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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Number Ten)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:55:01 2002
Just a few random questions in the "what gives" department that I got
today while perusing various sourcebooks and prepping a run.

(1) Unliving objects get no spell resistance against magic. If the magician
succeeds on a Sorcery test, the spell takes effect. If that's so, is there
a single reason in the world to take any Wreck <Object> spell at a Force
greater than 1?

"The Azzie light tank rumbles towards you."
"I cast my Wreck Tank 1 spell. <rattle of dice> Yep, spell successful."
"Okay, the tank is toast."

Just... doesn't seem right somehow, does it?

(2) According to Shadowrun 2nd ed. main book, orks live 35 to 40 years.
Now, that rule is conspicuously absent from Shadowrun 3rd, but there's
nothing to replace it.

Now, we look at Yamatetsu's new boss, Yuri Shibanokuji. According to
Corporate Download, he goblinized in 2021. It's now 2062. He's been an ork
for 41+ years. Is he at death's door, or did FASA/FanPro change the ork
length of life on me and I didn't notice?

--Elliot

====number_10_ox@**********.com

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Matt Huber)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:20:01 2002
--- Number Ten <Number_10_Ox@**********.com> wrote:
> Just a few random questions in the "what gives"
> department that I got
> today while perusing various sourcebooks and
> prepping a run.
>
> (1) Unliving objects get no spell resistance against
> magic. If the magician
> succeeds on a Sorcery test, the spell takes effect.
> If that's so, is there
> a single reason in the world to take any Wreck
> <Object> spell at a Force
> greater than 1?
>
> "The Azzie light tank rumbles towards you."
> "I cast my Wreck Tank 1 spell. <rattle of dice> Yep,
> spell successful."
> "Okay, the tank is toast."
>
> Just... doesn't seem right somehow, does it?

It doesn't, because you forgot about Object
Resistance. There's a table in the book about it. I
don't have it on me right now, however.

> (2) According to Shadowrun 2nd ed. main book, orks
> live 35 to 40 years.
> Now, that rule is conspicuously absent from
> Shadowrun 3rd, but there's
> nothing to replace it.
>
> Now, we look at Yamatetsu's new boss, Yuri
> Shibanokuji. According to
> Corporate Download, he goblinized in 2021. It's now
> 2062. He's been an ork
> for 41+ years. Is he at death's door, or did
> FASA/FanPro change the ork
> length of life on me and I didn't notice?

They didn't. Yuri _goblinized_. Goblinized orks and
trolls live longer (almost to what they would have as
humans) than those born as orks and trolls.

-Matt/Pickle/Jew-Pac

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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:25:01 2002
Number Ten writes:

> (1) Unliving objects get no spell resistance against magic. If the magician
> succeeds on a Sorcery test, the spell takes effect. If that's so, is there
> a single reason in the world to take any Wreck <Object> spell at a Force
> greater than 1?
>
> "The Azzie light tank rumbles towards you."
> "I cast my Wreck Tank 1 spell. <rattle of dice> Yep, spell
successful."
> "Okay, the tank is toast."
>
> Just... doesn't seem right somehow, does it?

It's a bit silly, isn't it?

One reason to take such a spell at a higher Force would be to counteract
potential Spell Defence (Shielding, etc.). If you've a Force 1 spell, then
any Spell Defence dice given to the tank need to only roll 2's to counteract
your successes.

Also, things are not quite as bad as you think:

p 150 SR3:

"Spells cast against vehicles have a target number based on their
Object Resistance (see p. 182) of 8 plus their Body Rating plus half
their Armour Rating (round down).

...

Note that even though combat spells affect a vehicle from within,
the resilience of vehicle armour still applies. If the Armour Rating
of the vehicle is equal to or greater than the Force of the combat
spell, the spell has no effect."

So, actually, in order for a Wreck spell to work on a Steel Lynx combat
drone, the TN is 8 + 2 (Body) + 4 (Armour/2) = 14. And the spell needs a
Force of 10 or greater (Steel Lynxes have Armour of 9).

> (2) According to Shadowrun 2nd ed. main book, orks live 35 to 40 years.
> Now, that rule is conspicuously absent from Shadowrun 3rd, but there's
> nothing to replace it.
>
> Now, we look at Yamatetsu's new boss, Yuri Shibanokuji. According to
> Corporate Download, he goblinized in 2021. It's now 2062. He's been an ork
> for 41+ years. Is he at death's door, or did FASA/FanPro change the ork
> length of life on me and I didn't notice?

I've never seen a mention that the Ork life span has changed at all. But
remember, the figures listed are _worldwide_ _averages_. The human average
listed in SRII is 55 years. I don't know too many 55 year olds who consider
themselves "at death's door". The averages include such things as high
infant mortality in 3rd world countries and such. An ork in a developed
nation, who had survived infancy (even in developed countries, mortality is
higher for infants), with good health care, could expect to survive much
much longer than the worldwide average of 35 to 40 years.

If we assume an average lifespan of 75 years in developed nations, then this
is a 36% increase over the worldwide average. In fact, due to higher infant
mortality even in 1st world countries, most people live to greater than
their country's average lifespan, as deaths in the early years pull the
average figure down. So the expected lifespan of an _adult_ is probably
closer to 80 years, which is a 45% greater figure than the worldwide average.
Applying these figures to Ork lifespans gets us 50-55 years. Not huge, but
much longer than 41.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:10:01 2002
Damion writes

<snip>


> Number Ten writes:
>
> > (2) According to Shadowrun 2nd ed. main book, orks live 35 to 40 years.
> > Now, that rule is conspicuously absent from Shadowrun 3rd, but there's
> > nothing to replace it.
> >
> > Now, we look at Yamatetsu's new boss, Yuri Shibanokuji. According to
> > Corporate Download, he goblinized in 2021. It's now 2062. He's been an
ork
> > for 41+ years. Is he at death's door, or did FASA/FanPro change the ork
> > length of life on me and I didn't notice?
>
> I've never seen a mention that the Ork life span has changed at all. But
> remember, the figures listed are _worldwide_ _averages_. The human average
> listed in SRII is 55 years. I don't know too many 55 year olds who
consider
> themselves "at death's door". The averages include such things as high
> infant mortality in 3rd world countries and such. An ork in a developed
> nation, who had survived infancy (even in developed countries, mortality
is
> higher for infants), with good health care, could expect to survive much
> much longer than the worldwide average of 35 to 40 years.
>
> If we assume an average lifespan of 75 years in developed nations, then
this
> is a 36% increase over the worldwide average. In fact, due to higher
infant
> mortality even in 1st world countries, most people live to greater than
> their country's average lifespan, as deaths in the early years pull the
> average figure down. So the expected lifespan of an _adult_ is probably
> closer to 80 years, which is a 45% greater figure than the worldwide
average.
> Applying these figures to Ork lifespans gets us 50-55 years. Not huge, but
> much longer than 41.
>
> --

Lies, Damn Lies, and ...

Unfortunatly too many people take the numbers as gospel without realising
how they are worked out. Knowing what's behind the stats avoids erronius
assumptions. I can't see the potential life span being dropped by much
just because you're an ork, or whatever. Troll maybe due to massive size
increase.



Annachie.
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Sun Aug 11 23:45:01 2002
Annachie writes:

> Lies, Damn Lies, and ...

Oh, yeah. The other thing that I forgot to mention is that the listed
lifespans are _averages_. Who's to say that Yuri Shibanokuji isn't simply
above average in his lifespan? The average lifespan in developed nations may
be around 75 years, but that doesn't mean that every person drops dead at 75
on the dot. Some die earlier. Some die later. Some die much later ... 85,
95, 105.

> Unfortunatly too many people take the numbers as gospel without realising
> how they are worked out. Knowing what's behind the stats avoids erronius
> assumptions. I can't see the potential life span being dropped by much
> just because you're an ork, or whatever. Troll maybe due to massive size
> increase.

Who knows? FASA decided to state that Orks and Trolls had diminished
lifespans, and Elves and Dwarfs extended lifespans. I'm sure it wouldn't be
too difficult to come up with "quickened metabolism" or some such
drek-cetera to explain it all away in-game.

And, likewise, as Matt Huber so rightly pointed out (thanks, Matt! I'd
forgotten), Orks and Trolls who goblinise have their normal human lifespans.
Does there need to be a reason? If there does, I'm sure some metaphysical
explanation can be called in. It's SR, after all.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:35:02 2002
According to Paul, on Mon, 12 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> Unfortunatly too many people take the numbers as gospel without realising
> how they are worked out. Knowing what's behind the stats avoids erronius
> assumptions. I can't see the potential life span being dropped by much
> just because you're an ork, or whatever. Troll maybe due to massive size
> increase.

Trolls should probably live longer, due to their larger bodies. Something
I've heard mentioned a few times (I'm not entirely convinced it's true) is
that all animals live to approximately the same number of heartbeats.
Because large animals have slow heartbeats, they live longer than smaller
animals, which have a faster-beating heart. This is why elephants can live
to 60 years or so, while mice die within a few years (I think those numbers
are about right). So if this is right, then trolls should live to the same
number of heartbeats as humans, but because their hearts would beat slower
than a human's, trolls would live longer.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:40:03 2002
>From: "Paul" <paulcollins@*******.com>
>Lies, Damn Lies, and ...
>
>Unfortunatly too many people take the numbers as gospel without realising
>how they are worked out. Knowing what's behind the stats avoids erronius
>assumptions. I can't see the potential life span being dropped by much
>just because you're an ork, or whatever. Troll maybe due to massive size
>increase.

I guess that the reasons orks don't live as long as humans in SR is down
once again to an ED link, the orks in ED were a slave race in effect, slave
races don't tend to live as long...


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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Mon Aug 12 06:35:01 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: What gives? (1 and 2)


According to Paul, on Mon, 12 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> Unfortunatly too many people take the numbers as gospel without realising
> how they are worked out. Knowing what's behind the stats avoids erronius
> assumptions. I can't see the potential life span being dropped by much
> just because you're an ork, or whatever. Troll maybe due to massive size
> increase.

Trolls should probably live longer, due to their larger bodies. Something
I've heard mentioned a few times (I'm not entirely convinced it's true) is
that all animals live to approximately the same number of heartbeats.
Because large animals have slow heartbeats, they live longer than smaller
animals, which have a faster-beating heart. This is why elephants can live
to 60 years or so, while mice die within a few years (I think those numbers
are about right). So if this is right, then trolls should live to the same
number of heartbeats as humans, but because their hearts would beat slower
than a human's, trolls would live longer.



Actually, that is true, but it does follow groupings. The number of
heartbeats is different for the different groupings. I'll have to find you
a reference. (I remember a New Scientist a couple of years ago had an
article on it)
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Mon Aug 12 08:50:00 2002
Records show that at 11:27 on Monday 12/08/02 AEST, Damion Milliken advised:
>Also, things are not quite as bad as you think:
>
>p 150 SR3:
>
> "Spells cast against vehicles have a target number based on their
> Object Resistance (see p. 182) of 8 plus their Body Rating plus half
> their Armour Rating (round down).
>
> ...
>
> Note that even though combat spells affect a vehicle from within,
> the resilience of vehicle armour still applies. If the Armour Rating
> of the vehicle is equal to or greater than the Force of the combat
> spell, the spell has no effect."
>
>So, actually, in order for a Wreck spell to work on a Steel Lynx combat
>drone, the TN is 8 + 2 (Body) + 4 (Armour/2) = 14. And the spell needs a
>Force of 10 or greater (Steel Lynxes have Armour of 9).

Further, the SR3 errata includes the following additional sentences for
page 182: "The Force of the spell must be equal to or greater than half the
Object Resistance, rounded down, for it to affect an object. Vehicles add
Body and half .....".

So, a Force 1 spell simply won't affect vehicles, guns, computers, doors,
clothes or anything technological.


Chris
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Mon Aug 12 09:35:01 2002
>From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.org.au>
>Further, the SR3 errata includes the following additional sentences for
>page 182: "The Force of the spell must be equal to or greater than half the
>Object Resistance, rounded down, for it to affect an object. Vehicles add
>Body and half .....".
>
>So, a Force 1 spell simply won't affect vehicles, guns, computers, doors,
>clothes or anything technological.

I haven't got my books anywhere nearby so I can't check the context, does
that apply to all spells? What about analyse device? Do you need a force 7
(IIRC Object resistance is 12) to tell that the box you have in front of you
is a cyberdeck? What about elemental manipulations?

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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (E. L. King)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Mon Aug 12 09:35:03 2002
You should be aware that as a general rule, smaller dogs live longer
than larger ones.

Erick
On Monday, August 12, 2002, at 04:37 , Gurth wrote:

> According to Paul, on Mon, 12 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...
>
>> Unfortunatly too many people take the numbers as gospel without
>> realising
>> how they are worked out. Knowing what's behind the stats avoids
>> erronius
>> assumptions. I can't see the potential life span being dropped by
>> much
>> just because you're an ork, or whatever. Troll maybe due to massive
>> size
>> increase.
>
> Trolls should probably live longer, due to their larger bodies.
> Something
> I've heard mentioned a few times (I'm not entirely convinced it's true)
> is
> that all animals live to approximately the same number of heartbeats.
> Because large animals have slow heartbeats, they live longer than
> smaller
> animals, which have a faster-beating heart. This is why elephants can
> live
> to 60 years or so, while mice die within a few years (I think those
> numbers
> are about right). So if this is right, then trolls should live to the
> same
> number of heartbeats as humans, but because their hearts would beat
> slower
> than a human's, trolls would live longer.
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> Huh?
> -> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
> -> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
>
> GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
> O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
>
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott Dean Peterson)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Mon Aug 12 09:45:01 2002
Damion Milliken said,

> If we assume an average lifespan of 75 years in developed
> nations, then this
> is a 36% increase over the worldwide average. In fact, due to
> higher infant
> mortality even in 1st world countries, most people live to
> greater than
> their country's average lifespan, as deaths in the early
> years pull the
> average figure down.

um I thought infant mortality rates were higher in developing countries, as
a matter of fact I have my epidemiologist text book here and 2nd world
countries have 18% higher rate of infant mortality rate versus the 1st
worlds, which is used as a base line. The IMR of third world countries is
approximately 27-38% depending on if your close to 2nd or 1st worlds. These
are statistics based on a intro textbook published in 2001.

If your really interested in finding the exact world wide IMR go to
www.cdc.gov and take a look their. If anyone wants to know but cant find it
send me private email and I'll get it for you.

Scott 'Edge' Peterson

Warrior Priest of Storm Haven
Ex epidemiologist El Paso County, El Paso Texas
Ex combat infantry man, 60% disabled.
Training Medical Anthropologist/MPH
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott Dean Peterson)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Mon Aug 12 09:55:01 2002
Annachie said,

> I can't see the potential life span being
> dropped by much
> just because you're an ork, or whatever. Troll maybe due to
> massive size
> increase.

Actually there's quite a bit of difference in the bodies of the various
'races' and there can be significant impacts based on certain innate traits.
The biggest example that comes to mind right off is the dermal plaiting that
is in trolls and orks. I would presume these to be calcium deposits and if
there are large enough on the upper torso, the most compromised system would
be the lymphatic. The calcium deposits would restrict the natural 'Human'
pumping action that moves the fluids through the lymph system. This can be
good and bad. Good because you will have an excess of white blood cells in
your immune system which can fight off diseases. It can be bad if you have
a compromised immune system and the lymph is not moving well enough that
eventually your lymph system will be full of toxins and you could go septic
and or into septic shock, which can kill in under 24 hours.
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Mon Aug 12 11:55:01 2002
From: "Lone Eagle" <loneeagle2061@*******.com>
> >From: "Paul" <paulcollins@*******.com>
> >Lies, Damn Lies, and ...
> >
> >Unfortunatly too many people take the numbers as gospel without realising
> >how they are worked out. Knowing what's behind the stats avoids erronius
> >assumptions. I can't see the potential life span being dropped by much
> >just because you're an ork, or whatever. Troll maybe due to massive size
> >increase.
>
> I guess that the reasons orks don't live as long as humans in SR is down
> once again to an ED link, the orks in ED were a slave race in effect,
slave
> races don't tend to live as long...

When SR1, with the first lifespans for orks, trolls, dwarves, elves and
humans was first published, nobody had even thought about ED yet. ED was
made a few years later, and the ED/SR link was bolted on at the very last
minute IIRC.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:25:01 2002
> > I guess that the reasons orks don't live as long as humans in SR is down
> > once again to an ED link, the orks in ED were a slave race in effect,
>slave
> > races don't tend to live as long...
>
>When SR1, with the first lifespans for orks, trolls, dwarves, elves and
>humans was first published, nobody had even thought about ED yet. ED was
>made a few years later, and the ED/SR link was bolted on at the very last
>minute IIRC.

The link's been going, maybe only as the vaguest of hints but still there,
for a very long while. Maybe it was originally put in as a game balance
thing, I don't know.
The fact is that while it may not have been the original intention it is a
good explanation...

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Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Mon Aug 12 13:45:01 2002
According to Paul, on Mon, 12 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> Actually, that is true, but it does follow groupings. The number of
> heartbeats is different for the different groupings. I'll have to find
> you a reference. (I remember a New Scientist a couple of years ago had
> an article on it)

I saw it on Discover Channel :) Anyway, I'd assume trolls and humans would
be in the same group, so trolls should live longer, whereas orks and elves
should have about the same lifespan as humans, and dwarfs', if anything,
would probably live the shortest time.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Jacobsma)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Mon Aug 12 16:45:01 2002
According to Gurth, on Mon, 12 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...
>
> Trolls should probably live longer, due to their larger bodies. Something
> I've heard mentioned a few times (I'm not entirely convinced it's true) is
> that all animals live to approximately the same number of heartbeats.
> Because large animals have slow heartbeats, they live longer than smaller
> animals, which have a faster-beating heart. This is why elephants can live
> to 60 years or so, while mice die within a few years (I think those
numbers
> are about right). So if this is right, then trolls should live to the same
> number of heartbeats as humans, but because their hearts would beat slower
> than a human's, trolls would live longer.

I've heard the same thing [about heartbeats], but I strongly suspect it's an
[untrue] urban myth. It certainly doesn't hold for dog breeds. Although they
are all the same species, there are great variations in size and lifespan.
The rule of thumb is: the larger the breed, the shorter the life expectancy.
The various metatypes are more like breeds than separate species, so maybe
FASA got the idea from dogs.

--
The Data Wrangler

"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality."
-- Jules de Gautier
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Mon Aug 12 18:25:02 2002
>I've heard the same thing [about heartbeats], but I strongly suspect it's
>an
>[untrue] urban myth.

This is actually a real thing, and follows a general trend accross species
but not within (such as dog breeds). Mice live short furious lives, while
elephants live long slowish lives. Same with whales and stuff. However there
are things that are outside these general trends. Two notable exceptions are
Humans, who live alot longer than they used to because of technology, and
some parots which can outlive their owners as they can live for over a
hundred years.


>It certainly doesn't hold for dog breeds. Although they
>are all the same species, there are great variations in size and lifespan.
>The rule of thumb is: the larger the breed, the shorter the life
>expectancy.

It would be interesting to see how their heart rates compare. Dogs may all
have the same heart rate, which would mean the bigger ones would die first
as their hearts may be under more stress. It may also be a biproduct of the
breeding process, as dogs were bred into these sizes by humans (and didn't
get their by evolution) and so they are not ideally suited towards survival.

>The various metatypes are more like breeds than separate species, so maybe
>FASA got the idea from dogs.

I'd imagine they got them from a fantasy background. Elves and Dwarves are
almost always long lived races in most fantasy books. Humans are the middle
ground, and for Trolls and Orks they probably made them short lived since it
would make them more different from the elves and dwarves, and suited the
"short violent lives" feel that orks tend to have.


--

"No grand idea was ever born in a conference, but alot of foolish ideas have
died there."

F. Scott Fitzgerald


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Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Tue Aug 13 05:50:05 2002
According to John Jacobsma, on Mon, 12 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> I've heard the same thing [about heartbeats], but I strongly suspect it's
> an [untrue] urban myth. It certainly doesn't hold for dog breeds.

Well, yeah, but that's only because they get what they deserve...

:)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Tue Aug 13 06:15:01 2002
Lone Eagle writes:

> I guess that the reasons orks don't live as long as humans in SR is down
> once again to an ED link, the orks in ED were a slave race in effect, slave
> races don't tend to live as long...

But they're not in SR. And anyway, isn't a shortened lifespan for that sort
of reason more environmental than inherent?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Tue Aug 13 06:20:03 2002
Lone Eagle writes:

> I haven't got my books anywhere nearby so I can't check the context, does
> that apply to all spells? What about analyse device? Do you need a force 7
> (IIRC Object resistance is 12) to tell that the box you have in front of
> you is a cyberdeck? What about elemental manipulations?

"The Force of the spell must be equal to or greater than half the Object
Resistance, rounded down, for it to affect an object." So, therefore, in
order to affect computers (OR 10+; we'll say 10 for now) you need a Force 5
spell. This applies to any spell that has "OR" as a Target Number, so it
doesn't actually apply to Elemental Manipulation spells. It's still possible
to fireball that computer just fine... ;-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Tue Aug 13 06:25:01 2002
Scott Dean Peterson writes:

> um I thought infant mortality rates were higher in developing countries, as
> a matter of fact I have my epidemiologist text book here and 2nd world
> countries have 18% higher rate of infant mortality rate versus the 1st
> worlds, which is used as a base line. The IMR of third world countries is
> approximately 27-38% depending on if your close to 2nd or 1st worlds.
> These are statistics based on a intro textbook published in 2001.

Yeah, you're right. But I wasn't claiming otherwise. My point was that
because there is a higher mortality rate among infants in developed
countries than among the general population in developed countries (heck,
this applies in pretty much any country; infancy is a dangerous state in
which to live ;-)), that if a person survived beyond 5 years or so, then
their expected average lifespan was already well above the national average.
This is because the national average is pulled down by all those infants
that kick the bucket early. The average lifespan of a person who has passed
infancy is higher than of a person in general (ie, is higher than the whole
population, which includes infants).

However, you could probably explain this better than I, seeing as you're an
epidemiologist and all ;-).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Tue Aug 13 06:55:01 2002
>From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>
>But they're not in SR. And anyway, isn't a shortened lifespan for that sort
>of reason more environmental than inherent?

I seem to remember something about the life expectancy of a slave's
descendents being reduced, I may be wrong but I think it went for something
along the lines of two generations... maybe the orks adapted to that,
evolved to make their lives easier but shorter and once you've evolved you
can't go back...
I don't know!
It's just magic okay:-)

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Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Tue Aug 13 11:15:01 2002
I think that the shortened lifespan in the SR sett9ing is kind of a mute
point. Much like dogs, even a Mastiff CAN live as long as 12-15 years,
though it is very very rare. Orks in SR tend to be more front line types and
thus have a lifespan that rivals that of a door gunner in Vietnam...come to
think of it, I haven't had even one character last more that 10 years of
game time...maybe I'm doing something wrong? Oh yeah, "____ runs gunz a
blazing at the cybered to the max goon, firing his light pistol..." gm:
"stage down....." Ok, new character.....


Lunatec
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Tue Aug 13 11:20:00 2002
> thus have a lifespan that rivals that of a door gunner in Vietnam...come to

What is the lifespann of a door gunner in Vietnam?

Xian.
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott Dean Peterson)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:55:06 2002
>The average lifespan of a person
> who has passed
> infancy is higher than of a person in general (i.e., is higher
> than the whole
> population, which includes infants).
>
> However, you could probably explain this better than I,
> seeing as you're an
> epidemiologist and all ;-).

Nope you did a good job. I mean what I could add would get the email
deleted after about 3 sentences.

Scott 'Edge' Peterson

Warrior Priest of Storm Haven
Ex epidemiologist El Paso County, El Paso Texas
Ex combat infantry man, 60% disabled.
Ex NREMT-P Nationally Registered Paramedic
Training Medical Anthropologist/MPH
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: What gives? (1 and 2)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:30:02 2002
>> thus have a lifespan that rivals that of a door gunner in Vietnam...come
to

>What is the lifespann of a door gunner in Vietnam?

>Xian.


37 seconds

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