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Message no. 1
From: George S Waksman gsw13@****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:32:59 -0400
In responding to the munchkin creation post, I had an interesting idea.

Now, firstly, I don't like munchkins, and as a GM they piss me off, but
here's
a better contest than the previous one:

Create a character with the highest possible initiative (dice and
reaction)
and describe how you did it.

Here are the rules:
No special house rules.
Stuff from SR3 based books only.
Infinite cash.
Any availability items.
Any grade cyber/bioware.
Any race/metavariant/etc. allowed for PCs.
As much karma as you want.
No items with rating higher than 6.

Those are the rules. I am mainly concerned with standard initiative, but
if you want to try for Matrix or Rigging or whatever who am I to stop
you.


/*
GSW13, Mr. Peabody, DL (Darklord) Satin, The God of Nothing, etc.

"War ist dien Hobo Feuer" <---- If my german is wrong correct me
*/
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Message no. 2
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 18:15:46 +1000
>In responding to the munchkin creation post, I had an interesting idea.
>
>Now, firstly, I don't like munchkins, and as a GM they piss me off, but
>here's
>a better contest than the previous one:
>
>Create a character with the highest possible initiative (dice and
>reaction)
>and describe how you did it.

It's been done - Gurth, cue the Elven Speed Samurai here... ;-)

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://staff.dumpshock.com/jestyr *
Message no. 3
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:40:29 +0200
According to Lady Jestyr, at 18:15 on 17 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

> >Create a character with the highest possible initiative (dice and reaction)
> >and describe how you did it.
>
> It's been done - Gurth, cue the Elven Speed Samurai here... ;-)

That was my first thought, too :)

However, the Elven Speed Sam was an SRII, pre-Cybertechnology, starting
character. Basically, he was the highest-initiative starting character
Martin Steffens and I managed to put together at the time; with the rules
set down for this "challenge" it's even easier because that million-nuyen
limit doesn't apply.

Off the top of my head, take a night one and stick 6 points into Quickness
and Intelligence, then add MBW-4, rating 6 reaction enhancers, enhanced
articulation, and level 4 muscle toner. Total Reaction: 7 + 8 + 6 + 1 + 2
= 23, with 5D6 initiative dice and two extra actions each turn. Yes,
this'll be a cyberzombie and suffering from biosystem overstress, but
those weren't mentioned as limitations on the character :)

I'm sure it's possible to go over this, but this took me maybe five
minutes to piece together, including looking in M&M to find the names of a
few items.

A greater challenge is this one: create the highest-initiative _starting_
character, using either the standard SR3 system or the building points
system. Use only gear from SR3-era, FASA-published Shadowrun rulebooks and
follow all normal character generation rules (e.g., no ratings over 6, no
availability over 8, put a maximum of 6 points into each attribute, and so
on).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 4
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 22:31:22 +1000
----- Original Message -----
From: "George S Waksman" <gsw13@****.com>
To: <ShadowRN@*********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 1:32 PM
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...


> In responding to the munchkin creation post, I had an interesting idea.
>
> Now, firstly, I don't like munchkins, and as a GM they piss me off, but
> here's
> a better contest than the previous one:
>
> Create a character with the highest possible initiative (dice and
> reaction)
> and describe how you did it.
>
> Here are the rules:
> No special house rules.
> Stuff from SR3 based books only.
> Infinite cash.
> Any availability items.
> Any grade cyber/bioware.
> Any race/metavariant/etc. allowed for PCs.
> As much karma as you want.
> No items with rating higher than 6.
>
> Those are the rules. I am mainly concerned with standard initiative, but
> if you want to try for Matrix or Rigging or whatever who am I to stop
> you.
>

First take a physad with improved reflexes lvl 3, then using that limitless
karma, initiate him a few thousand times, or buy a few thousand extra power
points and spend them on improved physical attribute, quickness.
That should do it.

Paul Collins


------------------------------------------------

-----For a single man in possetion of a good fortune must be in want of a
wife
-----Elizabeth Bennet
Message no. 5
From: Jean-François Major maje123@*******.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 07:34:36 EDT
>Off the top of my head, take a night one and stick 6 points into Quickness
>and Intelligence, then add MBW-4, rating 6 reaction enhancers, enhanced
>articulation, and level 4 muscle toner. Total Reaction: 7 + 8 + 6 + 1 + 2
>= 23, with 5D6 initiative dice and two extra actions each turn. Yes,
>this'll be a cyberzombie and suffering from biosystem overstress, but
>those weren't mentioned as limitations on the character :)

Move by Wire, Man and Machine p.30: "This system is not compatible with any
other Reaction or Initiative-enhancing cyber- or bioware."

So you could not add the 6 reaction enhancers.
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Message no. 6
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 07:02:11 -0500
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:32:59 -0400 George S Waksman <gsw13@****.com>
writes:
> In responding to the munchkin creation post, I had an interesting
> idea.
>
> Now, firstly, I don't like munchkins, and as a GM they piss me off,
> but
> here's
> a better contest than the previous one:
>
> Create a character with the highest possible initiative (dice and
> reaction)
> and describe how you did it.
<SNIP>
> Those are the rules. I am mainly concerned with standard initiative,
> but
> if you want to try for Matrix or Rigging or whatever who am I to
> stop
> you.
<SNIP>

With those (SNIPped) guidelines, there is no maximum matrix reaction. An
otaku, using submerssion, can acheive (theorettically) any level, time
permitting.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 7
From: Jean-François Major maje123@*******.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 07:59:41 EDT
>Here are the rules:
>No special house rules.
>Stuff from SR3 based books only.
>Infinite cash.
>Any availability items.
>Any grade cyber/bioware.
>Any race/metavariant/etc. allowed for PCs.
>As much karma as you want.
>No items with rating higher than 6.

Well, is we really can actually use "As much karma as we want", I'll have to
go with Paul Collins: make a night one physad (dropping 6 points in both
Quickness and Intelligence) with Improved Reflexes level3 and spend the rest
of your karma on "Improved Quickness", initiate him to impossible levels to
have A LOT of Magic Points, and add this...

Cyberware (Deltaware): Boosted Reflexes 3, 6 Reaction Enhancers, Muscle
Augmentation 4
Bioware (Cultured): Synaptic Accelerator 2, Muscle Toner 4, Cerebral Booster
2, Enhanced Articulation.

So, before we get into the whole "infinite karma calculation", that would
give us a character with:

-A Quickness score of 18 (6 base, +2 for being a night one, +4 for muscle
toner, +4 for muscle augmentation, +2 for Improved Quickness 2 (as a
starting character).

-An Intelligence score of 8 (6 base, +2 for Cerebral Booster 2)

-A Reaction score of 28 (Base 13, +1 Enhanced Articulation, +6 Reactions
Enhancers, +2 Boosted Reflexes 3, +6 Improved Reflexes 3)

-An Initiative of 28 + 8D6 (Base 1D6, +2D6 Boosted Reflexes 3, +2D6 Synaptic
Accelerator 2, +3D6 Improved Reflexes 3)

[I know all this cyberware/bioware would drop the Magic points to make
Improved Reflexes unusable, but remember that with the "as much karma as we
want", that's not a problem anymore: initiation sweet initiation]

So, that gives you an imcredibly boring and personality-less weird Night One
Physical Adept with a whooping 28 + 8D6 of Initiative, for a total of 8
possible Initiative Passes in one turn (and that is prior to the infinite
karma spent in Improved Quickness).

[sigh]. If anybody can pull it off worse than that, I'm impressed!

Jean-F. Major
Major2000@*******.com

Note for all us Muchkins-haters out there: Just see this as a puzzle, not as
the Shadowrun abberation it would be if someone actually created that kind
of character. The pill goes down easier.
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Message no. 8
From: Matt Bond MBOND@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:52:14 +0100
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jean-Franois Major [mailto:maje123@*******.com]
> Sent: 17 October 2000 12:35
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: Re: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
>
>
>
> >Off the top of my head, take a night one and stick 6 points
> into Quickness
> >and Intelligence, then add MBW-4, rating 6 reaction
> enhancers, enhanced
> >articulation, and level 4 muscle toner. Total Reaction: 7 +
> 8 + 6 + 1 + 2
> >= 23, with 5D6 initiative dice and two extra actions each turn. Yes,
> >this'll be a cyberzombie and suffering from biosystem overstress, but
> >those weren't mentioned as limitations on the character :)
>
> Move by Wire, Man and Machine p.30: "This system is not
> compatible with any
> other Reaction or Initiative-enhancing cyber- or bioware."
>
> So you could not add the 6 reaction enhancers.

Yeah, personally I'd go for Boosted Reflexes-3, Synaptic Accelerator-2,
Reaction enhancers-6

Matt
Message no. 9
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:55:08 +0200
Von Matt Bond :

<snip>

> Yeah, personally I'd go for Boosted Reflexes-3, Synaptic Accelerator-2,
> Reaction enhancers-6

IIRC, you can only use one "system" to get additional dice for
initiative.

Arclight
Message no. 10
From: Florian Schaetz (Irian) iryan@********.de
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:09:06 +0200
> > Yeah, personally I'd go for Boosted Reflexes-3, Synaptic
Accelerator-2,
> > Reaction enhancers-6
>
> IIRC, you can only use one "system" to get additional dice for
> initiative.

You can use boosted reflexes and Synaptic accelerator toegether.

Irian
Message no. 11
From: Matt Bond MBOND@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:20:14 +0100
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arclight [mailto:arclight@*********.de]
> Sent: 17 October 2000 14:55
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: RE: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
>
>
>
> Von Matt Bond :
>
> <snip>
>
> > Yeah, personally I'd go for Boosted Reflexes-3, Synaptic
> Accelerator-2,
> > Reaction enhancers-6
>
> IIRC, you can only use one "system" to get additional dice for
> initiative.
>
> Arclight

Oh! :-(

Do you have a reference, 'coz I thought SA says it is compatible with
BR...

Matt
Message no. 12
From: George S Waksman gsw13@****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:17:36 -0400
I guess I was slightly in error wtih the infinite karma bit, the intent
of that was not for PhysAds but rather for allowing maxed starting
skills.

Other than that, I could still make a starting character with better
initiative than what you've listed so far, but Matt Bond is working on
similar lines to myself, so keep them coming.

/*
GSW13, Mr. Peabody, DL (Darklord) Satin, The God of Nothing, etc.

"War ist dien Hobo Feuer" <---- If my german is wrong correct me
*/

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Message no. 13
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:44:33 +0200
Von Matt Bond :

<snip>

> > IIRC, you can only use one "system" to get additional dice for
> > initiative.
> >
> > Arclight
>
> Oh! :-(
>
> Do you have a reference, 'coz I thought SA says it is compatible with
> BR...

I looked it up, and you and Irian are both right. BR is
compatibel with SA. I always had this sentence in mind as a
fast and simple judgement, but forgot about the BR... reason
could be that I never thought about using them, the same for
my players...

Arclight
Message no. 14
From: Cole, Wade A. wcole@********.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:49:30 -0500
Von Matt Bond :

<snip>

> > IIRC, you can only use one "system" to get additional dice for
> > initiative.
> >
> > Arclight
>
> Oh! :-(
>
> Do you have a reference, 'coz I thought SA says it is compatible with
> BR...

I looked it up, and you and Irian are both right. BR is
compatibel with SA. I always had this sentence in mind as a
fast and simple judgement, but forgot about the BR... reason
could be that I never thought about using them, the same for
my players...

Arclight

-----Original Message-----
From: Arclight [mailto:arclight@*********.de]
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 10:45 AM
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Subject: RE: While we're on the topic of munchkins...

Finally, a reason to get Boosted Reflexes! :)

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Message no. 15
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:58:37 -0500
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: While we're on the topic of munchkins...


> > It's been done - Gurth, cue the Elven Speed Samurai here... ;-)
>
> That was my first thought, too :)

I'm not sure Elven was my first choice for some reason, but don't recall
why.

> However, the Elven Speed Sam was an SRII, pre-Cybertechnology, starting
> character. Basically, he was the highest-initiative starting character
> Martin Steffens and I managed to put together at the time; with the rules
> set down for this "challenge" it's even easier because that million-nuyen
> limit doesn't apply.

For some reason, I keep thinking that Mongoose (Seb Wiers) had something in
this range as well.

> Off the top of my head, take a night one and stick 6 points into Quickness
> and Intelligence, then add MBW-4, rating 6 reaction enhancers, enhanced
> articulation, and level 4 muscle toner. Total Reaction: 7 + 8 + 6 + 1 + 2
> = 23, with 5D6 initiative dice and two extra actions each turn. Yes,
> this'll be a cyberzombie and suffering from biosystem overstress, but
> those weren't mentioned as limitations on the character :)

And then choke back when you realize that MBW and Reaction Enhancers aren't
compatible. At least, it wasn't... and I don't recall it being so yet (or
lest our in-house heavy combat merc would have gone for them).

> A greater challenge is this one: create the highest-initiative _starting_
> character, using either the standard SR3 system or the building points
> system. Use only gear from SR3-era, FASA-published Shadowrun rulebooks and
> follow all normal character generation rules (e.g., no ratings over 6, no
> availability over 8, put a maximum of 6 points into each attribute, and so
> on).

Ah yes, the Challenge.... *that* is what will help determine a min-maxing
master...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 16
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:51:26 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "NeoJudas" <neojudas@******************.com>

> > A greater challenge is this one: create the highest-initiative
_starting_
> > character, using either the standard SR3 system or the building points
> > system. Use only gear from SR3-era, FASA-published Shadowrun rulebooks
and
> > follow all normal character generation rules (e.g., no ratings over 6,
no
> > availability over 8, put a maximum of 6 points into each attribute, and
so
> > on).
>
> Ah yes, the Challenge.... *that* is what will help determine a min-maxing
> master...

::chuckle:: How about a different kind of challenge, like coming up with a
reason a Kabbalist would run the shadows, without losing the ritual purity
important to his craft? His methods, abilities, etc. that lets him keep
both right with God and capable of being employed?
Message no. 17
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:05:59 -0500
From: "Jean-François Major" <maje123@*******.com>
Subject: Re: While we're on the topic of munchkins...


> >Here are the rules:
> >No special house rules.
> >Stuff from SR3 based books only.
> >Infinite cash.
> >Any availability items.
> >Any grade cyber/bioware.
> >Any race/metavariant/etc. allowed for PCs.
> >As much karma as you want.
> >No items with rating higher than 6.
>
> Well, is we really can actually use "As much karma as we want", I'll have
to
> go with Paul Collins: make a night one physad (dropping 6 points in both
> Quickness and Intelligence) with Improved Reflexes level3 and spend the
rest
> of your karma on "Improved Quickness", initiate him to impossible levels
to
> have A LOT of Magic Points, and add this...

<SNIP TO....>

> Bioware (Cultured): Synaptic Accelerator 2, Muscle Toner 4, Cerebral
Booster
> 2, Enhanced Articulation.

<....RIGHT HERE>

> [I know all this cyberware/bioware would drop the Magic points to make
> Improved Reflexes unusable, but remember that with the "as much karma as
we
> want", that's not a problem anymore: initiation sweet initiation]

Ah, but Initiation can NOT get rid of the loss of functional magic here, so
you are shafted. Also, please remember that there are only two initiative
dice boosters that work together in 3rd Edition. Synaptic Accelerator and
Boosted Reflexes (one bio, one cyber). Adept Improved Reflexes is not
compatible with any other others, and vice-versa.

> So, that gives you an imcredibly boring and personality-less weird Night
One
> Physical Adept with a whooping 28 + 8D6 of Initiative, for a total of 8
> possible Initiative Passes in one turn (and that is prior to the infinite
> karma spent in Improved Quickness).

And just to be nitpicky, it doesn't necessarily *have* to be
personality-less. That is up to the player ... not the numbers.
Message no. 18
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:02:55 +0200
According to Jean-François Major, at 7:34 on 17 Oct 00, the word on the
street was...

> Move by Wire, Man and Machine p.30: "This system is not compatible with any
> other Reaction or Initiative-enhancing cyber- or bioware."
>
> So you could not add the 6 reaction enhancers.

Lik I said, this was off the top of my head. The quick fix is to replace
it by wired reflexes 3 and get something like 22+4D6.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:02:55 +0200
According to Arclight, at 15:55 on 17 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

> > Yeah, personally I'd go for Boosted Reflexes-3, Synaptic Accelerator-2,
> > Reaction enhancers-6
>
> IIRC, you can only use one "system" to get additional dice for
> initiative.

The trouble is that it's not actually ever mentioned in the rules that
this is the case. Synaptic accelerators, for example, specifically forbidf
the MBW/synaptic accelerator and wired reflexes/synaptic accelerator
combinations, but not boosted reflexes/synaptic accelerator...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:02:55 +0200
According to NeoJudas, at 10:58 on 17 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

> > > It's been done - Gurth, cue the Elven Speed Samurai here... ;-)
> >
> > That was my first thought, too :)
>
> I'm not sure Elven was my first choice for some reason, but don't recall
> why.

Maybe because nowadays we've got night ones that get +2 initiative and
thus +1 Reaction. Back when this character was made, elves had the best
Quickness so that was the natural choice for a character geared totally
toward speed. We rolled dice (they rolled rather poorly, I might add) and
discovered he did the 100 meters in 4.something seconds by SRII rules...

> For some reason, I keep thinking that Mongoose (Seb Wiers) had something in
> this range as well.

You know, I think you might be right... I don't remember much more than
that, though :/

> And then choke back when you realize that MBW and Reaction Enhancers aren't
> compatible. At least, it wasn't... and I don't recall it being so yet (or
> lest our in-house heavy combat merc would have gone for them).

Yes, you are right on this one. I didn't look anything up, so it's an easy
mistake to make. Rule #1 of maxing out characters: look up _everything_ to
make sure it's all compatible :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: Lute, David dlute@********.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:19:53 -0400
Is this mentioned in the new Cyberware book?

I only have Cybertechnology and it says in the MBW that you can combine it
with the synaptic Accelerator if and only if they are both installed at the
same time. Don't have the book to look it up and quote it, but wondering if
that changed in Man and the Machine (whatever the new book is called)

D L
> dlute@*********.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gurth [SMTP:gurth@******.nl]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 3:03 PM
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: RE: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
>
> According to Arclight, at 15:55 on 17 Oct 00, the word on the street
> was...
>
> > > Yeah, personally I'd go for Boosted Reflexes-3, Synaptic
> Accelerator-2,
> > > Reaction enhancers-6
> >
> > IIRC, you can only use one "system" to get additional dice for
> > initiative.
>
> The trouble is that it's not actually ever mentioned in the rules that
> this is the case. Synaptic accelerators, for example, specifically forbidf
>
> the MBW/synaptic accelerator and wired reflexes/synaptic accelerator
> combinations, but not boosted reflexes/synaptic accelerator...
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> It was a warning shot that missed.
> -> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
> -> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
>
> GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
> PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
>
Message no. 22
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:04:01 -0500
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: RE: While we're on the topic of munchkins...


> > IIRC, you can only use one "system" to get additional dice for
> > initiative.
>
> The trouble is that it's not actually ever mentioned in the rules that
> this is the case. Synaptic accelerators, for example, specifically forbidf
> the MBW/synaptic accelerator and wired reflexes/synaptic accelerator
> combinations, but not boosted reflexes/synaptic accelerator...

Actually, it is mentioned somewhere, but its almost obscure. Something in
either the spellcasting sections or the adept abilities perhaps.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 23
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:39:15 -0700 (PDT)
> >Off the top of my head, take a night one and stick
6 points into Quickness and Intelligence, then add
MBW-4, rating 6 reaction enhancers, enhanced
articulation, and level 4 muscle toner. Total
Reaction: 7 + 8 + 6 + 1 + 2 = 23, with 5D6 initiative
dice and two extra actions each turn. Yes, this'll be
a cyberzombie and suffering from biosystem overstress,
but those weren't mentioned as limitations on the
character :)
>
> Move by Wire, Man and Machine p.30: "This system is
not compatible with any other Reaction or
Initiative-enhancing cyber- or bioware."
>
> So you could not add the 6 reaction enhancers.

Still, 17+5d6 isn't bad.

Btw, Gurth, off the top of my head, I think the best
answer to your challenge would be an adept. Dark
elven, with exceptional intelligence and quickness (if
you're allowing that) and maxed stats (Q 9, I 7).
Reaction 8, 7 if you're not allowing edges. Take
Increased Reflexes (or whatever it's called), level 3.
Initiative 14 or 13+4d6. Geas the power, so it only
costs 3.75 points (if my math is right). Then, with
your two "spare" points, buy 6 reaction enhancers. 19
or 20+4d6.

You could try with cyber, but you couldn't match that
with a starting character. To fit all the cyber in
required to match that without becoming a cyberzombie,
you'd be spending a lot more than a million.

Bitchin'.

;)

*Doc' hires the speed adept to go around catching
insects. "No flies on me!"*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 24
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:29:14 -0700 (PDT)
<snipt>
> So, that gives you an imcredibly boring and
personality-less weird Night One Physical Adept with a
whooping 28 + 8D6 of Initiative, for a total of 8
possible Initiative Passes in one turn (and that is
prior to the infinite karma spent in Improved
Quickness).
> Jean-F. Major

Hah.

All I'm going to say to this is..."mutually
exclusive".

Okay, here's another challenge. Make the FASTEST
starting character you can. Not the QUICKEST. The
FASTEST. i.e. the guy who can run at 90km/h. Using SR3
rules, of course.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 25
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:48:36 -0700 (PDT)
> > > Yeah, personally I'd go for Boosted Reflexes-3,
Synaptic Accelerator-2, Reaction enhancers-6
> >
> > IIRC, you can only use one "system" to get
additional dice for initiative.
>
> You can use boosted reflexes and Synaptic
accelerator toegether.
> Irian

Something I've always disputed - not because it's
against the rules (unfortunately it isn't), but
because it's a Bad Idea(TM).

Why? Because it gives you the functionality of really
high grade wired reflexes (plus extra enhancers), or
even Move-By-Wire, WITHOUT the drawbacks. Not only
that, it's a hell of a lot cheaper. If you want to be
that inhumanly fast, I think there should be drawbacks
to it. And there are, for the items that do that for
you by themselves. But there aren't for that combo.

That, IMNSHO, is a bad thing. I don't allow that combo
in my games. Even if I did, I would create drawbacks
to the combination (due to incompatibilities in the
systems etc.) and I'd suggest that anyone who allows
the combo do the same.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 26
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 18:44:57 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>

> Why? Because it gives you the functionality of really
> high grade wired reflexes (plus extra enhancers), or
> even Move-By-Wire, WITHOUT the drawbacks. Not only
> that, it's a hell of a lot cheaper. If you want to be
> that inhumanly fast, I think there should be drawbacks
> to it. And there are, for the items that do that for
> you by themselves. But there aren't for that combo.

Actually, I think a good drawback would be social modifiers. Remember, you
can't turn off Boosted Reflexes (chemical treatment) or synaptic enhancers
(genetic treatment). Ever have to be around someone who is hyper all the
time? Moving like lightning, talking at a high rate of speed, thinking way
too fast to ever really let anyone else understand? Annoying as Hel, isn't
it? And what's worse, is this guy won't realize he's hyper... its just that
his body is moving incredibly fast.
Message no. 27
From: Matthew Bond mgb@*****.swinternet.co.uk
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 01:10:54 +0100
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nexx" <nexx@********.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: While we're on the topic of munchkins...


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>
>
> > Why? Because it gives you the functionality of really
> > high grade wired reflexes (plus extra enhancers), or
> > even Move-By-Wire, WITHOUT the drawbacks. Not only
> > that, it's a hell of a lot cheaper. If you want to be
> > that inhumanly fast, I think there should be drawbacks
> > to it. And there are, for the items that do that for
> > you by themselves. But there aren't for that combo.
>
> Actually, I think a good drawback would be social modifiers.
Remember, you
> can't turn off Boosted Reflexes (chemical treatment) or synaptic
enhancers
> (genetic treatment). Ever have to be around someone who is hyper all
the
> time? Moving like lightning, talking at a high rate of speed,
thinking way
> too fast to ever really let anyone else understand? Annoying as Hel,
isn't
> it? And what's worse, is this guy won't realize he's hyper... its
just that
> his body is moving incredibly fast.

On top of that, you can have your MBW or WR *removed* if you need to, or
tire of them... no such luck with BR, that's a permanent treatment...

That said, Dice [my female Elven covert-ops/decker] has just been given
a nice present by Lofwyr (for aid rendered back in Parlainth... long
story...). Delta'ed BR-3 and SA-2!!! No longer will I be the last to act
in combat! (I *was* on 6+2d6 initiative, now it's 8+5d6 <g>)

Oh yeah...

I also got a new flaw. Unknown cyberwear...

Matt
Message no. 28
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:21:09 -0700 (PDT)
> > Why? Because it gives you the functionality of
really high grade wired reflexes (plus extra
enhancers), or even Move-By-Wire, WITHOUT the
drawbacks. Not only that, it's a hell of a lot
cheaper. If you want to be that inhumanly fast, I
think there should be drawbacks to it. And there are,
for the items that do that for you by themselves. But
there aren't for that combo.
>
> Actually, I think a good drawback would be social
modifiers. Remember, you can't turn off Boosted
Reflexes (chemical treatment) or synaptic enhancers
(genetic treatment). Ever have to be around someone
who is hyper all the time? Moving like lightning,
talking at a high rate of speed, thinking way too fast
to ever really let anyone else understand? Annoying
as Hel, isn't it? And what's worse, is this guy won't
realize he's hyper... its just that his body is moving
incredibly fast.

Sure...that's pretty much what I was thinking of...but
the rules don't support that. That cyberzombie gets
big penalties for having a really low essence AND
jacked reflexes. The BR/SA combo will give you
penalties for jacked reflexes, but the actual essence
loss is very slight (comparitively), so the penalties
are significantly less.

And anyway, most players that use something like that
aren't really going to be concerned with social penalties.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 29
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:21:40 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>

> And anyway, most players that use something like that
> aren't really going to be concerned with social penalties.

Like my younger brother's character in a ... let's say "rules lite" version
of Shadowrun, whose name was "The Weasel."
Message no. 30
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 20:23:13 -0500
>>> For some reason, I keep thinking that Mongoose (Seb Wiers) had something
in
> this range as well.

You know, I think you might be right... I don't remember much more than
that, though :/ >>>

Mongoose the PC was essentially a less extreme version of the elven speed
samurai, and an obvious case of parallel thinking. I would have been just
as happy with an ork, but the concept of a elf samurai apealed to me at the
time. Well, less extremely fast- his starting intiaitive was "only"
16+4d6- but still.... I mostly traded that last inch of speed for toughness
(body 5/6 plus platelet factory, plus that insane speed sam combat pool
under SR2 rules), some skillwires, and gear.
Thanks to the skillwires and a good amount of contacts, he was also not a
complete waste of oxegen once combat ended, but his primary job was still
mostly just making sure nobody in the groop got hurt to bad before they
could do the REAL job. His wired 3 got broken and were never fixed in game
play, but in his current (mostly theoretical) version, his initiative is
"only" 16+3d6. He may qualify as the slowest, cheapest cyberzombie in the
world, in fact.

-Mongoose / Sebastian Wiers
Message no. 31
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:08:06 -0700 (PDT)
> > And anyway, most players that use something like
that aren't really going to be concerned with social
penalties.
>
> Like my younger brother's character in a ... let's
say "rules lite" version of Shadowrun, whose name was
"The Weasel."

Wonder-Dog!!

:)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 32
From: Achille Autran aautran@****.fr
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 06:10:04 +0200
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:40:29 +0200

> A greater challenge is this one: create the highest-initiative
_starting_
> character, using either the standard SR3 system or the building points
> system. Use only gear from SR3-era, FASA-published Shadowrun rulebooks
and
> follow all normal character generation rules (e.g., no ratings over 6,
no
> availability over 8, put a maximum of 6 points into each attribute,
and so
> on).

Ah, long gone is the time when a tactical computer was the definite edge
in initiative contests...
Let's give a try at this little calculus problem:

With the points system (123 points)
Race: Night One (15 BP)
Physical Magician (30 BP)
1 000 000 ¥ (30 BP)

Edges: Bonus attribute point: Quickness (2 BP)
Adrenaline surge (2 BP)
Aptitude: spellcasting (4 BP)
Flaws: 6 BP of various flaws, mild allergy to sunlight

Base attributes (modified by edges and race): (36 BP)
Bod 1
Qui 9
Str 1
Cha 3
Int 5
Wil 4

Skills: (16 BP)
Sorcery (spellcasting): 5(7)
Conjuring (summoning): 3(5)

Cyberware:
Boosted reflexes 3 (beta)
Reaction enhancer 6
wich gives Essence: 2.5. Magic loss is counterweighted by four geasa.

Bioware:
Synaptic accelerator 2
Enhanced articulations
Suprathyroid
for Body Index: 3.0 and a virtual magic rating of 3.

Adept powers:
Increased physial attibutes: quickness 3
Magical power 3
1.5 power points remaining

Focus, Spells'n'Spirits:
Increase cybered attribute: quickness 1
Increase attribute: intelligence 6
Power 5 elemental bound with 3 services
2 health expendable spell foci rating 3
summoning material rating 1,3,4 and 6

5000 ¥ for lifestyle and various goods, including novacoke, cram,
kamikaze and jazz.

Now, with a summoned elemental at hand for sustaining purpose, a spell
focus used, sorcery aid and karma pool, we can reasonnbly expect to
achieve 12 successes against TN# 4 for Inc. intelligence (rolling 19
dices without karma) and 2 successes against TN# 10 for Inc. quickness.
That was before ingesting any drugs...
Eventually we get:
Base +Cyber/adept +Magic +Drugs
Body 1 2 2 3
Quickness 9 13 14 17
Strength 1 2 2 4
Charisma 3 3 3 4
Intellignce 5 5 11 11
Willpower 4 4 4 5
Essence 2.5
Magic 6(3)
Reaction 7 19 22 26
Init 1D6 5D6 5D6 8D6

Don't forget that, with the adrenaline surge edge, the rule of six is
applied to the initiative roll, upping dices average from 3.5 to 4.2.
Therefore, this stressed lot should roll about 26+8*4.2Y.6 on
initiative, when fully up. And stink, coz of the sweat and the fur,
ya know.

And remember, this is a STARTING character. :-) :-) :-)
Message no. 33
From: griffinhq@****.com griffinhq@****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:19:44 -0400
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:02:55 +0200 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
> According to Arclight, at 15:55 on 17 Oct 00, the word on the street
> was...
>
> The trouble is that it's not actually ever mentioned in the rules that
> this is the case. Synaptic accelerators, for example, specifically
forbidf
> the MBW/synaptic accelerator and wired reflexes/synaptic accelerator
> combinations, but not boosted reflexes/synaptic accelerator...
>
Or even worse: Boosted 3, Synaptic 2, Adrenal Pump 2.

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Message no. 34
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:37:28 -0700 (PDT)
<snipt!>
> Reaction 7 19 22
> 26
> Init 1D6 5D6 5D6
> 8D6
>
> Don't forget that, with the adrenaline surge edge,
the rule of six is applied to the initiative roll,
upping dices average from 3.5 to 4.2. Therefore, this
stressed lot should roll about 26+8*4.2Y.6 on
initiative, when fully up. And stink, coz of the sweat
and the fur, ya know.

*sigh*

1. A lot of these items are exclusive.
2. What happened to the points you should have lost
from the bioware?
3. Adenaline surge is NOT compatible with ANY reaction
increasing tech or magic.

C'mon, guys, read the rules, huh?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 35
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:55:24 -0500
From: Achille Autran <aautran@****.fr>
<snip>
:Now, with a summoned elemental at hand for sustaining purpose,

Just which elemental again is it that can sustain health spells? Maybe the
crack elemental? ;-)

:Don't forget that, with the adrenaline surge edge, the rule of six is
:applied to the initiative roll, upping dices average from 3.5 to 4.2.

The adreanline surge edge is also negated if you do anything to ad extra
intiative dice beyond the normal 1d6, iirc. Not really useful for munchkin
level speed, at least not in this case. It WAS useful under the old
tactical computer rules, but I don;t really see it figuring into this little
numbers game under M&M or SR3 rules.

-Mongoose
Message no. 36
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:59:00 -0500
: Or even worse: Boosted 3, Synaptic 2, Adrenal Pump 2.

Oh yeah, I'm real scared of a guy who, if I can hide for 20 seconds, is
gonna keel over on his own...

-Mongoose
Message no. 37
From: griffinhq@****.com griffinhq@****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 02:25:07 -0400
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:59:00 -0500 "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*****.com>
writes:
>
> : Or even worse: Boosted 3, Synaptic 2, Adrenal Pump 2.
>
> Oh yeah, I'm real scared of a guy who, if I can hide for 20 seconds,
> is gonna keel over on his own...
>
The key phrase there is "if"

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Message no. 38
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 02:25:35 -0500
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Okay, here's another challenge. Make the FASTEST
> starting character you can. Not the QUICKEST. The
> FASTEST. i.e. the guy who can run at 90km/h. Using SR3
> rules, of course.

A Nightone Path of the mage (shaman) adept who summons spirits to use
their movement power. With the exceptional attribute edge, you can get a
fairly obscene Quickness (~14) and Athletics (Running Specialization)
skill (11 dice). You might want to install a trauma damper to help with
resisting the drain on those high-force spirits, but let's leave it out
to keep his Magic at 5. There are probably a few other enhancements, like
cyberskates that could further boost Speedy, but I would reccomend
avoiding Enhanced Atrictulation. Extended Volume and that heart mod
(forgot the name) might be worthwile, however. You could also scarifice
another point of magic to make the character a ghoul. Aside from that,
voila. :)

Epa! Epa! Ondale! Ondale! ~(o:B

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 39
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 02:33:56 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alfredo B Alves" <dghost@****.com>
Subject: Re: While we're on the topic of munchkins...


> > Okay, here's another challenge. Make the FASTEST
> > starting character you can. Not the QUICKEST. The
> > FASTEST. i.e. the guy who can run at 90km/h. Using SR3
> > rules, of course.
>
> A Nightone Path of the mage (shaman) adept who summons spirits to use
> their movement power. With the exceptional attribute edge, you can get a
> fairly obscene Quickness (~14) and Athletics (Running Specialization)
> skill (11 dice). You might want to install a trauma damper to help with
> resisting the drain on those high-force spirits, but let's leave it out
> to keep his Magic at 5. There are probably a few other enhancements, like
> cyberskates that could further boost Speedy, but I would reccomend
> avoiding Enhanced Atrictulation. Extended Volume and that heart mod
> (forgot the name) might be worthwile, however. You could also scarifice
> another point of magic to make the character a ghoul. Aside from that,
> voila. :)

Actually, doesn't the shamans of Horse totem still get that nifty movement
power without the aid of spirits???

Totally skip out the bioware, with the *possible* exception of Muscle Toner.
Wanna get twisted, go for digitigrade/"Kid Stealth" legs and a geasa or two
in order to offset the cybernetic penalties.

Just for grins $hit$ and giggles... were he a Path of the Mage adept, he
could then also apply Enhanced Centering (were initiation possible) to their
athletics related tests.

Don't know, it can be fun to see what the rules can make I suppose, but not
as much fun without some kind of personality to balance it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)


>
> Epa! Epa! Ondale! Ondale! ~(o:B
>
> --
> D. Ghost
> Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
> - Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
>
>
Message no. 40
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:21:34 +0200
According to Lute, David, at 15:19 on 17 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

David, please put your replies below the text you quote, and trim the
quoted message. Thanks.

> I only have Cybertechnology and it says in the MBW that you can combine it
> with the synaptic Accelerator if and only if they are both installed at the
> same time. Don't have the book to look it up and quote it, but wondering if
> that changed in Man and the Machine (whatever the new book is called)

The thing here is that Cybertechnology specifically allowed the
combination, while Man & Machine specifically forbids it... I don't know
why this was done, but I'm guessing it was because FASA felt the
initiative bonus could get too high; however, I doubt many characters will
have the money for it, so quite what the real problem was, beats me.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 41
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:21:34 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 16:39 on 17 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

> Still, 17+5d6 isn't bad.

18+5D6 to be precise -- I made a little mistake by forgetting to include
the Reaction bonus that night ones get.

> Btw, Gurth, off the top of my head, I think the best
> answer to your challenge would be an adept.
[snip]
> Then, with your two "spare" points, buy 6 reaction enhancers. 19 or
> 20+4d6.

Sounds good.

> You could try with cyber, but you couldn't match that
> with a starting character. To fit all the cyber in
> required to match that without becoming a cyberzombie,
> you'd be spending a lot more than a million.

Let's run the numbers:

Item Reaction Initiative Nuyen Essence Bio
Quickness 8 } 7 1D6
Intelligence 6}
Wired Reflexes 3 +6 +3D6 500,000 5
Reaction Enhancer 3 +3 180,000 .9
Muscle Toner 4 +2 100,000 1.6
Enh. Articulation +1 60,000 .6
Suprathyroid Gland +1 50,000 1.4
Cerebral Booster 2 +1 110,000 .8

Totals: 21 +4D6 1,000,000 5.9 4.4

Yes, bioware overstress will definitely apply here :) But by taking the
Exceptional Attribute edge for both Quickness and Intelligence we can add
another +1 to make it 22+4D6.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 42
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:21:34 +0200
According to Sebastian Wiers, at 23:59 on 17 Oct 00, the word on the
street was...

> : Or even worse: Boosted 3, Synaptic 2, Adrenal Pump 2.
>
> Oh yeah, I'm real scared of a guy who, if I can hide for 20 seconds, is
> gonna keel over on his own...

Agreed... Back when SR2 was fairly new, I had a character with an adrenal
pump level 1, and eventually had it removed because I realized that every
time my character got even a light wound, I kept hoping that I succeeded
at the Willpower test to keep the pump switched off... Sure, it gives a
boost, but the "Drain" is far too high to make the thing useful.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 43
From: Florian Schaetz (Irian) iryan@********.de
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:48:43 +0200
> > Still, 17+5d6 isn't bad.
>
> 18+5D6 to be precise -- I made a little mistake by forgetting to
include
> the Reaction bonus that night ones get.

Night Ones don't get a reaction bonus. They just get +2 Quickness
instead of +1.

Irian
Message no. 44
From: Benjamin Eriksen benjamin_eriksen@*******.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:04:58 CEST
>Wanna get twisted, go for digitigrade/"Kid Stealth" legs and a geasa or two
>in order to offset the cybernetic penalties.

Heh. I gotta admit that I thought this discussion was pretty stupid, but
seeing as it has approached a subject i personally adore, I'll contribute my
2 cents. (I know; isn't it strange how some things are stupid until you are
the one doing them? I get that all the time...:)

Fast? I'll give you fast. Go with the Kid Stealth legs, then buy the
Hydraulic Jacks up to level 5. In my book I can make it work, but that
depends on whether you consider the ECU cost for each leg or as a unified
system. If you have to squeeze in the listed EC units in each leg, then all
bets are off. Next do some Strength and Quickness enhancements, plus you add
the bioware thingie (can't recall; it's the one that gives you the +2
Athletics).

I made some character move at nigh 90 kph with that, and though it was
puerile as hell and a major contributor to munchkin activity within the
gamer group, it just felt too damn good to pass up on...

Oh well, that's life, I guess.

Benjamin (If I didn't have my cymbals I'd surely be mad by now *ktshhh*)
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Message no. 45
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:54:57 +1000
----- Original Message -----
From: "Achille Autran" <aautran@****.fr>
To: "ShadowRN" <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: While we're on the topic of munchkins...


> From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:40:29 +0200
>
> > A greater challenge is this one: create the highest-initiative
> _starting_
> > character, using either the standard SR3 system or the building points
> > system. Use only gear from SR3-era, FASA-published Shadowrun rulebooks
> and
> > follow all normal character generation rules (e.g., no ratings over 6,
> no
> > availability over 8, put a maximum of 6 points into each attribute,
> and so
> > on).
>
> Ah, long gone is the time when a tactical computer was the definite edge
> in initiative contests...
> Let's give a try at this little calculus problem:
>
> With the points system (123 points)
> Race: Night One (15 BP)
> Physical Magician (30 BP)
> 1 000 000 ¥ (30 BP)
>
> Edges: Bonus attribute point: Quickness (2 BP)
> Adrenaline surge (2 BP)
"...already enhanced by cyberware, bioware, or magic(including... adepts)may
not purchase ...
SC pg 18

> Aptitude: spellcasting (4 BP)
> Flaws: 6 BP of various flaws, mild allergy to sunlight
>
> Base attributes (modified by edges and race): (36 BP)
> Bod 1
> Qui 9
8 unless you also purchase exceptional attribute

> Str 1
> Cha 3
> Int 5
> Wil 4
>
> Skills: (16 BP)
> Sorcery (spellcasting): 5(7)
> Conjuring (summoning): 3(5)
>
> Cyberware:
> Boosted reflexes 3 (beta)
> Reaction enhancer 6
> wich gives Essence: 2.5. Magic loss is counterweighted by four geasa.
>
> Bioware:
> Synaptic accelerator 2
> Enhanced articulations
> Suprathyroid
> for Body Index: 3.0 and a virtual magic rating of 3.
>
> Adept powers:
> Increased physial attibutes: quickness 3
> Magical power 3
> 1.5 power points remaining

An adept begins the game with a number of power points equal to the adepts
Magic Attribute. (SR pg 168)

Magic rating and Magic attribute appear to be interchangable terms. (SR pg
56)

If an awakened character has bioware reduce the magic rating by the
characters Bio index and round down to the nearest whole numer. This
modified Magic Rating is used inplase of the base Magic rating. (MM pg 78)

Gease cannot be used to counteract a Magic Rating modified by bioware,...
(MM pg 78 again)

If a magician adept suffers magic loss subtract the lost points from the
magic power before any other power. (Mits 22)

So, from my understanding, until he initiates and raises his base magic
rating (And therefore his virtual magic rating) no magical power.

>
> Focus, Spells'n'Spirits:
> Increase cybered attribute: quickness 1
> Increase attribute: intelligence 6
> Power 5 elemental bound with 3 services
> 2 health expendable spell foci rating 3
> summoning material rating 1,3,4 and 6
>
> 5000 ¥ for lifestyle and various goods, including novacoke, cram,
> kamikaze and jazz.
>
> Now, with a summoned elemental at hand for sustaining purpose, a spell
> focus used, sorcery aid and karma pool, we can reasonnbly expect to
> achieve 12 successes against TN# 4 for Inc. intelligence (rolling 19
> dices without karma) and 2 successes against TN# 10 for Inc. quickness.
> That was before ingesting any drugs...
> Eventually we get:
> Base +Cyber/adept +Magic +Drugs
> Body 1 2 2 3
> Quickness 9 13 14 17
> Strength 1 2 2 4
> Charisma 3 3 3 4
> Intellignce 5 5 11 11
> Willpower 4 4 4 5
> Essence 2.5
> Magic 6(3)
> Reaction 7 19 22 26
> Init 1D6 5D6 5D6 8D6
>
Q 15
I 5
W 5
R 18 + 8d6 or an average of 46 (Assuming you aren't ruled to have a heart
attack and die from that massive drug overdose)
(At least I think my math is right. This is a complex little begger here)

> Don't forget that, with the adrenaline surge edge, the rule of six is
> applied to the initiative roll, upping dices average from 3.5 to 4.2.
> Therefore, this stressed lot should roll about 26+8*4.2Y.6 on
> initiative, when fully up. And stink, coz of the sweat and the fur,
> ya know.
>
> And remember, this is a STARTING character. :-) :-) :-)
>


Annachie

------------------------------------------------

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-----to answer questions that are key
-----is it to be or not to be
-----and I replied 'oh why ask me?'
-----Theme from MASH
Message no. 46
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 19:11:44 +0200
According to Florian Schaetz (Irian), at 12:48 on 18 Oct 00, the word on
the street was...

> > 18+5D6 to be precise -- I made a little mistake by forgetting to include
> > the Reaction bonus that night ones get.
>
> Night Ones don't get a reaction bonus. They just get +2 Quickness
> instead of +1.

Which means +1 Reaction, and that's what I was talking about, but I
phrased it poorly. If I'm not mistaken, if you look at my original message
and check the numbers, it says 22 while it should come out at 23.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 47
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:20:40 GMT
>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>Okay, here's another challenge. Make the FASTEST
>starting character you can. Not the QUICKEST. The
>FASTEST. i.e. the guy who can run at 90km/h. Using SR3
>rules, of course.

Me and two of my players once spent an hour waiting for a player to turn up
creating just that. I can't remember all of it but I can remember him (or
her) being a night one ghoul adept with cyberskates, lots of quickness
boosters and improved athletics. And I can distinctly remember us rolling
the dice and working out that she broke the sound barrier.

Phil

Dieing is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 48
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:20:42 -0400
On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 02:25:35 -0500 Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
writes:
> A Nightone Path of the mage (shaman) adept who summons spirits to
> use
> their movement power. With the exceptional attribute edge, you can
> get a
> fairly obscene Quickness (~14) and Athletics (Running
> Specialization)
> skill (11 dice). You might want to install a trauma damper to help
> with
> resisting the drain on those high-force spirits, but let's leave it
> out
> to keep his Magic at 5. There are probably a few other enhancements,
> like
> cyberskates that could further boost Speedy, but I would reccomend
> avoiding Enhanced Atrictulation. Extended Volume and that heart mod
> (forgot the name) might be worthwile, however. You could also
> scarifice
> another point of magic to make the character a ghoul. Aside from
> that,
> voila. :)

Everyone wants to use NightOne's for the higher quickness, but...
A ghoul satyr with KS cyberlegs, the Satyr may have a -1 quickness but
the higher multiplier makes up for it.

The Movement power is nice also.
so, while he may have 3 points less quickness than a (comparable)
NightOne, the multiplier will more than make up for it.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 49
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:17:47 -0700 (PDT)
> A Nightone Path of the mage (shaman) adept who
summons spirits to use their movement power. With the
exceptional attribute edge, you can get a fairly
obscene Quickness (~14) and Athletics (Running
Specialization) skill (11 dice). You might want to
install a trauma damper to help with resisting the
drain on those high-force spirits, but let's leave it
out to keep his Magic at 5. There are probably a few
other enhancements, like cyberskates that could
further boost Speedy, but I would reccomend avoiding
Enhanced Atrictulation. Extended Volume and that heart
mod (forgot the name) might be worthwile, however. You
could also scarifice another point of magic to make
the character a ghoul. Aside from that, voila. :)
>
> Epa! Epa! Ondale! Ondale! ~(o:B
> D. Ghost

*sigh*

Needs some rules. :)

1. No external tech or magic. No cars, no motorbikes,
no spirit powers. :)
2. STARTING characters, remember? Where do you get
Quickness 14 and Running 11 from, hmmm?
3. Give us your final (average, if any dice rolling is
involved) speed in km/h or m/s.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

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Message no. 50
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:46:47 -0700 (PDT)
> Let's run the numbers:
<snipt!>
> Yes, bioware overstress will definitely apply here
:) But by taking the Exceptional Attribute edge for
both Quickness and Intelligence we can add another +1
to make it 22+4D6.
> Gurth@******.nl -

*lol*

Okay, fine.

But my guy can buy a gun and kill your guy dead. ;)

*Doc' blows the smoke away from his fingertip...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

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Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 51
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:26:47 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 16:46 on 18 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

[22+4D6]
> Okay, fine.
>
> But my guy can buy a gun and kill your guy dead. ;)

Or you could wait until he dies from pneumonia from sleeping out in the
rain with no clothes on :)

I was very surprised I could spend _exactly_ a million nuyen on this,
though. A cheaper way to get almost the same thing would be to make use of
the boosted refs/synaptic accelerator loophole, and buy level 3 and level
2, respectively, to get a +2 Reaction and +4D6 initiative bonus, then get
6 levels of reaction enhancer. That puts the total initiative at *counts
on fingers* 21+5D6 (I think) which is better than 22+4D6 and leaves you
with 30,000 nuyen and 1.4 Essence -- and I think that also eliminates the
biosystem overstress!

However, that only works if the GM allows boosted reflexes and synaptic
accelerators to stack their bonuses, which I myself would not -- only the
highest number of dice applies in my game, regardless of the source,
unless it's specifically indicated that they stack (as with MBW/SA in
Cybertechnology).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 52
From: griffinhq@****.com griffinhq@****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:39:39 -0400
On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:26:47 +0200 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
>
> However, that only works if the GM allows boosted reflexes and
> synaptic
> accelerators to stack their bonuses, which I myself would not --
> only the
> highest number of dice applies in my game, regardless of the source,
> unless it's specifically indicated that they stack (as with MBW/SA
> in Cybertechnology).
>
I've got a message from Mike lying around somewhere where he states it's
legal.

*************************************************************************
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"A Shadowrunner's Corp."

http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/Griffin/index.html

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Message no. 53
From: Cole, Wade A. wcole@********.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:48:52 -0500
Griffin wrote:
> I've got a message from Mike lying around somewhere
> where he states it's
> legal.
>
But that doesn't help you much if Mike isn't your GM...
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Message no. 54
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:41:29 +0200
According to Cole, Wade A., at 10:48 on 19 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

> > I've got a message from Mike lying around somewhere
> > where he states it's legal.
> >
> But that doesn't help you much if Mike isn't your GM...

Depends... If you only say "Mike" then chances are many GMs won't allow
it; if you say it's a ruling from "Mike Mulvihill, you know, the Shadowrun
line developer at FASA" I have a feeling plenty of GMs will suddenly
change their ideas about the issue.

FWIW (and mainly for the benefit of the player in my group who's on this
list), I maintain that in my game this does _not_ stack because I have
never allowed multiple initiative dice bonuses to stack.

--
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It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 55
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:41:30 -0700 (PDT)
> > But that doesn't help you much if Mike isn't your
GM...
>
> Depends... If you only say "Mike" then chances are
many GMs won't allow it; if you say it's a ruling from
"Mike Mulvihill, you know, the Shadowrun line
developer at FASA" I have a feeling plenty of GMs will
suddenly change their ideas about the issue.
>
> FWIW (and mainly for the benefit of the player in my
group who's on this list), I maintain that in my game
this does _not_ stack because I have never allowed
multiple initiative dice bonuses to stack.
> Gurth@******.nl -

Sorry. I already knew about that ruling from Mike
(Mulvihill :) ) and I still think it's a Bad Idea(TM).

If you want to be fast, there should be some drawbacks
(well, except with magic and low-level upgrades
IMNSHO) and I don't think the BR/SA combo provides
sufficient drawbacks in the rules.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

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Message no. 56
From: Chipeloi chipeloi@***.nl
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:08:24 +0200
In the asylum, Gurth whispered in the corridors:

>
>
> FWIW (and mainly for the benefit of the player in my group who's on
> this list), I maintain that in my game this does _not_ stack because I
> have never allowed multiple initiative dice bonuses to stack.



aaaaarrgg you take the fun out of everything gurth =)

--
>If you thought Chipeloi was crazy just wait till you meet me !
Message no. 57
From: DV8 dv8@***.nl
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:17:31 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chipeloi" <chipeloi@***.nl>
> > FWIW (and mainly for the benefit of the player in my group who's on
> > this list), I maintain that in my game this does _not_ stack because I
> > have never allowed multiple initiative dice bonuses to stack.
>
> aaaaarrgg you take the fun out of everything gurth =)

/me hands Gurth Cash's infamous Wufflebat of Doom and Destruction from Hell
and/or Outer Space...

You can hit your player now...

DV8

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 58
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 08:07:44 GMT
>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>If you want to be fast, there should be some drawbacks
>(well, except with magic and low-level upgrades
>IMNSHO) and I don't think the BR/SA combo provides
>sufficient drawbacks in the rules.

I guess I take a kinder aproach; I don't forbid players from buying both
items, with the understanding that if they get too good too fast I'm gonna
have to pull out the cyberzombies with move by wire.

Phil

Dieing is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 59
From: Keith Duthie psycho@*********.co.nz
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 21:25:17 +1300 (NZDT)
On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Phil Smith wrote:

> I guess I take a kinder aproach; I don't forbid players from buying both
> items, with the understanding that if they get too good too fast I'm gonna
> have to pull out the cyberzombies with move by wire.

If you need cyberzombies to keep your players in line then you're playing
the NPCs too stupid. The PCs are going to piss off someone eventually, and
when they do they're going to find out exactly what a sniper can do. Or
even a ganger's pistol to the back of the head with surprise. Not to
mention Lonestar...

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Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
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Message no. 60
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 11:22:05 GMT
>From: Keith Duthie <psycho@*********.co.nz>
> > I guess I take a kinder aproach; I don't forbid players from buying both
> > items, with the understanding that if they get too good too fast I'm
>gonna
> > have to pull out the cyberzombies with move by wire.
>
>If you need cyberzombies to keep your players in line then you're playing
>the NPCs too stupid.

I was kind of exaggerating; basicly, I let them have anything the rules let
them, with the understanding that there are bigger, badder things out there
and they will always face NPC power levels relative to their own.

Phil

Dieing is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 61
From: Keith Duthie psycho@*********.co.nz
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 00:53:59 +1300 (NZDT)
On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Phil Smith wrote:

> I was kind of exaggerating; basicly, I let them have anything the rules let
> them, with the understanding that there are bigger, badder things out there
> and they will always face NPC power levels relative to their own.

Hell, you don't need bigger and badder. Just unexpected. Like the
aforementioned ganger, or a truck trying running them down as they cross
the street. And the Star is an ever-present threat to those who are
wandering around with paralegal equipment...

While there's always bigger and badder, it's the little fish on the way up
that have a habit of biting ;-)

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 62
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 10:49:13 -0500
On Sat, 21 Oct 2000 21:25:17 +1300 (NZDT) Keith Duthie
<psycho@*********.co.nz> writes:
<SNIP>
> If you need cyberzombies to keep your players in line then
> you're
> playing
> the NPCs too stupid.
<SNIP>

I don't know how Phil Smith (to whom the above was directed) runs his
games, but in general, that's not necessarily true ... The threat of
cyberzombies can be used against players as a tangible threat. The
players will know what ha means. However, threatening them with snipers
will not get the same response. Additionally, it can feel to the players
like you're "cheating". Threatening them with cyberzombies is nice
because it reinforces the idea that there's always someone better than
you. :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 63
From: Florian Schaetz (Irian) iryan@********.de
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 18:17:52 +0200
> I don't know how Phil Smith (to whom the above was directed) runs his
> games, but in general, that's not necessarily true ... The threat of
> cyberzombies can be used against players as a tangible threat. The
> players will know what ha means. However, threatening them with
snipers
> will not get the same response. Additionally, it can feel to the
players
> like you're "cheating". Threatening them with cyberzombies is nice
> because it reinforces the idea that there's always someone better than
> you. :)

The Problem is, that cyberzombies are extremly ineffective. You need
millions of nuyen before you get something, that's good. A good
combination of cyber- and bioware is much more effective than
cybermancy.

Irian
Message no. 64
From: Augustus shadowrun@********.net
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 10:21:41 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Duthie <psycho@*********.co.nz>
>
> If you need cyberzombies to keep your players in line then you're playing
> the NPCs too stupid. The PCs are going to piss off someone eventually, and
> when they do they're going to find out exactly what a sniper can do. Or
> even a ganger's pistol to the back of the head with surprise. Not to
> mention Lonestar...

One could make the same comment about your response though.

The first poster was using more powerful NPCs to take on his players... your
suggestion is to instead use cheap shots (ie: the bullet to the back of the
head) or to suprise them and take advantage of the situation (ie: the sniper
rifle... a weapon with a very high damage code... suprise shot fired from a
distance... So PCs get no combat pool... probably as popular as the bullet
to the back of the head)

Maybe what you should have suggested was: Tactics and brains... something
the NPCs should have in the first place.

-Have NPCs use cover
-Have NPCs use cover fire
-Have NPCs call in for backup
-Have NPCs retreat if they hurt too bad
-Have NPC mages heal other NPCs
-Have NPCs use stun attacks on PCs. Even if the PCs kill all the NPCs, they
can't quickly heal a serious stun... and using a stimpack only makes it
worse in the long run.
-Have NPCs give penalties to the runners, have NPCs move, use smoke
grenades, turn out the lights (if the guards are properly equipped), etc
-Have NPCs use their command centre... every security team should have one.
Will allow them to coordinate and maybe flank the PCs (so they might be
using +6 cover versus one group of NPCs... but suddenly a second group
attacking from the side might have no cover penalties)
-Have NPCs suprise the players... waiting in ambush... sneaking up on
them... invisibility spell... silence spell... stealth... etc... roll for
suprise checks... PCs will probably be more keen on losing their combat pool
if they are snuck up on... not if some Lone Star sniper 1œ Kilometers away
takes a shot at them.

Anyhoo... just some thoughts on the subject...

Clint
Augustus
Message no. 65
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 13:13:57 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Duthie" <psycho@*********.co.nz>
>
> If you need cyberzombies to keep your players in line then you're playing
> the NPCs too stupid. The PCs are going to piss off someone eventually, and
> when they do they're going to find out exactly what a sniper can do. Or
> even a ganger's pistol to the back of the head with surprise. Not to
> mention Lonestar...

One fun, but difficult, spell is one I came up with that filled the interior
of a limb with darkness... especially all those neato fiber-optic bits.
Suddenly, your wired reflexes don't work, and that neat cyber-arm you have
is a large amount of slag, since neither one can communicate with your
brain...
Message no. 66
From: Keith Duthie psycho@*********.co.nz
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 08:11:08 +1300 (NZDT)
On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Augustus wrote:

> One could make the same comment about your response though.

Really? Snipers and gangers are a common fact of life in some areas of
Seattle in 2060. Cyberzombies aren't AFAICT. Of course, my examples were a
little extreme, but...

> The first poster was using more powerful NPCs to take on his players... your
> suggestion is to instead use cheap shots (ie: the bullet to the back of the
> head) or to suprise them and take advantage of the situation (ie: the sniper
> rifle... a weapon with a very high damage code... suprise shot fired from a
> distance... So PCs get no combat pool... probably as popular as the bullet
> to the back of the head)

Who said it had to be a professional sniper? A normal person with average
skill sniping with a sports rifle will generally do well enough without
doing too well. And cheap shots should be used whenever appropriate,
however popular they are; I'm not saying they should be invariably fatal,
but if a runner is getting cocky and not being careful enough, then a
period of hospitalization can do wonders.
And the bullet to the back of the head could be from a light pistol
(especially if the area is an A zone). Just a friendly reminder to a
runner that gangers don't make good target practice ;-)

> Maybe what you should have suggested was: Tactics and brains... something
> the NPCs should have in the first place.

That goes without saying. The smartest tactic is surprise, which was
unfortunately the only example I gave.

<snip some excellent examples of use of tactics>
> -Have NPCs suprise the players... waiting in ambush... sneaking up on
> them... invisibility spell... silence spell... stealth... etc... roll for
> suprise checks... PCs will probably be more keen on losing their combat pool
> if they are snuck up on... not if some Lone Star sniper 1œ Kilometers away
> takes a shot at them.

Why would Lone Star use a sniper unless the team was already badly hosed?

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 67
From: Shiro BsquLadat shirogr@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 17:15:47 -0700 (PDT)
My guess of the best initiative would be a dark
elf with Q 8(+4R),I 6(+3R) ,synaptic accelerator
2(+2D6),boosted reflexes 3(+2D6,+2R),enhanced
articulation(+1R),suprathyroid gland(+1Q,+1R),muscle
toner 4(+2R),cerebral booster 2(+1R),reaction enhancer
6,a force 6 increase intelligence spell(+3R),a
autoinjector with
kamikaze(+1Q,+1D6),jazz(+2Q,+1D6),novacoke(+1Q) and
cram(+1R,+1D6) and at the end the edge bonus atribute
point (+1Q).
This would result in a character with 27+8D6.
(And if you get lucky in the surgery tests,
through in a adrenal pump 2(+4R) and you get
31+8D6!!!!)
Pretty neat,what do you think?


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Message no. 68
From: Shiro BsquLadat shirogr@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 17:18:33 -0700 (PDT)
My guess of the best initiative would be a dark
elf with Q 8(+4R),I 6(+3R) ,synaptic accelerator
2(+2D6),boosted reflexes 3(+2D6,+2R),enhanced
articulation(+1R),suprathyroid gland(+1Q,+1R),muscle
toner 4(+2R),cerebral booster 2(+1R),reaction enhancer
6,a force 6 increase intelligence spell(+3R),a
autoinjector with
kamikaze(+1Q,+1D6),jazz(+2Q,+1D6),novacoke(+1Q) and
cram(+1R,+1D6) and at the end the edge bonus atribute
point (+1Q).
This would result in a character with 27+8D6.
(And if you get lucky in the surgery tests,
through in a adrenal pump 2(+4R) and you get
31+8D6!!!!)
Pretty neat,what do you think?



====

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Message no. 69
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 12:13:35 -0500
:The Problem is, that cyberzombies are extremly ineffective. You need
:millions of nuyen before you get something, that's good. A good
:combination of cyber- and bioware is much more effective than
:cybermancy.

There's no reason (besides Bio-Index problems) that you can't have a
good combination of cyber and bioware AND cybermancy. Then you get a hell
on wheels samurai who is dual natured, so that he's not gonna miss the
invisible mage in the corner. Slap some quickend spells on since he's not
going through wards without fighting them any how- spell shield and astral
armor fix the vulnerability form astral soace, and while your at it a few
increase attributte spells make him that much nastier.
Then again, an intellegently played hard ass samurai with magical
support is pretty scary even without cybermancy.


-Mongoose
Message no. 70
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 09:02:04 GMT
>From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
>I don't know how Phil Smith (to whom the above was directed) runs his
>games, but in general, that's not necessarily true ... The threat of
>cyberzombies can be used against players as a tangible threat. The
>players will know what ha means. However, threatening them with snipers
>will not get the same response. Additionally, it can feel to the players
>like you're "cheating". Threatening them with cyberzombies is nice
>because it reinforces the idea that there's always someone better than
>you. :)

For the record, whilst I was GM the group never did run into a cyberzombie;
they faced the one in one of the adventures in First Run with a different GM
before he passed me the crown though. And I did do a fair bit of
threatening :)>

Come to think of it, one of the characters - a hard as nails adept who
started unbabancing the game before I persuaded him to retire - did actually
plead with me to let him have a go at killing a small dragon so I'm not sure
how a real cyberzombie would have gone down.

Phil

Dieing is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 71
From: Florian Schaetz (Irian) iryan@********.de
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:41:32 +0200
> :The Problem is, that cyberzombies are extremly ineffective. You need
> :millions of nuyen before you get something, that's good. A good
> :combination of cyber- and bioware is much more effective than
> :cybermancy.
>
> There's no reason (besides Bio-Index problems) that you can't have
a
> good combination of cyber and bioware AND cybermancy.

Exept of Bioware-Drawbacks... And btw: Cybermancy below -2 Essence ist
useless, because for every half-point below -2 the target looses
Willpower...

Irian
Message no. 72
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 05:49:51 -0500
:> There's no reason (besides Bio-Index problems) that you can't have
:a
:> good combination of cyber and bioware AND cybermancy.
:
:Exept of Bioware-Drawbacks... And btw: Cybermancy below -2 Essence ist
:useless, because for every half-point below -2 the target looses
:Willpower...
:
:Irian

Bioware drawbacks were what I meant by Bio-Index problems. And yeah,
stacked on top of loosing half your overflow, loosing more to bioware seems
bad, but considering that the platelet factory and trauma damper can't be
duplicated with cyber...

Sure, you loose willpower if you go below -2 (bad idea anyhow). Does it say
you maximum is decreased, or that you can't increase it again with karma? I
thought we were talking munchkin NPC's, here....

-Mongoose
Message no. 73
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: While we're on the topic of munchkins...
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:50:51 -0400
Keith wrote:
> Hell, you don't need bigger and badder. Just unexpected. Like the
> aforementioned ganger, or a truck trying running them down as they cross
> the street. And the Star is an ever-present threat to those who are
> wandering around with paralegal equipment...
>
> While there's always bigger and badder, it's the little fish on the way up
> that have a habit of biting ;-)

Good tactics, but any set of tactics or plot device can be used to much.
Surprise tactics can all too often be received as the GM is just out to
screw the players. I do concur that playing the NPC's smarter is a definite
improvement in the effectiveness of opposition. NPC's that use cover, team
tactics, and delaying tactics are very dangerous to a quick stealthy run.

;)

Smilin' Jack

Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm

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