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Message no. 1
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:15:29 -0400
<snipping a lot of ..er...snippage about respective Power levels in
games, Average stats, Skill Levels, blah, blah, blah...>

What in the name of the Wide, Wide, World of Sports are we arguing
about here!!! I've been following this thread, and it just seems to be
getting more muddled with each posting.
I have to say I'm in the camp that average Shadowrunners should be
above average the typical NON-COMBATANT in their stats and skills.
There's no room on the streets for wannabees and posseurs, and I sure as
hell don't want to play. [Well, there is; they're call Highly Expendable
Thugs.].
Caric's in my PBEM, and he doesn't evidence the 'munchie' attitude
I see bandied about here [though I am wondering about that Panther
Cannon :-]. I'm pretty sure the guys in his group consider a character
first, THEN assign the appropriate stats for them. I know I have NO
INTEREST AT ALL in playing some accountant/number cruncher/ corporate
admin guy in a game for the purposes of Role Playing [why do something
in a game, I do for a living?!?]. I game to relax, and as I'm a big fan
of Action movies, my games tend to run the threat level of say, a GOOD
James Bond or John Woo film. A player's character with a bunch of 2's
for skills and stats had better have a PLAYER behingd him with a REAL
good strategic mind behind him, because he'd be at a severe
disadvantage.
I'm talking PCs, mind you. My NPCs run the gamut from below average
to average to above average, to well, you get the idea. I try to reflect
a wide spread of what would 'realistically' be out there. Every mafia
thug isn't going to be some hulking goon [With a FEW EXCEPTIONS, as
CARIC has found out! Even then, I try to tweek the stereotype a bit, to
inject a little bit of comedy :-} And every Aztech facility isn't going
to be guarded by Jauguar Spec Forces. You fit the personnel to the
situation, so as to challenge your players, or at least amuse them a
little.
Throwing all superpowered foes at your players is no fun. A GM's
supposed to be challenging his players, not annilating them. [There ARE
a few occasions where this is called for;]. The chance of a PC 'buying
it' shouldn't be automatic, unless he does something REALLY stupid.And
if they die in the course of an adventure, that's just the way it goes,
but they should be given a chance to pull thru, like the heroes in
movies do. Sort of like 'he gut wrenchingly managed to pull defeat out
of the slavering jaws of victory!', ...or something like that. [I GM'd
one PC that just couldn't escape her death, but she TOTALLY blew me off
guard, by managing to take my best NPC villian with her!]
The level of a GM's PCs should be reflected in the level and TYPE
of game. I wouldn't put a Non~Combatant character constantly up against,
say, Godzilla [By the way, Mat, there's a message under your character's
door from Tokyo!]. You match the character to the type of game the
PLAYER wants to PLAY. [Unless he's a power~gamer, then get out the
trimming shears, and start cutting him back!].
I'll probably be misconstrued and I've already rambled on enough
her, so I'm audi!

>Kohl, physad ork gunslinger, in the AUDI!
Message no. 2
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:38:16 -0500
At 04:15 PM 7/16/97 -0400, Victor wrote:
><snipping a lot of ..er...snippage about respective Power levels in
>games, Average stats, Skill Levels, blah, blah, blah...>

> What in the name of the Wide, Wide, World of Sports are we arguing
>about here!!! I've been following this thread, and it just seems to be
>getting more muddled with each posting.

Could be, but there's a lot of things being dealt with in this thread. It's
bound to get a bit muddled at times...

> I have to say I'm in the camp that average Shadowrunners should be
>above average the typical NON-COMBATANT in their stats and skills.
>There's no room on the streets for wannabees and posseurs, and I sure as
>hell don't want to play. [Well, there is; they're call Highly Expendable
>Thugs.].

I don't consider this unacceptable at all, except for the bit where you say
"should be above average in...etc". I feel that characters should be above
average on an overall scale (as will easily happen just through chargen) but
not above average in everything. Also, I certainly believe that they should
not need to be maxxed in everything.

> Caric's in my PBEM, and he doesn't evidence the 'munchie' attitude
>I see bandied about here [though I am wondering about that Panther
>Cannon :-].

Panther Cannon? I'd have a field day with that. I call that severe
powergamer, btw.

> I'm pretty sure the guys in his group consider a character
>first, THEN assign the appropriate stats for them.

Gun Bunny Deluxe could easily be created this way. So could the Troll Tank.
Appropriate stats don't necessarily mean non-powergamed stats.

> A player's character with a bunch of 2's
>for skills and stats had better have a PLAYER behingd him with a REAL
>good strategic mind behind him, because he'd be at a severe
>disadvantage.

I've never said that players should have 2's for stats and skills. Simply
that they shouldn't have to have 6's.

> I'm talking PCs, mind you. My NPCs run the gamut from below average
>to average to above average, to well, you get the idea. I try to reflect
>a wide spread of what would 'realistically' be out there. Every mafia
>thug isn't going to be some hulking goon [With a FEW EXCEPTIONS, as
>CARIC has found out! Even then, I try to tweek the stereotype a bit, to
>inject a little bit of comedy :-} And every Aztech facility isn't going
>to be guarded by Jauguar Spec Forces. You fit the personnel to the
>situation, so as to challenge your players, or at least amuse them a
>little.

I also fit the characters to the campaign beforehand. That solves a lot of
problems from th start. If you're setting out to play a detective campaign,
the troll mercenary with a heavy machinegun on a gyromount and enough
cyberware to make him effectively unhurtable isn't going to gel with the
setting. Nor will the super-detection mage that sees all and knows all.
He'll take away a great deal of fun form the other players by solving
everything himself. Balance must be maintained.

> Throwing all superpowered foes at your players is no fun. A GM's
>supposed to be challenging his players, not annilating them. [There ARE
>a few occasions where this is called for;].

I agree wholeheartedly. I despise the earth-shattering plotline and
supervillains. If I wanted that I'd play Champions more often...

>The chance of a PC 'buying
>it' shouldn't be automatic, unless he does something REALLY stupid.And
>if they die in the course of an adventure, that's just the way it goes,
>but they should be given a chance to pull thru, like the heroes in
>movies do. Sort of like 'he gut wrenchingly managed to pull defeat out
>of the slavering jaws of victory!', ...or something like that. [I GM'd
>one PC that just couldn't escape her death, but she TOTALLY blew me off
>guard, by managing to take my best NPC villian with her!]

Sounds good, but I don't base my game on combat at all. It's a lot more
roleplaying and thinking than rolling dice and counting. I like it that way...

>The level of a GM's PCs should be reflected in the level and TYPE
>of game.

The power level and style of the game should be reflected in the PC's and
the NPC's. This may well be what you mean, but to me there's a tiny little
difference (and I do get so excited about these differences, don't I?). The
campaign power-level, setting, and type come before the characters are put
on paper or at least it should, you could far too easily end up with a mess
otherwise.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 3
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:52:58 -0400
TopCat said:
>> Caric's in my PBEM, and he doesn't evidence a 'munchie' attitude I see
>>bandied about here [though I am wondering about that Panther Cannon :-].
>
>Panther Cannon? I'd have a field day with that. I call that severe
>powergamer, btw.
>
>Kohl replys:
> In all fairness to Caric, he doesn't have a Panther Cannon. He's having
>a tough time trying to get a cheap Korean knockoff pistol. I meant it as a
>joke [just a LITTLE one :-].
>
> You'd be an interresting 'opponent' to have a beer with and argue over a
>variety of things, until we both forgot what we were arguing about. [There's
>a compliment in there...somewhere.]
>
>Kohl, calling in from the car phone in his Audi.
Message no. 4
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:54:23 +1000
> Panther Cannon? I'd have a field day with that. I call that severe
> powergamer, btw.

Oh, be reasonable. It's a FASA published item - that means the
production team must have envisaged a situation where it would be
appropriate. Sure, carrying everywhere you GO is powergaming (and
begging for a jail term) but the item in and of itself isn't munchy -
it's how and when you use it.

> I've never said that players should have 2's for stats and skills. Simply
> that they shouldn't have to have 6's.

They shouldn't HAVE to have 6's, but you sledge anyone who's GOT 6's. By
your way of thinking, apparently a 6 in anything is a sign of
munchkin-ness.

Okay, how about my sorceror adept/rigger. After being played for QUITE A
WHILE, she had (I think) Cha 5, Qui 6, Int 6... everything else was 4 or
below. Does that make her a munchkin, cause she had two stats at 6? (Oh
yeah, and that was WITH bioware, too...)

And I ask you - the cyberware and bioware exist to make an average
character absolutely beefy. Does this mean FASA are all munchkins and
powergamers, since they created the stuff?

I think your vision of SR is significantly different from mine. That's
fine, I respect your right to hold your own interpretations and play the
way you like. Please extend us the same courtesy.



Lady Jestyr

----------------------------------------------------
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota
monax materiam possit materiari?
----------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
----------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:08:26 -0400
At 08:54 AM 7/17/97 +1000, Lady Jestyr wrote these timeless words:
>> Panther Cannon? I'd have a field day with that. I call that severe
>> powergamer, btw.
>
>Oh, be reasonable. It's a FASA published item - that means the
>production team must have envisaged a situation where it would be
>appropriate. Sure, carrying everywhere you GO is powergaming (and
>begging for a jail term) but the item in and of itself isn't munchy -
>it's how and when you use it.
>
Go fight a Big Assed Mega Awakened Paranormal Beasty sometime without one...

Bull's played tag with a Lampton Lizard (and still have some tentacles to
prove it. Johnny considers it a sex toy:)), Something REALLY big undewater
(Might have been a Megaladon, but might have been a Leviathon for all I
know...), and more Cyber Bandersnatches, Salamanders, and Wyverns than I
care to mention... It's become a running joke that Bull has a Panther in
every room in his house, ever since he nearly got ganked in the John
(Wyvern ripped the roof off and was looking at me while sitting on the
can... Not a good position to be in).

Of course, it's NOT Bull's regular sidearm... He likes the Ruger Warhawk
for that...;]

>> I've never said that players should have 2's for stats and skills. Simply
>> that they shouldn't have to have 6's.
>
>They shouldn't HAVE to have 6's, but you sledge anyone who's GOT 6's. By
>your way of thinking, apparently a 6 in anything is a sign of
>munchkin-ness.
>
>Okay, how about my sorceror adept/rigger. After being played for QUITE A
>WHILE, she had (I think) Cha 5, Qui 6, Int 6... everything else was 4 or
>below. Does that make her a munchkin, cause she had two stats at 6? (Oh
>yeah, and that was WITH bioware, too...)
>
Heh... Should I post Bull's stats? i think his lowest is now a 5... <heh>

But then, when you get close to 400 Karma, what the hell do you expect??
Look at the shit we have to do...

I think the difference between a Powergamer/Munchkin and a Powerful
character is mostly the type of game the character is played in. Bull is
in a high powered game, and despit the high stats and all his power, he
stuill barely survives. For the current power level of the game, he's not
overpowerful.

Munchkins like to be the best and do the most, all the time. they will
even cheat if need be. Powergamers are very similar, though they simply
know the rules better and while they don;t cheat, they tweak and min/max
for maximum power. The main thing though is that they A) live for combat,
and B) like to have be bigger and badder than their enemies. They don;t
like a challenge...

Call me a munchkin if you will, or even a powergamer... But Bull has
slowly gained power over the years, and earned every bit that he's had...

>And I ask you - the cyberware and bioware exist to make an average
>character absolutely beefy. Does this mean FASA are all munchkins and
>powergamers, since they created the stuff?
>
>I think your vision of SR is significantly different from mine. That's
>fine, I respect your right to hold your own interpretations and play the
>way you like. Please extend us the same courtesy.
>
Agreed... I've run several campaigns now, and have set them at various
powerlevels... i've had a game where everyone was a lowpowered nnobody,
where I stressed the lack of combat. My current campign is much of a
higher power level, and I'm giving the players a much greater leeway, since
I want to make things more difficult. i mean, when you start playing with
dragons, Bugs, and nukes, they'd all be dead sevarl times over if they were
"low power".

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 6
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:51:09 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-16 19:22:36 EDT, jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU (Lady
Jestyr) writes:

>
> Okay, how about my sorceror adept/rigger. After being played for QUITE A
> WHILE, she had (I think) Cha 5, Qui 6, Int 6... everything else was 4 or
> below. Does that make her a munchkin, cause she had two stats at 6? (Oh
> yeah, and that was WITH bioware, too...)
>
>
(the Enchanter Adept is smiling in Lady Jestyr's direction) "oooh, Attractive
and Witty..."
-Keith
Message no. 7
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:22:59 -0500
At 08:54 AM 7/17/97 +1000, LJ wrote:
>> Panther Cannon? I'd have a field day with that. I call that severe
>> powergamer, btw.

>Oh, be reasonable. It's a FASA published item - that means the
>production team must have envisaged a situation where it would be
>appropriate. Sure, carrying everywhere you GO is powergaming (and
>begging for a jail term) but the item in and of itself isn't munchy -
>it's how and when you use it.

18D at mammoth ranges is pretty much a powergamer's wet dream with sugar on
top. It isn't munchy as it is in the rules, but I called it powergaming.
It's like I've said to my players "you can have anything, just expect
consequences if you choose to act or purchase unwisely". The better the
item, the more likely someone will be to attempt to steal it. Also,
crimelords wouldn't be too happy knowing that some schmoe down the street
(in their teritory no less) is storing heavy artillery.

>> I've never said that players should have 2's for stats and skills. Simply
>> that they shouldn't have to have 6's.

>They shouldn't HAVE to have 6's, but you sledge anyone who's GOT 6's. By
>your way of thinking, apparently a 6 in anything is a sign of
>munchkin-ness.

No, I don't sledge anyone who has 6's. I "sledge" any game which requires
one to have 6's. A 6 attribute is no sign of a munchkin, it's merely the
pinnacle of human ability.

>Okay, how about my sorceror adept/rigger. After being played for QUITE A
>WHILE, she had (I think) Cha 5, Qui 6, Int 6... everything else was 4 or
>below. Does that make her a munchkin, cause she had two stats at 6? (Oh
>yeah, and that was WITH bioware, too...)

I'd probably go off on the character from a powergaming aspect, but I
haven't seen the character, nor have I seen how your particular game is
played, nor have I seen how long your character has been played so I can't
truly make that call. No munchkinism in those stats that I can see, though...

>And I ask you - the cyberware and bioware exist to make an average
>character absolutely beefy. Does this mean FASA are all munchkins and
>powergamers, since they created the stuff?

Nope, nor did I ever say such. Come now LJ, you know me better than that.
I've said that 6 is the pinnacle of human attributes. This can be enhanced
through technological (cyber-/bio- ware), magical (increase attribute spells
& physad powers), and racial (racial mods) means. Doing so is not
munchkinous unless it goes beyond the bounds of the game (creating a
super-troll which gets +19 to body and +22 to strength, but has to have a 1
intelligence is munchkinous). It can, however, be powergamed. I'll be glad
to show some examples thereof should you wish...

>I think your vision of SR is significantly different from mine. That's
>fine, I respect your right to hold your own interpretations and play the
>way you like. Please extend us the same courtesy.

As I've said before and will doubtlessly have to say again, play as you
want. Just don't try to state that powergaming is the norm in the game and
everything will be just fine. Also, don't try to accomodate powergaming by
altering the rules to demand such a practice. As far as I know, you haven't
done so. You've missed my point often by a considerable degree, but
hopefully this post will cure that.

As to my vision of SR... it's heavy on the roleplaying and light on the
combat. Numbers matter, but not near as much as they do in most campaigns.
Good decision-making and proper use of available resources and contacts is
what defines the success of the runner team.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 8
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:37:49 -0500
At 06:52 PM 7/16/97 -0400, Victor wrote:
>TopCat said:
>>> Caric's in my PBEM, and he doesn't evidence a 'munchie' attitude I see
>>>bandied about here [though I am wondering about that Panther Cannon :-].

>>Panther Cannon? I'd have a field day with that. I call that severe
>>powergamer, btw.

>Kohl replys:
> In all fairness to Caric, he doesn't have a Panther Cannon. He's having
>a tough time trying to get a cheap Korean knockoff pistol. I meant it as a
>joke [just a LITTLE one :-].

Ok, fair enough... but I *would* have a field day if any of my players
bought and/or used a PAC. Heh. :)

> You'd be an interresting 'opponent' to have a beer with and argue over a
>variety of things, until we both forgot what we were arguing about. [There's
>a compliment in there...somewhere.]

Ahh, drink and debate. Now that sounds good. Most people find that, when
they get to know me, my views on many things are really interesting and
realistic if a bit stubborn. Also, most people find that, when they get to
drinking with me, I'm a lush. ;)
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 9
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:35:14 -0600
Quoth TopCat:
>
> At 08:54 AM 7/17/97 +1000, LJ wrote:
> >> Panther Cannon? I'd have a field day with that. I call that severe
> >> powergamer, btw.
>
> >Oh, be reasonable. It's a FASA published item - that means the
> >production team must have envisaged a situation where it would be
> >appropriate. Sure, carrying everywhere you GO is powergaming (and
> >begging for a jail term) but the item in and of itself isn't munchy -
> >it's how and when you use it.
>
> 18D at mammoth ranges is pretty much a powergamer's wet dream with sugar on
> top. It isn't munchy as it is in the rules, but I called it powergaming.
> It's like I've said to my players "you can have anything, just expect
> consequences if you choose to act or purchase unwisely". The better the
> item, the more likely someone will be to attempt to steal it. Also,
> crimelords wouldn't be too happy knowing that some schmoe down the street
> (in their teritory no less) is storing heavy artillery.

I think I like Matt's approach a little better (Matt is one of our
2 GM's). He says "You guys can have any weapon in the book, as long as
I get to shoot you with it first." Needless to say, we have a pretty
conservative group, powerful-item wise. In our current campaign, my
techie/thief/gun-guy (who happens to be the deadliest combat guy so far
in this group) has a Walther PB-120, a Savalette Guardian and a Narcojet
pistol. By keeping the power level low on our side, intentionally, the
power levels encountered will most often match. When the opposing force
is better equipped, it just makes it more fun and challenging.

> >I think your vision of SR is significantly different from mine. That's
> >fine, I respect your right to hold your own interpretations and play the
> >way you like. Please extend us the same courtesy.
>
> As I've said before and will doubtlessly have to say again, play as you
> want. Just don't try to state that powergaming is the norm in the game and
> everything will be just fine. Also, don't try to accomodate powergaming by
> altering the rules to demand such a practice. As far as I know, you haven't
> done so. You've missed my point often by a considerable degree, but
> hopefully this post will cure that.

I don't want to sound too antagonistic here, but you seem to be
contradicting yourself. First you say "play as you want" then you go
on to say "don't try to accomodate powergaming by altering the rules
to demand such a practice." If that is how a group wants to play then
what's wrong with that? We all have our house rules, and every one of
those house rules will look munchkinous or powergamery to someone who
does not play in that group. Live and let live. Now if you were both
arguing a point over game balance within the affected system...

> As to my vision of SR... it's heavy on the roleplaying and light on the
> combat. Numbers matter, but not near as much as they do in most campaigns.
> Good decision-making and proper use of available resources and contacts is
> what defines the success of the runner team.

Aye, what you say is true, the use of contacts and resources is the key
to success, even though in our games we tend to split the combat and
roleplaying about 50/50. Half of us being in combat arms in the military
will do that to a group. :)

--
|
Mike Loseke | You never know how fluffy poodles are,
mike@*******.com | until you step in one.
|
Message no. 10
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:11:20 -0500
At 01:37 AM 7/17/97 -0500, TopCat wrote:
>Ahh, drink and debate. Now that sounds good. Most people find that, when
>they get to know me, my views on many things are really interesting and
>realistic if a bit stubborn. Also, most people find that, when they get to
>drinking with me, I'm a lush. ;)

A _bit_ stubborn? A _BIT_?!?!? Bob, you make me look reasonable in
comparison. And, you're not a lush, you're a big drunk Czech.


Rasputin-the-going-to-GenCon-for-free-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton

Gencon count down: 21 days
Message no. 11
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:28:10 -0600
TopCat wrote:
|
| 18D at mammoth ranges is pretty much a powergamer's wet dream with sugar on
| top. It isn't munchy as it is in the rules, but I called it powergaming.
| It's like I've said to my players "you can have anything, just expect
| consequences if you choose to act or purchase unwisely". The better the
| item, the more likely someone will be to attempt to steal it. Also,
| crimelords wouldn't be too happy knowing that some schmoe down the street
| (in their teritory no less) is storing heavy artillery.

Please keep in mind that the effectiveness of a PAC varies from game
to game, and even from adventure to adventure. If you're playing in
a high combat game involving high intensity conflicts a PAC might be
what the character "needs" to survive. In you're game that isn't the
case, but I just wanted to point out that the definition of
Powergaming varies.

| | I'd probably go off on the character from a powergaming aspect,
but I | haven't seen the character, nor have I seen how your
particular game is | played, nor have I seen how long your character
has been played so I can't | truly make that call. No munchkinism in
those stats that I can see, though...

And here it appears that you agree :)

Also note that a Munchkin isn't defined by his character, but by
himself. I've encountered a Munchkin that didn't have the brains to
crunch the numbers on his character (the Pathetic Munchkin).

| As to my vision of SR... it's heavy on the roleplaying and light on the
| combat. Numbers matter, but not near as much as they do in most campaigns.
| Good decision-making and proper use of available resources and contacts is
| what defines the success of the runner team.

Ditto, but that's your and my campaigns. Please note that I'm not
trying to argue with you, just point a few things. Powergaming has
it's place in a Powergame (which can be a lot of fun if you've got a
good GM). Powergamer does not equal Munchkin. Everybody's game is
different and you should respect their philosophies as much as you
want them to respect yours.

BTW, I respect your views. I don't always agree. Heck, I don't even
always understand what the heck you're ranting about :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 12
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:51:21 -0500
At 08:35 AM 7/17/97 -0600, Mike wrote:
> I think I like Matt's approach a little better (Matt is one of our
>2 GM's). He says "You guys can have any weapon in the book, as long as
>I get to shoot you with it first." Needless to say, we have a pretty
>conservative group, powerful-item wise. In our current campaign, my
>techie/thief/gun-guy (who happens to be the deadliest combat guy so far
>in this group) has a Walther PB-120, a Savalette Guardian and a Narcojet
>pistol. By keeping the power level low on our side, intentionally, the
>power levels encountered will most often match. When the opposing force
>is better equipped, it just makes it more fun and challenging.

Sounds good to me and it's essentially what I do as well. I told my players
to think about this...

What would you do if you saw a guy regularly walking down the street with a
shotgun in his hands? What would the police do? What would local gangers
and criminal orgs do? Now change that shotgun to whatever weapon you want
and then tell me what you want to buy...

>> As I've said before and will doubtlessly have to say again, play as you
>> want. Just don't try to state that powergaming is the norm in the game and
>> everything will be just fine. Also, don't try to accomodate powergaming by
>> altering the rules to demand such a practice. As far as I know, you haven't
>> done so. You've missed my point often by a considerable degree, but
>> hopefully this post will cure that.

> I don't want to sound too antagonistic here, but you seem to be
>contradicting yourself. First you say "play as you want" then you go
>on to say "don't try to accomodate powergaming by altering the rules
>to demand such a practice." If that is how a group wants to play then
>what's wrong with that? We all have our house rules, and every one of
>those house rules will look munchkinous or powergamery to someone who
>does not play in that group. Live and let live. Now if you were both
>arguing a point over game balance within the affected system...

Not contradicting and you and I are actually on the same wavelength here. I
don't want the actual canonical rules of SR changed to expect and demand
powergaming. As they are now, they are fine in many regards (combat spells
being one of those). The rules do not currently demand powergaming, though,
like all systems, they are susceptible to it. If canonical combat spell
rules were changed to fit the viewpoint of a powergamed campaign, then
gradually everyone would *have* to be powergamed in order to survive
(low-powered games would be impossible due to powergamed canonical rules).

This practice works much like nuclear escalation. Make one aspect of a game
more powerful and the others rush to equal and then exceed that level.
Evetually we all end up playing Rifts because it's the lowest-powered game
out there...

I have no problem with powergamed.munchkinous house rules so long as they
remain house rules (not in my house) and not canon. So were we really off
on this topic or not?
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 13
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:54:22 -0500
At 10:11 AM 7/17/97 -0500, Mike wrote:
>At 01:37 AM 7/17/97 -0500, TopCat wrote:
>>Ahh, drink and debate. Now that sounds good. Most people find that, when
>>they get to know me, my views on many things are really interesting and
>>realistic if a bit stubborn. Also, most people find that, when they get to
>>drinking with me, I'm a lush. ;)

>A _bit_ stubborn? A _BIT_?!?!? Bob, you make me look reasonable in
>comparison.

Heh. I think we're both on par when it comes to how stubborn we are. Now
Nelson, on the other hand... ;)

>And, you're not a lush, you're a big drunk Czech.

Am not! I'm not drunk right now and I've got some Dutch blood in me too...
of course the drunk part could change at any moment ;)
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 14
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:12:23 -0500
At 12:28 PM 7/17/97 -0600, David wrote:
>Also note that a Munchkin isn't defined by his character, but by
>himself. I've encountered a Munchkin that didn't have the brains to
>crunch the numbers on his character (the Pathetic Munchkin).

Agreed, Munchkins need not be able to powergame to be munchkins, but in
their character lies the expression of their tendencies. There are many
munchkins out there who don't know the rules of a game, but they know what
will allow them to win every fight while keeping them safe from harm and
they'll strive to make that happen in any way they can (preferrably with
some unique super-powerful item). I appear to have trashed my treatise on
munchkins, but the thread that recently popped up here did a good job
describing them.

>| As to my vision of SR... it's heavy on the roleplaying and light on the
>| combat. Numbers matter, but not near as much as they do in most campaigns.
>| Good decision-making and proper use of available resources and contacts is
>| what defines the success of the runner team.

>Ditto, but that's your and my campaigns. Please note that I'm not
>trying to argue with you, just point a few things. Powergaming has
>it's place in a Powergame (which can be a lot of fun if you've got a
>good GM). Powergamer does not equal Munchkin. Everybody's game is
>different and you should respect their philosophies as much as you
>want them to respect yours.

Agreed! Powergaming does have it's place in a Powergame. Perfectly said.
In a game where powergaming is the norm then it is fine, but it is still
powergaming. I've never said that powergamer means munchkin (why does
everyone think I said this?).

I don't have to respect various gaming philosophies, just as I don't have to
respect various people or practices. Not a very nice sentiment, I know, but
it's the way I am and, I think, the way we all are to one degree or another.
I don't respect munchkinous games and I have little respect if any for some
of the powergames out there. Not respecting a given gaming philosophy and
banning it from practice are two very different things though. I can't do
the latter.

>BTW, I respect your views. I don't always agree. Heck, I don't even
>always understand what the heck you're ranting about :)

I'm a tough guy to want to agree with... heh
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 15
From: Mike Nelson <kuthuga@***.NET>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:15:34 -0500
> Heh. I think we're both on par when it comes to how stubborn we are. Now
> Nelson, on the other hand... ;)

What!? how the heck did I get in on this. I always bow to a reasoned
arguement Bob you just rarely give me one. Remember its only
overconfidence if I fail and only stubborness if im not right.

So quoth the big fookin Irishman
Mike Nelson
mike@***.net
Message no. 16
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:19:31 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-17 03:03:10 EDT, chaos@*****.COM (Bull) writes:

> Heh... Should I post Bull's stats? i think his lowest is now a 5...
<heh>
>
> But then, when you get close to 400 Karma, what the hell do you expect??
> Look at the shit we have to do...
>
>
I would have to say the same thing about Binder actually, though his karma is
a few higher than that.

-Keith (who is really wishing he could get some of these "bigger guys" in one
room for a game, just -ONCE-)
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:31:59 +0100
TopCat said on 16:12/17 Jul 97...

> I've never said that powergamer means munchkin (why does everyone think
> I said this?).

Maybe because many people think they're the same thing? I don't have a
problem with powergaming, if it fits in with the rest of the game, but
overstepping the line and going munchkin is something I heavily
discourage...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
All these worthless nights, all these wasted days
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 18
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:09:32 -0600
TopCat wrote:
|
| >Everybody's game is
| >different and you should respect their philosophies as much as you
| >want them to respect yours.
|
| I don't have to respect various gaming philosophies, just as I don't have to
| respect various people or practices. Not a very nice sentiment, I know, but
| it's the way I am and, I think, the way we all are to one degree or another.
| I don't respect munchkinous games and I have little respect if any for some
| of the powergames out there. Not respecting a given gaming philosophy and
| banning it from practice are two very different things though. I can't do
| the latter.

Okay, point taken :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 19
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:02:16 +0100
In article <970717201929_-1845253330@*******.mail.aol.com>, "J. Keith
Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM> rambled on endlessly about We Don't Need No
Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
>In a message dated 97-07-17 03:03:10 EDT, chaos@*****.COM (Bull) writes:
>
>> Heh... Should I post Bull's stats? i think his lowest is now a 5...
> <heh>
>>
>> But then, when you get close to 400 Karma, what the hell do you expect??
>> Look at the shit we have to do...
>>
>>
>I would have to say the same thing about Binder actually, though his karma is
>a few higher than that.


Fascinating, in five years of playing Shadowrun, none of my players have
had characters, even the long term ones, anywhere near this Karma total.
Boy am I going to lynched if they find out. :)


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 20
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:54:17 -0700
Avenger wrote:
>
> In article <970717201929_-1845253330@*******.mail.aol.com>, "J. Keith
> Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM> rambled on endlessly about We Don't Need No
> Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
> >In a message dated 97-07-17 03:03:10 EDT, chaos@*****.COM (Bull) writes:
> >
> >> Heh... Should I post Bull's stats? i think his lowest is now a 5...
> > <heh>
> >>
> >> But then, when you get close to 400 Karma, what the hell do you expect??
> >> Look at the shit we have to do...
> >>
> >>
> >I would have to say the same thing about Binder actually, though his karma is
> >a few higher than that.
>
> Fascinating, in five years of playing Shadowrun, none of my players have
> had characters, even the long term ones, anywhere near this Karma total.
> Boy am I going to lynched if they find out. :)

Us either...I think I had the highest total ever with somewhere in the
neighborhood of 200.

Caric
Message no. 21
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:33:52 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-18 05:59:47 EDT, dbuehrer@****.ORG (David Buehrer)
writes:

>
> Please keep in mind that the effectiveness of a PAC varies from game
> to game, and even from adventure to adventure. If you're playing in
> a high combat game involving high intensity conflicts a PAC might be
> what the character "needs" to survive. In you're game that isn't the
> case, but I just wanted to point out that the definition of
> Powergaming varies.
>
>
I have to agree. Recently the characters here went after Ubyr on the
Illinois. Sure it helped, but they couldn't stand it when the gun's shots
got a -bit- too close to their fighting. The troll with it (a phys ad, his
sword is his preferred weapon) didn't pay attention and nailed a friend.
Actually, he nailed himself too. Gotta love the AP variation shells.
-Keith
Message no. 22
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:45:40 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-18 08:22:29 EDT, topcat@***.NET (TopCat) writes:

>
> What would you do if you saw a guy regularly walking down the street with
a
> shotgun in his hands? What would the police do? What would local gangers
> and criminal orgs do? Now change that shotgun to whatever weapon you want
> and then tell me what you want to buy...
>
>
Actually, one of my more striking early memories of Phoenix Arizona was of a
guy on a motorcycle (probably a Harley, who knows) riding along the road -in-
the city limits, he had a Shotgun (BIG THING), a Katana (No, I'm not kidding)
and what could have been a "heavy pistol". It didn't seem to stop him, and
the police officer was driving two cars behind him. Talk about a change in
society.
-Keith
Message no. 23
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:58:34 +0100
In message <199707172051.PAA02084@*******.fgi.net>, TopCat
>Sounds good to me and it's essentially what I do as well. I told my players
>to think about this...
>
>What would you do if you saw a guy regularly walking down the street with a
>shotgun in his hands? What would the police do? What would local gangers
>and criminal orgs do? Now change that shotgun to whatever weapon you want
>and then tell me what you want to buy...

Sometimes still the big guns. But any weapon whose Concealability can't
be put up to 6 or higher is a rare sighting in a city (amazing how
popular concealable holsters and long coats become. Summer's a bitch,
though...)

If your campaign takes you into Southern Africa or some other area,
which in our game is decidedly lively, then assault rifles, MMGs, and
other infantry weapons are common... because _everyone_ (everyone likely
to be a threat, anyway) has them anyway, and it would be odd if you
_weren't_ carrying them.

Let them be seen in a UCAS city, though, and you're talking emergency
callouts of SWAT teams...

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 24
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:27:10 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-18 18:34:11 EDT, Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK writes:

>
>
> Fascinating, in five years of playing Shadowrun, none of my players have
> had characters, even the long term ones, anywhere near this Karma total.
> Boy am I going to lynched if they find out. :)
>
>
(Pondering) That ain't wrong, but the lynching horns can be bought by a fixer
for a reasonable price. It's in Karma though, so you're players are probably
safe... +)
-Keith
Message no. 25
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:23:36 -0400
At 03:54 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Caric wrote these timeless words:
>Avenger wrote:

>> Fascinating, in five years of playing Shadowrun, none of my players have
>> had characters, even the long term ones, anywhere near this Karma total.
>> Boy am I going to lynched if they find out. :)
>
>Us either...I think I had the highest total ever with somewhere in the
>neighborhood of 200.
>
Well... Consider this...

We played AT LEAST twice a week for a year, and at least once a week the
second year. Things have been a bit more sparse since then, but I'd have
to say we've played something like over 100 game sessions in the last 4
years with these characters. That averages out to 4 Karma a night, which
sounds right on par...;]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 26
From: hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 00:30:52 -0700
<SNIP>
> Actually, one of my more striking early memories of Phoenix Arizona was
of a
> guy on a motorcycle (probably a Harley, who knows) riding along the road
-in-
> the city limits, he had a Shotgun (BIG THING), a Katana (No, I'm not
kidding)
> and what could have been a "heavy pistol". It didn't seem to stop him,
and
> the police officer was driving two cars behind him. Talk about a change
in
> society.
> -Keith

Arizona is an "open" carry state. So long as the weapon is in plain view,
no license is needed to carry it.

MoonShadow

In the begining Man created God;
and in the image of Man created he him

hernandez@********.com
Message no. 27
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:33:23 -0500
At 18-Jul-97 wrote Caric:


>Us either...I think I had the highest total ever with somewhere in the
>neighborhood of 200.

As I have mention at the beginning of the week I have just crossed
500 karma :-]

--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 28
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:13:02 +0100
In article <3.0.16.19970718221917.2faf8e5c@*****.com>, Bull
<chaos@*****.COM> rambled on endlessly about We Don't Need No Stinkin'
Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
>At 03:54 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Caric wrote these timeless words:
>>Avenger wrote:
>
>>> Fascinating, in five years of playing Shadowrun, none of my players have
>>> had characters, even the long term ones, anywhere near this Karma total.
>>> Boy am I going to lynched if they find out. :)
>>
>>Us either...I think I had the highest total ever with somewhere in the
>>neighborhood of 200.
>>
>Well... Consider this...
>
>We played AT LEAST twice a week for a year, and at least once a week the
>second year. Things have been a bit more sparse since then, but I'd have
>to say we've played something like over 100 game sessions in the last 4
>years with these characters. That averages out to 4 Karma a night, which
>sounds right on par...;]

My guys played every weekend, religiously up unitl just before Christmas
last year, Saturday nights were Shadowrun night, in preference to
anything else. At the moment we're playing every second weekend so that
those who have a life, can indulge in it. <scarey people - those who
have a life that is> :)

With the new characters, they've had three sessions now, and haven't
earned one Karma point yet. Hmm... maybe I'm just a stingy git. :) But
I don't feel like awarding Karma after every session, regardless of
whether the players feel they've earned it. Karma gets awarded at the
end of the "scenario/campaign", and it's not usually high, unless
they've had a _really_ tough time of it.

I think the highest Karma a character has had, is 182, and that was a
three year old once a week character.

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 29
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:17:02 -0400
On Saturday, July 19, 1997 20:33, Barbie[SMTP:barbie@**********.COM] wrote:
> At 18-Jul-97 wrote Caric:
>
>
> >Us either...I think I had the highest total ever with somewhere in the
> >neighborhood of 200.
>
> As I have mention at the beginning of the week I have just crossed
> 500 karma :-]

In may campaign, I have a few people close to the 300 mark, and one
approaching 400. OTOH, I have been running the same campaign for ~5 years,
with various players, and some of the PCs have retired for a while. Also,
if the player says "I don't know what to do with my karma," I reccommend
retirement for a while.

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 30
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:52:39 -0700
hernandez wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
> > Actually, one of my more striking early memories of Phoenix Arizona was
> of a
> > guy on a motorcycle (probably a Harley, who knows) riding along the road
> -in-
> > the city limits, he had a Shotgun (BIG THING), a Katana (No, I'm not
> kidding)
> > and what could have been a "heavy pistol". It didn't seem to stop
him,
> and
> > the police officer was driving two cars behind him. Talk about a change
> in
> > society.


> Arizona is an "open" carry state. So long as the weapon is in plain view,
> no license is needed to carry it.

...and even more astounding is that firearms do not need to be
registered here. IN fact all that has to be visible of the gun is a
portion, or a portion of the holster (a throw back to WWII days when
soldiers were coming home with the 'ol flop over style holsters that
completely cover the gun.)

Caric-the-just-a-little-more-useless-info-shaman
Message no. 31
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:37:05 -0700
Barbie wrote:
>
> At 18-Jul-97 wrote Caric:
>
> >Us either...I think I had the highest total ever with somewhere in the
> >neighborhood of 200.
>
> As I have mention at the beginning of the week I have just crossed
> 500 karma :-]

Right, I was just pointing out the highest total in our group, and Caric
is dead now anyway so I think the highest total is 5 right now. :)

Caric
Message no. 32
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:12:47 +0100
|Right, I was just pointing out the highest total in our group, and Caric
|is dead now anyway so I think the highest total is 5 right now. :)
|
|Caric
|

*GASP*
You're dead?????

Didn't know.... Will you put this flower on his grave for me?
:)

. - ~ ~,
.~_ . - ~.'~_~.
.--~-. | {
'-~ -. }.;
_.__|.~.{ _ _ .-:
---._ .| .-~ .-~ }
\ \__ .~ .-~ .~
\ \' \ '_ _ -~
.. //
. - ~ ~-.__.-.//
.-~ . - ~ }~ ~ ~-.~-.
.' .-~ .-~ |/~-.~-./|
/_~_ _ . - ~ ~-.~-._

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk | |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:-| "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 33
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:09:18 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-20 12:14:19 EDT, jhurley1@************.EDU (Jonathan
Hurley) writes:

>
> In may campaign, I have a few people close to the 300 mark, and one
> approaching 400. OTOH, I have been running the same campaign for ~5 years,
> with various players, and some of the PCs have retired for a while. Also,
> if the player says "I don't know what to do with my karma," I reccommend
> retirement for a while.
>
>
Actually, I don't think I've ever had a player tell me that, and I admit
openly to having higher than normal karma awards (normal being 5-9 for a two
game session, not counting team awards). A few have asked for ideas, but
they have always come around with other thoughts.

My favorite is when they start learning their own b/r skills and such, or
Enchanting and doing their own foci.
-Keith
Message no. 34
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Munchies!!! [Was Sr3 Combat spells]
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:11:48 -0500
You wrote:
> Actually, I don't think I've ever had a player tell me that, and I admit
> openly to having higher than normal karma awards (normal being 5-9 for a two
> game session, not counting team awards). A few have asked for ideas, but
> they have always come around with other thoughts.

> My favorite is when they start learning their own b/r skills and such, or
> Enchanting and doing their own foci.
Had a street samurai in one campaign back in high school decide he wanted to
learn MAgical Theory and design spells... Basically just as a hobby. :)

losthalo

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