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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Mon Feb 4 02:20:01 2002
Christian Casavant writes:

> Futher, there is (in my opinion) a fundamental problem with the way the
> weapons are laid out. To cite one example, the Ares Predator III (a
> heavy pistol), with a 9M damage code has a concealability of 4. The
> HK227-S, damage code 10S with burst has a concealability of 5! It's not
> even the compact version which has the SAME concealability!!! (Let's be
> realistic a silenced SMG can NOT be smaller than a heavy pistol.)

Huhn? What's wrong with the situation that you describe? If you ask me, the
only thing wrong is that the Ares Predator does 9M with a single shot, while
the HK-227S does 7M with a single shot, and in all likelihood, the SMG
probably uses pistol sized ammo...

If, for instance, the Ares Predator happened to be Burst Fire (which,
apparently, since it's a Semi-Automatic pistol isn't all that huge a
modification), it'd do 12S with a burst. The HK-227S has the advantage of
being a weapon with a large rate of fire. Thus, it has the _potential_ to do
much more damage than the SA Ares Predator. However, you're neglecting the
factor of _recoil_, which will mean that the SMG has less chance of doing
this huge damage than you make out.

As for weapon sizes, there's nothing (either in real life or in the SR
rules) that says pistols need to be smaller than SMGs. Sure, one would
_expect_ than generally a pistol would be smaller than an SMG, but this is
not always going to be the case. Building a smaller weapon has advantages
and disadvantages, for both pistols and SMGs. The design and manufacturing of
a larger weapon is simpler, as there are less constraints on positioning of
components, selection of strong enough materials, and so forth. I think that
you'll find the Ares Predator is a pretty budget pistol, while the HK-227S
is a rather expensive SMG. Maybe this is because the Ares Predator is
designed using crap, cheap, bulky materials, and is slapped together with
little concern for tolerance and component positioning because it is
designed BIG. The HK-227S might be just the opposite, using advanced
composite materials for lightness and size, meticulously sized, designed,
and machined components, and what have you.

On the flip side, a larger weapon is a more stable firing device, as it
inherently compensates for some of its own recoil. Although this isn't
exactly represented in SR. So making a BIG pistol means that it'll fire
straighter on the second shot. While making a small SMG means that it'll
wander all over the joint when used in burst fire mode.

> (Aside, I think there's a mistake in the rules calculating the burst
> damamge. A 9M weapon firing 3 round burst should IMHO do 11S since the
> first bullet would be 9M, second 10M, third 11S, etc...)

Technically, the burst fire modifiers are an _approximation_. If you want
realism, then resolve each bullet in turn (like 1st Ed ;-)). But expect to
spend a lot of time doing it :-). The +3 Power +1 Damage Category isn't
directly because you fire _3_ rounds, but because 3 x 9M = 12S on many
occasions. Of course, there are situations where characters would much
rather take one or the other of 12S or 3 x 9M (such as if they had huge
amounts of armour, or didn't have any armour at all), but on the whole in SR
(where characters have a bit of armour), it usually works out OK. Of course,
if it isn't working out OK in your games, then it might warrant changing.

> Essentially my difficulty is reconciling the fact that weapons are so
> underpowered in the game that LSSS resort to using the Ruger 12S super
> burst bad boy.

I think it's more the case of body armour being relatively cheap and
available in SR, and refined to the point that it is regularly incorporated
into normal clothing without either being ridiculously uncomfortable or
weighing the wearer down. If you're not wearing armour, 6M will kill you
just as dead as 12M, because the odds of you rolling _any_ successes are
slim to nothing both ways. However, throw in armour clothing (3/0), and the
situation changes significantly. The 6M becomes 3M, which is very
survivable, while the 12M becomes 9M, which will still blow you away.

This is one of the reasons that SWAT teams and the like today often use long
arms such as rifles when engaging dangerous opponents, even if they are
operating in confined spaces such as indoors. A rifle round penetrates
significantly better than a pistol round.

Of course, in SR, you'd be nuts to pack an assault rifle over a burst fire
heavy pistol unless you were operating at long ranges, but that's another
problem altogether... :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Mon Feb 4 07:20:02 2002
As always, any extrapolations are made with the knowledge that 2060
technology is based on 2002 technology.

>>Futher, there is (in my opinion) a fundamental problem with the way the
>>weapons are laid out. To cite one example, the Ares Predator III (a
>>heavy pistol), with a 9M damage code has a concealability of 4. The
>>HK227-S, damage code 10S with burst has a concealability of 5! It's not
>>even the compact version which has the SAME concealability!!! (Let's be
>>realistic a silenced SMG can NOT be smaller than a heavy pistol.)
>>
>
> Huhn? What's wrong with the situation that you describe? If you ask me, the
> only thing wrong is that the Ares Predator does 9M with a single shot, while
> the HK-227S does 7M with a single shot, and in all likelihood, the SMG
> probably uses pistol sized ammo...


HK227S, high end or not, is a silenced submachine gun. This implies
that it has a silencer on it, making it inherently *less* concealable
(ie. -2). Although, if you're not happy talking about apples and
oranges, let's compare like fruits.

HK227 v. HK 227S: Essentially the same weapon, however the S variant
substitutes the silencer to replace the Gas Vent II. The HK 227
includes a retractable stock, integral laser sight, and gas vent II and
has a conceability of 4. Remove the Gas vent II and the weapon now has
a conceability of 5. Add silencer, ie. -2 concealability and you're
left with a SMG with a concealability of 3. However, the book lists it
as being 5. (I'ld would be willing to agree that the entire silencer
(similiar to today's MP5SD) doesn't stick out, making it a -1 silencer
instead of -2, but we're still looking at large gun.)


With respect to the argument you made about materials and size, SMGs
fire Heavy Pistol rounds. Machine pistols seem to fire light pistol
rounds (although the Beretta 93R in modern day terms, a machine pistol,
fires a Heavy Pistol Round, ie. 9mm) However it may be possible to say
that the heavy round of yesterday is the light round of today
(although I don't really believe that. A .40 S&W will hurt in 60 years
just as much as it does now!), and that the new heavy pistol round is
something very heavy like a 12MM, or a .50ACP, which are made so big
because armour will stop anything smaller. So, my take on your
statement about new materials is that they are advanced sufficiently to
contain larger and more explosive rounds within the same sized frames.

Since I believe that SMGs are chambered for heavy weapon rounds, I don't
think they would (or really could) be the same size as a heavy weapon.
Even the smallest SMG's I can think of in today's terms ,the HK MP5K or
the Ingram/MAC-1x series are both large weapons. The MP5 being about 12
inches long and the Mac is 10.5inches.




> I think it's more the case of body armour being relatively cheap and
> available in SR, and refined to the point that it is regularly incorporated
> into normal clothing without either being ridiculously uncomfortable or
> weighing the wearer down. If you're not wearing armour, 6M will kill you
> just as dead as 12M...


No, 6M and 12M will both give you moderate wounds...6D and 12D will both
kill you! But I know what you're trying to say.

Actually, I think that's an important statement, but one I'll leave for
another post.

> Of course, in SR, you'd be nuts to pack an assault rifle over a burst fire
> heavy pistol unless you were operating at long ranges, but that's another
> problem altogether... :-)

No, but you'ld be nuts to pack a heavy pistol instead of an SMG.
COnsidering the rules favour them so much.

> Concealability is not the same as size, IMHO, and if you keep that in mind as a
> GM, you'll go a long way. The HK's higher Concealability can be explained in that
> it's flatter, more streamlined, etc. than the Predator which makes it easier to
> hide -- provided you have something you can hide it under. I wouldn't allow
> anyone to hide an HK-227 under a T-shirt, for example, but I would let them stick
> a Predator in their belt and put that same T-shirt over it to hide it.


Gurth, I generally do keep this in mind, and let the players get away
with some stuff, but size *has* to, in my mind, be a general indication
of concealability. Whether the HK is streamlined or not, if the magazine
is in the weapon (which from as far as I can see from the rules, they
consider that it is) there's no way you could hide that SMG with 30-40
round clip underneath your secure long coat!

I can't see the post with your alternate damage rules. Could you post it to me?
christian@********.org


Gotta go. Thanks for the chat.


Xian.
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Mon Feb 4 09:10:01 2002
Christian Casavant writes:

> HK227S, high end or not, is a silenced submachine gun. This implies
> that it has a silencer on it, making it inherently *less* concealable
> (ie. -2). Although, if you're not happy talking about apples and
> oranges, let's compare like fruits.
>
> <Snip calculation of Concealability of 3 or 4 for HK-227S>

Looking at the general range of Concealabilities for HPs, it appears that
they have a typical Concealability of 5 or 6, with a bunch of 4's and a 7.
SMGs have 4 or 5, with a 3. In general, it would seem that by and large the
Concealabilities match up with the expected size of the weapons, with a
couple of exceptions, which have pretty decent reasons, I feel. However, I
do see your point that some weapons, such as the HK-227S, while they have a
typical Concealability for their type, have an inordinate number of
components crammed into them, and _still_ have a good Concealability.

I suppose that it might be fair to modify the Concealability of such SMGs,
if you feel that they are unreasonable or they are getting out of hand in
your game.

> With respect to the argument you made about materials and size, SMGs
> fire Heavy Pistol rounds. Machine pistols seem to fire light pistol
> rounds (although the Beretta 93R in modern day terms, a machine pistol,
> fires a Heavy Pistol Round, ie. 9mm) However it may be possible to say
> that the heavy round of yesterday is the light round of today
> (although I don't really believe that. A .40 S&W will hurt in 60 years
> just as much as it does now!), and that the new heavy pistol round is
> something very heavy like a 12MM, or a .50ACP, which are made so big
> because armour will stop anything smaller. So, my take on your
> statement about new materials is that they are advanced sufficiently to
> contain larger and more explosive rounds within the same sized frames.

This certainly makes sense. It would appear that SR HPs fire larger rounds
than SR SMGs. Perhaps, as you speculate, SR SMGs fire "2002" HP rounds, and
SR HPs fire much bigger rounds. This, too, would make a SR HP a larger
weapon (those .50ACP rounds aren't exactly small ;-)). Although, as you
point out, with advances in materials engineering, this could be crammed
into a typically sized 2002 HP frame. But, SR SMGs must use a smaller round
(their damage is a measly 6M!), which means that they likely use whatever
they use today. And the same advances in materials engineering that allow a
fully featured/magazined .50ACP HP to be the same size as a 2002 HP would
allow a 2060 SMG to be noticeably smaller than one today. Thus a SR SMG
could quite easily have a comparable Concealability to a SR HP - the SMG has
shrunk, but the HP hasn't.

> Since I believe that SMGs are chambered for heavy weapon rounds, I don't
> think they would (or really could) be the same size as a heavy weapon.
^^^^^^
Heavy Pistol? I assume this is what you meant.

> Even the smallest SMG's I can think of in today's terms ,the HK MP5K or
> the Ingram/MAC-1x series are both large weapons. The MP5 being about 12
> inches long and the Mac is 10.5inches.

So what are typical HP sizes today, then, for comparison? How about BIG HPs
today? How large do they get?

> No, 6M and 12M will both give you moderate wounds...6D and 12D will both
> kill you! But I know what you're trying to say.

Er, yeah ;-).

> No, but you'ld be nuts to pack a heavy pistol instead of an SMG.
> COnsidering the rules favour them so much.

<boggle!> You said what? Are you _serious_?! I have never, in my entire time
as a SR GM (which is every week of the year, for the last dozen years or so)
seen a player take an SMG over a HP unless the reason was a roleplaying one.
SMGs suck! A HP starts at 9M, and a BF one goes to 12S. HPs are more
concealable, and can quite likely be passed off as legal firearms. They can
be crammed into Concealable and Quickdraw Holsters, which SMGs cannot. With
the prevalence of body armour in SR, the 2 additional Power that a HP has
over an SMG make a significant difference. Shoot somebody with Armour
Clothing (3/0) with a HP and they need 6's to resist. They'll resist a 6M
SMG round at 3's. Even though burst firing the SMG will make this 6's, you
have to tote around a highly illegal automatic weapon, which is probably less
concealable (unless you pack a Predator for comparison ;-)), and which will
have a much lower effective ammunition capacity. In other words, you'd be
nuts!

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Mon Feb 4 10:45:01 2002
Damion

> <boggle!> You said what? Are you _serious_?! I have never, in my entire time
> as a SR GM (which is every week of the year, for the last dozen years or so)
> seen a player take an SMG over a HP unless the reason was a roleplaying one.
> SMGs suck! A HP starts at 9M, and a BF one goes to 12S. HPs are more
> concealable, and can quite likely be passed off as legal firearms. They can
> be crammed into Concealable and Quickdraw Holsters, which SMGs cannot. With
> the prevalence of body armour in SR, the 2 additional Power that a HP has
> over an SMG make a significant difference. Shoot somebody with Armour
> Clothing (3/0) with a HP and they need 6's to resist. They'll resist a 6M
> SMG round at 3's. Even though burst firing the SMG will make this 6's, you
> have to tote around a highly illegal automatic weapon, which is probably less
> concealable (unless you pack a Predator for comparison ;-)), and which will
> have a much lower effective ammunition capacity. In other words, you'd be
> nuts!


SMGs sucks only in Shadowrun. In real life, they're highly effective,
and despite your love for Burst Fire heavy pistols, you don't see alot
of them in real life, bccause BF HPs are really the sucky weapons. (And
don't you dare cite the Ruger Cheathawk, the LSSS weapon. It's the
biggest cheese I've ever seen)

A number of arms companies have manufactured them, but since they're so
inaccurate (as you mentioned in a previous email) nobody buys/uses them.
However, I'm willing to cede, I don't know a whole bunch about burst
fire heavy pistols, except the Beretta 93R, the HK VP70Z, and the
Mauser. If anyone can give me different examples of busrt fire pistols,
I would like to do research on them.

So, in RL, if you're going to use a HP, you use an HP. However, for
busrt capable weapons, armed response teams use sub machine guns, which
pack just as much punch as heavy pistols.

If you were a shadowrunner, and you were getting shot at, which would
you prefer to be hit by? A HP or a SMG burst? If you ask me, the
answer is HP. Why? Because the single round is easier to dodge and
easier to resist.

Anyway, Damion, the whole discussion got out of hand. The original
point was not whether SMGs were better than HPs. The original question
was why are the Called Shots Rules so weak. My counter reponse to the
avoidance of armour in a called shot, then called upon the weakness of
the dodging rules.

Since busrt is the best way to defeat the dodge, this became a
discussion as to why SMGs are better than HPs, especially considering
the extraordinarily high concealability of the KH227S. Really, they're
not, it's just a question of application.

Xian.
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Mon Feb 4 13:55:01 2002
According to Christian Casavant, on Mon, 04 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Gurth, I generally do keep this in mind, and let the players get away
> with some stuff, but size *has* to, in my mind, be a general indication
> of concealability.

I didn't say the two aren't related, but I am saying they're not simply
interchangeable, and that one is not necessarily linearly related to the other.

> Whether the HK is streamlined or not, if the magazine
> is in the weapon (which from as far as I can see from the rules, they
> consider that it is) there's no way you could hide that SMG with 30-40
> round clip underneath your secure long coat!

Actually, if you look at the pictures of these weapons in the SR1 rulebook, the
HK227 could never have a Concealability of 4 if an assault rifle like the AK-97
has a Conceal of 2. However, this looks to be a good example of drawing up
pictures and game stats completely independently of each other...

FWIW, I agree with many of your arguments, but sometimes you simply have to
switch to Trekkie mode to think up explanations for illogical decisions in the
game :)

> I can't see the post with your alternate damage rules. Could you post it
> to me? christian@********.org

On the way.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Mon Feb 4 13:55:03 2002
According to Christian Casavant, on Mon, 04 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> A number of arms companies have manufactured them, but since they're so
> inaccurate (as you mentioned in a previous email) nobody buys/uses them.

And they don't have much use IRL; besides the inaccuracy, the rounds pack
slightly less punch than those of an SMG and the magazines are smaller so you're
out of ammo sooner. All things put together you're usually better off with either
a normal pistol or an SMG, not something inbetween.

> However, I'm willing to cede, I don't know a whole bunch about burst
> fire heavy pistols, except the Beretta 93R, the HK VP70Z

Side note: that last one was once described on the Millennium's End list (IIRC)
as having a trigger like a staple gun...

> and the
> Mauser. If anyone can give me different examples of busrt fire pistols,
> I would like to do research on them.

The various models of the Skorpion come to mind, as does the Russian APS
(Stechkin), the Polish Wz63, and the Beretta M951. I think that's pretty much it,
though, as far as mainstream RL machine pistols are concerned.

> So, in RL, if you're going to use a HP, you use an HP. However, for
> busrt capable weapons, armed response teams use sub machine guns, which
> pack just as much punch as heavy pistols.
>
> If you were a shadowrunner, and you were getting shot at, which would
> you prefer to be hit by? A HP or a SMG burst? If you ask me, the
> answer is HP. Why? Because the single round is easier to dodge and
> easier to resist.

Something else to consider is if something makes sense when seen from the game
world, which need not be exactly the same point of view as a RL perspective, if
you understand what I mean.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mark M. Smith)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Mon Feb 4 16:00:01 2002
> > and the
> > Mauser. If anyone can give me different examples of busrt fire pistols,
> > I would like to do research on them.
>
>The various models of the Skorpion come to mind, as does the Russian APS
>(Stechkin), the Polish Wz63, and the Beretta M951. I think that's pretty
>much it,
>though, as far as mainstream RL machine pistols are concerned.

It's not at all mainstream but the Colt Scamp comes to mind. Used a custom
round (.22 SC), rather low power, and a 3-round burst limiter meant it
never really got accepted. Along a similiar line is the HK VP-70, using an
18 round clip of 9mm P it was a pretty decent large capacity pistol with an
extra feature. If you attached a stock to it it released an interrupter
switch and allowed fully automatic fire.

I find that as time goes on I spend less time going to the library and
looking through Jane's for my small arms info and more time lifting it from
the Twilight:2000 Infantry Weapons guide.

Belgand
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Mon Feb 4 16:10:01 2002
At 20:01 04.02.2002 +0100, Gurth wrote:

<snip>

> > However, I'm willing to cede, I don't know a whole bunch about burst
> > fire heavy pistols, except the Beretta 93R, the HK VP70Z
>
>Side note: that last one was once described on the Millennium's End list
>(IIRC)
>as having a trigger like a staple gun...
>
> > and the
> > Mauser. If anyone can give me different examples of busrt fire pistols,
> > I would like to do research on them.
>
>The various models of the Skorpion come to mind, as does the Russian APS
>(Stechkin), the Polish Wz63, and the Beretta M951. I think that's pretty
>much it,
>though, as far as mainstream RL machine pistols are concerned.

Did anyone mention the Glock 18 yet?


Arclight
--
Two rules for life:
1. Don't tell people everything you know.
2. ...
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Mon Feb 4 16:10:03 2002
> I didn't say the two aren't related, but I am saying they're not simply

> interchangeable, and that one is not necessarily linearly related to the other.


Fair enough. However, since it is stuck firmly in my head that SMGs use
Heavy Pistol ammunition, I can't see how a HP can ever be the same
size as an SMG that's all.


> Actually, if you look at the pictures of these weapons in the SR1 rulebook, the
> HK227 could never have a Concealability of 4 if an assault rifle like the AK-97
> has a Conceal of 2. However, this looks to be a good example of drawing up

> pictures and game stats completely independently of each other...


To be fair, I'm pretty certain that's not an SMG. I think it's a
mislabelled carbine. But yes, I think you're right. I also think there
was a bit of reverse engineering that happened during the creation of
the weapons table because they wanted them to fit into their combat rules.

Fair enough, I like them, really! However, every so once in a while I
feel that some things are just plain silly!

I don't seem to be the only one though. I started to read Damion's
comprehensive and through house rules and he seems critical of the game
where the rules are weak, and supportive where he thinks the rules are
good. (Mind you since they're house rules, it's more of A than B, but
still)

The important thing is you have a lot of people questioing the rationale
and helping to promote a fuller more playable version of the game.

> FWIW, I agree with many of your arguments, but sometimes you simply have to
> switch to Trekkie mode to think up explanations for illogical decisions in the
> game :)


Trekkie mode??? Yech! Thanks for the support, though!

Alright, later guys. Its time to read my wife another chapter of Harry
Potter!

G'night.

Xian
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Mon Feb 4 17:25:00 2002
In article <3C5EAE7C.8010102@********.org>, Christian Casavant
<christian@********.org> writes
>A number of arms companies have manufactured them, but since they're so
>inaccurate (as you mentioned in a previous email) nobody buys/uses
>them. However, I'm willing to cede, I don't know a whole bunch about
>burst fire heavy pistols, except the Beretta 93R, the HK VP70Z, and the
>Mauser. If anyone can give me different examples of busrt fire
>pistols, I would like to do research on them.

VP70 - only burst-fire when attached to a shoulder stock. Discontinued
in the 1980s.

Glock 18 - available but not widely used. Needs a *lot* of skill to hit
anything with. Still available, last I heard, but little used.

Stechkin: Soviet selective-fire pistol, usually issued with a
stock/holster, withdrawn because even in 9mm x 18 hardly anyone hit a
damn thing with it.

All sorts of copies of the Mauser C96, with selective fire and
twenty-round magazines. Popular with Chinese warlords but not effective
combat arms. Died a death in the 1930s.

Various attempts to take the disconnector out of existing pistols so
they'll fire full-auto, with results ranging from poor to dreadful.
(Including my own experience with a .38 Super racegun that broke its
disconnector and started firing full-auto... uncontrollably, despite a
three-baffle compensator)


By the time you make a pistol controllable enough to be usable in
full-auto or burst fire, it's the size and weight of a SMG with a
folding stock. In fact, it *is* a SMG.

But that's real life.
--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Mon Feb 4 17:35:04 2002
In article <20020204182255.A12718@***.edu.au>, Damion Milliken
<dam01@***.edu.au> writes
>As for weapon sizes, there's nothing (either in real life or in the SR
>rules) that says pistols need to be smaller than SMGs.

Damion, I've played about with a couple of the biggest pistols going
(the H&K Mark 23 SOCOM 'Robocop Gun', a couple of Desert Eagles, a .454
Casull). I've also had my hands on the H&K MP-5 in standard, silenced
and compact versions, with fixed, folding and no stocks, a MAC-10, three
FN P90s, a Skorpion and an Uzi pistol. (To name but a few. Trade shows
are fun.)


The very largest pistol is about the same size as the very smallest SMG.
The MP-5K is significantly larger and harder to hide than even a Desert
Eagle, one of the least handy pistols around (the Desert Eagle is 260mm
long, the MP-5K is 325mm). The shortest of the silenced MP-5SDs is 550mm
long and it's got _no_ stock, not even a telescoping one.

It's especially bizarre given that pistols apparently fire more potent
rounds. Why is that, given that a shoulder stock and two-handed grip and
the longer barrel will let you put *much* more powerful rounds through a
SMG or assault rifle than a pistol? If SR heavy pistols fire a 2060s
version of .44 Magnum, where's the SMG to fire this round? If it's
manageable from a pistol, it's easily shot from a SMG.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 06:05:02 2002
Christian Casavant writes:

> SMGs sucks only in Shadowrun. In real life, they're highly effective,
> and despite your love for Burst Fire heavy pistols, you don't see alot
> of them in real life, bccause BF HPs are really the sucky weapons. (And
> don't you dare cite the Ruger Cheathawk, the LSSS weapon. It's the
> biggest cheese I've ever seen)

Oh yes, I completely agree with you. That was why I was suprised that your
_SR_ players (rather than your buddys in RL ;-)) chose SMGs over HPs. In SR,
BF HPs are one of the best available weapons. In RL, so I am told by many
folks, this isn't exactly the situation...

> If you were a shadowrunner, and you were getting shot at, which would
> you prefer to be hit by? A HP or a SMG burst? If you ask me, the
> answer is HP. Why? Because the single round is easier to dodge and
> easier to resist.

9M (single) vs 10S (burst)? Hmm, yeah, this is true. But a burst from a HP
(12S) is worse than a burst from an SMG (in SR), because the base damage is
higher. This may not be exactly true in RL, of course ;-).

> Anyway, Damion, the whole discussion got out of hand. The original
> point was not whether SMGs were better than HPs. The original question
> was why are the Called Shots Rules so weak. My counter reponse to the
> avoidance of armour in a called shot, then called upon the weakness of
> the dodging rules.

In some ways, I can see how it would be easier to dodge a Called Shot than
an unCalled Shot, though. Dodging in SR is about not being where the firer
is aiming (not about ducking out of the way of the bullet a la Matrix style
;-)). When a firer is more obviously aiming somewhere (ie, taking a Called
Shot), then you have more knowledge of where not to be. eg, if they are
Calling their Shot for your head, you only have to be able to get your head
out of the way. If they were just shooting for your center of mass, then
you'd have to move more of your body further to spoil their aim, ie to
dodge.

Also, if a firer is Calling a Shot at a specific body part, say the head,
then if they miss (perhaps due to you getting a couple of dodge successes),
then there is a good chance that they'll miss and not hit you at all.
Whereas if you achieved the same number of successes and they were just
shooting for your center of mass (ie, not Calling their Shot), then a small
deviation (such as a couple of dodge successes) might not be a miss, as they
may still peg you in the arm or graze your torso.

I think that being able to more easily dodge Called Shots is not so great a
problem.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 06:15:01 2002
Christian Casavant writes:

> Fair enough. However, since it is stuck firmly in my head that SMGs use
> Heavy Pistol ammunition, I can't see how a HP can ever be the same size as
> an SMG that's all.

<grin> I, too, had this quandry when I was busy making house rules about
weapon damages. Pretty much, the only way I could figure that SR SMGs had
the statistics (magazine capacities, Concealabilities, weights, etc) that
they do is if they fired the same sort of ammo as Light Pistols. I couldn't
reconcile them using the same grade of ammo as HPs.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 06:15:03 2002
Paul J. Adam writes:

> By the time you make a pistol controllable enough to be usable in
> full-auto or burst fire, it's the size and weight of a SMG with a folding
> stock. In fact, it *is* a SMG.

So the house rule that I know many people use about HPs having heavy weapon
recoil penalties is fair enough?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 07:25:01 2002
Damion,

> <grin> I, too, had this quandry when I was busy making house rules about
> weapon damages. Pretty much, the only way I could figure that SR SMGs had
> the statistics (magazine capacities, Concealabilities, weights, etc) that
> they do is if they fired the same sort of ammo as Light Pistols. I couldn't
> reconcile them using the same grade of ammo as HPs.


It seems as if we've looked at the problem from two different
directions. I started work last night on a new SR Weapons table which
will take into account the following assumptions:

- SMGs will fire HP ammunition.
- Different weapons chambered for the same ammunition will not do
different damage. Longer barrels will account for greater accuracy over
distance.
- Light pistol ammuntion will (most likely) do medium wounds, probably
at 6M. I've not decided yet. (NB. .380 rounds can weigh up to 90gr,
which is only slightly lighter than some 9mm rounds. Though muzzle
velocity is somewhat reduced.)
- Hold out pistols can be chambered for heavy pistol ammunition such as
the Ruger Super Warhawk and damage will reflect it.

What do you guys and gals think?

Xian.
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 07:45:01 2002
Christian Casavant writes:

> I started work last night on a new SR Weapons table which will take into
> account the following assumptions:
>
> - SMGs will fire HP ammunition.

Sounds fair enough, although you might want to tweak either them or HPs, as
something with more range than a HP and a bigger clip (no to mention
accessories ;-)) probably shouldn't have the same Concealability/weight/etc.

> - Different weapons chambered for the same ammunition will not do
> different damage. Longer barrels will account for greater accuracy over
> distance.

There is an argument that a longer barrel allows for more complete
combustion of propellant gases, and thus a greater muzzle velocity. A high
muzzle velocity will grant both greater range/accuracy as well as higher
penetrating capability. If you look over all the SR weapons, I think that
you're going to find some (eg hyper velocity weapons) that must fire small
calibre rounds, but which have very long barrels. It makes sense to give
them a small Power bonus, I feel.

> - Light pistol ammuntion will (most likely) do medium wounds, probably
> at 6M. I've not decided yet. (NB. .380 rounds can weigh up to 90gr,
> which is only slightly lighter than some 9mm rounds. Though muzzle
> velocity is somewhat reduced.)

I agree exactly.

> - Hold out pistols can be chambered for heavy pistol ammunition such as
> the Ruger Super Warhawk and damage will reflect it.

Ditto.

> What do you guys and gals think?

You've read my house rules, so you know that I pretty much fully agree with
your rework as you've proposed it.

I'd like to see how it works out, if you don't mind.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 08:05:04 2002
According to Mark M. Smith, on Mon, 04 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Along a similiar line is the HK
> VP-70, using an 18 round clip of 9mm P it was a pretty decent large
> capacity pistol with an extra feature. If you attached a stock to it it
> released an interrupter switch and allowed fully automatic fire.

That one was mentioned in the original post, so I left it out.

> I find that as time goes on I spend less time going to the library and
> looking through Jane's for my small arms info and more time lifting it
> from the Twilight:2000 Infantry Weapons guide.

Good I wasn't drinking anything when I read that, else I might have choked
on it... Are you serious? :) That book has so many simplifications and
annoying little flaws that I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Try to find
the Millennium's End sourcebook Ultramodern Firearms, or The Compendium of
Contemporary Weapons by Palladium instead.


According to Arclight, on Mon, 04 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Did anyone mention the Glock 18 yet?

I knew I'd forgotten one.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 08:05:08 2002
According to Christian Casavant, on Mon, 04 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Fair enough. However, since it is stuck firmly in my head that SMGs use
> Heavy Pistol ammunition, I can't see how a HP can ever be the same
> size as an SMG that's all.

And that's the idea I was trying to get out of your head by saying Concealability
and size are not the same...

> To be fair, I'm pretty certain that's not an SMG. I think it's a
> mislabelled carbine.

I think somebody drew up a couple of pictures which they thought looked cool, and
somebody else then stuck names from the weapons table onto them. I mean, the FN
HAR is a MAG machine gun with a kind of box magazine added...

> The important thing is you have a lot of people questioing the rationale
> and helping to promote a fuller more playable version of the game.

Unfortunately, it'd help more if this sort of stuff had been done by FASA in the
first place :)

> Trekkie mode??? Yech! Thanks for the support, though!

It's what I call the process of justifying things that don't really make sense,
not even in the [game|movie|story] world/universe; I suppose the reason for the
name is clear :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 08:45:01 2002
Christian Casavant wrote:

>Damion
>
>> <boggle!> You said what? Are you _serious_?! I have never, in my entire
time
>> as a SR GM (which is every week of the year, for the last dozen years or so)
>> seen a player take an SMG over a HP unless the reason was a roleplaying one.
>> SMGs suck! A HP starts at 9M, and a BF one goes to 12S. HPs are more
>> concealable, and can quite likely be passed off as legal firearms. They can
>> be crammed into Concealable and Quickdraw Holsters, which SMGs cannot. With
>> the prevalence of body armour in SR, the 2 additional Power that a HP has
>> over an SMG make a significant difference. Shoot somebody with Armour
>> Clothing (3/0) with a HP and they need 6's to resist. They'll resist a 6M
>> SMG round at 3's. Even though burst firing the SMG will make this 6's, you
>> have to tote around a highly illegal automatic weapon, which is probably les
>s
>> concealable (unless you pack a Predator for comparison ;-)), and which will
>> have a much lower effective ammunition capacity. In other words, you'd be
>> nuts!
>
>
>SMGs sucks only in Shadowrun. In real life, they're highly effective,
>and despite your love for Burst Fire heavy pistols, you don't see alot
>of them in real life, bccause BF HPs are really the sucky weapons. (And
>don't you dare cite the Ruger Cheathawk, the LSSS weapon. It's the
>biggest cheese I've ever seen)
>

I'm sorry, but as a player and sometimes GM I have to disagree wholeheartedly, I always
prefer SMGs over Heavy Pistols for a number of reasons. First, I can lay down suppressive
fire, which hits more targets and provides better defense (with no recoil effect).
Secondly, strap a gas vent 4 (maybe even a smartlink) and then you can fire up to 6 shots
(2 bursts or FA) without missing your target any more than with a single shot Heavy
Pistol. If you want to talk concealability, look at the Colt Cobra (in my opinion one of
the best SMGs in the game). Between suppressive fire and the option to do FA with at least
6 bullets and gain at least +6(+2) to power(DL) I see no reason to use anything else
unless you expect to be fighting against hardened armor and in that case a heavy pistol
won't help much either. Besides if you really want stoppping power, why aren't you using a
rifle in the first place.

-George Waksman
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 08:55:09 2002
George S Waksman writes:

> I'm sorry, but as a player and sometimes GM I have to disagree
> wholeheartedly, I always prefer SMGs over Heavy Pistols for a number of
> reasons. <snip reasons> Besides if you really want stoppping power, why
> aren't you using a rifle in the first place.

That's what I usually find. Pretty much all of the reasons you cited are
good ones to choose an SMG over a HP. However, they are also good reasons to
choose an assault rifle over an SMG. The majority of them require a fairly
modded out SMG, which most usually has the adverse side effect of making it
poorly concealable. In such a circumstance, a non concealable assault rifle
is much better at the job. I see players go from HP to AR without even
bothering about the SMG step in between.

There, in my experience, is no attraction to an SMG that is not superceded
by either a HP or AR. If players want their characters to have a
concealable, damaging weapon, they go for a BF HP. If they want lots of
firepower and suppressive fire capability, rather than go for a basically
unconcealable modded out SMG, they go for an unconcealable AR.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 09:05:01 2002
Damion,

> Sounds fair enough, although you might want to tweak either them or HPs, as
> something with more range than a HP and a bigger clip (no to mention
> accessories ;-)) probably shouldn't have the same Concealability/weight/etc.


I was going to do that as well. The idea is that an SMG is a automatic
HP with better range and recoil comp, either in the form of a
retractable stock, gas vent, etc. I will also modify the
concealabilitiesd of weapons to take into account different sizes.

> There is an argument that a longer barrel allows for more complete
> combustion of propellant gases, and thus a greater muzzle velocity. A high
> muzzle velocity will grant both greater range/accuracy as well as higher
> penetrating capability. If you look over all the SR weapons, I think that
> you're going to find some (eg hyper velocity weapons) that must fire small
> calibre rounds, but which have very long barrels. It makes sense to give
> them a small Power bonus, I feel.


You may very well be right. I knew barrel lenths can have a large
effect on muzzle velocity, however I think it's relatively fair
assumption to say a 5.56 Assault rifle and LMG will do the same damage.
The advantage the LMG may or may not have over the assault rife will
be longer barrel (ie. greater accuracy. I will argue this by saying the
sights are further apart so you become inherently more accurate) and
greater distance, which I will argue comes from more completely burning
off the gunpowder. Yes, I know it's not true, but in a world with
magic, I'm taking some physical liberties!!! Really, though I'm not
looking to make this an exercise in projectile motion.


> You've read my house rules, so you know that I pretty much fully agree with

> your rework as you've proposed it.


I hadn't even seen that section until you mentioned it. I like the way
you try to rationalize the machine pistols using holdout ammo, etc, as
you already tried to explain. As a gamemaster (I don't play anymore, so
I employ a large double standard when it comes to my players choosing
weapons!!!) Having said that, I prefer to work the Shadowrun rules
around reality, rather than work the Shadowrun reality around the rules!



> I'd like to see how it works out, if you don't mind.


Sure, no problem at all! I'll post a link to it as soon as I'm ready.
I'm keen to see what you think.

Caveat: I don't want to create weapons tables where people take their
favourite 20th century small arms and say, "Yeah, man the .50 Desert
Eagle is way wikked, Dewd! It should totally be 14S, cuz it's like a
.50cal." I'm really just trying to put perspective into the weapons
chart.

L8ters,

Xian
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 09:20:01 2002
Damion Milliken wrote:

>George S Waksman writes:
>
>> I'm sorry, but as a player and sometimes GM I have to disagree
>> wholeheartedly, I always prefer SMGs over Heavy Pistols for a number of
>> reasons. <snip reasons> Besides if you really want stoppping power, why
>> aren't you using a rifle in the first place.
>
>That's what I usually find. Pretty much all of the reasons you cited are
>good ones to choose an SMG over a HP. However, they are also good reasons to
>choose an assault rifle over an SMG. The majority of them require a fairly
>modded out SMG, which most usually has the adverse side effect of making it
>poorly concealable. In such a circumstance, a non concealable assault rifle
>is much better at the job. I see players go from HP to AR without even
>bothering about the SMG step in between.
>
>There, in my experience, is no attraction to an SMG that is not superceded
>by either a HP or AR. If players want their characters to have a
>concealable, damaging weapon, they go for a BF HP. If they want lots of
>firepower and suppressive fire capability, rather than go for a basically
>unconcealable modded out SMG, they go for an unconcealable AR.
>

The point is that an SMG is sort of like a heavy pistol ++. It really has one great
advantage over the HP, FA mode. In my experience, FA mode is usually not very useful
except for suppressive fire, in which recoil doesn't matter. So unless you never expect to
be in a situation with more than 2 enemies, or your enemies are always fearless
professionals unwilling to run when injured, an unmodded SMG with suppressive fire ability
is useful, and many SMGs contain good integral mods anyway (look at them all).

-George Waksman
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 10:15:00 2002
Christian Casavant writes:

> I prefer to work the Shadowrun rules around reality, rather than work the
> Shadowrun reality around the rules!

<grin> That may well be because you actually know more about RL guns than I
do. As far as I know, SMGs use 'pistol sized' ammo. I rationalised the SR
system so that it made internal sense (within the system and the game world)
without too many changes. You're actually probably going to make both the
system and game world somewhat realistic ;-).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 10:20:02 2002
George S Waksman writes:

> The point is that an SMG is sort of like a heavy pistol ++. It really has
> one great advantage over the HP, FA mode. In my experience, FA mode is
> usually not very useful except for suppressive fire, in which recoil
> doesn't matter. So unless you never expect to be in a situation with more
> than 2 enemies, or your enemies are always fearless professionals unwilling
> to run when injured, an unmodded SMG with suppressive fire ability is
> useful, and many SMGs contain good integral mods anyway (look at them all).

Good point, I see what you mean.

As an aside, I tend to find that NPC professional ratings (or other
indicators of NPC willingness to stay in a fight or flee/surrender) are
rather useless in SR. With a character or two who typically roll ~30 for
Initiative in my games, and who have weapon skills of ~8, even if bad guys
survive the first shot, they don't get a second action until they've been
shot 4 more times... Makes running away or surrendering a little difficult
when you're dead. Very often I wonder if my NPCs are ever going to get the
chance to get an action to flee or give up. The poor things just keep
getting blasted, and then they're all dead. The only ones who tend to
survive tend to also be the ones who will not give up, so from a player's
perspective, it appears that all NPCs literally fight to the death :-).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 11:30:01 2002
On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 12:32:54 +0000
Christian Casavant <christian@********.org> wrote:
> Damion,
>
> ><grin> I, too, had this quandry when I was busy making house rules
> about
> >weapon damages. Pretty much, the only way I could figure that SR
> SMGs had
> >the statistics (magazine capacities, Concealabilities, weights, etc)
> that
> >they do is if they fired the same sort of ammo as Light Pistols. I
> couldn't
> >reconcile them using the same grade of ammo as HPs.
>
>
> It seems as if we've looked at the problem from two different
> directions. I started work last night on a new SR Weapons table
> which will take into account the following assumptions:
>
> - SMGs will fire HP ammunition.
> - Different weapons chambered for the same ammunition will not do
> different damage. Longer barrels will account for greater accuracy
> over distance.
> - Light pistol ammuntion will (most likely) do medium wounds,
> probably at 6M. I've not decided yet. (NB. .380 rounds can weigh up
> to 90gr, which is only slightly lighter than some 9mm rounds.
> Though muzzle velocity is somewhat reduced.)
> - Hold out pistols can be chambered for heavy pistol ammunition such
> as the Ruger Super Warhawk and damage will reflect it.
>
> What do you guys and gals think?
>
> Xian.
>
This sounds like a good approach. In Cyberpunk, weapon damage is ammo
driven, Mike Blum made a huge list of ammo types and their damage.
I've longed for a SR system that did this, but I've had to wait for a
more knowledgable gamer to take the plunge. Thanks.
--Anders
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mark M. Smith)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 13:30:01 2002
At 2/5/02 06:45 AM, you wrote:
>According to Mark M. Smith, on Mon, 04 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...
>
> > Along a similiar line is the HK
> > VP-70, using an 18 round clip of 9mm P it was a pretty decent large
> > capacity pistol with an extra feature. If you attached a stock to it it
> > released an interrupter switch and allowed fully automatic fire.
>
>That one was mentioned in the original post, so I left it out.
>
> > I find that as time goes on I spend less time going to the library and
> > looking through Jane's for my small arms info and more time lifting it
> > from the Twilight:2000 Infantry Weapons guide.
>
>Good I wasn't drinking anything when I read that, else I might have choked
>on it... Are you serious? :) That book has so many simplifications and
>annoying little flaws that I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Try to find
>the Millennium's End sourcebook Ultramodern Firearms, or The Compendium of
>Contemporary Weapons by Palladium instead.

I do agree it oversimplifies a lot and has numerous flaws, but it's often
useful to remember the model number for a weapon that I can't remember
off-hand or what round it chambers and the like. Nothing detailed, but if I
want to get a general idea of say, some .45 caliber SMGs it's a decent
enough quick reference. The Compendium is definately the better book though.

Belgand
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 16:40:02 2002
In article <20020205234838.A25628@***.edu.au>, Damion Milliken
<dam01@***.edu.au> writes
>There is an argument that a longer barrel allows for more complete
>combustion of propellant gases, and thus a greater muzzle velocity.

Not just an argument. A 'SMG'-size 9mm weapon (in the US, civilian
carbines are limited to 16" or longer barrels) typically gains 200-300
feet per second of muzzle velocity compared to a typical 4-5" barrel
handgun, with factory loads. Tweak the load (use a slower-burning
powder) and you can do even better without nasty spikes in chamber
pressure.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 16:40:06 2002
In article <20020205221919.C21758@***.edu.au>, Damion Milliken
<dam01@***.edu.au> writes
>Paul J. Adam writes:
>> By the time you make a pistol controllable enough to be usable in
>> full-auto or burst fire, it's the size and weight of a SMG with a folding
>> stock. In fact, it *is* a SMG.
>
>So the house rule that I know many people use about HPs having heavy weapon
>recoil penalties is fair enough?

It's a pretty good fix.

Find me a burst-fire or full-auto pistol chambered for 10mm, .45ACP,
.357 Magnum or larger rounds. The nearest I can come up with is the
Ingram MAC-10 and the Mini-Uzi, both of which are SMGs.

And if Heavy Pistols do fire the big potent cartriges like 10mm and up,
then there's no reason you can't build a SMG to fire them too. In fact,
I talked to the armourer of a company that converts M16 pattern weapons
to fire .50 Action Express.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Tue Feb 5 16:40:13 2002
In article <20020206022148.B25477@***.edu.au>, Damion Milliken
<dam01@***.edu.au> writes
>As an aside, I tend to find that NPC professional ratings (or other
>indicators of NPC willingness to stay in a fight or flee/surrender) are
>rather useless in SR. With a character or two who typically roll ~30 for
>Initiative in my games, and who have weapon skills of ~8, even if bad guys
>survive the first shot, they don't get a second action until they've been
>shot 4 more times...

Hey, knockdown and "fall prone" Free Actions are your friends there. If
the guy's been shot so hard he's decided to fall down and bleed quietly,
he can fall down right away.

Or he's dropping prone to get out of your line of fire and is planning
to shoot back.

Or he falls down to quit, makes his Willpower roll, and pulls the pin on
a grenade so as to take one of those evil runners with him when he's
searched.

Tricky, that.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Weird SR Weapons (was Called Shot Rules)
Date: Wed Feb 6 05:45:06 2002
According to Mark M. Smith, on Tue, 05 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> I do agree it oversimplifies a lot and has numerous flaws, but it's often
> useful to remember the model number for a weapon that I can't remember
> off-hand or what round it chambers and the like. Nothing detailed, but if
> I want to get a general idea of say, some .45 caliber SMGs it's a decent
> enough quick reference.

Yeah, OK, for that it can come in handy. If you want accurate data, though,
looking elsewhere is a better idea IMHO.

> The Compendium is definately the better book though.

When it comes to weapon game books, I still prefer Ultramodern Firearms,
especially when you have to give the book to your players to let them pick
weapons for their characters.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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