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Message no. 1
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:38:43 -0400
OK, I've done off-the-shelf decks for some time, but now I want to try
my hand at a hand-made deck. The good new is that I have a million
nuyen to blow, and the GM has given me thumbs-up on "the sky's the
limit" suggestion for MPCP Ratings. So I went out and bought Virtual
Realities 2.0 with a character concept of a decker living an Ares
Roadmaster using an onboard satlink interface (with appropriate
shops).

Now, I'm not that bad at math: I know my algebra (which is all I want
to know, as math is not my best subject), but this "how-to" section is
a mathematical nightmare for me, seconded only to the Rigger Black
Books. I have the basic gear down, but I have no idea what they're
talking about when they say PF (Program Factor). What exactly is a
Program Factor? What's the limit on Hardening? Can the nuyen costs
of the MPCP be simplified? And will the DYI method save me more cash
than actually doing out and buying a deck? What's the nastiest deck
that can be made for under 800,000?

-----
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Class of '99:

Do not gun down your high school. If I could offer you
only one tip for the future, not gunning down your high
school would be it. The long-term benefits of not gunning
down your high school have been proved by scientists,
whereas the rest of my advice has no basis and is no
reliable than my own meandering experience. I will
dispense this advice now...

Angelkiller 404

http://www.mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/
http://www.gibbed.com/parasiteve/

ICQ: 2157053
Message no. 2
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:30:33 -0500
:OK, I've done off-the-shelf decks for some time, but now I want to try
:my hand at a hand-made deck. The good new is that I have a million
:nuyen to blow, and the GM has given me thumbs-up on "the sky's the
:limit" suggestion for MPCP Ratings. So I went out and bought Virtual
:Realities 2.0 with a character concept of a decker living an Ares
:Roadmaster using an onboard satlink interface (with appropriate
:shops).


That vehicle might chew up more cash than you think.

:What exactly is a Program Factor?

Its the number you multiply the proram rating sqaured by to get program
size in MPs. For example, the persona attribute Body has a program
multiplier of 3, so a Body of 5 requires 25x3 (75) MPs worth of code.
Programs are priced per MP and programming takes an amount of time depending
on program size, so this is important.

:What's the limit on Hardening?

There doesn't apear to be one, but how much can you afford? Besides,
once you need hardening, you've messed up so bad, you might as well log off.
In any case, it probably can't be higher than MPCP.

:Can the nuyen costs of the MPCP be simplified?

Not really, since the deck components table is about as simple as it gets.

:And will the DYI method save me more cash than actually doing out and
buying a deck?

I don't think so, but I like the DIY method, since totaling up the program
costs is usually very easy, and then you just have to figure out some
materials costs based on the coponant program sizes (hint- figure out how
much of what componants you need, total that, then find the price). But the
prices should be thje same, unless you actually program and burn your own
componants- that will save money, obviously. One thing you could do in
either case is leave out some componants you don't really need, or buy them
at lower ratings and then make your own later and upgrade your deck. The
ICCM Biofeadback filter and higher response increases are not so crucial
that you need them to start and can't build them yourself.

What's the nastiest deck that can be made for under 800,000?

In general, I'd go for a deck that cuts evrything to the bone in favor
of high MPCP, if given the option of taking that as high as can be afforded.
Then get the best Sleaze and Masking your deck will run, and go around in
Stelth mode. With that money, You should be able to get your Detection
factor up to 11 if you do this right (and have some cash left for
utilities); the system won't know you are there, much less attack you. This
doesn't help you kill stuff in the matrix, but you might never have to.
Watch out for datbombs and the like, of course, since they will react to
your actions no matter how well you are concealed. Just a thought. I'd
also probabaly dump at least as much money into utilites as the deck itself.
I'm not sure it would work, but it seems like the smart way to go is to make
your job (sytems opperations) as easy as possible, and the systems job
(raising your securtiy tally) really hard.

Mongoose
Message no. 3
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:07:01 -0400 (EDT)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:38 PM 4/30/1999 -0400, Angelkiller 404 wrote:
>Now, I'm not that bad at math: I know my algebra (which is all I want
>to know, as math is not my best subject), but this "how-to" section
>is
>a mathematical nightmare for me, seconded only to the Rigger Black
>Books. I have the basic gear down, but I have no idea what they're
>talking about when they say PF (Program Factor). What exactly is a
>Program Factor?

You know, VR2.0 does have an Index. And Program Factor does happen to
be listed in that Index. :)

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

---------------------------------------------------
Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com
Message no. 4
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 00:18:34 +0200
> Mongoose [SMTP:m0ng005e@*********.com] writes:
>
>:OK, I've done off-the-shelf decks for some time, but now I
want to try
>:my hand at a hand-made deck. The good new is that I have a
million
>:nuyen to blow, and the GM has given me thumbs-up on "the sky's
the
>:limit" suggestion for MPCP Ratings. So I went out and bought
Virtual
>:Realities 2.0 with a character concept of a decker living an
Ares
>:Roadmaster using an onboard satlink interface (with
appropriate
>:shops).


> > That vehicle might chew up more cash than you think.
>
I have to agree on this one. One of my characters actually has
the setup mentioned above (breadboarded deck built-in in a Landrover
2046 vehicle and a satlink interface). Some things you have to consider
are investing in your vehicle, put armor, anti-theft,... on it. After
all it holds your complete household and existence. Being bound to your
car can be a disadvantage, even with a satlink, some systems are just
easier to access from the inside or some systems only have terminal
access from within the building. Advantages are that you can build a
pretty fast and high-performance deck although it isn' t portable
anymore.

>:What exactly is a Program Factor?

> Its the number you multiply the proram rating sqaured by to
get program
>size in MPs. For example, the persona attribute Body has a
program
>multiplier of 3, so a Body of 5 requires 25x3 (75) MPs worth of
code.
>Programs are priced per MP and programming takes an amount of
time depending
>on program size, so this is important.

(IMO) the Program Factor is a multiplier in the price formula
used for software or components with software. The PF is expressed in
nuyen and depends on the program rating (see VR2 pag. 89)

<snipping>

>What's the nastiest deck that can be made for under 800,000?

> In general, I'd go for a deck that cuts evrything to the
bone in favor
>of high MPCP, if given the option of taking that as high as can
be afforded.
>Then get the best Sleaze and Masking your deck will run, and go
around in
>Stelth mode. With that money, You should be able to get your
Detection
>factor up to 11 if you do this right (and have some cash left
for
>utilities); the system won't know you are there, much less
attack you. This
>doesn't help you kill stuff in the matrix, but you might never
have to.
>Watch out for datbombs and the like, of course, since they will
react to
>your actions no matter how well you are concealed. Just a
thought. I'd
>also probabaly dump at least as much money into utilites as the
deck itself.
>I'm not sure it would work, but it seems like the smart way to
go is to make
>your job (sytems opperations) as easy as possible, and the
systems job
>(raising your securtiy tally) really hard.

He's right, go for stealth, Masking and Sleaze are very
important get them as high as possible. Other useful stealth utilities
are camo and Cloak, perhaps armor to prolong the survival changes. Of
course you shouldn't neglect the regular operational utilities:
deception, analyze,...

>Mongoose

Hope this helps,
Sven :)
Message no. 5
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:52:40 -0500
: >:What exactly is a Program Factor?


<snip incorrect answer of "its the size multiplier>

: (IMO) the Program Factor is a multiplier in the price formula
:used for software or components with software. The PF is expressed in
:nuyen and depends on the program rating (see VR2 pag. 89)


DOH. And I even hualed out the book to check on something else!
Sheesh, you can't really even use pre-built decks without understanding
how much a program costs; how the heck do you play a decker without that?

Mongoose
Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 13:44:37 +0200
According to Angelkiller 404, at 15:38 on 30 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

> Now, I'm not that bad at math: I know my algebra (which is all I want
> to know, as math is not my best subject), but this "how-to" section is
> a mathematical nightmare for me, seconded only to the Rigger Black
> Books. I have the basic gear down, but I have no idea what they're
> talking about when they say PF (Program Factor). What exactly is a
> Program Factor?

Very simple: the Program Factor is something you get from the Program
Factors Table on page 89; basically, it's a way to reflect that higher-
rated programs take longer to write/are more expensive to buy.

> What's the limit on Hardening?

None. You could theoretically have a Hardening of 100 on your deck, if you
can make the necessary rolls (TN = Hardening) and have the money (which
will add up _really_ quickly for higher ratings).

> Can the nuyen costs of the MPCP be simplified?

For an off-the-shelf deck, or for the DIY cost? The latter is so easy I
doubt you could simplify it if you tried; the off-the-shelf cost formula
is also not something you can make much simpler -- just multiply the PF
(from the other table on page 89 :) by 8, add 195, and multiply by the
square of the MPCP rating. Basic math, if you ask me.

> And will the DYI method save me more cash than actually doing out and
> buying a deck?

Definitely. My decker built an MPCP-8/6/6/6/6 deck for about 50K. For an
off-the-shelf deck, the MPCP alone would cost 268,480 nuyen.

*digs through files* Ah, here we are:

CYBERDECK Software Cook Installation Cost
Time Time Time
MPCP: 8 86 12 16 12,480
Bod: 6 27 9 12 3,420
Evasion: 6 54 5 12 3,420
Masking: 6 36 9 6 2,700
Sensors: 6 36 5 12 2,700
Active: 500 - - 5 3,750
Storage: 1250 - - 2 3,000
ASIST: Hot 64 4 8 1,650
Hardening: 6 72 24 48 7,020
I/O: 50 - - 1 113
Response: 2 128 2 4 5,330
Casing: 3 - - - 5,000
Hitcher: 2 - - 1 500
Offline: 2000 - - 1 1,050
Vidscreen - - 1 100

Total time: 702 days
Total cost: 51,733 nuyen

Not an absolutely super deck, but not too shabby either.

> What's the nastiest deck that can be made for under 800,000?

No idea, as I've never really tried building the ultimate deck. If you
build a DIY deck, you should be able to make an absolutely KILLER deck for
that kind of money. (Oh yeah, but beware that you'll spend about as much
money on the software as you will on the actual deck, if you buy it off
the shelf.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's just the dust and diesel of passing time.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 14:41:53 -0500
On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:52:40 -0500 "Mongoose" <m0ng005e@*********.com>
writes:
>: >:What exactly is a Program Factor?
<SNIP>
>DOH. And I even hualed out the book to check on something else!
> Sheesh, you can't really even use pre-built decks without
understanding
>how much a program costs; how the heck do you play a decker without
that?

Play Otaku :P

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
Free IQ test: Press Ctrl+Alt+Delete

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Message no. 8
From: grahamdrew grahamdrew@*********.com
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 21:32:00 -0400
Angelkiller 404 wrote:
<snip stuff on how VR 2.0 = decking + math>

If you want to do it the quick way, get the Cyberdeck Calculator from
the archive. I think Gurth wrote it, and it makes things a lot simpler.

--
If a device is designed to do one thing really well, it can be
redesigned to do many things badly.
-Paranoia
Message no. 9
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 00:00:19 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Saturday, May 01, 1999 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question


According to Angelkiller 404, at 15:38 on 30 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

> Now, I'm not that bad at math: I know my algebra (which is all I
want
> to know, as math is not my best subject), but this "how-to" section
is
> a mathematical nightmare for me, seconded only to the Rigger Black
> Books. I have the basic gear down, but I have no idea what they're
> talking about when they say PF (Program Factor). What exactly is a
> Program Factor?

Very simple: the Program Factor is something you get from the Program
Factors Table on page 89; basically, it's a way to reflect that
higher-
rated programs take longer to write/are more expensive to buy.

> What's the limit on Hardening?

None. You could theoretically have a Hardening of 100 on your deck, if
you
can make the necessary rolls (TN = Hardening) and have the money
(which
will add up _really_ quickly for higher ratings).

> Can the nuyen costs of the MPCP be simplified?

For an off-the-shelf deck, or for the DIY cost? The latter is so easy
I
doubt you could simplify it if you tried; the off-the-shelf cost
formula
is also not something you can make much simpler -- just multiply the
PF
(from the other table on page 89 :) by 8, add 195, and multiply by the
square of the MPCP rating. Basic math, if you ask me.

> And will the DYI method save me more cash than actually doing out
and
> buying a deck?

Definitely. My decker built an MPCP-8/6/6/6/6 deck for about 50K. For
an
off-the-shelf deck, the MPCP alone would cost 268,480 nuyen.

*digs through files* Ah, here we are:

CYBERDECK Software Cook Installation Cost
Time Time Time
MPCP: 8 86 12 16 12,480
Bod: 6 27 9 12 3,420
Evasion: 6 54 5 12 3,420
Masking: 6 36 9 6 2,700
Sensors: 6 36 5 12 2,700
Active: 500 - - 5 3,750
Storage: 1250 - - 2 3,000
ASIST: Hot 64 4 8 1,650
Hardening: 6 72 24 48 7,020
I/O: 50 - - 1 113
Response: 2 128 2 4 5,330
Casing: 3 - - - 5,000
Hitcher: 2 - - 1 500
Offline: 2000 - - 1 1,050
Vidscreen - - 1 100

Total time: 702 days
Total cost: 51,733 nuyen

Not an absolutely super deck, but not too shabby either.

> What's the nastiest deck that can be made for under 800,000?

No idea, as I've never really tried building the ultimate deck. If you
build a DIY deck, you should be able to make an absolutely KILLER deck
for
that kind of money. (Oh yeah, but beware that you'll spend about as
much
money on the software as you will on the actual deck, if you buy it
off
the shelf.)


What the...? I noticed the low, low cost, but aren't you supposed to
calculate the cost of the chips as well?

Anyway, if ye be needing to see what I kicked up, check out...

http://mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/shadowrun/z-dhead.htm

Out of general principle, I added the hardware...was I *supposed* to
add the hardware?
Message no. 10
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:09:04 +0200
According to grahamdrew, at 21:32 on 1 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> If you want to do it the quick way, get the Cyberdeck Calculator from
> the archive. I think Gurth wrote it, and it makes things a lot simpler.

Http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/srprograms/deckcosts.html takes
you directly to a web page where you can download it. Much quicker than
searching the Archive :)

One snag is that it only does the calculations for an off-the-shelf deck.
I guess I should compile the version I have that calculates both OTS and
DIY costs and put that up for download...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's just the dust and diesel of passing time.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:09:04 +0200
According to Angelkiller 404, at 0:00 on 2 May 99, the word on
the street was...

[snip]

<GridSec>Next time you quote my mail, could you pelase snip the irrelevant
parts and add >'s in front of the quoted text? Thanks.</GridSec>

> What the...? I noticed the low, low cost, but aren't you supposed to
> calculate the cost of the chips as well?

I always figured those were included in the price of the parts. As in "OCC
@ program size." For an MPCP of 8, that works out like this:

OCC: 8^2 x 8 x 20 = 10,240 nuyen
PLC: 8^2 x 25 = 1,600 nuyen
DTC: 8^2 x 10 = 640 nuyen
Total: 12,480 nuyen

If you check the original post, you'll see that 12,480 nuyen is the cost I
listed for the MPCP of the deck.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's just the dust and diesel of passing time.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:36:56 -0500
> What the...? I noticed the low, low cost, but aren't you supposed to
> calculate the cost of the chips as well?

I always figured those were included in the price of the parts. As in "OCC
@ program size." For an MPCP of 8, that works out like this:

OCC: 8^2 x 8 x 20 = 10,240 nuyen
PLC: 8^2 x 25 = 1,600 nuyen
DTC: 8^2 x 10 = 640 nuyen
Total: 12,480 nuyen

If you check the original post, you'll see that 12,480 nuyen is the cost I
listed for the MPCP of the deck.


+++++++++++++++++++++

What Gurth isn't charging for is the cost of the code cooked into those
parts, because he's assuming you took game time and made rolls to write
those yourself, or otherwise acquired them for "free". Starting characters
can't do that (though, as I noted, they might make multiple decks with the
same code).
If you want "chips", you can buy bulk storage chips at prices per
Shadowbeat (or load it into offline storage, then remove that component)-
those are good for putting your programs on and stashing in safe places, so
you don't loose all the copies of your "warez" if (when?) the Star trashes
your pad an hauls you in. Level 2 contacts are good for that sort of thing,
since they will generally hold stuff for you.

Mongoose
Message no. 13
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:27:27 -0500
> If you want to do it the quick way, get the Cyberdeck Calculator from
> the archive. I think Gurth wrote it, and it makes things a lot simpler.

Http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/srprograms/deckcosts.html takes
you directly to a web page where you can download it. Much quicker than
searching the Archive :)

One snag is that it only does the calculations for an off-the-shelf deck.
I guess I should compile the version I have that calculates both OTS and
DIY costs and put that up for download...

Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mind you, for a starting character, the costs are the SAME, since (BTB)
you pay for all programs, even if you wrote them yourself and have the
source code.
One thing we do allow is for multiple pieces of hardware with the same
software cooked into them, at only the cost of one copy of the software plus
the various hardware circuits.
For example, I had a Decker character who had a breadboard deck and a
normal cyberdeck. The breadboard deck had a few components the normal one
did not, but both had the same MPCP, BEMS, Response, and other programs. In
fact, I had multiple circuits for both with versions of the MPCP cooked into
them; since you can change your MPCP's matrix appearance with minimal
programming, they looked different. Switching MPCP circuits frequently
would also provide some protection from worms.
Of course, this character also had 10 assorted chipcookers, and a PC
with 2500 mp of memory and a programming shop (for upgrading those honking
big smart frames)- he was more of a computer science school dropout
(goblinization will do that, doncha know, especially at Mitsuhama Technical
College) than a Shadowrunner. The damn gear lists took me about a week to
get nailed down, due to all the math and the literal pages of computer
programs.

Mongoose
Message no. 14
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:00:42 +0200
According to Mongoose, at 13:36 on 2 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> What Gurth isn't charging for is the cost of the code cooked into those
> parts, because he's assuming you took game time and made rolls to write
> those yourself

Precisely. The programs are factored into the Software Time on the table I
posted.

> or otherwise acquired them for "free". Starting characters can't do
> that

Could you share with us where you got this from? It's something I can't
remember ever reading...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's just the dust and diesel of passing time.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: grahamdrew grahamdrew@*********.com
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 23:11:35 -0400
Gurth wrote:
>
> According to Mongoose, at 13:36 on 2 May 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > What Gurth isn't charging for is the cost of the code cooked into those
> > parts, because he's assuming you took game time and made rolls to write
> > those yourself
>
> Precisely. The programs are factored into the Software Time on the table I
> posted.
>
> > or otherwise acquired them for "free". Starting characters can't do
> > that
>
> Could you share with us where you got this from? It's something I can't
> remember ever reading...

Well, I understand it perfectly. Resources are just that, resources.
It doesn't matter if something was given to you as a gift, etc. You
still subtract the cost from your resources. This falls under the same
principal: It doesn't matter if you made it yourself, it still has a
"value" of the a la carte decks, so you subtract that from your starting
resources.
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> It's just the dust and diesel of passing time.
> -> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> ->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
> -> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-
>
> GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
> PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

--
If a device is designed to do one thing really well, it can be
redesigned to do many things badly.
-Paranoia
Message no. 16
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:19:01 +0200
According to grahamdrew, at 23:11 on 2 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> Well, I understand it perfectly. Resources are just that, resources.
> It doesn't matter if something was given to you as a gift, etc. You
> still subtract the cost from your resources. This falls under the same
> principal: It doesn't matter if you made it yourself, it still has a
> "value" of the a la carte decks, so you subtract that from your starting
> resources.

I understand it, but I never really thought about it applying to the
software for deck components. It would suddenly make a cyberdeck a hell of
a lot more expensive, that's for sure.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Another year and then you'll be happy.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: Sean McGrath nafien@*******.com
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:53:09 +1000
----------
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: Re: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
> Date: Tuesday, 4 May 1999 19:19
>
> According to grahamdrew, at 23:11 on 2 May 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > Well, I understand it perfectly. Resources are just that, resources.
> > It doesn't matter if something was given to you as a gift, etc. You
> > still subtract the cost from your resources. This falls under the same
> > principal: It doesn't matter if you made it yourself, it still has a
> > "value" of the a la carte decks, so you subtract that from your
starting
> > resources.
>
> I understand it, but I never really thought about it applying to the
> software for deck components. It would suddenly make a cyberdeck a hell
of
> a lot more expensive, that's for sure.
>

Well yuh! But still the same cost as before the VR2.0 deck creation rules
came out, yes?

I can just see it though; Deckers starting with homemade decks, Shamans
enchanting their own Foci, Adepts hammering out their own Katanas, Riggers
building their own cars, Samurai assembling the nanites to make their own
Wired Reflexes.

Now that's a funny mental picture: a muscle bound Ork with an SMG slung
across is back, hunkered over an electron microscope and waving his
VR-glove clad hands in the air .... hehehe .... that isn't funny is it?
Nope. It's late isn't it? Yup. Go to bed now Sean. Okay.

- Scam
Message no. 18
From: Sean McGrath nafien@*******.com
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:30:49 +1000
> > What Gurth isn't charging for is the cost of the code cooked into
those
> > parts, because he's assuming you took game time and made rolls to write
> > those yourself
>
> Precisely. The programs are factored into the Software Time on the table
I
> posted.
>
> > or otherwise acquired them for "free". Starting characters can't do
> > that
>
> Could you share with us where you got this from? It's something I can't
> remember ever reading...
>

Well it only makes sense Mr. Gurth. Starting characters really shouldn't
be allowed to cut that big a chunk of starting gear cost off of their decks
and software just by saying; "Oh, I wrote all my code, cooked all my chips
myself, kay? So my homemade Fairlight works out at around 100,000¥ ....
shweet!"

That's grossly unfair to any non deckers, even if you make the player make
all the rolls for the coding and cooking tests etc.

Unless of course you apply SOTA advancement rules.

Given the stats you previously posted for deck creation; it took 23 months
to build, and that doesn't include the coding time for utilities.

I'm not sure that it would still be worth making a DIY cyberdeck once 23
months worth of SOTA has been ripped out of it.

- Scam
Message no. 19
From: Sean McGrath nafien@*******.com
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:39:18 +1000
----------
> From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.com>
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: Re: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
> Date: Saturday, 1 May 1999 7:30
>
> :What's the limit on Hardening?
>
> There doesn't apear to be one, but how much can you afford? Besides,
> once you need hardening, you've messed up so bad, you might as well log
off.

Bokok?!?

Well, I suppose *technically* given the way the security sheaf system works
that's true. But to my mind that's akin to saying a Sammy doesn't need body
armour because as soon as the opposition get the chance to shoot back the
run is blown.

Besides, you might run into Mr. Corporate Decker loading Mr. Black Hammer
before you crank the security sheaf up high enuff to trigger Black IC ...
which I assume is what you're referring to.

*sigh* I wish my one of my players would play a decker ... just ONCE

- Scam.com
Message no. 20
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:36:44 +0200
According to Sean McGrath, at 22:30 on 4 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> Well it only makes sense Mr. Gurth.

You can drop the "Mr." :)

> That's grossly unfair to any non deckers, even if you make the player make
> all the rolls for the coding and cooking tests etc.

That's exactly what I do. The times quoted for my character aren't the
base times, they're what I ended up with after making all the necessary
rolls.

> Given the stats you previously posted for deck creation; it took 23 months
> to build, and that doesn't include the coding time for utilities.

Which were all bought. However, what I normally do is make the player pay
Lifestyle costs for the time spent building a deck.


From your other post:

> > I understand it, but I never really thought about it applying to the
> > software for deck components. It would suddenly make a cyberdeck a
> > hell of a lot more expensive, that's for sure.
> >
>
> Well yuh!

What do you mean by "Well yuh!"?

> But still the same cost as before the VR2.0 deck creation rules came
> out, yes?

I don't know, I never really compared the differences in deck cost between
editions. I wouldn't bet on them adding up to the same values, though,
whether you charge deckers for the software that goes into the components
or not.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Another year and then you'll be happy.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: B. Blackbarin BillT@*********.com
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:04:35 -0700
On 5/4/99 Gurth wrote:

> I understand it, but I never really thought about it applying to the
> software for deck components. It would suddenly make a cyberdeck a hell of
> a lot more expensive, that's for sure.

Ok, I've been following this thread, but I think I missed something. We
were talking about the PF cost in VR2.0 and Gurth's Cyberdeck Cost
Calculator (which I love BTW).

Gurth, I believe that you used the Cyberdeck component cost table from
the back of VR2, correct? That table is used when buying components from
a Deckmaster. The prices on this table include the Programing Factor,
which is the cost of the buying the software for the component already
compiled and burned in.

If you were going to build a deck by buying the parts and doing the
programming yourself, you would not pay the PF shown on that table and
the final cost would be LESS than the total shown in Gurth's Cyberdeck
Cost Calculator.

or am I completely off base?

------------------
.sig on .vacation
Message no. 22
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: What the heck...? Virtual Realities 2.0 question
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:50:38 +0200
According to B. Blackbarin, at 15:04 on 4 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> Gurth, I believe that you used the Cyberdeck component cost table from
> the back of VR2, correct? That table is used when buying components from
> a Deckmaster. The prices on this table include the Programing Factor,
> which is the cost of the buying the software for the component already
> compiled and burned in.

I think you are talking about the costs for an off-the-shelf (OTS)
cyberdeck, which is what my program calculates (these costs are on page 89
of VR 2.0). However, the thing that started this thread was the costs for
do-it-yourself (DIY) deck parts (pages 84-88, VR 2.0), for which I feel
you don't need to pay for the software that goes into them.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Another year and then you'll be happy.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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