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Message no. 1
From: Jod <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Wearing double armor.
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:25:37 +0200
Hya!

I was creating a char. today, when me and the player came upon something
strange. He was choosing his armor, and chose an armored vest. Then he
said:"Hey, can I wear an armored coat over my armored vest.". SO I think
'hmmm, lessee, the armored coat would be something like a bulletproof vest,
and the armored coat something like a raincoat. So, he could, I guess.'. SO,
now I'm wondering, is this possible?? Am I completely wrong in assuming the
correct sizes of the armors. If they can be worn over eachother, should I
add up the plusses, or just take the highest one?? Any help would be
appreciated.
Oh, and BTW, I've searched in the book for a rule covering this, but I
couldn't find it...

Thanx in advance,

Jod
chatin@*******.nl
Message no. 2
From: "T. Glinka" <glinka@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Wearing double armor.
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:58:11 -0700
Jod wrote:
>
> Hya!
>
> I was creating a char. today, when me and the player came upon something
> strange. He was choosing his armor, and chose an armored vest. Then he
> said:"Hey, can I wear an armored coat over my armored vest.". SO I think
> 'hmmm, lessee, the armored coat would be something like a bulletproof vest,
> and the armored coat something like a raincoat. So, he could, I guess.'. SO,
> now I'm wondering, is this possible?? Am I completely wrong in assuming the
> correct sizes of the armors. If they can be worn over eachother, should I
> add up the plusses, or just take the highest one?? Any help would be
> appreciated.
> Oh, and BTW, I've searched in the book for a rule covering this, but I
> couldn't find it...

The NAGRL has rules for this. Basically, you take the highest armor
rating and add half of the next highest armor to it, rounding down. So
if you have a vest with 5/3 and a jacket with 4/2 than you would have
7/4 armor (5 + 4/2)/(3 + 2/2). I would give you the page number but I
don't have it with me right now.

Tony
Message no. 3
From: Daniel Gelinsky <dunkelzahn@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Wearing double armor.
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:31:35 -0700
> I was creating a char. today, when me and the player came upon something
> strange. He was choosing his armor, and chose an armored vest. Then he
> said:"Hey, can I wear an armored coat over my armored vest.". SO I think
> 'hmmm, lessee, the armored coat would be something like a bulletproof vest,
> and the armored coat something like a raincoat. So, he could, I guess.'. SO,
> now I'm wondering, is this possible?? Am I completely wrong in assuming the
> correct sizes of the armors. If they can be worn over eachother, should I
> add up the plusses, or just take the highest one?? Any help would be
> appreciated.
> Oh, and BTW, I've searched in the book for a rule covering this, but I
> couldn't find it...
AFAIK, the Neo Anarchist's Guide to Real Life (i think) had a rule about
layering armor. What it said, in a nutshell is that the highest rated
armor stays the same in the adding up of armor, but everything else is
halved, rounded down. In every other book that I have read or know
about, there are no rules for layering armor.
---Daniel Gelinske (WarChylde)
http://inetarena.com/~dunkelzahn/main.html
dunkelzahn@*********.com
Message no. 4
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Wearing double armor.
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:55:31 +0000
> > I was creating a char. today, when me and the player came upon something
> > strange. He was choosing his armor, and chose an armored vest. Then he
> > said:"Hey, can I wear an armored coat over my armored vest.". SO I
think
> > 'hmmm, lessee, the armored coat would be something like a bulletproof vest,
> > and the armored coat something like a raincoat. So, he could, I guess.'. SO,
> > now I'm wondering, is this possible?? Am I completely wrong in assuming the
> > correct sizes of the armors. If they can be worn over eachother, should I
> > add up the plusses, or just take the highest one?? Any help would be
> > appreciated.
> > Oh, and BTW, I've searched in the book for a rule covering this, but I
> > couldn't find it...
>
> The NAGRL has rules for this. Basically, you take the highest armor
> rating and add half of the next highest armor to it, rounding down. So
> if you have a vest with 5/3 and a jacket with 4/2 than you would have
> 7/4 armor (5 + 4/2)/(3 + 2/2). I would give you the page number but I
> don't have it with me right now.

They're possibly in FOF as well, but that's unimportant; they are as
quoted. But be very aware that it is an optional rule, especially if
your GM thinks a partial suit is about max personal armor or prefers
values to be comparable.

Example: A partial suit costs what, 10000 and has 6/4 armor. It
weighs 10+body kilos. This is without enviroseal or such. It's *with*
a helmet, incidentally. An armor jacket/lined coat combination would
have an armor value of 7/4, weigh 5 kilos and cost 1500 or so, as
well as being infinitely more concealable.

If you use this rule, either upgrade heavy armors something drastic
(because they can presumably not be layered) or assume whoever is
producing them is going bankrupt pretty soon. Also, since armor
values will be significantly higher than scaled for, upgrade gun
damage codes. (If you want the threat to remain the same, that is.).

I posted an alternative to the written rules (since, realistically,
wearing an armor jacket and a lined coat *SHOULD* give better
protection than either alone) but it was equally flawed once applied
to vest with plates. (For all other armors it worked nicely IMHO. :)

It's hard to say what weighs heaviest, balance or realism. In my
group balance does; wearing multiple pieces of armor still has some
effect, though, but not on the 'general armor value'.

(Consider making it harder to stage up damage the more thoroughly you
are covered by armor, perhaps three successes to stage up rather than
two. (Comparing successes first and then calculating damage, mind).
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 5
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Wearing double armor.
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:27:34 GMT
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:31:35 -0700, Daniel Gelinsky wrote:

> > I was creating a char. today, when me and the player came upon something
> > strange. He was choosing his armor, and chose an armored vest. Then he
> > said:"Hey, can I wear an armored coat over my armored vest.". SO I
think
> > 'hmmm, lessee, the armored coat would be something like a bulletproof vest,
> > and the armored coat something like a raincoat. So, he could, I guess.'. SO,
> > now I'm wondering, is this possible?? Am I completely wrong in assuming the
> > correct sizes of the armors. If they can be worn over eachother, should I
> > add up the plusses, or just take the highest one?? Any help would be
> > appreciated.
> > Oh, and BTW, I've searched in the book for a rule covering this, but I
> > couldn't find it...
> AFAIK, the Neo Anarchist's Guide to Real Life (i think) had a rule about
> layering armor. What it said, in a nutshell is that the highest rated
> armor stays the same in the adding up of armor, but everything else is
> halved, rounded down. In every other book that I have read or know
> about, there are no rules for layering armor.

How does one then handle cyber/bio armour ratings when wearing armour?

Regardless of how you deal with layered armour, it is important to
penalize your players when doing so. Multiple layers of body armour
would get thick pretty quickly, making close-to-the-body movements
rather tricky and increase the chance of heat exhaustion during
strenuous activity. The concealability of the outer layer of body
armour would also be somewhat compromized with all of the bulky armour
beneath (hey look, it's the armour-plated "Michelin Man"!).

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."
Message no. 6
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Wearing double armor.
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:05:41 EDT
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:58:11 -0700 "T. Glinka" <glinka@**.NETCOM.COM>
writes:

> The NAGRL has rules for this.

Aaah! 'Twould explain why I've never seen it in the SSC, then:)



/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 7
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Wearing double armor.
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:05:41 EDT
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:25:37 +0200 Jod <chatin@*******.NL> writes:
>Hya!
>
>I was creating a char. today, when me and the player came upon
>something
>strange. He was choosing his armor, and chose an armored vest. Then he
>said:"Hey, can I wear an armored coat over my armored vest.". SO I

>Oh, and BTW, I've searched in the book for a rule covering this, but I
>couldn't find it...


You won't find it in the main book because it's not there (disclaimer:
AFAIK:) It's supposed to be in the SSC (I think) but I've never seen it
there, either. The way it works, however, is that you take the armor
rating(s) of either the outermost layer or the strongest layer (can't
remember, don't really know) and add *half* the total of all the armor
that the character is wearing. So a guy wearing a secure longcoat (4/2)
and a secure vest (4/3) gets 6/3 (or 4 or something:)



/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 8
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Wearing double armor.
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:00:03 +0100
In article <340e0bfd.21019615@****.direct.ca>, James Lindsay
<jlindsay@******.CA> writes
>Regardless of how you deal with layered armour, it is important to
>penalize your players when doing so. Multiple layers of body armour
>would get thick pretty quickly, making close-to-the-body movements
>rather tricky and increase the chance of heat exhaustion during
>strenuous activity. The concealability of the outer layer of body
>armour would also be somewhat compromized with all of the bulky armour
>beneath (hey look, it's the armour-plated "Michelin Man"!).

Having worn one (1) layer of body armour, I confidently state I'd rather
not wear two. An INIBA vest was comfortably warm on a clear Yorkshire
night. Skirmishing across bad ground, that plus a helmet (worn over
combats, web gear, and carrying a L1A1) was seriously uncomfortable on a
sunny north Yorkshire summer's day.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 9
From: Sir Philos Nex <philos@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Wearing double armor.
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:17:05 -0400
Fade wrote:

> Example: A partial suit costs what, 10000 and has 6/4 armor. It
> weighs 10+body kilos. This is without enviroseal or such. It's *with*
> a helmet, incidentally. An armor jacket/lined coat combination would
> have an armor value of 7/4, weigh 5 kilos and cost 1500 or so, as
> well as being infinitely more concealable.
>
> If you use this rule, either upgrade heavy armors something drastic
> (because they can presumably not be layered) or assume whoever is
> producing them is going bankrupt pretty soon. Also, since armor
> values will be significantly higher than scaled for, upgrade gun
> damage codes. (If you want the threat to remain the same, that is.).
>
> I posted an alternative to the written rules (since, realistically,
> wearing an armor jacket and a lined coat *SHOULD* give better
> protection than either alone) but it was equally flawed once appliedto vest with
> plates. (For all other armors it worked nicely IMHO. :)

I got around this be adding the stipulation that if you layer armour it begins
to become difficult to move in (eventually) which makes sense if you think about
it. A player with the formfitting bodyarmour, an armoured shirt and pants, wearing
an armoured vest with an armoured trenchcoat would be very stiff in his joints.
Sure the lighter items are built so they don't hinder the user all that much, but
there has to be a point where even the lightly stiff protective items will beging to
hinder you. So I say that if you layer armour you suffer penalties as if you were
wearing hardened armour as per BBB rules. Basically they state that if your
ballistic armour value exceeds your reaction, each point reduces your combat pool by
one. I extended that, just primarily to be a prick that has no real game balance,
to mean that only your natural reaction + the level of the wired reflexes (not the
x2 crap). This allowed player to layer armour but I still got the odd "hmmmm...
someday I'll afford heavy security armour.. only 120000 nuyen to go! woohoo!"
--
Andrew Dominas
AKA Sir Philos Nex
3rd Year Honours Business Administration U of Windsor
Jedi Knight

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