L4s), six pistols (all Browning High-Powers), three Carl Gustav 84mm
MAWs, and about twenty SMGs (all L2 Sterlings) No exotica, no fancy
stuff. We also had about six basic twelve-bore double barrel shotguns
for sporting use (clay pigeons et al) and a half-dozen .22LR single-shot
target rifles. Oh, and four 51mm mortars, but we almost never issued
them.

Accessories (magazines, slings, bayonets, sights? cleaning kits?) are
stored in the same room but in a different rack. In some cases you'll
have standard sets (SUSAT, sling, bayonet, cleaning kit, six magazines)
in pigeonholes, plus spares elsewhere (for times when you dish out a lot
of ammo and give folks the mags to bomb up): in others you'll have
plastic boxes of loose magazines, slings et cetera and will count them
in and out as part of the issue process. More exotic accessories like
night-vision sights


Ammunition is stored in a seperate facility, usually in sealed
containers (not welded shut, but tagged and closed or shrinkwrapped).
For instance, 7.62mm ball and blank came in, IIRC, 600-round cans (4 x
150-round plastic carriers in a metal box, or six 100-round lengths of
link for GPMG) or 1200-round shrinkwrapped "blocks" of 60 20-round
cardboard boxes.

If you opened one of those, you tried to use it _all_, because if the
seal on such a container was opened, the Orderly Officer had to hand-
count the rounds as part of his rounds (as opposed to merely checking
the seals of unopened packs, and confirming that there were the right
number)

In my time, the ammo store would mostly have 7.62mm ball and blank, with
some 9mm, some explosives (grenades, PE4, any 51mm rounds we had) and a
fair holding of pyrotechnics (smoke grenades, thunderflashes, trip
flares, miniflares, Schermulies, any specialist items like chemical
simulants)


Typically you'd always store all the ammunition in one place, well
seperated from the weapons: the armoury usually opened directly onto the
drillhall, the ammo store was normally outside Just In Case.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Weapon storage
Date: Wed Apr 11 21:30:01 2001
> > Yeah, okay...but don't you have things like
'central depots'? The place where they store all the
gear before it goes out to the soldiers? That's the
kind of thing I'm talking about.
>
> Any central storage place would be a big
distribution wharehouse.

Bingo!

> Basically everything would be in boxes by item. IE
M-16's would be in boxes together, 1911's would be in
another, M-60's in another, and Ammo would be in
seperate boxes by caliber. From there it goes out to
the individual companies and platoons, who then store
it as previously stated.
> Dragon Claw

Here's what I'm really wondering. Do they usually
store all the ammo in one area, away from the weapons?
Or do they just have it wherever they decide to put it?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Weapon storage
Date: Wed Apr 11 22:45:01 2001
Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> wrote,

> A question for all you army types out there.
>
> Talking about large-scale weapon storage (hundreds or
> thousands of weapons, ammo etc. etc.) - depots or
> armouries, or whatever you call them - how are the
> weapons generally stored? I'd assume they'd store
> identical weapons together and weapons of similar
> classes near each other (assuming they have different
> types of assault rifles or pistols or what-have-you),
> but what about the ammo? Do they store the ammo with
> their appropriate weapons, or do they store all ammo
> together, sorted by calibre or something similar?

Depends on your definition of "large." :)

Within the US Army, the weapons themselves are generally stored in an
arms room. These are maintained at the company-level of organization
(units of about 60-120 soldiers, depending on the type of unit) and
include both small arms (assault rifles and smaller) and crew-served
weapons (machine guns). Arms rooms rely on passive security measures,
primarily physical security, such as reinforced walls, vault doors, and
motion detectors. In addition to the standard deadbolt lock, additional
reinforced padlocks also keep it shut. (And those padlocks are TOUGH.
Ordinary bolt cutters would be ineffective.) The weapons themselves are
stored in weapon racks (usually about a dozen or so per rack, going from
memory), which are made of reinforced steel and secured with padlocks
and chains (and are a real bitch to carry too, even when unloaded).

As a general rule, ammunition is NOT stored in arms rooms with the
weapons. Instead, ammunition is drawn on an as-needed basis from an
ammunition supply point (ASP), which is usually a centralized facility
on base. (More on that later.) Occasionally units may draw ammo and
temporarily store them (overnight mostly) in the arms room for later
use, such as range qualification or deployment. Of course there are
exceptions, such as MPs (who would mostly require sidearm ammo) or
rapid-deployment units (like the Rangers or 82nd Airborne) who may be
called up at a moment's notice.

About the ASPs: As I said before, ASPs are centralized storage areas on
a base where ammunition and explosives are stored. This includes not
only bullets and grenades, but also rockets and missiles, tank and
artillery shells, C4 and TNT, and pyro (firework simulators used in
training exercises). Each type of ammunition is stored in a large
bunker, walled with several feet's thickness of reinforced concrete and
further covered by even more feet of earth. (Except for the front
loading dock, these things look like giant burrows dug out by 50-meter
long moles.) This isn't so much to prevent intruders from stealing the
ammo but rather to contain an explosion, if the ammo should ever cook
off, accidentally or otherwise. (And BTW, the interior of the bunker is
COOL; after all, we are talking about a manmade cave.) Bunkers are
usually spaced about 400-800 meters apart in open fields, and the whole
ASP area is patrolled 24/7. (The level of toughness of the patrols
depends on the sensitivity of the local region; within the US security
patrols aren't much better than ordinary rent-a-cops, while in
Bosnia you would have MPs armed with live ammo making the rounds.)

To extrapolate to Shadowrun, there wouldn't be that many changes IMHO.
The arms rooms themselves would not change all that much, as they rely
mainly on passive measures and reinforced physical barriers to prevent
break-in. (95 percent of the time, nobody other than the armorer has any
business being inside the arms room.) Any Matrix hook-ups are likely to
be one-way, where the arms room security system tells the host when the
room was accessed, and whether it was legally or not. While maglocks
would be in place, odds are likely there's also a physical deadbolt or
reinforced padlock for added redundancy. Security riggers and CCSS are
highly unlikely, since the relatively decentralized system makes such
specialists too costly. Any magical protection is likely to be passive,
as there aren't that many combat mages to go around; FAB and creeper
vines would probably be the most common defense.

As far as the ASPs go, since they're in a wide-open area, the most
common upgrade in Shadowrun would be implementing drones in place of
standard guards. Since ASPs are centralized on base, they are more
likely to employ specialized security personnel like security riggers
and mages. ASPs are particularly more likely to have active magical
security (wards, spirits, and astrally-projecting magicians), since
there's a greater risk of a spirit (especially fire elementals)
materializing inside and cooking off the ammunition.

(Also, as a side note, for those of you who possess the original Seattle
Sourcebook: the western half of the area designated for the Urban Combat
Simulator on the Fort Lewis map is actually IRL the ammunition storage
point for active, reserve, and National Guard units stationed there.)

Hope that helps,

-- Jon
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Weapon storage
Date: Wed Apr 11 22:55:01 2001
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In a message dated 4/11/01 10:52:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
JonSzeto@***.com writes:


> (Also, as a side note, for those of you who possess the original Seattle
> Sourcebook: the western half of the area designated for the Urban Combat
> Simulator on the Fort Lewis map is actually IRL the ammunition storage
> point for active, reserve, and National Guard units stationed there.)

Holy. THAT BIG? Wow.

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
4/11/01 10:52:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<BR>JonSzeto@***.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">(Also, as a side note, for
those of you who possess the original Seattle
<BR>Sourcebook: the western half of the area designated for the Urban Combat
<BR>Simulator on the Fort Lewis map is actually IRL the ammunition storage
<BR>point for active, reserve, and National Guard units stationed
there.)</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Holy. THAT BIG? Wow.</FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Weapon storage
Date: Thu Apr 12 22:00:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>

Thanks for your help, guys, esp. Paul and Jon. That
answers my questions pretty well.

Fact is, I'm looking at a commercial weapon storage
depot (from where weapons, ammo, armour, explosives
etc. are shipped to retailers, security companies, the
military etc.) and I figured you army types would have
the closest experience to something like that. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Weapon storage
Date: Sat Apr 14 03:35:01 2001
In article <20010412013255.59324.qmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>, Rand
Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>Here's what I'm really wondering. Do they usually
>store all the ammo in one area, away from the weapons?
>Or do they just have it wherever they decide to put it?

For security and safety reasons, ammunition and weapons are stored
separately in every setup I'm aware of: as a private shooter I was
_required_ to have ammunition and weapon locked up separately.

--
Paul J. Adam

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