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Message no. 1
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:24:17 -0500
I've been noticing a trend in recent SR products that I'd like to address.
Hopefully someone can assuage my fears.

It seems that none of the new books are new material. SR3 was nice, but
it's just a rehash of a book they've already done twice. It presented some
new stuff and was useful to most of us, but still, it wasn't new.

New Seattle, same thing. Didn't they already publish this? Sure, the first
one sucked and a better one was needed, but I could have lived without it.

The new Shadowrun Companion is the first SR book I've never bought since the
1st ed. Why? Cuz it's the same fucking thing as the one I already own. Sure,
the cover was nicer (arguably the first one had the worst SR picture ever on
the cover). Oh, there might be some new rules in it, but for $18 I don't
need them.

MiTS: again with the repetition. Wasn't all this already published in 2
Grimoires and Awakenings? Once again, some stuff might be new, but is it
worth it?

Corporate Download: Plenty of stuff on corporations that wasn't in the
Corporate Shadowfiles, but, honestly, don't you think they should have
gotten it right the first time?

Now, I'm not dissing rehashes. Who could use the first VR? The 2nd one was
incredibly needed. Same with Rigger Black Book. But, come on FASA. I've
already bought all these books before.

I don't know what new products are coming out other than these, but I heard
some rumors that there's a new Cybertech book on the way. Another book we
really don't need.

Is SR dead?

This is reminding me too much of another company that I won't name (White
Wolf) that had run out of ideas for their flagship game (V:tM). So, what did
they do? They glossed up the old books some and published them again. And,
if you were really stupid, you get some art book and a Neil Gaiman essay or
something for more-money-than-was-needed.

I don't know sales figures or anything, but I hated the new V:tM and I
wasn't all that impressed with SR3. I don't need the stuff I already own. I
need new product. I've always like Mulvihill's direction with SR, until now.
Don't make me lose faith in this otherwise cool game.
Message no. 2
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 18:32:18 -0400
>I've been noticing a trend in recent SR products that I'd like to address.
>Hopefully someone can assuage my fears.

As a playtester who has helped on some of this stuff, I'll do my best.

>It seems that none of the new books are new material. SR3 was nice, but
>it's just a rehash of a book they've already done twice. It presented some
>new stuff and was useful to most of us, but still, it wasn't new.

You're basically right. SR3's goal was to put almost everything in one main
book, not to present new material.
If you look at the new SR3 material that has been released, and pretend that
you are just starting the game for the first time, you can see why it was
done this way.
Hoever, it's kind of funny that you mention "some new stuff" and then claim
that the same stuff "wasn;t new" You can't have it both ways my friend. ;-)

>New Seattle, same thing. Didn't they already publish this? Sure, the first
>one sucked and a better one was needed, but I could have lived without it.

Then don't buy it.
Personally I liked NS. Especially the chart for Lone Star response times,
and the location index in the back.
Put the two books side by side, and you will see that a LOT of the material
was actually new, or material that was scattered over several books.
(NAN1&2, NAG, etc.)
Again more useful for a newbie that doen't know anything about SR, but good
nonetheless.

>The new Shadowrun Companion is the first SR book I've never bought since
the
>1st ed. Why? Cuz it's the same fucking thing as the one I already own.
Sure,
>the cover was nicer (arguably the first one had the worst SR picture ever
on
>the cover). Oh, there might be some new rules in it, but for $18 I don't
>need them.

Again, if you don't need it, then don't buy it.
And since you say it has "Some new rules in it" how then is it "the same
f#&*ing thing" as the first printing?
Picking nits you say? Does your SC1 have ghouls in it? How about the Edge
"Daredevil" How about a VERY usable payment profile for new runners?
SC is also for newbies, you're right. However there's some decent material
buried in there.
Oh yeah, if you didn't buy it, then how can you know what's in the whole
book anyway? ;-)

>MiTS: again with the repetition. Wasn't all this already published in 2
>Grimoires and Awakenings? Once again, some stuff might be new, but is it
>worth it?

IMO yes it is worth it.
MitS IMO is the first excellent SR3 product to come out.
You have the NEW rules for initiation - completely different from SR2.
New powers like Possession.
Expanded details on spirits, especially ghosts and wraiths.
How magical background skills work for non-magically active PC's.
A MUCH improved spell design system
New systems for physads using centering in conjunction with Athletics and
Stealth.
Geasa rules for physads, allowing them to purchase powers at a lower price
with certain restrictions.
The list goes on and on.
Also, for once you have all this stuff in one volume, which was worth it for
me.
The fewer books I have to carry to the game the better. ;-)

>Corporate Download: Plenty of stuff on corporations that wasn't in the
>Corporate Shadowfiles, but, honestly, don't you think they should have
>gotten it right the first time?

Yeah, but they didn't, so this book was DEFINATELY needed.
Plus with all the changes made in BitB, and RA:S there's a lot more info the
GM especially needs to handle corp activity properly.

>Now, I'm not dissing rehashes. Who could use the first VR? The 2nd one was
>incredibly needed. Same with Rigger Black Book. But, come on FASA. I've
>already bought all these books before.

Then stick with SR2, and be happy.
No one forces you to buy this stuff if you don' want to.
(Am I starting to sound repetetive with this theme?) ;-)

Seriously, I was firmly opposed to SR3 until I had time to adjust.
Now I think that SR3 is a marked improvement over earlier versions.
Yeah, a lot of the stuff is just rehashes, but once you get into the
nitty-gritty details, and see how the little tweaks really change the game,
I think you'll be pleased.

>I don't know what new products are coming out other than these, but I heard
>some rumors that there's a new Cybertech book on the way. Another book we
>really don't need.

We don't?
Then you must already have the bioware rules for SR3!
You lucky dog! ;-)
Since bioware hasn't been handled since SR1 I think this is a BIG area that
needs addressed.
Plus, consider how many posts we get on this list everytime there's a
tech/gun discussion.
Are you serious about how a new "toy" book will be received?
I predict a FLOOD of posts when Man & Machine, and the Cannon Companion are
released.
SR geeks love gear. It's a simple fact of life. ;-)

>Is SR dead?

Ask the Fearless Leader how many people are on this list, then ask me that
question again.
Oh yeah, let's not forget that SR has finally surpassed Battletech as a
money-maker for FASA!
I hardly think that SR is dead.
A little dormant? Maybe, but that just means us lazy gits have to write our
own adventures for a change. ;-)

>This is reminding me too much of another company that I won't name (White
>Wolf) that had run out of ideas for their flagship game (V:tM). So, what
did
>they do? They glossed up the old books some and published them again. And,
>if you were really stupid, you get some art book and a Neil Gaiman essay or
>something for more-money-than-was-needed.

AFAIK, WW did the new version for the same reasons FASA did.
Streamline things into fewer books.
Get Out-Of-Print material back in print so it can make money and ...
Make cash off a new edition. Like it or not, new stuff sells. Old books sit
on dealer's shelves and fester.

>I don't know sales figures or anything, but I hated the new V:tM and I
>wasn't all that impressed with SR3. I don't need the stuff I already own. I
>need new product. I've always like Mulvihill's direction with SR, until
now.
>Don't make me lose faith in this otherwise cool game.

As for sales figures, my sources say that VtM and SR3 have both done quite
well for their respective companies.
The May issue of Inquest Gamer reports that SR3 is FASA's main money maker.
Online booksellers are haveing no trouble moving stock, and even the local
dealers here in Ohio are doing quite well.
(In fact the shop I frequent sold all 10 of his copies of MitS the first two
days it was out! That's quite a feat for a small shop that normally only
orders 5 copies of a book!)

Personally I don't think you have lost faith.
I think you have lost your patience, and in that I can hardly blame you.
Right now we are suffering through a year of retreads.
IMO GOOD reatreads, but you're right - there is no new "Flashy" product to
excite our jaded gamer senses.
No Bug City, no D' Secrets, no Election series.
RA:S suffered IMO from some heavy editing/chopping, and BitB jumped around
covering so many bases it confused people.

My suggestions?
Play something else for a while.
I took a break from SR from August until April, and played a lot of
Deadlands, MtG, and a few other fun games.
Now my SR brain is percolating again, and I;ve got a nice little campaign
cooking along. ;-)

There is NEW material coming. I mean NEW completely NEW all NEW
oh-geez-wow-NEW material!
Hang in there! ;-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
" Everybody wants to be ... closer to Steve" - The BoDeans (Paraphrase by
me.)
Message no. 3
From: Patrick Driggett psychopat@***.gulf.net
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 16:49:10 -0500
At 04:24 PM 5/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I've been noticing a trend in recent SR products that I'd like to address.
>Hopefully someone can assuage my fears.
>
>It seems that none of the new books are new material. SR3 was nice, but
>it's just a rehash of a book they've already done twice. It presented some
>new stuff and was useful to most of us, but still, it wasn't new.
>
>New Seattle, same thing. Didn't they already publish this? Sure, the first
>one sucked and a better one was needed, but I could have lived without it.
>
>The new Shadowrun Companion is the first SR book I've never bought since the
>1st ed. Why? Cuz it's the same fucking thing as the one I already own. Sure,
>the cover was nicer (arguably the first one had the worst SR picture ever on
>the cover). Oh, there might be some new rules in it, but for $18 I don't
>need them.
>
>MiTS: again with the repetition. Wasn't all this already published in 2
>Grimoires and Awakenings? Once again, some stuff might be new, but is it
>worth it?
>
>Corporate Download: Plenty of stuff on corporations that wasn't in the
>Corporate Shadowfiles, but, honestly, don't you think they should have
>gotten it right the first time?
>
>Now, I'm not dissing rehashes. Who could use the first VR? The 2nd one was
>incredibly needed. Same with Rigger Black Book. But, come on FASA. I've
>already bought all these books before.
>
>I don't know what new products are coming out other than these, but I heard
>some rumors that there's a new Cybertech book on the way. Another book we
>really don't need.
>
>Is SR dead?
>
>This is reminding me too much of another company that I won't name (White
>Wolf) that had run out of ideas for their flagship game (V:tM). So, what did
>they do? They glossed up the old books some and published them again. And,
>if you were really stupid, you get some art book and a Neil Gaiman essay or
>something for more-money-than-was-needed.
>
>I don't know sales figures or anything, but I hated the new V:tM and I
>wasn't all that impressed with SR3. I don't need the stuff I already own. I
>need new product. I've always like Mulvihill's direction with SR, until now.
>Don't make me lose faith in this otherwise cool game.

Don't you think that maybe they are trying to get the system better and
give new plot ideas (Renraku: Shutdown) so that players will have more fun?
Message no. 4
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 18:54:42 -0400
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
<Snip assuaging fears stuff>
;-)

> There is NEW material coming. I mean NEW completely NEW all NEW
> oh-geez-wow-NEW material!
> Hang in there! ;-)
>

What new stuff? I want to be in the know!!!! Who do I have to have sex with to
be a game tester? I'll do it. You hear that FASA? Free blowjobs for info!!!

>

*In a complete imitation of Doc', Strago then realizes exactly what he said,
pauses, and says "oh well."*
--
--Strago

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M-
Message no. 5
From: Kismet kismet_sr@*****.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 15:11:57 -0700 (PDT)
--- Mark Fender <markf@******.com> wrote:
> I've been noticing a trend in recent SR products
> that I'd like to address.
> Hopefully someone can assuage my fears.
>
> It seems that none of the new books are new
> material. SR3 was nice, but
> it's just a rehash of a book they've already done
> twice. It presented some
> new stuff and was useful to most of us, but still,
> it wasn't new.
>
> New Seattle, same thing. Didn't they already publish
> this? Sure, the first
> one sucked and a better one was needed, but I could
> have lived without it.
>
> The new Shadowrun Companion is the first SR book
> I've never bought since the
> 1st ed. Why? Cuz it's the same fucking thing as the
> one I already own. Sure,
> the cover was nicer (arguably the first one had the
> worst SR picture ever on
> the cover). Oh, there might be some new rules in it,
> but for $18 I don't
> need them.
>
> MiTS: again with the repetition. Wasn't all this
> already published in 2
> Grimoires and Awakenings? Once again, some stuff
> might be new, but is it
> worth it?
>
> Corporate Download: Plenty of stuff on corporations
> that wasn't in the
> Corporate Shadowfiles, but, honestly, don't you
> think they should have
> gotten it right the first time?
>
> Now, I'm not dissing rehashes. Who could use the
> first VR? The 2nd one was
> incredibly needed. Same with Rigger Black Book. But,
> come on FASA. I've
> already bought all these books before.
>
> I don't know what new products are coming out other
> than these, but I heard
> some rumors that there's a new Cybertech book on the
> way. Another book we
> really don't need.
>
> Is SR dead?
>
> This is reminding me too much of another company
> that I won't name (White
> Wolf) that had run out of ideas for their flagship
> game (V:tM). So, what did
> they do? They glossed up the old books some and
> published them again. And,
> if you were really stupid, you get some art book and
> a Neil Gaiman essay or
> something for more-money-than-was-needed.
>
> I don't know sales figures or anything, but I hated
> the new V:tM and I
> wasn't all that impressed with SR3. I don't need the
> stuff I already own. I
> need new product. I've always like Mulvihill's
> direction with SR, until now.
> Don't make me lose faith in this otherwise cool
> game.
>
>
> I am so sorry to hear people talk this way. As a new
player, I don't have all the old stuff. I am glad that
Fasa is reprinting some things. Have you seen how many
of their place books are out of print? Some of them
are impossible to buy. Just try to find the Tir
Tairngire sourcebook. New players need the reprints so
that we don't have to go to specialty sites or bribe
people to get the things we need.

Kismet
P.S. If any of you have the above mentioned sourcebook
and promise not to screw me, I will pay up to $50 for
it.

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 6
From: Arkane Arkane@***********.net
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 01:58:28 +0200
Mark Fender schrieb:

> I've been noticing a trend in recent SR products that I'd like to address.
> Hopefully someone can assuage my fears.
>
> It seems that none of the new books are new material.

(...)

What about "The year of the Comet"?

"The year is 2061 and Haley's Comet returns. This
sourcebook covers space, magic, apocalyptic cults, seismic
upheavals and more - the question is, is this Armageddon?"

New Material !!!

Arkane
(Itīs Crossover-Time: Aliens vs. free Bug Spirits, Predator vs. Lord Torgo and
so on ...)
Message no. 7
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 19:02:27 -0500
>Personally I don't think you have lost faith.
>I think you have lost your patience, and in that I can hardly blame you.

You're much more charitable than I am; judging from what I read in your
response to this yobbo, it was a major chore for me not to light into his
whining. Impatience is one thing; bitching about stuff he's not looked at
is another.

>Right now we are suffering through a year of retreads.
>IMO GOOD reatreads, but you're right - there is no new "Flashy" product to
>excite our jaded gamer senses.
>No Bug City, no D' Secrets, no Election series.

I dunno; I rather think YEAR OF THE COMET is going to be a big payoff in
that vein.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 8
From: Nero nero@******.net
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 17:22:44 -0700
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
<snip>
> >It seems that none of the new books are new material. SR3 was nice, but
> >it's just a rehash of a book they've already done twice. It presented some
> >new stuff and was useful to most of us, but still, it wasn't new.
>
> You're basically right. SR3's goal was to put almost everything in one main
> book, not to present new material.
> If you look at the new SR3 material that has been released, and pretend that
> you are just starting the game for the first time, you can see why it was
> done this way.
> Hoever, it's kind of funny that you mention "some new stuff" and then claim
> that the same stuff "wasn;t new" You can't have it both ways my friend. ;-)

If you were just starting to play it would be great, though for everyone
else (IMO) it's damn obnoxious. Throw in just enough new stuff to make
it tempting, then fill the other 3/4 with rehash. For all that's been
said about
SR3 passing SR1+SR2 sales, ya have to wonder how many of those sales are
from
longtime players expecting FASA to do no evil and how many are from
impulse
buys that will never shed another buck to FASA (on SR at least).

> >New Seattle, same thing. Didn't they already publish this? Sure, the first
> >one sucked and a better one was needed, but I could have lived without it.
>
> Then don't buy it.
> Personally I liked NS. Especially the chart for Lone Star response times,
> and the location index in the back.
> Put the two books side by side, and you will see that a LOT of the material
> was actually new, or material that was scattered over several books.
> (NAN1&2, NAG, etc.)
> Again more useful for a newbie that doen't know anything about SR, but good
> nonetheless.

Yup, another product of only marginal use to any longterm player.


> >The new Shadowrun Companion is the first SR book I've never bought since
> >the 1st ed. Why? Cuz it's the same fucking thing as the one I already own.
> >Sure,the cover was nicer (arguably the first one had the worst SR picture ever
> >on the cover). Oh, there might be some new rules in it, but for $18 I don't
> >need them.
>
> Again, if you don't need it, then don't buy it.
> And since you say it has "Some new rules in it" how then is it "the
same
> f#&*ing thing" as the first printing?
> Picking nits you say? Does your SC1 have ghouls in it? How about the Edge
> "Daredevil" How about a VERY usable payment profile for new runners?
> SC is also for newbies, you're right. However there's some decent material
> buried in there.
> Oh yeah, if you didn't buy it, then how can you know what's in the whole
> book anyway? ;-)

SPeaking of sales(again), anyone know if any SR3 but the mainbook has
done well in
sales? Kinda curious myself...back to the rambling front: They could
have easily
put the ghouls and the payment thing in the mainbook if they had wanted
to
(If it was done in time for printing..so I'm not gonna bitch to hard
about that)
Or they simply could have scattered it through other books...this one
wasn't really
needed.

> >MiTS: again with the repetition. Wasn't all this already published in 2
> >Grimoires and Awakenings? Once again, some stuff might be new, but is it
> >worth it?
>
> IMO yes it is worth it.
> MitS IMO is the first excellent SR3 product to come out.
> You have the NEW rules for initiation - completely different from SR2.
> New powers like Possession.
> Expanded details on spirits, especially ghosts and wraiths.
> How magical background skills work for non-magically active PC's.
> A MUCH improved spell design system
> New systems for physads using centering in conjunction with Athletics and
> Stealth.
> Geasa rules for physads, allowing them to purchase powers at a lower price
> with certain restrictions.
> The list goes on and on.
> Also, for once you have all this stuff in one volume, which was worth it for
> me.
> The fewer books I have to carry to the game the better. ;-)

Not gonna touch this with a 10 (or even a 20) foot pole since I haven't
seen
the thing yet.

> >Corporate Download: Plenty of stuff on corporations that wasn't in the
> >Corporate Shadowfiles, but, honestly, don't you think they should have
> >gotten it right the first time?
>
> Yeah, but they didn't, so this book was DEFINATELY needed.
> Plus with all the changes made in BitB, and RA:S there's a lot more info the
> GM especially needs to handle corp activity properly.

Depends on if they don't muck this one up too :)

> >Now, I'm not dissing rehashes. Who could use the first VR? The 2nd one was
> >incredibly needed. Same with Rigger Black Book. But, come on FASA. I've
> >already bought all these books before.
>
> Then stick with SR2, and be happy.
> No one forces you to buy this stuff if you don' want to.
> (Am I starting to sound repetetive with this theme?) ;-)

/\ See original rehash comment..they're basically saying if you want $5
worth of new stuff, you have to pay $18. Plus, there is the large man
named
Dimitri that puts a gun to my head when I approach the hobby shop ;p

> Seriously, I was firmly opposed to SR3 until I had time to adjust.
> Now I think that SR3 is a marked improvement over earlier versions.
> Yeah, a lot of the stuff is just rehashes, but once you get into the
> nitty-gritty details, and see how the little tweaks really change the game,
> I think you'll be pleased.

Ehhh...no. A few things are improved, I'll admit that. Most of the
changes
look more like obsessive tinkering to me. Just wish they would tinker
with more placebooks instead of rules that were only sprained and
not actually broken.

<snip>
> Plus, consider how many posts we get on this list everytime there's a
> tech/gun discussion.
> Are you serious about how a new "toy" book will be received?
> I predict a FLOOD of posts when Man & Machine, and the Cannon Companion are
> released.
> SR geeks love gear. It's a simple fact of life. ;-)

I love toys as much as the next person, but it would be rather nice to
stick
all the new stuff in ONE damn book. I would merrily skip to the hobby
shop
to buy "ShadowsEdge Catalog 2062-2065" or somesuch that has *new* toys
of
all kinds. Instead we get...*sigh*

> >Is SR dead?
>
> Ask the Fearless Leader how many people are on this list, then ask me that
> question again.
> Oh yeah, let's not forget that SR has finally surpassed Battletech as a
> money-maker for FASA!
> I hardly think that SR is dead.
> A little dormant? Maybe, but that just means us lazy gits have to write our
> own adventures for a change. ;-)

Think he was going more towards "is the FASA idea box dead?" and if he
wasn't,
then I am :) I for one wish they would knock it off with tons of
adventures
and make more worthwhile books.

<big snip>
> There is NEW material coming. I mean NEW completely NEW all NEW
> oh-geez-wow-NEW material!
> Hang in there! ;-)

I'll remember you said that...;)

> Steven A. Tinner

Nero
Message no. 9
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 18:31:51 -0600
At 17:22 5/6/99 -0700, Nero wrote:

>SPeaking of sales(again), anyone know if any SR3 but the mainbook has
>done well in
>sales?

MitS is already going for a second printing. I assume that means that it's
either sold out or very close to being sold out.

Adam
Message no. 10
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 13:01:07 +1000
>Corporate Download: Plenty of stuff on corporations that wasn't in the
>Corporate Shadowfiles, but, honestly, don't you think they should have
>gotten it right the first time?

They couldn't have 'gotten it right the first time' because a vast majority
of the stuff covered in detail in Corporate Download has happened in the
gameworld SINCE Corp Shadowfiles was published. This is more a sort of
state-of-play book.

Lady Jestyr

It might look like I'm doing | * Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster
nothing, but at the cellular | * Hibernator Extraordinaire
level I'm really quite busy. | * All-Around Superhero(TM)

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *
Message no. 11
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 00:21:58 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Adam J."
] MitS is already going for a second printing. I assume that means that it's
] either sold out or very close to being sold out.

Or it's got bugs (mistakes, that is). Didn't someone say a bunch of
pages in theirs were blank?

-Murder of One
Message no. 12
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:30:52 -0500
:I don't know what new products are coming out other than these, but I heard
:some rumors that there's a new Cybertech book on the way. Another book we
:really don't need.

That's not a rumour; that's something stated publically by Mike M. I'd
bet it will have enough new material in it to make it worth it even to
people who own the other 3 implant tech books, and also handles all the
issues they did in a easier, more logical, and more useful way.

There are some other books planned beyond that that have no intended
duplication with to any current product, but those are "just rumour", as in,
if you know much about them, you are not at liberty to discuss them.

Mongoose
Message no. 13
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:48:25 -0500
:] MitS is already going for a second printing. I assume that means that
it's
:] either sold out or very close to being sold out.
:
: Or it's got bugs (mistakes, that is). Didn't someone say a bunch of
:pages in theirs were blank?


All printers have technical problems that ruin a certain percentage of
books; its accepted that a print tun of X will yield final sales <X after
returns, etc. However, MiTS has been selling very fast, both from FASA to
distributors and in stores. This is not always the case with a new
sourcebook, so its a very good sign.

Mongoose
Message no. 14
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:48:36 +0200
According to Kismet, at 15:11 on 6 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> I am so sorry to hear people talk this way. As a new player, I don't
> have all the old stuff. I am glad that Fasa is reprinting some things.
> Have you seen how many of their place books are out of print? Some of
> them are impossible to buy. Just try to find the Tir Tairngire
> sourcebook. New players need the reprints so that we don't have to go to
> specialty sites or bribe people to get the things we need.

Mark has a point, however. Place books are very hard to find, but FASA
doesn't publish rehashed versions of place books (with the exception of
the one for Seattle). Instead, FASA (intends to) publish new versions of
books with which there wasn't really much wrong and which seem to me to be
still very much usable with the 3rd edition rules.

> P.S. If any of you have the above mentioned sourcebook and promise not
> to screw me, I will pay up to $50 for it.

I have the above-mentioned book, I promise not to screw you, but I don't
want to sell it :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Another year and then you'll be happy.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:12:24 -0500
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven A. Tinner [SMTP:bluewizard@*****.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 5:32 PM
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: Re: Whither Shadowrun?
>
> >I've been noticing a trend in recent SR products that I'd like to
> address.
> >Hopefully someone can assuage my fears.
>
> As a playtester who has helped on some of this stuff, I'll do my best.
>
> >It seems that none of the new books are new material. SR3 was nice, but
> >it's just a rehash of a book they've already done twice. It presented
> some
> >new stuff and was useful to most of us, but still, it wasn't new.
>
> You're basically right. SR3's goal was to put almost everything in one
> main
> book, not to present new material.
> If you look at the new SR3 material that has been released, and pretend
> that
> you are just starting the game for the first time, you can see why it was
> done this way.
> Hoever, it's kind of funny that you mention "some new stuff" and then
> claim
> that the same stuff "wasn;t new" You can't have it both ways my friend.
> ;-)
>
> >New Seattle, same thing. Didn't they already publish this? Sure, the
> first
> >one sucked and a better one was needed, but I could have lived without
> it.
>
> Then don't buy it.
> Personally I liked NS. Especially the chart for Lone Star response times,
> and the location index in the back.
> Put the two books side by side, and you will see that a LOT of the
> material
> was actually new, or material that was scattered over several books.
> (NAN1&2, NAG, etc.)
> Again more useful for a newbie that doen't know anything about SR, but
> good
> nonetheless.
>
> >The new Shadowrun Companion is the first SR book I've never bought since
> the
> >1st ed. Why? Cuz it's the same fucking thing as the one I already own.
> Sure,
> >the cover was nicer (arguably the first one had the worst SR picture ever
> on
> >the cover). Oh, there might be some new rules in it, but for $18 I don't
> >need them.
>
> Again, if you don't need it, then don't buy it.
> And since you say it has "Some new rules in it" how then is it "the
same
> f#&*ing thing" as the first printing?
> Picking nits you say? Does your SC1 have ghouls in it? How about the Edge
> "Daredevil" How about a VERY usable payment profile for new runners?
> SC is also for newbies, you're right. However there's some decent material
> buried in there.
> Oh yeah, if you didn't buy it, then how can you know what's in the whole
> book anyway? ;-)
>
Well, all right. My SC1 doesn't have ghouls in it, but my Target: UCAS does.
And the "Daredevil" Edge. Gee, I could write what it does down and sticky
note it to my SC1.


> >Corporate Download: Plenty of stuff on corporations that wasn't in the
> >Corporate Shadowfiles, but, honestly, don't you think they should have
> >gotten it right the first time?
>
> Yeah, but they didn't, so this book was DEFINATELY needed.
> Plus with all the changes made in BitB, and RA:S there's a lot more info
> the
> GM especially needs to handle corp activity properly.
>
> Seriously, I was firmly opposed to SR3 until I had time to adjust.
> Now I think that SR3 is a marked improvement over earlier versions.
> Yeah, a lot of the stuff is just rehashes, but once you get into the
> nitty-gritty details, and see how the little tweaks really change the
> game,
> I think you'll be pleased.
>
Hold the phone! They tweaked the game! Thank god! Could they tweak the price
now?

> Ask the Fearless Leader how many people are on this list, then ask me that
> question again.
> Oh yeah, let's not forget that SR has finally surpassed Battletech as a
> money-maker for FASA!
> I hardly think that SR is dead.
> A little dormant? Maybe, but that just means us lazy gits have to write
> our
> own adventures for a change. ;-)
>
> >This is reminding me too much of another company that I won't name (White
> >Wolf) that had run out of ideas for their flagship game (V:tM). So, what
> did
> >they do? They glossed up the old books some and published them again.
> And,
> >if you were really stupid, you get some art book and a Neil Gaiman essay
> or
> >something for more-money-than-was-needed.
>
> Personally I don't think you have lost faith.
> I think you have lost your patience, and in that I can hardly blame you.
> Right now we are suffering through a year of retreads.
> IMO GOOD reatreads, but you're right - there is no new "Flashy" product to
> excite our jaded gamer senses.
> No Bug City, no D' Secrets, no Election series.
> RA:S suffered IMO from some heavy editing/chopping, and BitB jumped around
> covering so many bases it confused people.
>
> My suggestions?
> Play something else for a while.
> I took a break from SR from August until April, and played a lot of
> Deadlands, MtG, and a few other fun games.
> Now my SR brain is percolating again, and I;ve got a nice little campaign
> cooking along. ;-)
>
Well, I haven't played SR in several years. I still bought all the books,
but was too busy with life to play. I did think of a massive campaign and
just started running it, when SR3 came out. Now, I'm back into running,
excited about the game, and nothing really new is coming out. That sucks.

Let's do the math. All these rehash books are going to cost me (and us - you
know you're gonna' buy them) approx. $150. That's a lot of money for the
same information I already own.

Hey, I'm glad that SR is doing well. That means more stuff coming out. And
that's good. I hope that once these products come out we can get back into
the new stuff.
Message no. 16
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:18:36 -0500
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patrick Goodman [SMTP:remo@***.net]
> Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 7:02 PM
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: RE: Whither Shadowrun?
>
> >Personally I don't think you have lost faith.
> >I think you have lost your patience, and in that I can hardly blame you.
>
> You're much more charitable than I am; judging from what I read in your
> response to this yobbo, it was a major chore for me not to light into his
> whining. Impatience is one thing; bitching about stuff he's not looked at
> is another.
>
I bitch because I love this game. While you just bitch for no reason
whatsoever. If this list is so intolerable to you, why do you bother?
Message no. 17
From: Joshua Ring strago@***.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 11:24:19 -0400
Mark Fender complained:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steven A. Tinner [SMTP:bluewizard@*****.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 5:32 PM
> > To: shadowrn@*********.org
> > Subject: Re: Whither Shadowrun?
> >
> > >I've been noticing a trend in recent SR products that I'd like to
> > address.
> > >Hopefully someone can assuage my fears.
> >
> > As a playtester who has helped on some of this stuff, I'll do my best.
> >
> > >It seems that none of the new books are new material. SR3 was nice, but
> > >it's just a rehash of a book they've already done twice. It presented
> > some
> > >new stuff and was useful to most of us, but still, it wasn't new.
> >
> > You're basically right. SR3's goal was to put almost everything in one
> > main
> > book, not to present new material.
> > If you look at the new SR3 material that has been released, and pretend
> > that
> > you are just starting the game for the first time, you can see why it was
> > done this way.
> > Hoever, it's kind of funny that you mention "some new stuff" and then
> > claim
> > that the same stuff "wasn;t new" You can't have it both ways my
friend.
> > ;-)
> >
> > >New Seattle, same thing. Didn't they already publish this? Sure, the
> > first
> > >one sucked and a better one was needed, but I could have lived without
> > it.
> >
> > Then don't buy it.
> > Personally I liked NS. Especially the chart for Lone Star response times,
> > and the location index in the back.
> > Put the two books side by side, and you will see that a LOT of the
> > material
> > was actually new, or material that was scattered over several books.
> > (NAN1&2, NAG, etc.)
> > Again more useful for a newbie that doen't know anything about SR, but
> > good
> > nonetheless.
> >
> > >The new Shadowrun Companion is the first SR book I've never bought since
> > the
> > >1st ed. Why? Cuz it's the same fucking thing as the one I already own.
> > Sure,
> > >the cover was nicer (arguably the first one had the worst SR picture ever
> > on
> > >the cover). Oh, there might be some new rules in it, but for $18 I don't
> > >need them.
> >
> > Again, if you don't need it, then don't buy it.
> > And since you say it has "Some new rules in it" how then is it
"the same
> > f#&*ing thing" as the first printing?
> > Picking nits you say? Does your SC1 have ghouls in it? How about the Edge
> > "Daredevil" How about a VERY usable payment profile for new runners?
> > SC is also for newbies, you're right. However there's some decent material
> > buried in there.
> > Oh yeah, if you didn't buy it, then how can you know what's in the whole
> > book anyway? ;-)
> >
> Well, all right. My SC1 doesn't have ghouls in it, but my Target: UCAS does.
> And the "Daredevil" Edge. Gee, I could write what it does down and sticky
> note it to my SC1.
>
> > >Corporate Download: Plenty of stuff on corporations that wasn't in the
> > >Corporate Shadowfiles, but, honestly, don't you think they should have
> > >gotten it right the first time?
> >
> > Yeah, but they didn't, so this book was DEFINATELY needed.
> > Plus with all the changes made in BitB, and RA:S there's a lot more info
> > the
> > GM especially needs to handle corp activity properly.
> >
> > Seriously, I was firmly opposed to SR3 until I had time to adjust.
> > Now I think that SR3 is a marked improvement over earlier versions.
> > Yeah, a lot of the stuff is just rehashes, but once you get into the
> > nitty-gritty details, and see how the little tweaks really change the
> > game,
> > I think you'll be pleased.
> >
> Hold the phone! They tweaked the game! Thank god! Could they tweak the price
> now?
>
> > Ask the Fearless Leader how many people are on this list, then ask me that
> > question again.
> > Oh yeah, let's not forget that SR has finally surpassed Battletech as a
> > money-maker for FASA!
> > I hardly think that SR is dead.
> > A little dormant? Maybe, but that just means us lazy gits have to write
> > our
> > own adventures for a change. ;-)
> >
> > >This is reminding me too much of another company that I won't name (White
> > >Wolf) that had run out of ideas for their flagship game (V:tM). So, what
> > did
> > >they do? They glossed up the old books some and published them again.
> > And,
> > >if you were really stupid, you get some art book and a Neil Gaiman essay
> > or
> > >something for more-money-than-was-needed.
> >
> > Personally I don't think you have lost faith.
> > I think you have lost your patience, and in that I can hardly blame you.
> > Right now we are suffering through a year of retreads.
> > IMO GOOD reatreads, but you're right - there is no new "Flashy"
product to
> > excite our jaded gamer senses.
> > No Bug City, no D' Secrets, no Election series.
> > RA:S suffered IMO from some heavy editing/chopping, and BitB jumped around
> > covering so many bases it confused people.
> >
> > My suggestions?
> > Play something else for a while.
> > I took a break from SR from August until April, and played a lot of
> > Deadlands, MtG, and a few other fun games.
> > Now my SR brain is percolating again, and I;ve got a nice little campaign
> > cooking along. ;-)
> >
> Well, I haven't played SR in several years. I still bought all the books,
> but was too busy with life to play. I did think of a massive campaign and
> just started running it, when SR3 came out. Now, I'm back into running,
> excited about the game, and nothing really new is coming out. That sucks.
>
> Let's do the math. All these rehash books are going to cost me (and us - you
> know you're gonna' buy them) approx. $150. That's a lot of money for the
> same information I already own.
>
> Hey, I'm glad that SR is doing well. That means more stuff coming out. And
> that's good. I hope that once these products come out we can get back into
> the new stuff.

As someone else mentioned, Haley's Comet is coming out soon. THAT's brand new.
Finally, I get my questions about space and magic answered without all sorts of
arguments with my players. THANK GOD AND FASA YOU ARE THE BEST!!!

*Strago renews his offer for an advance copy of Haley's Comet. Anything FASA
wants, he will do to get it. Including taking it up the butt.*

--
--Strago

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M-
Message no. 18
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:25:21 -0500
> If you were just starting to play it would be great, though for everyone
> else (IMO) it's damn obnoxious. Throw in just enough new stuff to make
> it tempting, then fill the other 3/4 with rehash. For all that's been
> said about
> SR3 passing SR1+SR2 sales, ya have to wonder how many of those sales are
> from
> longtime players expecting FASA to do no evil and how many are from
> impulse
> buys that will never shed another buck to FASA (on SR at least).
>
> >
> > Then stick with SR2, and be happy.
> > No one forces you to buy this stuff if you don' want to.
> > (Am I starting to sound repetetive with this theme?) ;-)
>
> /\ See original rehash comment..they're basically saying if you want $5
> worth of new stuff, you have to pay $18. Plus, there is the large man
> named
> Dimitri that puts a gun to my head when I approach the hobby shop ;p
>
He holds a gun to your head? Damn, he just steals my wallet. If you're a new
player, I highly encourage you to buy all the books. But us veterans want
new product!

> > Seriously, I was firmly opposed to SR3 until I had time to adjust.
> > Now I think that SR3 is a marked improvement over earlier versions.
> > Yeah, a lot of the stuff is just rehashes, but once you get into the
> > nitty-gritty details, and see how the little tweaks really change the
> game,
> > I think you'll be pleased.
>
> Ehhh...no. A few things are improved, I'll admit that. Most of the
> changes
> look more like obsessive tinkering to me. Just wish they would tinker
> with more placebooks instead of rules that were only sprained and
> not actually broken.
>
Damn skippy. I think we've got enough rules now. How 'bout something else.
There's only so many times you can change initiative before it gets old.

> <snip>
> > Plus, consider how many posts we get on this list everytime there's a
> > tech/gun discussion.
> > Are you serious about how a new "toy" book will be received?
> > I predict a FLOOD of posts when Man & Machine, and the Cannon Companion
> are
> > released.
> > SR geeks love gear. It's a simple fact of life. ;-)
>
> I love toys as much as the next person, but it would be rather nice to
> stick
> all the new stuff in ONE damn book. I would merrily skip to the hobby
> shop
> to buy "ShadowsEdge Catalog 2062-2065" or somesuch that has *new* toys
> of
> all kinds. Instead we get...*sigh*
>
> > >Is SR dead?
> >
> > Ask the Fearless Leader how many people are on this list, then ask me
> that
> > question again.
> > Oh yeah, let's not forget that SR has finally surpassed Battletech as a
> > money-maker for FASA!
> > I hardly think that SR is dead.
> > A little dormant? Maybe, but that just means us lazy gits have to write
> our
> > own adventures for a change. ;-)
>
> Think he was going more towards "is the FASA idea box dead?" and if he
> wasn't,
> then I am :) I for one wish they would knock it off with tons of
> adventures
> and make more worthwhile books.
>
>
>
Message no. 19
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 09:33:11 -0600
At 10:12 5/7/99 -0500, Mark Fender wrote:

>Well, all right. My SC1 doesn't have ghouls in it, but my Target: UCAS does.
>And the "Daredevil" Edge. Gee, I could write what it does down and sticky
>note it to my SC1.

Then, as Tinner said, don't buy the book! Shadowrun is not, despite reports
to the contrary, a drug. You are not going to die if you don't have the
book, you've basically said that yourself, so save your 20 bucks.

>Hold the phone! They tweaked the game! Thank god! Could they tweak the price
>now?

Looking at the prices of alot of new games coming out now, FASA could
probably tweak the price Upwards and still be in line with other
publishers. Be careful what you wish for.

>> Ask the Fearless Leader how many people are on this list, then ask me that
>> question again.

Based on a really quick eyeball of the subscriber list, at least 300, and
probably closer to 400.

>Well, I haven't played SR in several years. I still bought all the books,
>but was too busy with life to play. I did think of a massive campaign and
>just started running it, when SR3 came out. Now, I'm back into running,
>excited about the game, and nothing really new is coming out. That sucks.

Like there's not a plethora of information in previous published
sourcebooks and on the 'net. FASA doesn't need to spoon feed us ideas and
plots all the time to make the game successful.

Flash forward a year. All the SR3 "core" books are out. The people who have
updated to SR3 are caught up, and the new players have all the stuff they
need to make the game well rounded. What is FASA going to do then? Release
more plots, adventures, locations, and other good stuff, with a base of
gamers who have updated and consistent rules, and a load of new players.

>Let's do the math. All these rehash books are going to cost me (and us - you
>know you're gonna' buy them) approx. $150. That's a lot of money for the
>same information I already own.

Then.. don't buy it! I'm not going to buy the new books that I don't see
much use for (First Run, the streamlined newbie rules). Shadowrun is not a
drug.

I've bought more non-SR books since SR3 came out than I've bought SR books.
A couple Deadlands books, Crimson Skies, Cyberpunk2020, a pile of
Underground books from eBay, etc. Change and variety is good.

BTW - Please snip posts you're replying to. You only need to include the
text you're directly replying to, like this post.

Adam

--
< adamj@*********.html.com / http://shadowrun.html.com/tss >
< ICQ# 2350330 / ShadowFAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / Shadowrun Creative Resources >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
<"[T]he last thing I want to do is spread fear, uncertainty and >
< doubt in [the users'] minds." - Don Jones, MS Y2K Product Manager >
Message no. 20
From: Damon Harper nomad74@*******.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 10:39:38 PDT
> >Personally I don't think you have lost faith.
> >I think you have lost your patience, and in that I can hardly blame you.
>
>You're much more charitable than I am; judging from what I read in your
>response to this yobbo, it was a major chore for me not to light into his
>whining. Impatience is one thing; bitching about stuff he's not looked at
>is another.

Now, now. Let he who is without sin(or should I say SIN?) cast the first
stone. <g> The only thing more annoying than someone bitching about stuff
he hasn't looked at is someone bitching about him (and so on, and so on...).
But I want to throw in my two cents on this topic. I've read *most* of
SR3. On what I saw, I wasn't really impressed with. Not to say some of the
tweaks weren't warranted, but what I liked was counterbalanced evenly with
what I didn't.
I still play by SR2 rules. I'm over my "anti-Mike berserker rage"
thing... for the most part... and so I'm going to sit back and be patient
while all the newbies "get caught up". Once that happens, I trust (*tugs at
collar*) that Mike will crank out new and better stuff. If he doesn't,
then I simply won't buy the stuff, and discourage my friends and other not
to do so as well.
I feel your pain, however </Clinton> and agree that some stuff is
elementry to us Shadowrun vets. But, I challenge you (and myself) to be
patient and see what the future holds. If not, then me and you will start
up the SRPLA (Shadowrun-Players Liberation Army) and do a hostile takeover
of FASA, Shadowrun-style of course and make them conform to our ways [insert
evil laugh].
Until then, lets be patient. Good things come to those who wait.

-Damon Harper
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
-Albert Einstein
________________________________________________________
<nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>



_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Message no. 21
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 14:17:35 -0400 (EDT)
As usual, I fall pretty much squarely in the middle on this issue.
I have bought and thoroughly read both SR3 and SRComp3 (but haven't yet
picked up MitS). After having looked at the changes on the whole, I'd say
that SR3 is a better game, mechanically speaking.
Further, little details were taken care of in SR3. Sure, there
may be little to no difference in the combat section, and the rules for
spirit powers may not have changed at all, but to me, the big improvement
was in the "Gear" section. For the first time *ever*, rules were given
concerning the ratings and abilities of a lot of different kinds of
electronics, surveillance, and counter-surveillance equipment. In order
to make the numbers mean anything before, you more or less had to cobble
together your own house rules. For a game where technology is a
ubiquitous fact of life, doesn't anyone else find it odd that SR went for
10 years without rules for some of this stuff?
Hell, until SR3, there was no published ruling on how Stealth
actually worked. Was it an Opposed test? Was it a Resisted test? What
target number modifiers applied to it, and what bonuses did successes
confer? To me, this was one of the major, glaring oversights of both SR1
and SR2.
Was SR3Comp a rehash? Yes. Did it contain new material? Yes.
Was it worth the money I paid for it? I think so. The Edges and Flaws
are much more balanced and well-thought-out than before, and the new
"point method" for character creation takes SR3's revised skill system
into account. If you're into ghouls or shapeshifters, that information
was useful too. I personally don't own any of the "Target:Blah" books,
nor do I plan to buy them. I dislike it when rules are put into location
sourcebooks, something that SR2 under Tom Dowd was notorious for. SR3 is
starting to reverse that trend, and give people access to rules in
rulebooks, where they belong.
Do I think that SR3 is the gods' gift to the world of
role-playing? No. Do I think it's perfect? No. I despise the new
initiative rules. Do I continue to use some SR2 rules? Yes. Do I
already have house rules to cover the holes that SR3 has created or
leftover from previous versions? Yes.
Will I buy MitS when I can scrape up the cash (never
let anyone tell you that buying a house is an "adventure" - if they do,
they're lying)? Probably.
But here's the catch: before I buy "Magic in the Shadows," I'm
going to go down to my local hobby store. I'm going to pick it up off the
shelf, weigh it in my hands, and thumb through it. I'm going to piss the
clerk off, and earn a snide "whaddya think this is, a library?" from him
as I peruse it in enough detail to *decide*for*myself* whether or not it's
worth the $18.00 I'm about to plunk down for it.
If it is, I will buy it. If not, I won't. I encourage you all to
do the same. Amazon.com is all well and fine if you *know* you want
something beforehand, but if not, for heaven's sake just flip through the
thing first. You'll save yourself a lot of cash and us a lot of grief
listening to you whine that there's no new content in it.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
Mark Imbriaco <mark@*********.html.com> List Owner
Adam Jury <adamj@*********.html.com> Assistant List Administrator
DVixen <dvixen@****.com> Keeper of the FAQs
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> GridSec Enforcer Division
David Buehrer <graht@********.att.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 22
From: Joshua Ring strago@***.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 17:56:45 -0400
Marc Renouf penned the following piece of great writing:

> As usual, I fall pretty much squarely in the middle on this issue.
> I have bought and thoroughly read both SR3 and SRComp3 (but haven't yet
> picked up MitS). After having looked at the changes on the whole, I'd say
> that SR3 is a better game, mechanically speaking.
> Further, little details were taken care of in SR3. Sure, there
> may be little to no difference in the combat section, and the rules for
> spirit powers may not have changed at all, but to me, the big improvement
> was in the "Gear" section. For the first time *ever*, rules were given
> concerning the ratings and abilities of a lot of different kinds of
> electronics, surveillance, and counter-surveillance equipment. In order
> to make the numbers mean anything before, you more or less had to cobble
> together your own house rules. For a game where technology is a
> ubiquitous fact of life, doesn't anyone else find it odd that SR went for
> 10 years without rules for some of this stuff?
> Hell, until SR3, there was no published ruling on how Stealth
> actually worked. Was it an Opposed test? Was it a Resisted test? What
> target number modifiers applied to it, and what bonuses did successes
> confer? To me, this was one of the major, glaring oversights of both SR1
> and SR2.
> Was SR3Comp a rehash? Yes. Did it contain new material? Yes.
> Was it worth the money I paid for it? I think so. The Edges and Flaws
> are much more balanced and well-thought-out than before, and the new
> "point method" for character creation takes SR3's revised skill system
> into account. If you're into ghouls or shapeshifters, that information
> was useful too. I personally don't own any of the "Target:Blah" books,
> nor do I plan to buy them. I dislike it when rules are put into location
> sourcebooks, something that SR2 under Tom Dowd was notorious for. SR3 is
> starting to reverse that trend, and give people access to rules in
> rulebooks, where they belong.
> Do I think that SR3 is the gods' gift to the world of
> role-playing? No. Do I think it's perfect? No. I despise the new
> initiative rules. Do I continue to use some SR2 rules? Yes. Do I
> already have house rules to cover the holes that SR3 has created or
> leftover from previous versions? Yes.
> Will I buy MitS when I can scrape up the cash (never
> let anyone tell you that buying a house is an "adventure" - if they do,
> they're lying)? Probably.
> But here's the catch: before I buy "Magic in the Shadows," I'm
> going to go down to my local hobby store. I'm going to pick it up off the
> shelf, weigh it in my hands, and thumb through it. I'm going to piss the
> clerk off, and earn a snide "whaddya think this is, a library?" from him
> as I peruse it in enough detail to *decide*for*myself* whether or not it's
> worth the $18.00 I'm about to plunk down for it.
> If it is, I will buy it. If not, I won't. I encourage you all to
> do the same. Amazon.com is all well and fine if you *know* you want
> something beforehand, but if not, for heaven's sake just flip through the
> thing first. You'll save yourself a lot of cash and us a lot of grief
> listening to you whine that there's no new content in it.
>
> Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Amen, brother! You hit it right on the head! Now I know why you were voted to
GridSec (but it's more in the "Nice Guy" Division spirit.)

--
--Strago

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+
M-
Message no. 23
From: Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 7 May 99 19:19:04 -0400
On 5/6/99 11:21 pm, Scott Wheelock said:

>"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Adam J."
>] MitS is already going for a second printing. I assume that means that it's
>] either sold out or very close to being sold out.
>
> Or it's got bugs (mistakes, that is). Didn't someone say a bunch of
>pages in theirs were blank?
>
>-Murder of One
>
>
>
So far the only bugs I have noticed is 2 words where the last letter are
missing, but I'm only about half through.

Steve
Message no. 24
From: Graht Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 17:40:03 -0500
AdamJ wrote:
>
> Shadowrun is not a drug.

<Looks to the right to his Shadowrun collection>

:) If you say so

-Graht
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/
Geek Code: GCS d-( ) s++:->+ a@ C++>$ US P L >++ E? W++>+++ !N o-- K-
w+ o? M- VMS? PS+(++) PE+(++) Y+ !PGP t+(++) 5+(++) X++(+++) R+>$ tv+b++ DI++++
D+(++) G e+>+++ h--->---- r+++ y+++
http://home.att.net/~Graht
Message no. 25
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:59:46 EDT
In a message dated 5/6/99 6:37:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

> Expanded details on spirits, especially ghosts and wraiths.

just to mention, wraiths did not make the printing. Pages got shuffled,
wraiths fell through :-(
Message no. 26
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 20:07:56 EDT
In a message dated 5/6/99 11:23:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

> Or it's got bugs (mistakes, that is). Didn't someone say a bunch of
> pages in theirs were blank?
>
not in mine, though I caught 2 (see page XX) 's that I already told Mike
about :-)
Message no. 27
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 20:09:38 EDT
In a message dated 5/7/99 3:06:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> That's not a rumour; that's something stated publically by Mike M. I'd
> bet it will have enough new material in it to make it worth it even to
> people who own the other 3 implant tech books, and also handles all the
> issues they did in a easier, more logical, and more useful way.

actually, it sounds like there will be a lot of new stuff, Bioware is chanign
nearly completely. Nanotech and some other stuff.
Message no. 28
From: The Phantom phantom023@*******.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 00:18:05 GMT
>From: Schizi@***.com
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.org
>To: shadowrn@*********.org
>Subject: Re: Whither Shadowrun?
>Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 20:09:38 EDT
>
>In a message dated 5/7/99 3:06:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>m0ng005e@*********.com writes:
>
> > That's not a rumour; that's something stated publically by Mike M.
>I'd
> > bet it will have enough new material in it to make it worth it even to
> > people who own the other 3 implant tech books, and also handles all the
> > issues they did in a easier, more logical, and more useful way.
>
>actually, it sounds like there will be a lot of new stuff, Bioware is
>chanign
>nearly completely. Nanotech and some other stuff.

Nanotech? Damn that ruins the shock of that last adventure I wrote...




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Phantom~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A decker with a shotgun beats four aces anyday."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow~~~~~~~~~~~~~


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Message no. 29
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Whither Shadowrun?
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 20:45:03 EDT
In a message dated 5/6/1999 4:27:48 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
markf@******.com writes:

> I've been noticing a trend in recent SR products that I'd like to address.
> Hopefully someone can assuage my fears.

Doubtful Mark, after a first read-through of this, I'd say you've already
made up your mind. But, as I need something to "counterpoint" right now
(double mowing my yard can suck), this finally seems as good a subject as any.

> It seems that none of the new books are new material. SR3 was nice, but
> it's just a rehash of a book they've already done twice. It presented some
> new stuff and was useful to most of us, but still, it wasn't new.

You want brand new then don't you? That's too bad Mark, because with what is
happening in Shadowrun's Cosmology/Universe, this is all part of the "Stage
Setting."

> New Seattle, same thing. Didn't they already publish this? Sure, the first
> one sucked and a better one was needed, but I could have lived without it.

Then you could have probably not purchased it regardless. And besides, it is
a VASTLY better source of material than the first (with the exception of the
maps).

> The new Shadowrun Companion is the first SR book I've never bought since
the
> 1st ed. Why? Cuz it's the same fucking thing as the one I already own.
Sure,
> the cover was nicer (arguably the first one had the worst SR picture ever
on
> the cover). Oh, there might be some new rules in it, but for $18 I don't
> need them.

Yes, in many ways you are correct, the SR3Companion is the big chunk of
rehash. BUT, there is a reason Mark. There are many people out there that
unless they see something in "black & white", then they don't think that a
given rule has been modified "as they've heard it is."

> MiTS: again with the repetition. Wasn't all this already published in 2
> Grimoires and Awakenings? Once again, some stuff might be new, but is it
> worth it?

This one, I can safely say, is a major overhaul. I don't have mine yet (the
shipping has gotten messed up temporarily), but I have seen one of the
pre-drafts. There are major considerations of change. Sure, my *personal*
topic isn't drastically overhauled (at least not in the pre-draft), but I
know that Enchanting is NOT the big focus of the game itself. It might be to
*me*, but not to everyone that plays.

The complete overhaul as to the concept of Initiation, complete with karma
adjustments and new metatalents, is almost worth the paper alone. Initiation
is the BIG focus for the majority of magician PC's (and NPC's as well) that
are out there. With it's redrafting, the rest of the system itself needed to
be looked at new.

> Corporate Download: Plenty of stuff on corporations that wasn't in the
> Corporate Shadowfiles, but, honestly, don't you think they should have
> gotten it right the first time?

Should have? Yes? Could have? Doubtful. There are LOTS of reasons for my
feeling this way, very few if any of which, I can safely put up to this list.

> Now, I'm not dissing rehashes. Who could use the first VR? The 2nd one was
> incredibly needed. Same with Rigger Black Book. But, come on FASA. I've
> already bought all these books before.

Hmmm...no, you have bought books that have a preconceptual basis on a
previous book. In all honesty, I could have lived without the Rigger-2 two,
but I am very glad that I do not have to. Same goes with VR-2 for that
matter. As with all things Mark, time will give way to improvement, as long
as that improvement is both sought after, desired, and supported by all
parties involved.

> I don't know what new products are coming out other than these, but I heard
> some rumors that there's a new Cybertech book on the way. Another book we
> really don't need.

Oh? Heres' an interesting thought that comes to my mind? Just how many
"house rules" do you have? How many pieces of cyberware of customized spells
that have NO CANON support from FASA whatsoever? How many things do you have
to give to any of your players simply because they don't have something that
*they* can go out to a store/website and purchase to have *as their own*.

I have some ideas what is likely to come in the "Man & Machine" and
"Cannon
Companion" books. I don't know everything, but I can make some mid-range
guesses of a slightly educated nature (vague enough for the rest of ya??
;-). I know that the ability to attract *NEW* players depends on creating a
transitional period, and that means updating all the *OLD* rules to the new
SR3 standards. And that means rehashing literally every bit of material that
has preceded it to date. Decisions about what is going to be kept, what
story lines are we likely to have to support for upcoming novels (what, you
mean you folks don't see this coming?), even what stuff is going to simply be
treated as "Dead End" material.

> Is SR dead?

Doubtful, especially given it's strengthening sales and the growing levels of
experiences of it's support staff.

> This is reminding me too much of another company that I won't name (White
> Wolf) that had run out of ideas for their flagship game (V:tM). So, what
did
> they do? They glossed up the old books some and published them again. And,
> if you were really stupid, you get some art book and a Neil Gaiman essay or
> something for more-money-than-was-needed.

No, what WW needed was an influx of cash, and as they had no new material
(because their staff and their gaming public were not supporting a *FAD* like
they thought they would continue to do), then they were forced to republish
the old material with a flashier new look.

And as for a few Essays, well, no offense, but good writers are getting much
rarer to find these days. Sure, lots of people with good ideas, that I do
not doubt. I merely do not believe that number of individuals is also
inclusive of expressing their ideas in a literary format that is worthy of
publishing to a potentially vast audience.

> I don't know sales figures or anything, but I hated the new V:tM and I
> wasn't all that impressed with SR3. I don't need the stuff I already own. I
> need new product. I've always like Mulvihill's direction with SR, until
now.
> Don't make me lose faith in this otherwise cool game.

Faith, is something that develops from within after it finds inspiration
without. If yours is this shakey, then it is doubtful it has taken a truly
*firm* hold. I had my doubts as to Mike M's direction for SR, but I have
been convinced. I am also convinced that this transitional period is going
to be well worth the effort.

-K (YAHTZEE FOREVER!!!!)

Further Reading

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