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Message no. 1
From: Wind Dancer <winddancer@***********.NET>
Subject: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:03:18 -0400
Greetz.

I am new to the list as you know from Bull's Greeting, and I am wondering
what is a Munchkin exactly. Like can I have some examples, so I know if I
am leaning that way or not when Playing. I would prefer not to be a
munchie, so please fill 'er up.

WD
Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:15:30 EST
> I am new to the list as you know from Bull's Greeting, and I am
> wondering what is a Munchkin exactly. Like can I have some
> examples, so I know if I am leaning that way or not when Playing. I
> would prefer not to be a munchie, so please fill 'er up.

We need to put something about this in the FAQ (or did Fro already do
that? Guess it's time for me to RTFFAQ again.)

This question always launches a huge debate, but it usually boils
down to two defined groups:

Munchkin (aka munchie): Someone whose soul purpuse is to have the
most ridiculously powerful character, regardless of the rules. These
people (in SR) tend to try and create
Cybered-Shapeshifting-Vampire-Immortal Elf characters (no, that isn't
a list of cahracters, they are all in his or her ONE character).

PowerGamer: Someone seeking the same thing WITHIN the context of the
rules. Shapeshifting mages (sorry Canthros) with Tons of Quickenings
and Spell locks...Lots of skills at 6, but usually almost only
"Useful (aka combat/sorcery/decking/rigging) skills".

Both groups tend to have lousy role-playing, as they are more
interested in powerful characters than developed characters (mild pun
there...). This is, of course, a generalization. Bull's new game,
for example, is a Powergamer heaven, and he was asking about how to
keep it good.

Both groups are often mistaken for the other. (and often, they might
as well be the other.)

Are you a Munchie/PowerGamer? Others have suggested this (very good)
simple test:

Does your character have a military/violent history usually
involving loss of all relatives? Do your skills equal or Exceed 6?
If you have four skills, and three of them are among: Firearms,
Gunnery, Demolitions, Unarmed Combat, Armed Combat. Has your
character never done something in the game for motivation other than
love of combat, revenge, money, or access to better equipment?
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 22:30:26 +0100
Wind Dancer said on 14:03/20 Aug 97...

> I am new to the list as you know from Bull's Greeting, and I am wondering
> what is a Munchkin exactly. Like can I have some examples, so I know if I
> am leaning that way or not when Playing. I would prefer not to be a
> munchie, so please fill 'er up.

Munchkins try to win the game -- which isn't possible in a roleplaying
game at any rate -- and attempt to do so by creating very powerful
characters that break the rules, or form exceptions to the rules (in the
munchkin's mind). The characters do not have much of a background, usually
something like "His whole family was killed by {orks|trolls|wendigos|
dragons|the Yakuza|the CIA|Humanis|insert something else here} and he
wants revenge," and are poorly roleplayed.

The way I see it, munchkinism develops mostly in groups that have little
contact with other roleplayers, and so don't get to see how and what
others play.

Furthermore, although you'll hear people say things like "[insert game
system name] is munchkinous" that's simply not true -- munchkins can
be made in _any_ game, and any game can be roleplayed. It just depends on
the attitudes of the players and the GM.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Looking over the edge...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 4
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:31:02 EDT
On Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:15:30 EST Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:

>Munchkin (aka munchie): Someone whose soul purpuse is to have the
>most ridiculously powerful character, regardless of the rules. These
>people (in SR) tend to try and create
>Cybered-Shapeshifting-Vampire-Immortal Elf characters (no, that isn't
>a list of cahracters, they are all in his or her ONE character).


You mean
cyberzombie-weretroll/greatdragon-vampiric-toxic-insect-spirit-mage-who's-possessed-Harlequin-and-gives-Verjigorm-nightmares,
right? ;) Oh, I forgot one thing: he/she/it/they aren't attached to
anything save money, they have no family (it's wierd, munchkins seem to
exist by spontaneous generation:) and they tend to have a thing for
drooling over anything which would result in more power for their
character (for instance: player owns FoF, or Cybertech, or Shadowtech [or
all three] simply because of all the neat *stuff* contained therein:) And
if they're really low, they don't tell the GM until after they start
pulling the stuff out of the proverbial hind end).


>PowerGamer: Someone seeking the same thing WITHIN the context of the
>rules. Shapeshifting mages (sorry Canthros) with Tons of Quickenings
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What are you implying, Brett? :) 'Sides, I thought I already confessed to
being a recent convert from the powergame/munchkin crowd.


>and Spell locks...Lots of skills at 6, but usually almost only
>"Useful (aka combat/sorcery/decking/rigging) skills".


Been there, done that, got the T-shirt:) I'm much better now . . .
Powergaming's easy, RP's the hard part.


>Both groups tend to have lousy role-playing, as they are more
>interested in powerful characters than developed characters (mild pun
>there...). This is, of course, a generalization. Bull's new game,
>for example, is a Powergamer heaven, and he was asking about how to
>keep it good.
>
>Both groups are often mistaken for the other. (and often, they might
>as well be the other.)


<grump>
That is not true.
</grump>
They're similar. Not identical. I have yet to hear of a munchkin who
bothers to role-play at all. Powergamers, on the other hand, generally
have at least *some* faculty for RP (as superficial and insubstantial as
it might be). I generally define a munchkin as someone who attempts to
win the game without respect for rules and/or role-playing. The
powergamer is someone who's willing to sacrifice game balance (and
plausibility:) for a powerful character, such a person may or may not
have any roleplaying ability (if they don't, I'd consider them a munch.)
Besides, I can tolerate /live with powergaming:) Munchkins, I'd like to
throttle::))


>Are you a Munchie/PowerGamer? Others have suggested this (very good)
>simple test:
>
>Does your character have a military/violent history usually
>involving loss of all relatives? Do your skills equal or Exceed 6?
>If you have four skills, and three of them are among: Firearms,
>Gunnery, Demolitions, Unarmed Combat, Armed Combat. Has your
>character never done something in the game for motivation other than
>love of combat, revenge, money, or access to better equipment?


Not a bad test, but it can still miss some munchies, and it's based on
some broad generalizations (not that stereotypes are all bad, they just
have tendency to be . . . imperfect). OTOH, I've seen guys a lot like
that (Family? Uh . . . they're all . . . uh . . . dead. Yeah, dead.)


--
-Canthros (GM/role-player with powergaming tendencies [currently being
restrained])
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:42:58 -0600
Wind Dancer wrote:
|
| Greetz.

Howdy.

| I am new to the list as you know from Bull's Greeting, and I am wondering
| what is a Munchkin exactly. Like can I have some examples, so I know if I
| am leaning that way or not when Playing. I would prefer not to be a
| munchie, so please fill 'er up.

A Munchkin is basically someone who is selfish to the point that they
don't care about anyone else. Munchkins generally identify
themselves in RPGs when they create a powerful character with no
personality, and then try to "win" the game (winning equal reaching
whatever goals they have set for themselves), with no regard for the
game itself, or other characters. That's the most common encounter.
But sometimes a munchkin isn't that focused, or bright, in which case
they reveal themselves when they take offense when the game isn't
going the way they want to the point that they childishly whine and
throw a tantrum.

If your a decent person, mature, want to play a good game, want to
have fun with good friends, take responsibility for mistakes, learn
from mistakes, and work to grow, then you're not a munchkin.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 6
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:50:33 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-20 16:35:51 EDT, you write:

> Furthermore, although you'll hear people say things like "[insert game
> system name] is munchkinous" that's simply not true -- munchkins can
> be made in _any_ game, and any game can be roleplayed. It just depends on
> the attitudes of the players and the GM.

Would the sentence "[Insert game system name here] is more conducive to
munchkinism in general" suit you better? The horror stories I could tell you
about Palladium players.....

Wolfstar
Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:12:56 -0600
George Metz wrote:
|
| In a message dated 97-08-20 16:35:51 EDT, you write:
|
| > Furthermore, although you'll hear people say things like "[insert game
| > system name] is munchkinous" that's simply not true -- munchkins can
| > be made in _any_ game, and any game can be roleplayed. It just depends on
| > the attitudes of the players and the GM.
|
| Would the sentence "[Insert game system name here] is more conducive to
| munchkinism in general" suit you better? The horror stories I could tell you
| about Palladium players.....

A better way might be to say "[Insert game system name here] is more
attractive to munchkinism." Semantics, I know. But, I feel it works
better.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 8
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:26:14 -0600
At 15:15 8/20/97 EST, you wrote:
>> I am new to the list as you know from Bull's Greeting, and I am
>> wondering what is a Munchkin exactly. Like can I have some
>> examples, so I know if I am leaning that way or not when Playing. I
>> would prefer not to be a munchie, so please fill 'er up.
>
>We need to put something about this in the FAQ (or did Fro already do
>that? Guess it's time for me to RTFFAQ again.)

There's a blurb about in part III.

(Hope this works right, pasting from dos edit.. <g>)

Munchkin
Either noun or verb. Munchkinism is exhibited in two
primary forms of expression, that of rules
interpretation/implementation and power.

Munchkins tend to interpret rules in either the broadest
possible sense or such that benefits shall be
disproportionately bestowed, especially in exclusive favor
to their character. They consistently push the envelope of
the letter and spirit of the law in an effort to gain the
greatest (sometimes individual) latitude. Usually, areas
targeted for such pressure are instances where the published
rules are particularly vague or may not specifically apply,
i.e., loopholes.

Besides this, Munchkins are quite willing to take leave of
the game system to achieve their desires and demonstrate a
great willingness to alter, augment, or eliminate the rules
without paying due consideration to alternatives to or the
ramifications of their actions.

As has already been implied, the end product of all
Munchkins efforts lead to one thing: Power. Munchkins are
driven by the desire to become the most potent player in the
group/setting/world in which they are playing. Further, any
questions as to the believability (within the genre) or
feasibility of such exceedingly potent characters or are not
salient to the Munchkin. Also, Munchkins are generally very
reticent to create serious obstacles or problems for his
character, and typically they exhibit most grievous vexation
should the Game Master or other players frustrate his plans.
In line with this, they energetically seek to avoid any
disadvantages or costs in an effort to achieve their goals.
A Munchkin EXPECTS to win all the time.

True, it may be argued that the above behaviours are merely
natural tendencies, but they attain a certain fanaticism in
Munchkins.

-Adam

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel
Message no. 9
From: Wind Dancer <winddancer@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 19:42:11 -0400
At 05:26 PM 8/20/97 -0600, you wrote:
> Munchkin
> rules are particularly vague or may not specifically apply,
> i.e., loopholes.
<snip>

Hmm, I know a few people like this.... :)

<snip>
> True, it may be argued that the above behaviours are merely
> natural tendencies, but they attain a certain fanaticism in
> Munchkins.
>
>-Adam

Thank you for such a perfect explanation, now It is good that I can
comprehend such things, for the language is quite involved. <grin>

WD
Message no. 10
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 18:15:11 -0600
At 19:42 8/20/97 -0400, you wrote:
><snip>
>> True, it may be argued that the above behaviours are merely
>> natural tendencies, but they attain a certain fanaticism in
>> Munchkins.
>>
>>-Adam
>
>Thank you for such a perfect explanation, now It is good that I can
>comprehend such things, for the language is quite involved. <grin>

I must confess that I did not myself write the above passage, it was
written by Doctor Doom, who is now sadly departed from the internet and
these mailing lists.
And of course, cut down on the amount of big words we have to read.. ;)

-Adam

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel
Message no. 11
From: Wind Dancer <winddancer@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:55:02 -0400
At 03:15 PM 8/20/97 EST, you wrote:
>Are you a Munchie/PowerGamer? Others have suggested this (very good)
>simple test:
>
>Does your character have a military/violent history usually
>involving loss of all relatives? Do your skills equal or Exceed 6?
>If you have four skills, and three of them are among: Firearms,
>Gunnery, Demolitions, Unarmed Combat, Armed Combat. Has your
>character never done something in the game for motivation other than
>love of combat, revenge, money, or access to better equipment?

ok, looking at my current character:

loss of all relatives: No
Equal or exceed 6: 2 of 6 are
four skills: only one firearms
always does something for stuff other that money.

I guess I ain't a munchkin.. :)

so what am I? <grin>

WD
Message no. 12
From: Wind Dancer <winddancer@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:38:59 -0400
At 02:42 PM 8/20/97 -0600, David wrote:
>If your a decent person, mature, want to play a good game, want to
>have fun with good friends, take responsibility for mistakes, learn
>from mistakes, and work to grow, then you're not a munchkin.

Oh, so there is some hope for me. I have been tired of munchkins and
excessive powergaming <all the time type> for a few years now, and Am
finally able to go about fixing that. In campaigns under other gaming
sessions, I needed to stupe to the powergaming level just to servive, for
the DM was encoraging it. I am trying to run something for them now, but
alas, they are changing it around some more... :( When does it ever end?
Message no. 13
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 22:29:24 -0400
Wind Dancer once dared to write,

>... and I am wondering what is a Munchkin exactly. Like can I have some
>examples, so I know if I am leaning that way or not when Playing. I would
>prefer not to be a munchie, so please fill 'er up.

They are not as cool to play as the Munchikens. B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

I swear to tell
the Truth, the partial Truth, or something like the Truth.

I am MC23
Message no. 14
From: Mike Sapp <cynner29@******.NET>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:29:32 -0400
<snip>
For alot of good information on the various types of players check out the
Munchkin Page.
<http://www-cui.darmstadt.gmd.de/~stenger/Personal/Rpg/Munchkin/>;

I forget the name of the guy who set it up, but he gives you enough info
to become a quasi-expert on the subject. A word to the wise though, pay
attention to the warnings to avoid eating and drinking while reading the
page, it's hilarious.
Message no. 15
From: Wind Dancer <winddancer@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:37:35 -0400
At 11:29 PM 8/20/97 -0400, you wrote:
><snip>
> For alot of good information on the various types of players check
out the
>Munchkin Page.
><http://www-cui.darmstadt.gmd.de/~stenger/Personal/Rpg/Munchkin/>;
>
> I forget the name of the guy who set it up, but he gives you enough
info
>to become a quasi-expert on the subject. A word to the wise though, pay
>attention to the warnings to avoid eating and drinking while reading the
>page, it's hilarious.
>


Thnks. For ther wharnin and ther address
Message no. 16
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 04:55:55 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-20 16:46:50 EDT, you write:

> Not a bad test, but it can still miss some munchies, and it's based on
> some broad generalizations (not that stereotypes are all bad, they just
> have tendency to be . . . imperfect). OTOH, I've seen guys a lot like
> that (Family? Uh . . . they're all . . . uh . . . dead. Yeah, dead.)

Actually, it's not that great of a test. My current character fit that out
of the gate, so to speak, except she had more than 4 skills. She's popped her
spurs once in a game, and fired a gun once. She lost all close relatives, but
tha twas more because, how do you walk in to your parent's house for
Thanksgiving dinner when you've got so much cyber a vampire wouldn't feed off
you? And shadowrunners' parents don't getthe military "regret to inform you"
types of letters. It makes a more plausible reason for the character to be
running.
You're also missing a group, I just realized: The Gamer Supreme. No, it's
not that pizza you order during gaming session, but the ones who come up with
new, innovative, and incredibly sadistic ways to screw over any NPC they
happen across without stretching a single rule by even so much as a micron.
Can't give you a Shadowrun example, but here's an AD&D one: Ever notice how
Drow mages have this bad habit of using Darkness and Levitate spells to
bombard PCs from an unseen position? Well, a mage looked up one day, saw the
floating inkblots, and cast Dispel Magic. 100' fall, all the drow went
squish. This character was memorizing nothing BUT Dispel Magic and Magic
Missile for entire campaigns, because he'd keep coming up with ways to use
Dispel Magic offensively.

Wolfstar
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:41:08 +0100
George Metz said on 16:50/20 Aug 97...

> Would the sentence "[Insert game system name here] is more conducive to
> munchkinism in general" suit you better? The horror stories I could tell you
> about Palladium players.....

That is much better. I've not played any Palladium game, so I can't say
anything about that, but I'll quote **&* as another example. You can have
great ROLEplaying adventures in it, but it's very easy to ROLLplay as
well.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Looking over the edge...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 18
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:26:23 EST
> You mean
> cyberzombie-weretroll/greatdragon-vampiric-toxic-insect-spirit-mage-
> who's-possessed-Harlequin-and-gives-Verjigorm-nightmares, right? ;)

Hey! who told you about my character? :)


> Oh, I forgot one thing: he/she/it/they aren't attached to anything
> save money, they have no family (it's wierd, munchkins seem to exist
> by spontaneous generation:) and they tend to have a thing for
> drooling over anything which would result in more power for their
> character (for instance: player owns FoF, or Cybertech, or

Yeah, I mentioned that below.

> >rules. Shapeshifting mages (sorry Canthros) with Tons of Quickenings
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> What are you implying, Brett? :) 'Sides, I thought I already

I wasn't trying to imply, I just didn't want the newbie to get the
wrong impression of you. Converts are to be encouraged, not
belittled. (Spoken as a rules-lawyer/Min-maxer convert)

> >Both groups are often mistaken for the other. (and often, they might
> >as well be the other.)
> That is not true.
> They're similar. Not identical. I have yet to hear of a munchkin who

I wasn't saying they were identical (say, newbie [sorry, forgot your
name] this is the debate I was saying always arises.) I was just
saying they overlap in a lot of things. And I wouldn't say that
powergamers always have a BASIC role-playing sense...most Powergamers
I've met treat RP'ing like chess....no emotion, just a challenge to
win within the rules. (Not saying ALL PG's are that way, just that
enough are...)

> >Does your character have a military/violent history usually
> >involving loss of all relatives? Do your skills equal or Exceed 6?

There was my mention of no family. This is significant enough to
warrant repeating, as it is usually a big indicator. Family=a
possiblity for an actual personality for the character.

> >Gunnery, Demolitions, Unarmed Combat, Armed Combat. Has your
> >character never done something in the game for motivation other than
> >love of combat, revenge, money, or access to better equipment?

And there is the mention of getting goodies.

> Not a bad test, but it can still miss some munchies, and it's based
> on some broad generalizations (not that stereotypes are all bad,
> they just have tendency to be . . . imperfect). OTOH, I've seen guys
> a lot like that (Family? Uh . . . they're all . . . uh . . . dead.
> Yeah, dead.)

True. I should get of my butt and do a write up on
Powergamer/Munchies on my Web site. 'Course, I've got a one month
backlog of submissions too. Sigh. Well, my fiance leaves for France
for a year in two weeks, so I'll have lots of time then.
Message no. 19
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:27:10 EST
> If your a decent person, mature, want to play a good game, want to
> have fun with good friends, take responsibility for mistakes, learn
> from mistakes, and work to grow, then you're not a munchkin.

Wow, that's perhaps the harshest statement I've yet seen.
:)
Message no. 20
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:28:06 EST
> > Furthermore, although you'll hear people say things like "[insert game
> > system name] is munchkinous" that's simply not true -- munchkins can
> > be made in _any_ game, and any game can be roleplayed. It just depends on
> > the attitudes of the players and the GM.
>
> Would the sentence "[Insert game system name here] is more
> conducive to
> munchkinism in general" suit you better? The horror stories I could
> tell you about Palladium players.....

Or if you had a pushover GM in First Edition Mage....(where magic was
ALL a Storyteller call...well, 90% of it at least)
Message no. 21
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:31:52 EST
> ok, looking at my current character:
>
> loss of all relatives: No
> Equal or exceed 6: 2 of 6 are
> four skills: only one firearms
> always does something for stuff other that money.
>
> I guess I ain't a munchkin.. :)
>
> so what am I? <grin>

A few options:

1) Realistic
2) A Powergamer who read my test in such a way to have a Powergaming
character that passed. :)
3) A Munchie whose character is an alien where the relatives are all
alive but on another planet/timeframe/dimension.
Message no. 22
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:33:07 EST
> Oh, so there is some hope for me. I have been tired of munchkins
> and excessive powergaming <all the time type> for a few years now,
> and Am finally able to go about fixing that. In campaigns under
> other gaming sessions, I needed to stupe to the powergaming level
> just to servive, for the DM was encoraging it. I am trying to run

Yeah, a bad GM can be a problem. For example, I had an SR character,
who after ONLY 2 runs, had 24 Good Karma and 1.3 MILLION Nuyen. Now
I'm good(IMNSHO), but....
Message no. 23
From: Wind Dancer <winddancer@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:41:56 -0400
At 03:26 PM 8/21/97 EST, Brett Borger wrote:

<snip>

>I've met treat RP'ing like chess....no emotion, just a challenge to
>win within the rules. (Not saying ALL PG's are that way, just that
>enough are...)

What I have knowticed on the winning part, is in these game systems where
you can theoretically not win, they try to win by out talking the GM, so
that they seem to know more about the system than the GM. This is a
situation I am comeing out of, as in I was in a group that did this always,
and it just gets on your nerves after a while, especially when you are GM..

WD
Message no. 24
From: Wind Dancer <winddancer@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:41:58 -0400
At 03:27 PM 8/21/97 EST, Brett Borger wrote:
>> If your a decent person, mature, want to play a good game, want to
>> have fun with good friends, take responsibility for mistakes, learn
>> from mistakes, and work to grow, then you're not a munchkin.
>
>Wow, that's perhaps the harshest statement I've yet seen.
>:)
>

True, but from where I see it, it is a true statement to say the least, in
most cases.

WD

Ok, ok, flame me. :)
Message no. 25
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:43:17 -0500
At 03:28 PM 8/21/97 EST, Brett Borger wrote:

>Or if you had a pushover GM in First Edition Mage....(where magic was
>ALL a Storyteller call...well, 90% of it at least)

No kidding. example:

Caine: "Hi, I'm Caine, the father of all vampires." "
Starting Mage: "Oh. Hi. *poof* You're a lawn chair. Where's my martini?"

Thank god for second editions.


Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton
Message no. 26
From: Wind Dancer <winddancer@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:48:39 -0400
At 03:33 PM 8/21/97 EST, Brett Borger wrote:

>Yeah, a bad GM can be a problem. For example, I had an SR character,
>who after ONLY 2 runs, had 24 Good Karma and 1.3 MILLION Nuyen. Now
>I'm good(IMNSHO), but....
>

Well, I would say that for the Karma, some of that was from an awesome
Charactrer Description, and as for the Nuyen, uhh, dunno. :)

WD
Message no. 27
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:55:07 EDT
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:26:23 EST Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>> You mean
>> cyberzombie-weretroll/greatdragon-vampiric-toxic-insect-spirit-mage-
>> who's-possessed-Harlequin-and-gives-Verjigorm-nightmares, right? ;)
>
>Hey! who told you about my character? :)


*Your* character?! I thought that was one of *my* characters (NOT!) ;) Oh
yeah, is he a homicidal maniac/psychopath, too? If so, it seems the same
Evil Forces (tm) influenced the creation of his (weaker) brethren over
here:)



>> >rules. Shapeshifting mages (sorry Canthros) with Tons of Quickenings
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> What are you implying, Brett? :) 'Sides, I thought I already
>
>I wasn't trying to imply, I just didn't want the newbie to get the
>wrong impression of you. Converts are to be encouraged, not
>belittled. (Spoken as a rules-lawyer/Min-maxer convert)


Needn't worry, if I'd been offended, I wouldn't have bothered with the
smiley:) <-see;) I really tend to think of myself as someone who was sort
of lead astray by a munchkinous GM and player in first few games I was
in:) And I understand rules-lawyering: I was the only guy in the group
who bothered to look at anything besides the pictures outside the
character creation chapter:( (One of the first two guys hadn't even
noticed racial maximums<sigh> and that was *after* he claimed to have
read the book)



>I wasn't saying they were identical (say, newbie [sorry, forgot your
>name] this is the debate I was saying always arises.) I was just
>saying they overlap in a lot of things. And I wouldn't say that
>powergamers always have a BASIC role-playing sense...most Powergamers
>I've met treat RP'ing like chess....no emotion, just a challenge to
>win within the rules. (Not saying ALL PG's are that way, just that
>enough are...)


Okay, I'll buy that.



--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
Warning: Homepage in Transit
Message no. 28
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:14:36 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-21 15:29:37 EDT, you write:

> > Would the sentence "[Insert game system name here] is more
> > conducive to
> > munchkinism in general" suit you better? The horror stories I could
> > tell you about Palladium players.....
>
> Or if you had a pushover GM in First Edition Mage....(where magic was
> ALL a Storyteller call...well, 90% of it at least)

True, but even Mage wasn't as open to abuse as Rifts is. At least Mage had
consequences for goofing off. I saw some twit on Palladium's message base
trying to munchkin a rule to increase damage by 1D6 after it was stated it
couldn't be done. When I went off on how he had nothing better to do than be
a cheddarhead, his response was, "It took me 3 seconds to come up with that,
and I don't even have the book!" My response, "I rest my case."

Wolfstar
Wolfstar
Message no. 29
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:49:15 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-22 06:05:08 EDT, you write:

> >Or if you had a pushover GM in First Edition Mage....(where magic was
> >ALL a Storyteller call...well, 90% of it at least)
>
> No kidding. example:
>
> Caine: "Hi, I'm Caine, the father of all vampires." "
> Starting Mage: "Oh. Hi. *poof* You're a lawn chair. Where's my martini?"

Two words: Paradox Backlash. Three Words: First Generation Vampire. No. Even
if he had the Spheres available, Caine's got a discipline that'll counter
it.(Why not? He know's 'em all. Temporis anyone?)

Wolfstar
Message no. 30
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 18:14:43 -0400
At 05:49 PM 8/22/97 -0400, George Metz wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 97-08-22 06:05:08 EDT, you write:
>
>> >Or if you had a pushover GM in First Edition Mage....(where magic was
>> >ALL a Storyteller call...well, 90% of it at least)
>>
>> No kidding. example:
>>
>> Caine: "Hi, I'm Caine, the father of all vampires." "
>> Starting Mage: "Oh. Hi. *poof* You're a lawn chair. Where's my
martini?"
>
>Two words: Paradox Backlash. Three Words: First Generation Vampire. No. Even
>if he had the Spheres available, Caine's got a discipline that'll counter
>it.(Why not? He know's 'em all. Temporis anyone?)
>
Yeah, but Mages that turn big, powerful, angst-filled vampires into lawn
chairs and soap bubbles is the only thing that makes WW games bearable...:]

<grin>

Bull-the-teasing-the-WW-players-again-Ork-Decker
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"CrapGame, you bitch!"
-- R.C. during the Drive in the Country tournament
Message no. 31
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 18:28:51 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-22 17:50:24 EDT, W0lfstar@***.COM writes:

> > Caine: "Hi, I'm Caine, the father of all vampires." "
> > Starting Mage: "Oh. Hi. *poof* You're a lawn chair. Where's my
martini?"
>
>
> Two words: Paradox Backlash. Three Words: First Generation Vampire. No.
Even
> if he had the Spheres available, Caine's got a discipline that'll counter
> it.(Why not? He know's 'em all. Temporis anyone?)
>
Okay, I have to ask... the question of the "Lawn Chair"...who came up with
it? Is it in the Vampire books themselves or is it something a player came
up with. The reason I asked is one of my players here LAST NIGHT made this
comment to me while we were out at Rio Bravo. It made me wonder where the
comment came from.

-K
Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 11:18:20 +0100
J. Keith Henry said on 18:28/23 Aug 97...

> Okay, I have to ask... the question of the "Lawn Chair"...who came up with
> it? Is it in the Vampire books themselves or is it something a player came
> up with. The reason I asked is one of my players here LAST NIGHT made this
> comment to me while we were out at Rio Bravo. It made me wonder where the
> comment came from.

Wasn't it from Chris Kubasik's review of first-edition Mage in White Wolf
magazine? This is where the "You're a soap bubble" thing comes from...
I'll look it up in White Wolf #38, hang on.

Okay, I've now determined that it must have come from somewhere else, and
though I could swear I've seen it in print somewhere I don't remember
where :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Looking over the edge...
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Message no. 33
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: What is a Munchkin (and how do I make one NOT)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 15:02:23 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-22 18:25:30 EDT, you write:

> >Two words: Paradox Backlash. Three Words: First Generation Vampire. No.
Even
> >if he had the Spheres available, Caine's got a discipline that'll counter
> >it.(Why not? He know's 'em all. Temporis anyone?)
> >
> Yeah, but Mages that turn big, powerful, angst-filled vampires into lawn
> chairs and soap bubbles is the only thing that makes WW games
bearable...:]

And I quote: "I'm a Vampire, I'll live forever!" "Yup. And now you're a
balloon." <POP!> =)

Wolfstar

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