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Message no. 1
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:56:20 -0400 (EDT)
I know this has come up in a bunch of other games, I'm curious to find out
what people's opinions of it are.

I've got a PC in my game who constantly summons and maintains six
elementals at all times. One round into combat he starts calling them in
and sending them out to attack targets.

What weaknesses are to this strategy that a GM could take advantage of?

Drew Curtis President DCR.NET (502)226-3376 Toll Free: (866)4DCRNET
Local Internet access: Frankfort Lawrenceburg Shelbyville Owenton
Louisville Lexington Versailles Nicholasville Midway Georgetown

http://www.fark.com: If it's not news, it's fark.
Message no. 2
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 12:04:23 -0700
At 14:56 10/16/00 -0400, Drew Curtis wrote:
>I've got a PC in my game who constantly summons and maintains six
>elementals at all times. One round into combat he starts calling them in
>and sending them out to attack targets.
>
>What weaknesses are to this strategy that a GM could take advantage of?

Let's see: it takes a complex action to call one out of astral space,
and a simple action to give one orders, and it has to stay within line
of sight or all its services are used up because it's on remote service.
If he wanders around with all the elementals in a posse around him,
that should be hideously expensive and stand out like a searchlight
to anyone watching, and if they're of any respectable force they're
probably illegal to have at his beck and call. If he doesn't do so,
the combat may be over by the time he's done conjuring them all up
and giving them orders. What does he do that's so effective? I suppose
you could always use smoke to cut off his line of sight... and if
he maltreats his elementals, they might start interpreting his orders
perversely...

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." %%
Message no. 3
From: Herc airwisp@******************.com
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:19:01 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Curtis" <dcurtis@***.net>


>
> I know this has come up in a bunch of other
games, I'm curious to find out
> what people's opinions of it are.
>
> I've got a PC in my game who constantly summons
and maintains six
> elementals at all times. One round into combat
he starts calling them in
> and sending them out to attack targets.
>
> What weaknesses are to this strategy that a GM
could take advantage of?

Hmmm ... a couple of tactics you could use ...

One ... have someone on the opposition attempt to
usurp control of the bound elementals.

Two ... the opposition also has bound elementals
and fracticide tactics are used ... bound
elementals of opposite types reduce the force of
the other elemental ... force reduced to 0 or less
means the elemental is disrupted ... should one be
of higher force than the other then the lower
force one is disrupted and the higher force one
has it's force reduced by the force of the other
one ...

Three ... the opposition have watcher hordes that
do nothing but attack anything in the astral ...
kobold tactics do work well in this case ...

Four ... the opposition has a great-form elemental
on the ready to use against the mage's elementals
...

Five ... since the mage has pulled in
reinforcements the background count will begin to
rise even faster ...

Six ... since he relies on the elementals ...
incorporate this into his rep ... eventually sec
forces will know that he uses them a lot and
relies on them a lot too ... this could lead to
shadowtalk about him relying too much on
elementals rather than his own skill to survive
runs ...

Seventh ... begin to raise the price of
conjuration materials ... this is going to begin
to cut into his expenses for summoning those
elementals all the time ... it will begin to be
very time consuming and karma intensive too ...
Message no. 4
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 15:15:50 -0400 (EDT)
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Max Rible wrote:

> Let's see: it takes a complex action to call one out of astral space,
> and a simple action to give one orders, and it has to stay within line
> of sight or all its services are used up because it's on remote service.
> If he wanders around with all the elementals in a posse around him,
> that should be hideously expensive and stand out like a searchlight
> to anyone watching, and if they're of any respectable force they're
> probably illegal to have at his beck and call. If he doesn't do so,
> the combat may be over by the time he's done conjuring them all up
> and giving them orders. What does he do that's so effective?
>
Sends six high powered elementals against one target. Even one would be
enough to cause someone trouble.

Exactly how much would it cost in nuyen to have 6 elementals on call at
any given time?

> I suppose
> you could always use smoke to cut off his line of sight... and if
> he maltreats his elementals, they might start interpreting his orders
> perversely...
>
I like that. Smoke grenade would do the trick.
Message no. 5
From: Keith Duthie psycho@*********.co.nz
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 08:19:34 +1300 (NZDT)
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Drew Curtis wrote:

> I've got a PC in my game who constantly summons and maintains six
> elementals at all times. One round into combat he starts calling them in
> and sending them out to attack targets.

That'll get expensive. Inflict penny ante fights on the group without
letting them know the opposition is insignificant. This should use up a
few services before the mage catches on. And even after ;-)

> What weaknesses are to this strategy that a GM could take advantage of?

Can you say exclusive complex action? I knew you could. So he can't
sustain any spells while he's calling elementals.

Also, enforce legality codes when appropriate.

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 6
From: Mark Shieh mshieh@**********.com
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 12:27:07 -0700
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:56:20 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.net>
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
> Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>
>
> I know this has come up in a bunch of other games, I'm
> curious to find out
> what people's opinions of it are.
>
> I've got a PC in my game who constantly summons and maintains six
> elementals at all times. One round into combat he starts
> calling them in
> and sending them out to attack targets.
>
> What weaknesses are to this strategy that a GM could take
> advantage of?

I always felt that elementals appeared next to the summoner when
called to service. That would put them in a good location for a
manaball by an astral mage. If they are force 6+ and hard to take out
with a single manaball, or you feel that it is unnecessarily harsh,
then the solution is to send multiple smaller encounters at the PCs.
You will either run the PC out of services and resources, or he will
learn to conserve his elementals. If the PC has the resources to
send six elementals at every combat, perhaps they have too much money.

For a one-shot solution, wait until a run has been successfully
completed with all PCs still able to participate, and them force them
on another run or story arc before they have time to rest. It takes
quite some time to resummon six elementals.

Mark
Message no. 7
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 15:37:40 -0400
> I've got a PC in my game who constantly summons and maintains six
> elementals at all times. One round into combat he starts calling them in
> and sending them out to attack targets.
>
> What weaknesses are to this strategy that a GM could take advantage of?

Knock the mage unconscious. Drugs are a good way to do this. At this point,
six elementals will attempt to go free at once. At least one of them will
probably succeed.

The prospect of six elementals seeking vengeance on me while I am
unconscious prevents me from ever wanting to summon more than one at a time.
Message no. 8
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 16:00:57 -0400
<Drew Curtis> I've got a PC in my game who constantly
summons and maintains six elementals at all times.
One round into combat he starts calling them in and
sending them out to attack targets...
</Drew Curtis>


<Wordman> Knock the mage unconscious. Drugs are a good
way to do this. At this point, six elementals will
attempt to go free at once. At least one of them will
probably succeed.

The prospect of six elementals seeking vengeance on me
while I am unconscious prevents me from ever wanting
to summon more than one at a time...
</Wordman>


Dear god that is an evil thought...

I have to say that a player who wants to play a character who depends on
spirits would be fine by me. While I can see how the math could get ugly
for the GM in this situation I don't think you have a real problem. Allow
his plans to work sometimes, but keep some of the suggestions the others
are giving here to occasionally foul up the mage. Be sure you don't make
it impossible for him at every turn (that just gets old), but let him know
that his strategy has faults.


My 0.02¥,
Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle
Message no. 9
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 15:18:15 -0500
From: "Keith Duthie" <psycho@*********.co.nz>
Subject: Re: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse


> On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Drew Curtis wrote:
>
> > I've got a PC in my game who constantly summons and maintains six
> > elementals at all times. One round into combat he starts calling them
in
> > and sending them out to attack targets.
>
> That'll get expensive. Inflict penny ante fights on the group without
> letting them know the opposition is insignificant. This should use up a
> few services before the mage catches on. And even after ;-)

This tactic is at least vaguely sound.

> > What weaknesses are to this strategy that a GM could take advantage of?
>
> Can you say exclusive complex action? I knew you could. So he can't
> sustain any spells while he's calling elementals.

Uhm... Calling or Conjuring??? I think I'd want some clarification before
you tried this one personally. Calling one from Remote Service is one
thing. Conjuring is another.

> Also, enforce legality codes when appropriate.

Oh yes, how interesting. And while you are at it, please also call forth a
few legality codes on all aspects of the game and discover how quickly you
will bog it down. Sure, it can be useful once in a while and should be.
But to use something like a legality code as a "balancing measure" of the
game.... sounds and smacks of excessive GM force IMO. If you use a legality
code on a being that is sitting in the metaplanes (and btw, is not directly
assensable while its on remote service in any direct form), you'd better be
going metaplanar yourself.

There are far better ways to do things like this. "Pack Mentality" with
regards to spirits is a big one. Another suggestion IMPO is to play some of
the heavier/tactically related video games that now exist (Homeworld,
Homeworld Cataclysm; Starcraft, etc..) and get used to thinking tactically
and intelligently instead of just having the spirits "go head to head in
battle".

Ample and intelligent usage of watcher for instance is far more flexible and
far more functional than constantly arguing up and around a few elementals
(there are no control contests with watchers for instance). Also, packs and
swarms of watchers (two or more lone star mages working in this tactic have
proved an absolutely pain in the ass for my players before) performing
distraction and engagement hit/runs upon a runner can cause problems enough.
You wind up with "friends in melee" modifiers, then "+1 per watcher"
modifiers due to distraction, etc.... the list goes on.

Hell, a non-initiate with some intelligence can take out a fairly well
graded mage. I know, I've done it myself on more than one occasion (NPC
mages against party mages).

And as for Mage with Possession.

Well, I can only say this much. When all else fails, start getting into
arguments over whom has rites to the body. Consider possibilities and all
the elements that are required to do possession in Shadowrun in the first
place. And even then, things like Warding Circles, Lodges, Hougan Houses,
and more create vastly interesting concepts.

Or how about some of that awaked ivy stuff??? The mage who keeps some
around the outside of his house just to keep out people/prying astral
snoopers....

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 10
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:13:37 -0700
At 15:15 10/16/00 -0400, Drew Curtis wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Max Rible wrote:
> > What does he do that's so effective?
>
>Sends six high powered elementals against one target. Even one would be
>enough to cause someone trouble.

Even if he's got an increased-reflexes spell on him, it has got to take
at least two combat turns to pull them all up, during which he can't
be ordering the elementals around and is, in general, not taking part
in the combat. If he's doing it before the battle, it's going to send
up a nice flare in astral space when he's pulling a stunt like that.
And if there are big wards between him and his target, the elementals
will have to fight them.

>Exactly how much would it cost in nuyen to have 6 elementals on call at
>any given time?

1000 nuyen per point of Force per elemental for ritual materials.
36,000 nuyen to keep a stable of 6 force 6 elementals. Make sure
he rolls for each and every one of them. If he uses karma to
deal with low rolls, make sure he doesn't get it back for a while.

If he does this often, that's a modus operandi that will get around
on the security gossip network. IIRC one force 6 fire elemental
and three force 2 water elementals get into a fray and nothing
emerges, do not roll, do not collect 200 nuyen. That'll annoy him.

There's also the fact that the guy must be going through lots of
elemental conjuration materials to do this. Have a talismonger
contact complain of someone shaking him down for information about
his customers... or just have a security team turn up at his next
meet with his talismonger and take him into custody. (Roleplay
out all contact meetings for a while. Give him a few regular
meets with the talismonger, make sure to drop in a few interesting
side notes that make it worth the roleplaying, maybe give a few
hints that people in suits and shades are beating up talismongers
for information... then when the group isn't having *everyone*
turn up for the meets, WHAM! he's captured, interrogated under
Mind Probe, implanted with a cortex bomb and tracking unit,
informed that he needs to tell them about every job he does,
or his head will explode, and then released...

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." %%
Message no. 11
From: Augustus shadowrun@********.net
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:33:16 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.org>

Tsk tsk tsk, somebody needs to read up on the magic section more...

> Let's see: it takes a complex action to call one out of astral space,

Actually, if they are the same type, they can all be summoned in a single
complex action (example: PC has 5 level 6 fire elementals, he needs 1
complex action to bring them all to him. if the same PC had 3 level 6 fire
elementals and 2 level 6 water elementals, he would need 2 complex actions
to summon them all)

> and it has to
stay within line
> of sight or all its services are used up because it's on remote service.

Actually, they don't need to be LOS, they have to stay within his radius of
control, that is equal to (Charisma+Magic)x10 meters.

Just wanted to clarify these 2 points.

Augustus
Message no. 12
From: Keith Duthie psycho@*********.co.nz
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:37:40 +1300 (NZDT)
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, NeoJudas wrote:

> From: "Keith Duthie" <psycho@*********.co.nz>
>
> > Can you say exclusive complex action? I knew you could. So he can't
> > sustain any spells while he's calling elementals.
>
> Uhm... Calling or Conjuring??? I think I'd want some clarification before
> you tried this one personally. Calling one from Remote Service is one
> thing. Conjuring is another.

Calling an elemental is an Exclusive Complex Action. Summoning elementals
is an Exclusive Action which takes (force) hours.

> > Also, enforce legality codes when appropriate.
>
> Oh yes, how interesting. And while you are at it, please also call forth a
> few legality codes on all aspects of the game and discover how quickly you
> will bog it down. Sure, it can be useful once in a while and should be.
> But to use something like a legality code as a "balancing measure" of the
> game.... sounds and smacks of excessive GM force IMO. If you use a legality
> code on a being that is sitting in the metaplanes (and btw, is not directly
> assensable while its on remote service in any direct form), you'd better be
> going metaplanar yourself.

Um, I said "when appropriate", and I meant "when appropriate". And an
appropriate time to enforce legality codes is when a LS mage sees you
surrounded by a group of high force elementals (the magical equivalent of
toting around a PAC down the main street).


Another thing to note is that astral signatures last for (force) hours
with both spells and spirits; this means that if the mage uses especially
high force spirits then he's leaving behind long-lasting astral evidence.

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 13
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 16:02:16 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Curtis" <dcurtis@***.net>

> I know this has come up in a bunch of other games, I'm curious to find out
> what people's opinions of it are.
>
> I've got a PC in my game who constantly summons and maintains six
> elementals at all times. One round into combat he starts calling them in
> and sending them out to attack targets.
>
> What weaknesses are to this strategy that a GM could take advantage of?

One fun option is to put up a ward. Sure, his elementals can break through
it with little more than a concerted fart, but even if wards don't alert
their creators when they're dropped, a watcher can be slaved to the task for
very little, or even a low-level sustaining focus for a custom spell that
sends a little message to the caster when the ward is broken. Sure, it
doesn't get rid of the elementals, but it does give you a reason that your
NPCs know to bring heavy magical back-up.
Message no. 14
From: Keith Duthie psycho@*********.co.nz
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:14:52 +1300 (NZDT)
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Augustus wrote:

> Even if the PC did something to keep summoning elementals in that time, he
> would have lost 6 or 7 services just from the 24hr lapse in time.

"This does not apply while a bound spirit is awaiting its master's call,
only when it is actually present." Top of page 187 SR3.

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 15
From: Wolfchild nathan.olsen@****.edu
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 19:03:04 -0500 (CDT)
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Mark Shieh wrote:

> I always felt that elementals appeared next to the summoner when
> called to service. That would put them in a good location for a
> manaball by an astral mage. If they are force 6+ and hard to take out
[snipper]

This brings up a question. If said mage has the maximum number of
elementals allowed for his Charisma attribute and all of them get
disrupted (NOT destroyed!) by a lucky Stunball spell, would he be able to
conjure ANY elementals for the next 28 days? Is it possible to dismiss an
elemental without calling it first from the metaplanes?


Wolfchild - "Life ain't easy for a troll named Sue."
--
"Quin tu istanc orationem hinc veterem atque|"Let us spend one day as
antiquam amoves?" -Plautus, Miles Gloriosus|deliberately as Nature. . .
--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--|and not be thrown off the
"There are nights when the wolves are silent|track by every nutshell and
and only the moon howls." -George Carlin |mosquito's wing that falls on
Wolfchild <nathan.olsen@*******.msus.edu> |the rails." -H.D.Thoreau
Message no. 16
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:14:23 -0700 (PDT)
> I know this has come up in a bunch of other games,
I'm curious to find out what people's opinions of it
are.
>
> I've got a PC in my game who constantly summons and
maintains six elementals at all times. One round into
combat he starts calling them in and sending them out
to attack targets.
>
> What weaknesses are to this strategy that a GM could
take advantage of?

1. Wave attacks. Have him call his spirits, fight off
the bad guys, send his spirits away, then send in
another wave. Eventually he'll run out of services.

2. Magic attack. Send adepts with killing hands and/or
weapon foci, shamans, and conjurers and mages with
elemental posses of their own.

3. Use the environment against him. If he's currently
got a bunch of fire elementals summoned, give them a
mission that'll involve underwater ops and must be
carried out within 24 hours (to prevent him dumping
fire elementals and summoning water ones). Take them
to sites with background count. Send them into space.
:)

4. Use the game world against him. He's been using
heaps of elementals in his runs? Then the cops might
be after him and will definitely have tactics to deal
with him when they catch up to him. Laws might be
introduced to deal with such things. If he gets lots
of his elementals wasted, future elementals might be
less willing to work with him and try to break away
etc.

Just off the top of my head. :)

*Doc' summons a force 10 air elemental to blow in his ear..."Mmmmm....kinky..."*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 17
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 19:21:50 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>

> 3. Use the environment against him. If he's currently
> got a bunch of fire elementals summoned, give them a
> mission that'll involve underwater ops and must be
> carried out within 24 hours (to prevent him dumping
> fire elementals and summoning water ones). Take them
> to sites with background count. Send them into space.
> :)

Or just have the fire alarms go off, setting off the sprinklers... or maybe
the foam... :-)
Message no. 18
From: Wagemage wagemage@**.rr.com
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:33:54 -0400
>I've got a PC in my game who constantly summons and maintains six
>elementals at all times. One round into combat he starts calling them in
>and sending them out to attack targets.
>
>What weaknesses are to this strategy that a GM could take advantage of?

I'll weigh in cause I think I've been in this game before. Before I
provide any suggestions and hopefully before you clamp down on the player
over this you need to be careful. This person sounds like a rules lawyer. I
could be wrong but I've played with 'em (haven't we all) and I was the
resident munchkin on call. Keep in mind you are about to enter a serious
power struggle. If they determine that you are using one particular tactic
to control the elemental use, they will either find a way around it or
change tactics. Let's just hope the new tactic is not worse than the first.

Ok haing said that I have a few ideas. Basically is comes down to playing
the NPCs intelligently. I tend to run low magic games where there isn't a
mage on call at every corp building. However in light of this ALL security
is trained to recognize and deal with mages, trained BY mages that is.

1. Run away. Yep. Get the hell out of dodge. No corp goon is gonna stand up
like an idiot against a 8 foot wall of flame. Screw that man. Also note that
by fire code all buildings must have fire extiguishers within about 30' of
any point in the building. The guards know where these are. of course this
is a fire only tactic, but hey it's an idea.

2. Shoot the mage! Who is that? The guy WITHOUT a MMG. Yep. Mages have a
penchant for wearing nifty identifying marks. Fetishes, runes in the
clothing, things like that. I forget the details of teh rule but there is a
roll a normal can make to detect magic use. Once you've pegged the mage, PEG
the mage.

3. LOS or lack thereof. A good comment. Goes hand in hand with run away.
Check out the Shadowrun military site
(http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/6866/index.html) for ideas on
small unit tatics and use them.

4. This may not work with the party but it's a house rule I use. Whenever a
spirit or elemental is summoned (not called upon, but sumMoned) I roll a D6
behind the screen.
6: Spirit is just thrilled to be here today. "What can I do for you oh
wizened master?"
5: Cordial - "What can I do for you?"
4-3: Indifferent - "Yes?"
2: Not particularly happy about it, but not disloyal. Might have a
little fun.. Loose interpretations of the orders. -"Oh great. What do YOU
want?"
1; Hostile - Spirit hates this guy. Will go out of his way to
misinterpret, twist, and corrupt any orders given to it. - "I DID conceal
you. I was standing right in front of you, there's no way that guard could
have seen you through that 7 foot wall of flames."
Careful with this one, at this point it could sound like a cop out.
Message no. 19
From: credstic credstic@******.net
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 18:30:19 -0600
>
>
>What weaknesses are to this strategy that a GM could take advantage of?

I would first ask myself as the GM, do you really need to stop what's going
on? Maybe it's ok for the player to do well in this fashion?

Straight from the wonderful books...Threats....There is a nasty spirit
(forgive me I can't remember name) that likes to suck the life out of
players after a lengthy courting session which involves giving the mage
better spells (perhaps easier ways to conjure), you'd have to suck up
getting the crap kicked out of you for a couple of sessions with his new
wonderful powers, but the end result is using the new powers basically
sucks life force (essence) and we all know what happens to wonderful mages
with lower essence.
Message no. 20
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 18:15:14 -0700 (PDT)
> > 3. Use the environment against him. If he's
currently got a bunch of fire elementals summoned,
give them a mission that'll involve underwater ops and
must be carried out within 24 hours (to prevent him
dumping fire elementals and summoning water ones).
Take them to sites with background count. Send them
into space. :)
>
> Or just have the fire alarms go off, setting off the
sprinklers... or maybe the foam... :-)

Bingo! (the wonder-dog...)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 21
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:00:09 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>

> > Or just have the fire alarms go off, setting off the
> sprinklers... or maybe the foam... :-)
>
> Bingo! (the wonder-dog...)

Can you imagine how annoyed the decker is going to be when suddenly he's
covered in foam while jacked in? Of course, no one's going to think to
clean it off the semi-conscious decker, so he's going to wake up with it
having partially dried on him... and it will _itch_...
Message no. 22
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:40:37 -0500
From: "Wolfchild" <nathan.olsen@****.edu>
Subject: RE: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse


> On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Mark Shieh wrote:
>
> > I always felt that elementals appeared next to the summoner when
> > called to service. That would put them in a good location for a
> > manaball by an astral mage. If they are force 6+ and hard to take out
> [snipper]
>
> This brings up a question. If said mage has the maximum number of
> elementals allowed for his Charisma attribute and all of them get
> disrupted (NOT destroyed!) by a lucky Stunball spell, would he be able to
> conjure ANY elementals for the next 28 days? Is it possible to dismiss an
> elemental without calling it first from the metaplanes?

First of all, I'd suggest not getting Free Spirits and Elementals mixed
up/backwards with regards to the 28 day thing. Secondly, yes, they can be
dismissed remotely as well, as long as an outstanding service was still
available by the magician in question.

BTW folks, just to point something out to everyone in question. Going to
sleep at night also means a character is unconscious, so there is a mild
inconsistency to that ruling with regards to "character being unconscious".
Yes, I do realize that it most likely means "against ones will" or "of
unnatural causes", but if you also realize that it *might* mean a service is
spent in order to have the elemental in question wait out the next period
until said magician is back in action, it would explain how a service is
used per 24 hours that an elemental is retained (short of karmic contracts
and the like).

Consider that in advance perhaps next time a magician is aware of the
potentially threatening situations they are going into next time...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 23
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:00:00 -0500
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.net>
writes:
>
> I know this has come up in a bunch of other games, I'm curious to
> find out
> what people's opinions of it are.
>
> I've got a PC in my game who constantly summons and maintains six
> elementals at all times. One round into combat he starts calling
> them in
> and sending them out to attack targets.
>
> What weaknesses are to this strategy that a GM could take advantage
> of?

Pit the PC against Wujens who summon Spirits of the Elements of elements
opposing the PC's elementals. :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 24
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 18:15:51 +1000
>I know this has come up in a bunch of other games, I'm curious to find out
>what people's opinions of it are.
>
>I've got a PC in my game who constantly summons and maintains six
>elementals at all times. One round into combat he starts calling them in
>and sending them out to attack targets.
>
>What weaknesses are to this strategy that a GM could take advantage of?

Buy Threats. Read the chapter on Tutor. Smile sweetly at your player. I'm
sure the rest will come naturally.

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://staff.dumpshock.com/jestyr *
Message no. 25
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:40:29 +0200
According to Drew Curtis, at 15:15 on 16 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

> Exactly how much would it cost in nuyen to have 6 elementals on call at
> any given time?

6000 nuyen per elemental, provided you've already got your library and
hermetic circle set up.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:40:29 +0200
According to Keith Duthie, at 8:19 on 17 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

> Also, enforce legality codes when appropriate.

Let's not forget that the PC is legally responsible for any action taken
by his elementals. If the elemental kills someone and the PC is arrested,
they'll charge the _PC_ with murder. And if your players aren't afraid of
the law, they need to be taught a lesson *GM grin*

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:40:29 +0200
According to Wolfchild, at 19:03 on 16 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

> This brings up a question. If said mage has the maximum number of
> elementals allowed for his Charisma attribute and all of them get
> disrupted (NOT destroyed!) by a lucky Stunball spell, would he be able to
> conjure ANY elementals for the next 28 days? Is it possible to dismiss an
> elemental without calling it first from the metaplanes?

Yes. See under Distruption on page 98 of MITS, where it says that if all
your elementals are disrupted, you need to release one first before you
can conjure a new one.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 28
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:26:54 -0500
From: "Lady Jestyr" <jestyr@*********.html.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 3:15 AM

> >What weaknesses are to this strategy that a GM could take advantage of?
>
> Buy Threats. Read the chapter on Tutor. Smile sweetly at your player. I'm
> sure the rest will come naturally.

You're vicious and cruel.

I like that in a person.

Patrick
Message no. 29
From: Wagemage wagemage@**.rr.com
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 20:07:25 -0400
>Buy Threats. Read the chapter on Tutor. Smile sweetly at your player. I'm
>sure the rest will come naturally.

Dear lord no! Never EVER smile at the player. Haven't you ever heard the
phrase, "When the GM smiles, it's already too late."?
You need to let him think it's all his idea. Get all irritated and act
like he's kinking your plans horribly. Then when Tutor has his hooks into
the poor slot, THEN smile sweetly. :)
Message no. 30
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: What to do: PC Mage w/spirit posse
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 17:13:49 -0700
At 20:07 10/20/00 -0400, Wagemage wrote:
> >Buy Threats. Read the chapter on Tutor. Smile sweetly at your player. I'm
> >sure the rest will come naturally.
>
> Dear lord no! Never EVER smile at the player. Haven't you ever heard the
>phrase, "When the GM smiles, it's already too late."?
> You need to let him think it's all his idea. Get all irritated and act
>like he's kinking your plans horribly. Then when Tutor has his hooks into
>the poor slot, THEN smile sweetly. :)

And if you want to make him think it's *all* his idea, give him a run
where he's supposed to steal the summoning ritual for Tutor and bring
it back to his Johnson. Want to bet he keeps a copy for himself? :-)

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." %%

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