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Message no. 1
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Weird Campaigns
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:09:23 -0700
Has anyone ever run just a truly whack-ass campaign? I was toying with a
few ideas not too long ago, and the thought of an all-Matrix campaign came
to mind. Several characters, presumably deckers, in widely different
locations, all connected via the matrix. Thought it would be a neat change
of pace. I even have a rough idea for rules for an AI PC... though I don't
have any idea what it would do to game balance. The thought also occured
to me of expert systems based off of neural recordings of deceased
characters, kinda like that guy in Neuromancer...

Anyway, was wondering if anyone had done anything similar, or if anyone had
other off-beat campaigns that they've been in or ran.
Message no. 2
From: Joshuwa Jenkins <colossus@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:30:20 -0400
Jeremy "Bolthy" Zimmerman wrote:

> Has anyone ever run just a truly whack-ass campaign?


I figured you would have made a campaign based on Discordia...

Make Eris a powerful free spirit, in with Bob Dobbs as the Mr. J.

RAW is the man behind it all, pulling the strings, but only has an experiment
in gonzo sociology. (he would be like 115 years old...)

The Matrix is just a big prank, and so it the year 205x. But the caracters
wouldn't know that til the end after they confront RAW.

Just a thought
Message no. 3
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:44:25 EDT
Topic about "Does anyone else have weird campaigns"...

I would have to say that our entire campaign is one weird idea, especially
when placed into comparison with Erik's overbred shadow of an ego there
Jeremy.

We have tried to get everyone into an "All Matrix" game, -ALMOST- did it too.
Right now, everyone but the new people all have at least a VCR of Level 1, so
we are probably closer to an "All Rigger" game than anything.

I know we've had the "All Magically Active" game, which was fun for it's time,
which has simply come and gone.

When I think about it, and listen to all the stories that I have heard from
all the people on this list and on .frp.cyber, I keep thinking to myself
"...wow, Our games are pretty tame compared to theirs..." that includes
Erik's...

-K (who is too tired to care anymore)
Message no. 4
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:01:49 -0400
At 05:30 PM 5/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Jeremy "Bolthy" Zimmerman wrote:
>
>> Has anyone ever run just a truly whack-ass campaign?
>
>I figured you would have made a campaign based on Discordia...
>
>Make Eris a powerful free spirit, in with Bob Dobbs as the Mr. J.
>
>RAW is the man behind it all, pulling the strings, but only has an experiment
>in gonzo sociology. (he would be like 115 years old...)
>
>The Matrix is just a big prank, and so it the year 205x. But the caracters
>wouldn't know that til the end after they confront RAW.


That's wild. I don't think I'm twisted enough to pull it off for an entire
campaign, but that's wild.

Oh, for those us you who don't know what "RAW" is, I would suggest checking
out his website, which is interesting. The URL is www.rawilson.com

Hey, Nexx, you tried this yet?

Erik J.

Fight the Future on June 19th!


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 5
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:42:12 -0600
At 12:09 18/05/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Has anyone ever run just a truly whack-ass campaign? I was toying with a
>few ideas not too long ago, and the thought of an all-Matrix campaign came
>to mind. Several characters, presumably deckers, in widely different
>locations, all connected via the matrix.

Wierd? I know at least 2 groups that have done that in RL, and I was about
to try it myself when some.. changes happened in my campaign.

-Adam
Magic, now that stuff is wierd shit.
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 6
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:43:58 +1000
Adam J writes:
>>Has anyone ever run just a truly whack-ass campaign? I was toying with a
>>few ideas not too long ago, and the thought of an all-Matrix campaign came
>>to mind. Several characters, presumably deckers, in widely different
>>locations, all connected via the matrix.
>
>Wierd? I know at least 2 groups that have done that in RL, and I was about
>to try it myself when some.. changes happened in my campaign.


Actually, with SOTA rules, decker groups will do much better than individual
deckers, as they can share their SOTA upgrades. I've toyed with the idea of
a decker campaign several times, but my players have never been interested
enough. I've never considered an _all_ Matrix campaign, though... the decker
campaigns I've thought of still have _some_ interaction with the real world,
like when the Trace IC beats you down and the corp hit team is about to
pound on the door.

Seriously, though, a well-organised decker cartel will do so much better
than equally talented individual decker cartels that the only excuse for the
number of individual deckers must be the surly nature of programmers. :)
(Or, more likely, they modelled the decker image on the modern hacker
image... people meet and share info fairly often, but don't usually work in
groups. Such groups as do exist are quite small).

One problem with multiple deckers is that a system will go on alert status a
lot faster if there are more people in the system. More unauthorised
actions, the faster the alert status rises... :)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 7
From: Nexx3 <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:45:58 EDT
In a message dated 98-05-18 20:09:25 EDT, you write:

<< Oh, for those us you who don't know what "RAW" is, I would suggest
checking
out his website, which is interesting. The URL is www.rawilson.com

Hey, Nexx, you tried this yet?
>>

The campaign or the website?

The website is update seasonally (as far as I can tell), and I check it
weekly. The campaign... well, I'm sans gamers at the moment, so no, I haven't
given it a shot.

However, I have played a priest of Eris in both AD&D and Palladium. Both
characters were killed in the first session, simply to save me the trouble of
dying horribly at someone elses hands (the party wanted the honor of killing
him, I believe it was said). As for SR, I would give priests of Eris +3 dice
for Illusions and thought manipulations... that stuff will royally fuck with
your head.

Pope Nexx Many-Scars, Head Episkipossum of the Kevhead and Silly Moon Cabals,
Eris's Love Child, K.S.C.
Message no. 8
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 01:19:52 -0400
>Has anyone ever run just a truly whack-ass campaign?

Nope. Not me. My campaigns are all simple and by the book. ;-)
<He don't know me very well, do he?>
OK, I admit it. All my campaigns are "Whack-Ass!"

>Anyway, was wondering if anyone had done anything similar, or if anyone had
>other off-beat campaigns that they've been in or ran.

Let's see ... I did a Genetic Experiments campaign.
Each of the PC's was a real oddball meta-type. I had a vampire, a
were-cheetah (keep in mind this was in SR1 days, so he WAS an oddball!) a
sasquatch and a few others I can't remember.
I made the PC's and kept the character sheets. So none of the players knew
what they were playing. I simply described them generally, and let it go
from there.
The game started when the group all woke up naked in a dumpster.
(Their experiments were deemed faiures and they were to be "disposed of" a
soft-hearted scientist set them free, rather than killing them.)
The catch here was that the experiments were all in socializing these
"non-human" metas, so aside from the sasquatch, none of the others knew that
they were anything but a normal human. Their memories were erased
completely.
The vampire found out what he was pretty quick when the sun came up, and the
shapeshifter learned about regeneration quickly as well.

Bull has been bugging me to let him play his kids, so I might work up an
"Son of Sam-I-Am" campaign, in which the current players all play their kids
in the future (Maybe around 2075, when the kids will be old enough for some
fun!)

I just finished reading Terry Pratchet's "Men at Arms" and I've been
dreaming up a Lone Star campaign where the players all play completely
mundane-non-cybered rookie cops. Just to make the Pplayers really live by
their wits! ;-)

We're working on an all aquatic campaign too. All the PC's will be Water
Elemental Adepts, Aquatic Shamans, or amphibious were-critters.
Right now I'm leaning toward making the team part of Aqua Arcana from CFS,
but I might go the easy route and let them be Butt-Pirates of the
Carribbean! ;-)
<For some reason they ALL wanna kill Gingerbread Man?!?>

I've been considering doing up a SR version of White-Wolf's Changeling, or
maybe just a WOD/SR crossover campaign, where we use SR rules and setting,
but mix in the WOD races of the Kindred, Garou, and Kithain.
Of course I'll never get this done until I finish my SR re-write of Over the
Edge, so don't hold your breath ... ;-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men." - 2
Days until The Return
Message no. 9
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 02:24:16 EDT
In a message dated 5/19/98 12:19:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
bluewizard@*****.COM writes:

> Bull has been bugging me to let him play his kids, so I might work up an
> "Son of Sam-I-Am" campaign, in which the current players all play their
kids
> in the future (Maybe around 2075, when the kids will be old enough for some
> fun!)
>
Replying to just this part...Tinner a word of caution/advice if you will.
I've been here, so has Mike. It can be fun, but it can haunt you later....

-K
Message no. 10
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 05:26:26 -0500
> Re: Weird Campaigns (Robert Watkins , Mon 20:43)

> One problem with multiple deckers is that a system will go on alert status a
> lot faster if there are more people in the system. More unauthorised
> actions, the faster the alert status rises... :)

Alert status can be worked around; the alert is sounded universally,
but security tallies for each decker are SEPERATE (otherwise, IC would
jump EVERYBODY, even legit users). A good tactic would be to have one
decker log on and find a file, and another download or edit it, to keep
individual security tallies very low, likely avoiding ANY alert.
Communication would be crucial, but could be done with deck to deck
connections or Cybercom links.

-X Mongoose
Message no. 11
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns -Reply
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:25:07 -0500
Wafflemeisters wrote:
> Alert status can be worked around; the alert is sounded
> universally, but security tallies for each decker are SEPERATE
> (otherwise, IC would jump EVERYBODY, even legit users).

No, legit users have valid passcodes and attempt "suspicious" actions
infrequently. Tallies are global, which is why the first few entries on a
security sheath are things like probe or white ice--otherwise the first
dweeb who forgets his passcode and asks for the wrong file gets
phychotropically altered.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 12
From: MCP <MCP@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns -Reply
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:52:19 -0700
> From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM> Tuesday, May 19, 1998 9:25 AM
>
> Wafflemeisters wrote:
> > Alert status can be worked around; the alert is sounded
> > universally, but security tallies for each decker are SEPERATE
> > (otherwise, IC would jump EVERYBODY, even legit users).
>
> No, legit users have valid passcodes and attempt "suspicious" actions
> infrequently. Tallies are global, which is why the first few entries on
a
> security sheath are things like probe or white ice--otherwise the first
> dweeb who forgets his passcode and asks for the wrong file gets
> phychotropically altered.
>
But what happens when there is a decker in the system who has upped the
tally to a dangerous level (say one or two points short of black ICE),
and the VP of Engineering tries to log on, and types his password wrong?

I know it is unlikely, but it only has to happen once before the security
system is changed corp-wide.

MCP
Message no. 13
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:01:59 -0400
At 06:44 PM 5/18/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Topic about "Does anyone else have weird campaigns"...
>
>I would have to say that our entire campaign is one weird idea, especially
>when placed into comparison with Erik's overbred shadow of an ego there
>Jeremy.

*sigh*

I'm not sure how to react to this.

Keith, yes, to me and to some others the game you are involved in would
definitely be weird. But then again, I'm not sure you'd enjoy our games,
so if you enjoy yours, fine. Have fun. That's what this is all about
after all.

I simply don't like many of the ideas that you have, or that arise from the
game you are in. The only thing I have to help me understand what you are
doing is through a single commonality that this entire list supposedly
shares, and that is Shadowrun. I try to explain/understand everything from
a more "canon" perspective. Yes, to a certain extent that means I'm
close-minded; if something doesn't have a strong relation to SR canon, it's
difficult for me to understand. It's the point of reference from which I
relate to FASA, RN, TK and my players with. It appears that your frame of
reference is different from mine.

Which is fine.

If you think I, or others, are picking on you in some way, it's because you
are just as vocal as I am. We know there are people with stranger SR ideas
than you, but you are the most vocal so I will admit to singling you out
sometimes, perhaps unfairly.

Why did this go to the list? To remind everyone that while we may spend
some serious time with this game and while we may spend a large amount of
brain sweat on this game, it's still just a game. It's supposed to be for
fun. Keith, as long as you are having fun in your game, then outstanding.
I'm having fun in mind.

Have fun.

Erik J.

"Overblown shadow of an ego? My ego's not a shadow of anything buddy, it's
totally overblown!! I have trouble fitting through doorways with my ego!!
It's HUGE!!! My ego is so large it can spotted from space with the naked
eye!!!"
;-)
Message no. 14
From: walker of shadows <wkr_shadows@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns -Reply
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:57:11 PDT
>> From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM> Tuesday, May 19, 1998 9:25 AM
>>
>> Wafflemeisters wrote:
>> > Alert status can be worked around; the alert is sounded
>> > universally, but security tallies for each decker are SEPERATE
>> > (otherwise, IC would jump EVERYBODY, even legit users).
>>
>> No, legit users have valid passcodes and attempt "suspicious" actions
>> infrequently. Tallies are global, which is why the first few entries
on
>a
>> security sheath are things like probe or white ice--otherwise the
first
>> dweeb who forgets his passcode and asks for the wrong file gets
>> phychotropically altered.
>>
>But what happens when there is a decker in the system who has upped the
>tally to a dangerous level (say one or two points short of black ICE),
>and the VP of Engineering tries to log on, and types his password
wrong?
>
>I know it is unlikely, but it only has to happen once before the
security
>system is changed corp-wide.
>
>MCP
>

That would allow an interesting twist on a decking run, and would serve
as a great campaign twist. Of course, the GM has the say to do that
just as the character is starting the download of the crucial file...

Walker Of Shadows


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 15
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:13:14 EDT
In a message dated 5/19/98 1:07:29 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> "Overblown shadow of an ego? My ego's not a shadow of anything buddy, it's
> totally overblown!! I have trouble fitting through doorways with my ego!!
> It's HUGE!!! My ego is so large it can spotted from space with the naked
> eye!!!"
> ;-)
>
I have absolutely no problem believing this statement what-so-ever...

-K
Message no. 16
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:18:19 -0600
Erik Jameson wrote:
/
/ "Overblown shadow of an ego? My ego's not a shadow of anything buddy, it's
/ totally overblown!! I have trouble fitting through doorways with my ego!!
/ It's HUGE!!! My ego is so large it can spotted from space with the naked
/ eye!!!"
/ ;-)

<tries to picture Erik with an afro the size of OJ's in the Naked Gun>

;)

-David
--
"Never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
For you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 17
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns -Reply -Reply
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:35:42 -0500
>> Wafflemeisters wrote:
>> > Alert status can be worked around; the alert is sounded
>> > universally, but security tallies for each decker are SEPERATE
>> > (otherwise, IC would jump EVERYBODY, even legit users).
>>
>> No, legit users have valid passcodes and attempt "suspicious"
actions
>> infrequently. Tallies are global, which is why the first few entries on
a
>> security sheath are things like probe or white ice--otherwise the first
>> dweeb who forgets his passcode and asks for the wrong file gets
>> phychotropically altered.
>>
<then MCP wrote:>
>But what happens when there is a decker in the system who has
> upped the tally to a dangerous level (say one or two points short of
>black ICE), and the VP of Engineering tries to log on, and types his
>password wrong?

Well, what happens is the system kicks off the back ice, which then
figures out what it should attack. Most of the tally came from the
decker, and just a little came from the VP. The ICE decieds to kill the
decker first, then locks out the VP's session, preventing future log in
attempts. VP fumes, but when shown the system logs indicating that
the ICE encountered a decker, has to admit that it was "just doing it's
job". Note that to get the Black ICE, the previous security sheaves found
something wrong and flaged it, so the ICE has a pretty good idea of
where the decker is (subject to Masking and Evasion, of course).

System designers who put Black ICE in early sheaves deserve what
they get (occasional toasted employees).

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 18
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:45:25 -0500
>
> Re: Weird Campaigns -Reply -Reply (Mike Elkins , Tue 16:35)
>
> >> Wafflemeisters wrote:
> >> > Alert status can be worked around; the alert is sounded
> >> > universally, but security tallies for each decker are SEPERATE
> >> > (otherwise, IC would jump EVERYBODY, even legit users).
> >>
> >> No, legit users have valid passcodes and attempt "suspicious"
> actions
> >> infrequently. Tallies are global, which is why the first few entries on
> a
> >> security sheath are things like probe or white ice--otherwise the first
> >> dweeb who forgets his passcode and asks for the wrong file gets
> >> phychotropically altered.
> >>
> <then MCP wrote:>
> >But what happens when there is a decker in the system who has
> > upped the tally to a dangerous level (say one or two points short of
> >black ICE), and the VP of Engineering tries to log on, and types his
> >password wrong?
>
> Well, what happens is the system kicks off the back ice, which then
> figures out what it should attack. Most of the tally came from the
> decker, and just a little came from the VP. The ICE decieds to kill the
> decker first, then locks out the VP's session, preventing future log in
> attempts. VP fumes, but when shown the system logs indicating that
> the ICE encountered a decker, has to admit that it was "just doing it's
> job". Note that to get the Black ICE, the previous security sheaves found
> something wrong and flaged it, so the ICE has a pretty good idea of
> where the decker is (subject to Masking and Evasion, of course).
>
> System designers who put Black ICE in early sheaves deserve what
> they get (occasional toasted employees).
>
> Double-Domed Mike

So, supposedly, the system traks TOTAL security tally, and also the
amount genrated by each "illegal" user? (disignated HOW, as opposed to
those using "validate passcode", or those "invalidated" by an
intruding
decker?)
HMM, so an easy way for a corp decker to make things tough for an
intruder would be to perform some illegal opps, uppin the tally. A
system crash would piss off the corp, but so would stolen data... And
"invalidating" somebody would be a potential assasination technique...
I'm pretty damn sure I found a passage in VR2 that confirms that
Tallies are NOT global, but I loaned out my anotated copy and only have
the "collectors edition" here. I can't find anything that says they ARE
global, or refers to deckerS, plural, when referencing security
tallies. If tallies are global, frames would be a LOT less useful,
generally having dreck for detection factors...

-Mongoose X
Message no. 19
From: DisnyShamn <DisnyShamn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:14:52 EDT
> I'm pretty damn sure I found a passage in VR2 that confirms that
> Tallies are NOT global, but I loaned out my anotated copy and only have
> the "collectors edition" here. I can't find anything that says they ARE
> global, or refers to deckerS, plural, when referencing security
> tallies. If tallies are global, frames would be a LOT less useful,
> generally having dreck for detection factors...

I seem to recall a reference in VR2 to systems remaining "alert" for awhile
after a decker has logged off. This would necessitate some sort of globalness
of security tally. I'd suggest a compromise;

Let's look at what happens when a security tally is raised; the system becomes
increasingly "aware" of an intruder; alarms are going off. Now, this SHOULD,
if the system had an at-all-logical designer, kick in some general diagnostics
and whatnot. But the more you do, the easier it will be to locate you, in
particular. I can think of a few ways to do this; one requires some
bookkeeping, another monkeys with the rules in VR2 a bit and makes any long
duration very nasty, and the last makes team-decking a bt too safe.

1. Security tally IS global, but a given user/decker is tracked ONLY from the
point at which he entered the system. That is, if Decker Bob had a tally of 12
when Decker Cindy-Lu-Hoo comes in, the can both raise the tally, but for her
it starts at 0.
Example: if he raises it another 2 and she blunders it up by 3, it's raised a
total of 5 for both, raising him to 17, but her to only 5.

2. The Sec Tally somehow LOWERS the decker's Detection rating. Every 3 points
or something? Thus, the longer a decker is in the system, the more obviously
he/she is the target, but it'd still be a danger to say security deckers doing
illegal stuff (it might notice them, it's just mroe likely to notice the
other).

3. Tally is figured individually, only until two people even out; then it's
cumulative.
Example: Decker Bob is at 12 again when Decker Cindy arrives. She accumulates
a tally normally, but doesn't trigger anything until she hits 12 (unless Bob
gains some; anyway, until she's even with Bob); he has "blazed a datatrail"
fro her, and she can avoid sprung IC. Once they're even, they add to one
another's tally.

4. (Probably simplest) Sec tallies are partially global; that is, most of it
is individual, each decker gaining a seperate tally as "normal", but some
pervcentage (say, every 5th level) adds to a "general tally", increasing
EVERYONE'S tally (though this will only trigger IC on the person(s) actually
performing the action).

- Disney Shaman
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:36:52 +0100
DisnyShamn said on 20:14/20 May 98...

> I seem to recall a reference in VR2 to systems remaining "alert" for awhile
> after a decker has logged off. This would necessitate some sort of globalness
> of security tally. I'd suggest a compromise;
[snip]

Partly related to this, I thought about security tallies about a week ago,
and it suddenly dawned on me that it should be possible to erase or
inflate them... After all, it's just data kept on a computer somewhere, so
the decker should be able to in- or decrease the counter. However, looking
through VR 2.0 I couldn't find a system operation that allows this...

The way to go about this would, I guess, be to do a Locate File to find
the file (or memory address) containing the security tallies, and then an
Edit File operation to change them. If you do a Validate Passcode or
Invalidate Passcode before this, you should be able to erase your security
tally and appear a completely legitimate user, or do the opposite for
security deckers.

However, I think there'd be some protection built into the system, for
example that only supervisor-level users can alter security tallies. Any
thoughts?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
En ik zal het heen twee keer zehhen.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 21
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 04:32:13 -0600
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>


>However, I think there'd be some protection built into the system, for
>example that only supervisor-level users can alter security tallies. Any
>thoughts?


I'm probably way out of date here. (Only having the SR1BBB can do that to ya)
but I thought that's what happened when you entered the CPU.. once there the
whole system (including security stuff) is yours to monkey with.

However, I wouldn't doubt this has undergone massive changes with the VR books
and all..

-Karl




--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
En ik zal het heen twee keer zehhen.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 22
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:18:34 EDT
In a message dated 5/21/98 3:48:42 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.NL writes:

> Partly related to this, I thought about security tallies about a week ago,
> and it suddenly dawned on me that it should be possible to erase or
> inflate them... After all, it's just data kept on a computer somewhere, so
> the decker should be able to in- or decrease the counter. However, looking
> through VR 2.0 I couldn't find a system operation that allows this...

Dump Log action reduces things, but it takes time. I know we've got a
program/form that reduces a given security tally, but the program is Net
Success based and the decker has to have an idea how intensive the Tally is
currently (such as after performing an Analyze Host).

> The way to go about this would, I guess, be to do a Locate File to find
> the file (or memory address) containing the security tallies, and then an
> Edit File operation to change them. If you do a Validate Passcode or
> Invalidate Passcode before this, you should be able to erase your security
> tally and appear a completely legitimate user, or do the opposite for
> security deckers.

That would work as well, now that I think of it. That last part for Security
Deckers would be nice once in a while too. The action times, at least IMO,
would take longer however, as the program is trying to perform a Search of all
given databases.

> However, I think there'd be some protection built into the system, for
> example that only supervisor-level users can alter security tallies. Any
> thoughts?

Agree here, you'd probably have larger than normal target numbers for
performing such, and it would NOT be possible at without the Masking Attribute
(so no using a legit deck/terminal for this stunt).

-K
Message no. 23
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:56:07 -0600
Wafflemeisters wrote:
/
[snip: VR2 and system security system tally]
/
/ So, supposedly, the system traks TOTAL security tally, and also the
/ amount genrated by each "illegal" user? (disignated HOW, as opposed to
/ those using "validate passcode", or those "invalidated" by an
intruding
/ decker?)
/ HMM, so an easy way for a corp decker to make things tough for an
/ intruder would be to perform some illegal opps, uppin the tally. A
/ system crash would piss off the corp, but so would stolen data... And
/ "invalidating" somebody would be a potential assasination technique...

Or, set the tally settings low. IIRC Red systems have pretty low
tallies, where as Green systems have high tally levels.

/ I'm pretty damn sure I found a passage in VR2 that confirms that
/ Tallies are NOT global, but I loaned out my anotated copy and only have
/ the "collectors edition" here. I can't find anything that says they ARE
/ global, or refers to deckerS, plural, when referencing security
/ tallies. If tallies are global, frames would be a LOT less useful,
/ generally having dreck for detection factors...

I got the impression that system tallies are global. Which makes sense,
IMHO, given the data paranoia of SR 205x.

In SR information is a very real comodity. The Crash of 29 wiped out a
lot of data (let's not get into how that happened, please :). After
the Virus was defeated everyone horded the data they had left and
locked it behind the tightest security they could.

As time passed the security was lifted on less sensitive data (library
catalogs, encyclopias, etc) but everyone kept a tight lid on sensitive
data.

But, the Crash of 29 created an environment that fostered the hording
and protection of data. Before the crash just about anyone could check
out patents, designs, and basic knowledge. After the crash even basic
information was very restricted.

If, after the Crash, you had a viable copy of basic chemical process,
then it was very probable that you had the *only* copy, due to the
effectiveness of the Virus. As a corp you would probably keep that
process close to your chest and not let anyone near it. It gives you a
monopoly on the process. And it gives you a major head start on doing
research on more advanced chemical processes.

As time passes the corps tend to specialize, depending on what data
they started out with after the crash. Sure, geniuses would allow some
corps without that data to rebuild their knowledge base, and create
competition. But most of the corps have to steal it, or die, or find a
nitch that no one is exploiting (the knowledge was completely wiped
out) and start from scratch (relatively speaking).

Given that kind of environment I, as a corporation, would have no
problem paying for lost time due to system shut downs resulting from
attempted intrusions into my data to protect my monopoly.

That kinda rambled, but I think I got my point across :)

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 24
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:04:57 -0500
On Wed, 20 May 1998 20:14:52 EDT DisnyShamn <DisnyShamn@***.COM> writes:
>> I'm pretty damn sure I found a passage in VR2 that confirms
that
>> Tallies are NOT global, but I loaned out my anotated copy and only
have
>> the "collectors edition" here. I can't find anything that says they
ARE
>> global, or refers to deckerS, plural, when referencing security
>> tallies. If tallies are global, frames would be a LOT less useful,
>> generally having dreck for detection factors...

VR 2.0 makes constant reference to the Decker's Security Tally ...either
that's poor wording or the Sec Tally is indivual :)

>I seem to recall a reference in VR2 to systems remaining "alert" for
awhile
>after a decker has logged off. This would necessitate some sort of
globalness
>of security tally. I'd suggest a compromise;

I believe you are referring to the material under Host Reset on pg 65.

>Let's look at what happens when a security tally is raised; the system
becomes
>increasingly "aware" of an intruder; alarms are going off. Now, this
SHOULD,
>if the system had an at-all-logical designer, kick in some general
diagnostics
>and whatnot. But the more you do, the easier it will be to locate you,
in
>particular. I can think of a few ways to do this; one requires some
>bookkeeping, another monkeys with the rules in VR2 a bit and makes any
long
>duration very nasty, and the last makes team-decking a bt too safe.
>
>1. Security tally IS global, but a given user/decker is tracked ONLY
from the
>point at which he entered the system. That is, if Decker Bob had a tally
of 12
>when Decker Cindy-Lu-Hoo comes in, the can both raise the tally, but for
her
>it starts at 0.
>Example: if he raises it another 2 and she blunders it up by 3, it's
raised a
>total of 5 for both, raising him to 17, but her to only 5.

I like this but dunno ... wouldn't Cindy actually draw attention away
from Bob?

<SNIP other options :)>

How about Security Tallies are individual but alerts are Global?

>- Disney Shaman

What are your Bonus dice ... or do I wanna know? ;)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum)

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Message no. 25
From: DisnyShamn <DisnyShamn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:14:09 EDT
> >- Disney Shaman
>
> What are your Bonus dice ... or do I wanna know? ;)

+4 dice to summon Spirits of Whimsy.

Disney Shaman
Message no. 26
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:42:26 -0400
At 10:04 AM 5/21/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 20 May 1998 20:14:52 EDT DisnyShamn <DisnyShamn@***.COM> writes:

<lots of stuff snipped>

>VR 2.0 makes constant reference to the Decker's Security Tally ...either
>that's poor wording or the Sec Tally is indivual :)
>
><SNIP other options :)>
>
>How about Security Tallies are individual but alerts are Global?
>

Okay, I work as PC support at my place, but I do some stuff with the
network admins. On our Novell server we have access rights that only the
superuser can change, limiting people on how they get in, etc. There is
also something like a security tally.

When a user tries to login to the system, they get prompted for their
username and pw. If they put in the wrong pw, it prompts them again. You
get 3 tries, then it locks up. What happens in the background is this.

You type in the pw 1st, and get it wrong. If you get it right the second
time, you get in and do your stuff. You do get a message saying that you
got it wrong, that you have to clear. The network program marks that you
got your password wrong once in the security file, which can be accessed by
the superuser.

You get it wrong twice, smae as the first.

Third time, you're in trouble. The login won't work until you sever your
connection, ie. reboot the system. Even then, you cannot use that account
to log in. The security program (a subroutine of the network program)
temporarily marks that account with NO access rights and sends a page to
the netadmin. He has to log onto a terminal somewhere as a superuser, go
into the security program, and reset the guy's account.

In now way does my screwup with my password affect my neighbor's ability or
rights to login.

Trying to compare it to Real Life (a mistake I know) it seems that a
Security Tally is local to the user, and keeps track of how much they are
screwing up before their rights are changed. If they get a 1/3 tally, they
lose the right NOT to be hassled by some IC that sniffs around more
carefully to find out who they are. If they get a full tally, they lose the
right to NOT be targeted by that nasty Black IC.

The GLobal Alerts are commands that change the access rights of Everyone,
so that they all lose the right to not be hassled by sniffers. If you're
really paranoid you might make it so that anybody who got any tally added
up to up the Alert Status, but on a major system that might have hundreds
to thousands of users, it would quickly shut down.

Sommers
Message no. 27
From: DisnyShamn <DisnyShamn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:10:51 EDT
From Sommers, the following:

> Third time, you're in trouble. The login won't work until you sever your
> connection, ie. reboot the system. Even then, you cannot use that account
> to log in. The security program (a subroutine of the network program)
> temporarily marks that account with NO access rights and sends a page to
> the netadmin. He has to log onto a terminal somewhere as a superuser, go
> into the security program, and reset the guy's account.
>
> In now way does my screwup with my password affect my neighbor's ability or
> rights to login.

Where the analogy breaks down is, the SR decker is presumably not using the
same "account" when he logs in each time. How's the system to know that Decker
Bob, coming in for a second try, is any different from legit user Steve,
coming in to check his e-mail?

Or, for a more symmetrical example, that Decker Bob, coming in for try #2, is
any different from Decker Cindy, coming in for the first time that day?

See, the problem with an individual tally is that you can just sign off and
then back on again; also, you can "tag-team" a datarun and take turns doing
things, "spreading out" the tally. (Of course, it stands to reason that you
SHOULD be able to benefit from having buds)

- Disney Shaman
Message no. 28
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:55:26 -0500
>We're working on an all aquatic campaign too. All the PC's will be
Water
>Elemental Adepts, Aquatic Shamans, or amphibious were-critters.
>Right now I'm leaning toward making the team part of Aqua Arcana from
CFS,
>but I might go the easy route and let them be Butt-Pirates of the
>Carribbean! ;-)
><For some reason they ALL wanna kill Gingerbread Man?!?>
>


After going through Cyber Pirates, I had delusions of a Waterworld type
campaign running through my head...

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 29
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns -Reply
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:12:30 -0500
<Snip real world example from Sommers>

>In no way does my screwup with my password affect my neighbor's
>ability or rights to login.

What if your computer's security included pattern recognition software
that noticed what might be someone using a password cracker: it would
issue an alert, wouldn't it? What if it detected system logs getting
messed with to remove traces of a user's actions? These are things
that are represented by a security tally. Nowadays, these get logged,
and on a big computer there is the equivalent of an alert, but we don't
have ICE in 1998, so there isn't much point in most of this stuff--yet. If
we had expert systems that we pretty good at distinguishing valid from
invalid patterns of use (Probe ICE) a lot of sysadmins would write
scripts that started them running if a lot of bad login attempts occured in
a short period of time, or if a user started playing with file permisions on
files he shouldn't care about.

Double-Domed Mike
--I'm out of ideas for sigs...
Message no. 30
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:17:28 -0400
At 01:10 PM 5/21/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>From Sommers, the following:
>
>> Third time, you're in trouble. The login won't work until you sever your
>> connection, ie. reboot the system. Even then, you cannot use that account
>> to log in. The security program (a subroutine of the network program)
>> temporarily marks that account with NO access rights and sends a page to
>> the netadmin. He has to log onto a terminal somewhere as a superuser, go
>> into the security program, and reset the guy's account.
>>
>> In now way does my screwup with my password affect my neighbor's
ability or
>> rights to login.
>
>Where the analogy breaks down is, the SR decker is presumably not using the
>same "account" when he logs in each time. How's the system to know that
Decker
>Bob, coming in for a second try, is any different from legit user Steve,
>coming in to check his e-mail?

No, he almost definitely doesn't use the same account unless he has a user
name that he knows the password for. I imagine what happens is his masking
(or maybe sleaze) has a program that generates a user/password combo that
fools the system into thinking that an authorized user (or systems check,
etc) is logging on. But those programs would have certain flaws in them,
like using similar types of login names. The higher the program, the more
random those files are that are used. The better the security, the closer
it checks for those kind of anomolies.

>Or, for a more symmetrical example, that Decker Bob, coming in for try #2, is
>any different from Decker Cindy, coming in for the first time that day?
>
>See, the problem with an individual tally is that you can just sign off and
>then back on again; also, you can "tag-team" a datarun and take turns doing
>things, "spreading out" the tally. (Of course, it stands to reason that you
>SHOULD be able to benefit from having buds)
>
>- Disney Shaman

The other thing that this software can track is where the data is coming
from. For us, its the IP number of the system that they're logging into.
For SR, the decker has to get in from SOMEWHERE, whether its the phone in
his apartment, a terminal inside the archology, or a soda machine in the
basement. That entry point has to have an address (an IP for us) that
corresponds to where the data is coming in. You can track that data in the
security program, seeing that in 20 seconds 10 different users put in the
wrong password. And its hard to fake that IP number (for lack of a better
term) because then the computer wouldn't know where the data is coming
from. Likely result is loss of data and crash of program.

That also explains why its easier to deck from a point inside the physical
building. The security system is going to check data and users inside the
system less than outside lines (and its not going to check to soda machine
very often)!

So if 2 deckers come in from 2 diff points, there's going to be a tally for
each of them. If they both went in at the same point, they're tally's
would be added together. But global alerts would not be set off from a few
deckers unless they did some major, loud damage.

Sommers
Message no. 31
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:05:42 -0500
> > Re: Weird Campaigns
(DisnyShamn , Wed 19:14)

> I seem to recall a reference in VR2 to systems remaining "alert" for awhile
> after a decker has logged off. This would necessitate some sort of globalness
> of security tally. I'd suggest a compromise;
>

Yes, the "passive" and "active" allerts, whichraise sunbsystem
ratings
and such, DO affect all users / intruders.That will tend to raise thier
tally, as theywon't be acomplishing thierjob so easily.
The "Host reset" example also gives an example ofonedecker jacking up a
tallly, and logging of, then another logging in, and the IC still being
active, but as that was theonly exampleof one deckers tally dirrectly
affecting anothers, I assumed it was an editing brain fart.

> Let's look at what happens when a security tally is raised; the system becomes
> increasingly "aware" of an intruder; alarms are going off. Now, this
SHOULD,
> if the system had an at-all-logical designer, kick in some general diagnostics
> and whatnot.

Hence the "Passive" and "active" alerts.

>But the more you do, the easier it will be to locate you, in
> particular. I can think of a few ways to do this; one requires some
> bookkeeping, another monkeys with the rules in VR2 a bit and makes any long
> duration very nasty, and the last makes team-decking a bt too safe.
>

Long duration decking is already VERY nasty. In case youhad not
noticed,there is NO way to reduce your security tally, short of logging
off for a while. Since the tally is just of ANY succeses VS your
deception, having a lot of skill doesn't prevent it, it just lets you
get the job done beforemondo IC apears. Once theIC does apear, you'll
be wasting more time on evasion, driving up the tally by killing it,
orreducing your deception by supressing it. All of those will hamper
your work.

> 1. Security tally IS global, but a given user/decker is tracked ONLY from the
> point at which he entered the system. That is, if Decker Bob had a tally of 12
> when Decker Cindy-Lu-Hoo comes in, the can both raise the tally, but for her
> it starts at 0.
> Example: if he raises it another 2 and she blunders it up by 3, it's raised a
> total of 5 for both, raising him to 17, but her to only 5.
>

That would make SOME sense. It at least removes the posibility that
you log in and get nuked. "GM; Oh, well some other deckerwas in
system."

> 2. The Sec Tally somehow LOWERS the decker's Detection rating. Every 3 points
> or something? Thus, the longer a decker is in the system, the more obviously
> he/she is the target, but it'd still be a danger to say security deckers doing
> illegal stuff (it might notice them, it's just mroe likely to notice the
> other).
>

Bad idea- see above comments- decking is hard enough already. The
Passive and active allerts already have a similar effect, as does the
very frequently used Probe IC.

> 3. Tally is figured individually, only until two people even out; then it's
> cumulative.
> Example: Decker Bob is at 12 again when Decker Cindy arrives. She accumulates
> a tally normally, but doesn't trigger anything until she hits 12 (unless Bob
> gains some; anyway, until she's even with Bob); he has "blazed a datatrail"
> fro her, and she can avoid sprung IC. Once they're even, they add to one
> another's tally.
>

That will make Cindy's job pretty easy, if Bob can avoid getting
hammered while pulling null ops or something. If Bob had killed the
IC, sure, I could see it won't bother her.

> 4. (Probably simplest) Sec tallies are partially global; that is, most of it
> is individual, each decker gaining a seperate tally as "normal", but some
> pervcentage (say, every 5th level) adds to a "general tally", increasing
> EVERYONE'S tally (though this will only trigger IC on the person(s) actually
> performing the action).
>

Again, the various alert levels have a similar effect.

I can see various "tally sharing" schemes being valid (adressinganybody
not displaying all passcodes), but A) Decking teams areuncommon, so rare
as to notbe considered a security threat & B) Things are already quite
hard for the lone decker (if thier deception factor is less than 10 or
so & C) if you are so sure somebody is using the wrong passcodes, just
DUMP them- why mess around even tracking a tally if somebody can be
distinguished as "bad" so easily (which tracking cumulative tally for
all "intruders", but not applying it to users, implies).

-Mongoose X
Message no. 32
From: DisnyShamn <DisnyShamn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:26:35 EDT
From Sommers:

> The other thing that this software can track is where the data is coming
> from. For us, its the IP number of the system that they're logging into.
> For SR, the decker has to get in from SOMEWHERE, whether its the phone in
> his apartment, a terminal inside the archology, or a soda machine in the
> basement. That entry point has to have an address (an IP for us) that
> corresponds to where the data is coming in. You can track that data in the
> security program, seeing that in 20 seconds 10 different users put in the
> wrong password. And its hard to fake that IP number (for lack of a better
> term) because then the computer wouldn't know where the data is coming
> from. Likely result is loss of data and crash of program.

But isn't that what trace IC is for?

- Disney Shaman
Message no. 33
From: Wyrmy <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Weird Campaigns
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 23:55:45 -0500
<Snip everythting K said>

I have started a campaighn along the lines of .....The Barsoom project.
This my one favorite book that is non-shadowrun. The runners are very
good friends,m and deside to take a vacation to this new fantasy
Amusement park. There they sighn up for the Fimbulwinter Fat ripper
special(a game for substance abusers and overweight people[theyre here
just because they wanted an intense workout]). They came for
entertainment, but before it's over, they will have saved the world(in
the Fimbulwinter game) and will have caught a murderer(Out of game), and
put a evil wealthy Middle-eastern oil merchant in a psychiactric
ward.There is just one snag(for the players),The park was intentionaly
built over a Fovea(because they dont want real magic in this place).All
visitors are warned about this fact,and magicaly active are warned not
to use their powers or go astral. But luckily, thye only have a mage on
the team, and he has agreed not to use his magic.The name of the place
is, (surprise surprise!;)) Dream Park!
--
-W
============================
If you are a dreamer come in,
If you are a dreeamer, a wisher,
A liar, a magic jelly bean buyer,
Come In!
-What should be the motto of all internet users.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Weird Campaigns, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!