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Message no. 1
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: When the tough go shopping
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 13:48:54 +1000
From a conversation at the office here, it occurred to me that a great
deal of the shopping done after 2050 would be done via virtual reality.

The advantages for the store owner are numerous; from not needing to
unpack her goods for display, to protection from theft, to reduced
insurance, etc. etc.

Now to make it accessible to the largest number of people, access via
induction helmet would be as common as allowing data jacks.

But best of all, this would be of enormous benefit to Runners. (Suddenly
you realise you need a Widget Mk VII, but you can't afford to actually
physically go shopping. So let your Avatar do the walking, and then
arrange a Courier...)

Yes?

luke
Message no. 2
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: When the tough go shopping
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 10:25:21 -0700
Shopping by Matrix sounds good for the people with SINs and jobs and all
that. Simply won't work for the other folk though. Too many records
necessary that a person in the shadows doesn't want and can't afford.

The shadow shops and flea market / bazaar / souk will remain with us, and
probably grow, in the next century. Places where people with uncertain
identification can sell goods with uncertain antecedents for spot cash.

Ivy
Message no. 3
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: When the tough go shopping
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 17:07:58 -0400
On Mon, 25 Jul 1994, Ivy Ryan wrote:

> The shadow shops and flea market / bazaar / souk will remain with us, and
> probably grow, in the next century. Places where people with uncertain
> identification can sell goods with uncertain antecedents for spot cash.

Here on the East Coast of the United States, especially during
the summer, can be found Hamfests. Originally for trading Ham radio
equipment, these have grown to the point where anything from the tiniest,
most common diode to a brand-new '486DX4/90 can be purchased. Basically
anything that could or should or did or might have any type of current
running through it, plus assorted related things, can be bought and sold
there -- lots of fun.
And from what I hear, the number of people has grown -- at the
bigger ones (like the two-day Hamfest outside of Baltimore, Maryland
every year), the crowds have almost doubled in the last five years.

/-----------------\
| J.D. Falk | All the world's indeed a stage
| jdfalk@****.com | And, damnit, I'm a stagehand.
\-----------------/
Message no. 4
From: Hamish Laws <h_laws@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: When the tough go shopping
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 13:49:23 +1000
>>From a conversation at the office here, it occurred to me that a great
>deal of the shopping done after 2050 would be done via virtual reality.
>
>The advantages for the store owner are numerous; from not needing to
>unpack her goods for display, to protection from theft, to reduced
>insurance, etc. etc.
>
>Now to make it accessible to the largest number of people, access via
>induction helmet would be as common as allowing data jacks.
>
>But best of all, this would be of enormous benefit to Runners. (Suddenly
>you realise you need a Widget Mk VII, but you can't afford to actually
>physically go shopping. So let your Avatar do the walking, and then
>arrange a Courier...)
>

Not if you have a hotshot decker after you.
Actually shopping via virtual reality would be far, far too easy to deckers
to milk for people to do it.

>Yes?
>
>luke


*************************************************
There has to be an optimist around here somewhere
*************************************************

Hamish Laws
Message no. 5
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: When the tough go shopping
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 14:42:13 +1000
Hamish Laws:

luke> From a conversation at the office here, it occurred to me that a great
luke> deal of the shopping done after 2050 would be done via virtual reality.

[...]

> Not if you have a hotshot decker after you.
> Actually shopping via virtual reality would be far, far too easy to deckers
> to milk for people to do it.

This is getting frustrating. Even the most uncontentious things...

Look. Provided EFT (Electronic Funds Transfer) works, then you can pay
for the goods you've browsed from the Matrix Global Shopping Mall.
I don't think I can say it clearer than that. And the payment can be COD,
if you like. If the deckers can milk this, then they can get in and alter
the printed brochures that gets dumped in your letter box. Or change the
store's stock list.

But so what? Either the goods are there, or they're not. And you either
pay for them, or you don't get them.

And if EFT is vulnerable to deckers, so is every financial transaction.
And the society portrayed in the Shadowrun world wouldn't function.

If you're letting your deckers get away with this sort of thing ...

luke
Message no. 6
From: Hamish Laws <h_laws@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: When the tough go shopping
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 17:36:28 +1000
>Hamish Laws:
>
>luke> From a conversation at the office here, it occurred to me that a great
>luke> deal of the shopping done after 2050 would be done via virtual reality.
>
>[...]
>
>> Not if you have a hotshot decker after you.
>> Actually shopping via virtual reality would be far, far too easy to deckers
>> to milk for people to do it.
>
>This is getting frustrating. Even the most uncontentious things...
>
>Look. Provided EFT (Electronic Funds Transfer) works, then you can pay
>for the goods you've browsed from the Matrix Global Shopping Mall.
>I don't think I can say it clearer than that. And the payment can be COD,
>if you like. If the deckers can milk this, then they can get in and alter
>the printed brochures that gets dumped in your letter box. Or change the
>store's stock list.
>
>But so what? Either the goods are there, or they're not. And you either
>pay for them, or you don't get them.
>
>And if EFT is vulnerable to deckers, so is every financial transaction.
>And the society portrayed in the Shadowrun world wouldn't function.
>
>If you're letting your deckers get away with this sort of thing ...
>
>luke

I have not GM'd shadowrun and will need a _lot_ more experience
playing it before I will consider doing so but I would feel that this is
far too open to decker manipulation and attack. A virtual reality shopping
experience would have to be lower security in the net than other forms of
transactions and would also allow a decker a fair chance of tracking your
transactions back to your physical body which would be nicely blind while
you are in the net.
See the first Shadowrun Trilogy for what FASA believes deckers can
do against even the best systems.


*************************************************
There has to be an optimist around here somewhere
*************************************************

Hamish Laws
Message no. 7
From: Eve Forward <ez019741@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: When the tough go shopping
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 04:39:52 -0700
>luke> From a conversation at the office here, it occurred to me that a great
>luke> deal of the shopping done after 2050 would be done via virtual reality.
>

Isn't this kind of "Net Shopping" the whole point of the various little
"ORDER HERE" graphix by each item in some of the sourcebooks? You know
the things I mean; with little "buttons" that have nuyen symbols and
"SALESPERSON" and stuff? Shadowtech and Street Samurai Catalogue have
them. I kinda assumed these meant that these two books were sorta
"net catalogues" for this stuff...
Message no. 8
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: When the tough go shopping
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 11:41:29 -0400
On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Eve Forward wrote:

> >luke> From a conversation at the office here, it occurred to me that a great
> >luke> deal of the shopping done after 2050 would be done via virtual reality.
>
> Isn't this kind of "Net Shopping" the whole point of the various little
> "ORDER HERE" graphix by each item in some of the sourcebooks? You know
> the things I mean; with little "buttons" that have nuyen symbols and
> "SALESPERSON" and stuff? Shadowtech and Street Samurai Catalogue have
> them. I kinda assumed these meant that these two books were sorta
> "net catalogues" for this stuff...
>
Yes, they are. In the game we're currently playing, there's also
a place called The Virtual Sportsman, which is the same kind o' thing
(except that one of the people we're trying to track down ordered one of
the rarer rifles from there.)
I'd tell you more about this gameworld, but the GM is currently
drooling on his girlfriend in order to get rid of her hiccups (no shit!),
so I'd better not bother him now.

"|s it a fear, fear of madness
0r some strange alchemy J.D. Falk
|s it a fear of fear itself <jdfalk@****.com>
| th|nk |'ll get deranged."
-Billy |dol
Message no. 9
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: When the tough go shopping
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 08:36:01 -0700
RE: HAMfests

That is a good example. Flea Markets are big out here, and Swap Meets too.

These are all parts of an economy that is becoming the only economy for a
lot of folks. Underground. Anybody really like paying ridiculous sales
taxes on things? People are finding more and more ways to evade those
things, and it'll just get more and more prevalent as the taxes and laws
get more restrictive.

Ivy
Message no. 10
From: Eve Forward <ez019741@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: When the tough go shopping
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 10:25:18 -0700
Ivy mentions:

>That is a good example. Flea Markets are big out here, and Swap Meets too.

One of the most interesting times we had in our game involved this massive
underground black-market/bazzar in the subway tunnels beneath Portland.
(I don't know if this is in the boks or if Adam made it up...) anyway,
it was all populated by trolls, orks, dwarves, humans, and other types
who were not all that welcome in the elven community above. After dealing
with snotty elves (and dzoo-noo-quoi, but that's another story) it was
such a great thing to find this place, shop, get medical care, and just
wander around. The main bazzar was in a big cavern, and the subway had
been repaired up to run around and acted as a transport/smaller store.
We had a great time, at least until the elves raided the place....
Message no. 11
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: When the tough go shopping
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 10:26:49 -0700
SRII, Netrunning, and reality

On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

> Hamish Laws:
>
> luke> From a conversation at the office here, it occurred to me that a great
> luke> deal of the shopping done after 2050 would be done via virtual reality.
>
> [...]
>
> > Not if you have a hotshot decker after you.
> > Actually shopping via virtual reality would be far, far too easy to deckers
> > to milk for people to do it.
>
> This is getting frustrating. Even the most uncontentious things...
>
> Look. Provided EFT (Electronic Funds Transfer) works, then you can pay
> for the goods you've browsed from the Matrix Global Shopping Mall.
> I don't think I can say it clearer than that. And the payment can be COD,
> if you like. If the deckers can milk this, then they can get in and alter
> the printed brochures that gets dumped in your letter box. Or change the
> store's stock list.

Well, actually Luke, unless the shop-by-email store has some fairly
ferocious IC they can... By the SRII rules. Very easily in fact.

> But so what? Either the goods are there, or they're not. And you either
> pay for them, or you don't get them.

Well, the classic is to hack into the sales dept's file system and list
something as paid for by Xandso and mark it to be delivered to an
address, then the hacker just picks it up there.

> And if EFT is vulnerable to deckers, so is every financial transaction.
> And the society portrayed in the Shadowrun world wouldn't function.

Y'know, this is one thing that bothers me about netrunning too. Sure
it's fun, sure it's cinematic, but is it real? Or is the Hardwired
computer system more likely. Or is it just that the IC should be
thicker? I tend to run RED 8 to 10 anyplace that money is manipulated
but I have a real good idea of decking cause I run one. Ic is cheaper
than major (Harlequin style) money siphons.

> If you're letting your deckers get away with this sort of thing ...

Hot IC is necessary to stop them, and then the wheel turns, and the
deckers get better... and turns...

Ivy
Message no. 12
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: When the tough go shopping
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 12:10:28 -0700
Yes, that is sort of what I thought of when I saw them too. In fact, in
my campaign you can (IN GAME PLAY ONLY) actually "dial up" and "order"
things from the manufacturers.

On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Eve Forward wrote:

> >luke> From a conversation at the office here, it occurred to me that a great
> >luke> deal of the shopping done after 2050 would be done via virtual reality.
> >
>
> Isn't this kind of "Net Shopping" the whole point of the various little
> "ORDER HERE" graphix by each item in some of the sourcebooks? You know
> the things I mean; with little "buttons" that have nuyen symbols and
> "SALESPERSON" and stuff? Shadowtech and Street Samurai Catalogue have
> them. I kinda assumed these meant that these two books were sorta
> "net catalogues" for this stuff...
>
With two criteria. You have to order with a Credstik, and you have to
either have a valid address (no, the barrens don't count) or you have to
pick the item up in person. Of course, when you pick up the item,
depending on what it is, you do have to show a SIN...

The places are Green for the ordering sections but the transaction
sections are RED. Generally 8 to 10. No black IC, but some real cute
(Lone Star) Trace stuff. Hard to bounce for spot nuYen.

None of my players use these things because the shadow markets are much
easier. There's one every day somewhere in the Puyallup Barrens near
Tarislar.

Ivy

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