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Message no. 1
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: What is it about Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:30:37 -0400
I realised the strangest thing the other day. I've been playing Shadowrun
since late 1989, which means somewhere around 11 years. I was 24 when I
bought the SR1 main book. For much of that time, I've played at least twice
a week, and for the last few years, I've rotated around 5 groups with
multiple GMs and a core of something like 20 players. And yet I still play,
and still am involved online in discussion of it. At my age, and with what
might charitably be called a very busy life, I spent some time wondering why
this game - and no other of its type - had held my interest for so long.

The I realised something else. While we've played in such exotic locales as
Germany [brief portions of a few campaigns], Tir Tairngire [entire
campaign], Tir N'an Og [portions of several campaigns], the Middle East
[entire campaign], Denver [3 entire campaigns], Chicago [count 'em, *5*
entire campaigns!], and various other countries and locales, there are so
many we haven't played in. Although we've all read California Free State, we
*still* have done little more than visit it. While we've talked about a full
NAN campaign - come on, we've got 2 whole books devoted to it - we've still
just, essentially, vacationed there. We've played maybe two adventures with
Cyberpirates material, and three with Smugglers' Havens [New Orleans,
Siberia, African coast]. It's not that we don't *like* those places, it's
just that we *haven't gotten around to it yet.* After 11 years of playing.

I've played literally hundreds of characters. At last count, my GM had made
over 1,000 full character sheets. [He's a dork. Seriously.] And whenever
some guest Gm says, "We're making new characters," there's never any
shortage of ideas for them. I'm playing, most recently, a socially adept
drug addict, son of wealth and culture who got dragged into drug deals
through his debts to his dealer, and, as his dealer moved up in the scale of
crime, dragged my character up with him. This isn't a character I've ever
played before. How can I still have completely new character ideas after 11
years? I've played an incredible panoply of characters, from Catholic
priests to a Toxic Horned God Shaman, from elven mages to a cyberzombie
[pre-Cybertech] who'd replaced his brain [the only flesh he had left] after
deciding it was "bothersome." [That was a campaign designed for pushing the
limits. And being really silly. :) ]

And I'm not alone. Besides my core of 5 players who've been with me for all
11 years, there's all of you, many of whom have similar stories to tell.

[Replies could easily snip everything but the below chunk.]

So my question is this; what is it about Shadowrun that can keep us
interested, that allows us to still have options for characters and places
and campaigns, even after so many games and so many years of playing?
Message no. 2
From: caelric@****.com caelric@****.com
Subject: What is it about Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 07:53:27 -0700
At 09:30 AM 4/19/00 -0400, a_e wrote:
>
> At last count, my GM had made
>over 1,000 full character sheets. [He's a dork. Seriously.]

Do I see some problems in the near future for a_e's characters....Tir
Tairngire assassins coming after them, perhaps? Heh!



>So my question is this; what is it about Shadowrun that can keep us
>interested, that allows us to still have options for characters and places
>and campaigns, even after so many games and so many years of playing?
>
>
>

My thoughts are that it is because SR is in the modern world, or close to
it, at least. We can all relate, but at the same time, we can all play out
all the magical fantasies we've had ever since we started reading sci-fi
and fantasy books as a little kid. The breadth of the SR universe is
large, precisely because it incorporates so many different elements:
magic, cyberware, science fiction, computers, gangs, the Mob, ancient
secrets from the long lost world, evil invaders, insects, elves, dwarves,
orks, trolls, vampites, etc...

I could go on, but you get the point. The variety of SR is the reason, in
my opinion

Dave
Message no. 3
From: Dan Grabon djmoose@******.kornet.net
Subject: What is it about Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:04:12 +0900
On 4/19/00 11:53 PM, caelric@****.com at caelric@****.com wrote:

> My thoughts are that it is because SR is in the modern world, or close to
> it, at least. We can all relate, but at the same time, we can all play out
> all the magical fantasies we've had ever since we started reading sci-fi
> and fantasy books as a little kid. The breadth of the SR universe is
> large, precisely because it incorporates so many different elements:
> magic, cyberware, science fiction, computers, gangs, the Mob, ancient
> secrets from the long lost world, evil invaders, insects, elves, dwarves,
> orks, trolls, vampites, etc...
Dave hit it pretty well here-- the variety's the thing. (Mostly)
well-written material, in the form of rulebooks, sourcebooks, and novels,
helps too. Sourcebooks don't just give you ideas, they draw you in and
flesh them out enough where you really want to explore them further. And
since the SR world includes so many different elements and players, it's
extremely easy to adapt ideas you get from books, movies, the news,
whatever. Practically every time I watch a movie these days, I find myself
rushing for a notebook with some sudden insight for a character or a run.

Another thing, I think, is the nature of the rules. There are complex
parts, to be sure, but the basics are pretty easy to deal with. It's also
easy to fudge or guess at things when you don't feel like thumbing through a
stack of books for one success test. In my mind, at least, that makes the
mechanics a little more transparent and allows roleplaying to stay the key
focus.

As for those zillions of characters that a_e mentioned, I know the feeling.
I've got tons made up already and I never stop coming up with completely
different ideas. Well, nothing as different as a toxic Horned God Shaman
yet, but still not just Joe Samurai or Jane Physad. Here again, the rules
play a helping hand. There are no set character classes, no sets of
required skills, no random number-based stats to ruin your brilliant idea
for a character. The rules give you the freedom to create what you want--
but hem you in just enough to keep you on your toes and maybe force some
interesting modifications you wouldn't have otherwise thought of.

viva Shadowrun! :) Or in a more Korean style, "Shadowrun fighting!!!"
nevermind. :)

-moose

---
Dan "Moose" Grabon - djmoose@******.kornet.net
I know how to have fun, but how exactly does one Wang Chung?
Message no. 4
From: Wildfire@*************.com Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: What is it about Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:30:41 GMT
On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 07:53:27 -0700 shadowrn@*********.com wrote:
> At 09:30 AM 4/19/00 -0400, a_e wrote:

>
>
> >So my question is this; what is it about Shadowrun that can keep us
> >interested, that allows us to still have options for characters and places
> >and campaigns, even after so many games and so many years of playing?
> >
> >
> >
>
> My thoughts are that it is because SR is in the modern world, or close to
> it, at least. We can all relate, but at the same time, we can all play out
> all the magical fantasies we've had ever since we started reading sci-fi
> and fantasy books as a little kid.

I think that's it exactly. I've played such a wide range of games (Shadowrun to Amber in
less than 24 hrs for a couple months, that was a trip), but I find it so much easier to
make new characters and GM inside the Shadowrun world because although you could never
'jack in' in real life, or throw a fireball, there's enough that's the same that you can
easily imagine how a characater would react to things. You have a much better idea of how
your rigger would feel trying to lose the Lone Star car tailing him through the city, then
say, how your thief feels trying to deactivate a trap inside an underground cavern. You
can come up with nearly endless ideas for motivations/new characters because you're much
better attuned to how the world works now with gov't, cities, and tech than a lot of
settings that involve castles and kindoms, or planets and space.

Wildfire (sometimes with a DC)
Terminally Behind SOTA

4.19.00 - Status Report
---
ACen2K - 23 days and counting. Panic Now!!!
Otakon2000 - 108 days and counting...
Message no. 5
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: What is it about Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:35:06 -0500
:So my question is this; what is it about Shadowrun that can keep us
:interested, that allows us to still have options for characters and places
:and campaigns, even after so many games and so many years of playing?


This may be a boring an prosaic answer that reveals my lack of
imagination and verbal grace, but I think its one that covers 99% of the
issue.
Shadowrun is based on "real life", but with major new elements added,
and real world issues magnified and distorted to a huge extent. Most other
games are based on some entirely new setting, with "real life" filtered in
to various amounts, or are set in "real life" with only limited fantastic /
fictional changes.
What this means is that you don't have to discard your current day
perceptions and imaginings, but you must expand them in new directions, or
adapt them to new circumstance.
Shadowrun makes this easier than other games, where (most people) have a
hard time adapting their imagination to the basic setting, let alone the
details of daily life and unique characterization.
On the other hand, Shadowrun incorporates enough of the fantastic
(magic, sci-fi, social upheaval, etc.) that players get a sense of wonder.
I
suppose this taps into Jungian archetypes or something at some level, but
its that basic "heh, cool" response that people have when you describe
various aspects of the Shadowrun world and characters.
Also, Shadowrun characters (PC and NPC) are probably the least
circumscribed of any game I've encountered, either by design ("you're a
vampire") or by setting ("you are living in medieval Japan"). Even games
that intentionally allow a broad range of characters (through time / space
travel, etc.) tend to limit those characters by requiring that they
participate in some limited set of activities (time / space travel, at
least) or simply by not having enough background material to provide most
people with what they need to stoke their imagination. Shadowrun books, or
at least Shadowrun players, seem to be able to avoid this problem.
Admittedly, being a "Shadowrunner" gets limiting sooner or later, but people
can break out of that mold pretty easily when they find it limiting, without
ruining the game, because the world has a balance of elements, and isn't
strongly dependant on one type of player character (fantasy adventurers,
vampires, time travelers, whatever).

Mongoose


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Message no. 6
From: kawaii trunks@********.org
Subject: What is it about Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:44:06 -0400
From: "abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com>
> So my question is this; what is it about Shadowrun that can keep us
> interested, that allows us to still have options for characters and places
> and campaigns, even after so many games and so many years of playing?

Personally, I do it just to live out my dreams of having a pseudo criminal
empire, without actually going out and commiting crimes. ;)

In all seriousness, I think it has been covered that SR provides a plethora
of ideas and concepts that can really get one to go "hmm." and sit down and
think. =) I think that by basing on the Real World, it can skim over a lot
of really deep background stuff that other games must delve into, which lets
it focus more on the "specialness", if you will, of its particular variation
about the future, giving it a richer atmosphere.

I mean, I've made characters based off nothing more than three lines of
shadowtalk in one sourcebook that I've never used in a game. ;)

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 7
From: The Phantom phantom023@*******.com
Subject: What is it about Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:17:33 GMT
>From: "abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com>

>So my question is this; what is it about Shadowrun that can keep us
>interested, that allows us to still have options for characters and places
>and campaigns, even after so many games and so many years of playing?
Because it allows me to sign up on this listserve and get all kinds of
e-mail, increases my already bloated sense of self-importance.

Okay, that was the flippant answer, now here's a pseudo-real one:
It's the mood. It's the style. All things that have been said, and will be
said are true, but for this gamer: It all boils down to mood. The familiar
setting couple unfamiliar details. The same problems and circumstances,
with a new flair to them. It's taking the mundane, and adding some spice.
About three tons of cayenne pepper to be precise. It's the dark and rainy
streets of Seattle. It's the seething streets of Chicago. It's the
separtists and the tree-huggers. En force. It's everything we already
know, yet unrecognizable.

It's a bunch of sentence fragments.

It's all about mood and style.

It's all about sounding like a crappy commercial. Something made by Calvin
Klien. Or at least, that's what this ended up sounding like.

Just a few thoughts,
Phantom-stark raving sane


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Phantom~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A decker with a shotgun beats four aces anyday."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Message no. 8
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: What is it about Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:35:12 -0400 (EDT)
"abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com> writes:
> So my question is this; what is it about Shadowrun that can keep us
> interested, that allows us to still have options for characters and places
> and campaigns, even after so many games and so many years of playing?

The answer is easy for me. Like a few other games (RIFTS and
custom GURPS campaigns), it is very cross-genre. You can take just
about any idea and introduce it to a SR campaign, and it will fit into
canon SR if it's not overwhelmingly powerful. (Verjigorm, for
example, or a Chtorran invasion.) Unlike the other games, it has a
central theme, near future/cyberpunk, to hold it together. cp also
happens to be my favorite genre. :)

I don't know of too many other games which have both a firm
grounding in reality, and the ability to introduce almost any element
from fantasy or near-future science fiction. White Wolf's Mage
actually comes reasonably close, but is populated by too much
supernatural for my tastes. However, every campaign concept that I've
had except for space opera, and every character concept that I've had,
I've been able to create using the SR rules and fit it into the
background.

Mark
Message no. 9
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: What is it about Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:40:16 EDT
In a message dated 4/19/00 8:28:36 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:

>
> So my question is this; what is it about Shadowrun that can keep us
> interested, that allows us to still have options for characters and places
> and campaigns, even after so many games and so many years of playing?

A simple and incredibly vague answer (so befitting of my reputation) is
simply this.

Look in the Mirror.

A bit of detail. How many variations of our world, ourselves even, can we
put into the mechanic? No other game system has "Our World" so heavily and
yet so distally ingrained into it's mechanic.

And also, the game has, at least IMO, the ability built into it to make us
*think* more than the majority of other game systems out there. It's part of
the mechanic as well as the fantasy. We're *thinking* beings, at least, for
the most part we are (we all have to act rash and impulsive from time to time
;).

That's part of my opinion anyway. (shrug)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 10
From: Zebulin L. Magby zebulingod@*****.com
Subject: What is it about Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:54:46 -0700
Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU> wrote:
>
> The answer is easy for me. Like a few other games (RIFTS and
> custom GURPS campaigns), it is very cross-genre. You can take just
> about any idea and introduce it to a SR campaign, and it will fit into
> canon SR if it's not overwhelmingly powerful. (Verjigorm, for
> example, or a Chtorran invasion.)
>

You know, I was trying to remember what those books were called (with the
Chtorr) the other day. thank you so very much! On an aside, if anyone knows
where I can get ahold of these books, please email me privately as the usual
places seem to be out of stock.)

-Zebulin-Magby-
ICQ: 21932827
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++


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Message no. 11
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: What is it about Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:57:54 EDT
In a message dated 4/19/2000 6:28:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:

> So my question is this; what is it about Shadowrun that can keep us
> interested, that allows us to still have options for characters and places
> and campaigns, even after so many games and so many years of playing?

The very fact that you mentioned in your post. Because the system is close
enough to present day reality, it gives one a good base from which to work.
Everyone knows basicly what it looks like inside a generic McBarfles, Kwikie
Mart, Etc... You have a lot of material to draw from, which makes it just
that much easier for your imagination to fill in the details where it doesnt
mesh with reality.

Its so much easier, especially now with the 3rd ed char gen system to help
flesh out a personality because of the manditory background skills. And the
ability to create 'living breathing people' is what makes any rpg
interesting. After all, who hasnt gotten tired of D&D type games which come
down to Kick down the door, kill the monster, rescue the princes and loot the
treasure?

That's what I like most about Shadowrun, and why the only reason I'll ever
stop playing it is because I cant find anyone to play it with... and given
the expansion of PBEM games, I dont see that happening any time soon... At
least not until arthritis finally cripples my fingers so badly I cant type,
and by then I fully expect people to have developed real voice recognition
technology :)

--
Starrngr -- Ranger HQ
HTTP://home.talkcity.com/TheSanitarium/Da_Muck/

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they
call you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 12
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: What is it about Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 02:59:21 +0300
abortion_engine wrote:

> So my question is this; what is it about Shadowrun that can keep us
> interested, that allows us to still have options for characters and places
> and campaigns, even after so many games and so many years of playing?

A)Dynamism
B)Realism
C)Game system Consistency

It is based on our world, so it utilises all its parameters (with a
beautiful twist of course) so it is easily understanable and one can not
only delve into the zillion adventure ideas but create many of his own
and integrate them in a very realistic campaign.
It is evolving as we speak and we are part of it. the sixty year gap,
the novels and the timed supplements make it more real and more dynamic.
It is the most balanced and consistent game system I have encountered in
my 11 years of extensive roleplaying.

The Wiz

Thanks FASA!!!

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