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From:	James Nichols <mindcrime@***.campus.mci.net>
Subject:	WHOA THERE TOPKITTY
Date:	Sat, 27 Apr 1996 16:20:00 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 1 >------------------------------

>>About Phys Ads

>Oh man, does this kind of argument get me feeling evil...

Listen cheeseball, there's no reason to get into such an adolescent snit about
all of this. If ya got something to say, please by all means say "I disagree",
"I don't concur!" or "You're wrong because . . . ".

A clear, concise statement goes a lot further than "<whining voice> Your just a

big crybaby, NA NA!" Please leave the attitude at the door.

>
>>[snipped the whine "physads have to spend 1 more point to get as fast as a
>samurai with wired 3, and still come up 3 reaction short"]

Just to disect this a bit, Wired 3 gives 6 Reaction and 3d6: cost = 5 essence
Inc. Reflexes gives 3d6 no Reaction: cost = 6 Magic

6 Reaction points is almost the equivalent to 2 extra dice (at a dice being
worth 3.5 on average) and there's no randomness to it.
(Phys Ad) 6 + 4d6 does not equal 12 + 4d6 (all other stats being equal)

>If a samurai takes priority B in resources, then he
>can't get wired 3. Best he can get is wired 2. Which means the PA will be
>faster.
Phys ad average Initiave (6+4*3.5)= 20
Sam average Init. (wired 2) 10+ 3*3.5= 20.5
On average the Sam is just a bit faster and less random

>Did I mention that PA's can use 'ware too? Or that PA powers don't show up
>on cyberware scanners? Or that you don't accidentally shoot people with
>pumped-up PA reaction and initiative?

Sure Phys Ad's can use ware, go no problem with that. Most high-end places
with cyberware scanners are probably going to have magic assensers (sp?) to
mark incoming mage-types. Could you calmly (sans attitude) explain the last.
Following traditional SR-style combats, if the opposition has a mage(s), a
quick (hurried) assensing will get the Phys Ad grouped in the "geek the mages"
first category. <Not a whine just an observation>.

>
>Muscle aug is nice to have, but still costs a lot of money, 180,000 for
>level 4. Which means having less of other toys, which I find infinitely
>more useful in many cases.
>
>>>Whew glad to get that off my chest. If any of the above was erroneous please
>>>correct me. Thanx!
>
>All of it...
>
Well, not quite, neh?

>>{snipped "Where's the bioware int enhancer"]
>
>Cerebral Booster...

> Ignoring Encaphalons, why can't the equivalent to the Bioware intel. boost
be > allowed.
This was my point from my initial letter, a magic recourse to boosting
intelligence.
>
snipped misconception of my point about losing magic

I'll try to make it a bit clearer.
If a phys ad gets the D wound loses a point of magic, cool, so be it.
Shit happens. Phys ad is now 1 magic point lower. Magic = 5, Essence = 6.
Depending on what ability(s) get hit by this the phys ad is not quite as . . .
quick, strong, able to see in the dark, effective at stealth, etc. .
So decides to put in bio/cyber less than 1 essence (including hiring a good doc
to put it in.)
Essence is now (oh say) 5.2. The Magic Rating is now 4.

>>Looking at all of this, other than for the sheer "neato" factor playing
a PA
>>just doesn't seem like a wise thing to do. (But I MUST have a high
"neato"
>>factor! and thus my enjoyment of PA's)
>
>PA's can get dozens of powers that samurai cannot duplicate with 'ware.
>They can start out with superior skills, don't get nailed by 'ware
>detectors, and don't have to worry about nasty healing mods.

I'll agree with you on some of the powers of a Phys Ad. Improve ability can
make a Phys Ad quite stealthy and deadly in 1 or 2 forms of combat.

Missle Parry - great if someone is throwing something or firing a bow. But
in the world of SR most assailants have guns.

Suspended State - trying to look at it in general and not from a combat POV
it's still fairly useless except in very rare/special cases.

A lot of the powers are nice but not overly useful except in rare cases.

James "Living Proof That X-files Really Do Exist" Nichols

"The only thing more frightening than a Troll with Killing Hands is . . .
A Troll with Killing Hands and a hangover."

From:	PDL@****.dacom.co.kr
Subject:	RE: WHOA THERE TOPKITTY
Date:	Sun, 28 Apr 96 12:13:40 PDT

Message no. 2 ---------------Original Message---------------
Following traditional SR-style combats, if the opposition has a mage(s), a
quick (hurried) assensing will get the Phys Ad grouped in the "geek the mages"
first category. <Not a whine just an observation>.

James "Living Proof That X-files Really Do Exist" Nichols

----------End of Original Message----------
I want to know how this works. If you assense a magician of any type who does not have
any active magic do you see anything? If magic does not have to be active to see it then
any magicians are detectable. PAs powers do not have advantage over ware if that is the
case.

Patrick

From:	TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject:	Re: WHOA THERE TOPKITTY
Date:	Sat, 27 Apr 1996 23:48:30 -0500

Message no. 3 >>>About Phys Ads
>
>>Oh man, does this kind of argument get me feeling evil...
>
>Listen cheeseball, there's no reason to get into such an adolescent snit about
>all of this. If ya got something to say, please by all means say "I
disagree",
>"I don't concur!" or "You're wrong because . . . ".
>A clear, concise statement goes a lot further than "<whining voice> Your
just a
>big crybaby, NA NA!" Please leave the attitude at the door.

There's been a great deal of debate since I came to the list (and I would
guess much more before) on the level of power that PA's begin with. Most of
it is due to PA players from 1st ed. having to play by 2nd ed. rules and
whining because they aren't as munch as they used to be. Some of it is due
to the misconception (and a strong and common one) that B magic should bring
mroe to the PA than it does.

I have a great deal of attitude on this because it goes beyond the balance
of the game. I would react much the same if someone said "Yeah, well I play
an immortal elf that is just like Harlequin, but I killed him and took his
power" or "My sammie has all delta-ware, a -15 essence, and cyberarms with 4
Ares MP Lasers in each".

But, because you may well not be one of those and I did jump out with
flamethrower lit, I'll apologize for my tone in the earlier post.

>Just to disect this a bit, Wired 3 gives 6 Reaction and 3d6: cost = 5 essence
> Inc. Reflexes gives 3d6 no Reaction: cost = 6 Magic

I also went on to explain how Wired 3 about guarantees shooting before
thinking ("That's the 5th waitress this week you aced") and lowers your
ability to be magically healed, and lowers your ability to add anything else
to your body, and costs 500,000 nuyen, and is detectable by cyberware
scanners, and can get you one helluva jail term, and will probably give you
very nasty after-effects when you get on in years. The PA's increased
reflexes don't have to mess with any of that.

>6 Reaction points is almost the equivalent to 2 extra dice (at a dice being
>worth 3.5 on average) and there's no randomness to it.
>(Phys Ad) 6 + 4d6 does not equal 12 + 4d6 (all other stats being equal)

Yeah, but the PA only spent B for his defining trait (magic) while the
samurai had to spend A for his (resources). Play a PM with an increase
reflexes +3 spell (or initiative or whatever it is) if you really need that
little bit of number. I'll also mention that that'll make you at the very
least equal to an A resource samurai but will cost you A magic, so it balances.

>Phys ad average Initiave (6+4*3.5)= 20
>Sam average Init. (wired 2) 10+ 3*3.5= 20.5
>On average the Sam is just a bit faster and less random

0.5 initiative (on average) cost him legality, resources, essence, and
everything I mentioned above...not a deal I like to take.

>>Or that you don't accidentally shoot people with
>>pumped-up PA reaction and initiative?

>Could you calmly (sans attitude) explain the last.

In Cybertechnology, there are rules on Wired Reflexes and Move By Wire
systems that make both very dangerous to own. Check out the book for info.

>If a phys ad gets the D wound loses a point of magic, cool, so be it.
>Shit happens. Phys ad is now 1 magic point lower. Magic = 5, Essence = 6.
>Depending on what ability(s) get hit by this the phys ad is not quite as . . .
>quick, strong, able to see in the dark, effective at stealth, etc. .
>So decides to put in bio/cyber less than 1 essence (including hiring a good doc
>to put it in.)
>Essence is now (oh say) 5.2. The Magic Rating is now 4.

It's just the way it works. Puts a little danger into the mix but stays
fair (mages would suddenly have a 4 magic and would probably take physical
drain from some spells while samurai can lose extra essence from surgery and
not make it off the table at all).

>>PA's can get dozens of powers that samurai cannot duplicate with 'ware.
>>They can start out with superior skills, don't get nailed by 'ware
>>detectors, and don't have to worry about nasty healing mods.

>I'll agree with you on some of the powers of a Phys Ad. Improve ability can
>make a Phys Ad quite stealthy and deadly in 1 or 2 forms of combat.

My favorite PA powers are killing hands, astral perception, increased
stealth, increased athletics, traceless walk, combat sense, enhanced
centering, improved physical senses (better than cyber), and missile
mastery. All of them lack a cyber-equal and all produce great results for
little cost.

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* The problem with this country today is that we're *
* getting almost as much government as we pay for. *
--------------------------------------------------------

From:	Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject:	Re: WHOA THERE TOPKITTY
Date:	Sat, 27 Apr 1996 22:54:06 GMT

Message no. 4 In message <199604272020.QAA17282@******.campus.mci.net> James Nichols writes:
> Just to disect this a bit, Wired 3 gives 6 Reaction and 3d6: cost = 5 essence
> Inc. Reflexes gives 3d6 no Reaction: cost = 6 Magic

Wired Reflexes 3 + cyberdetector = Vegas Jackpot-like flashing lights and
ringing bells. Physical adept Increase Reflexes = wander through, grinning
happily. Oh, yeah, you forgot the +5 modifier on Treat and Heal spells
from all that Essence loss.

Suddenly, it doesn't look so bad, does it?

> Phys ad average Initiave (6+4*3.5)= 20
> Sam average Init. (wired 2) 10+ 3*3.5= 20.5
> On average the Sam is just a bit faster and less random

Cyberware detectors, healing magic, cyberware damage, off the top of my
head, why the physad is still winning.

> Sure Phys Ad's can use ware, go no problem with that. Most high-end places
> with cyberware scanners are probably going to have magic assensers (sp?) to
> mark incoming mage-types. Could you calmly (sans attitude) explain the last.
> Following traditional SR-style combats, if the opposition has a mage(s), a
> quick (hurried) assensing will get the Phys Ad grouped in the "geek the
mages"
> first category. <Not a whine just an observation>.

No, the physad - at worst - goes in the "might be fast and armed, get him
after you get the mage" category with the samurai. And Physads get the
option, with initiation, of masking their aura. When does a cyberguy get
to do that?

It's been said so often, and it's still true. Samurai are better at brute
force. Physical adepts work best at subtlety in the margins. 1st Edition
physads were travesties: with a munchkin player, as bad as magicians.
Second Ed physads lose out compared to before. The game is better for it.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude
towards him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem.
For better or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." R. A. Lafferty

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject:	RE: WHOA THERE TOPKITTY
Date:	Mon, 29 Apr 96 00:11:41 +1030

Message no. 5 >I want to know how this works. If you assense a magician of any type who
>does not have any active magic do you see anything? If magic does not
>have to be active to see it then any magicians are detectable. PAs powers
>do not have advantage over ware if that is the case.

Any magic-capable person has an aura which indicates this. With a quick
look, an assensing individual can determine if the person is magically
active or not, and most GMs allow a person to determine if the target is
a full magician, or an adept (and what flavour of adept). Closer
examination of the aura can indicate what tradition the target follows.

Masking of course invalidates all of the above. :)

--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/

From:	Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject:	Re: WHOA THERE TOPKITTY
Date:	Mon, 29 Apr 96 00:11:57 +1030

Message no. 6 >It's been said so often, and it's still true. Samurai are better at brute
>force. Physical adepts work best at subtlety in the margins. 1st Edition
>physads were travesties: with a munchkin player, as bad as magicians.
>Second Ed physads lose out compared to before. The game is better for it.

Hear hear... Physads and bioware sams make for much more subtle
campaigns, which allow a lot more things. Getting your typical street
monster _into_ an airport, let alone on a plane, involves so many run
throughs of "Can you please show us your permit for that, mister?"

--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.

From:	"A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: WHOA THERE TOPKITTY
Date:	Sun, 28 Apr 1996 20:16:57 +0100 (BST)

Message no. 7 |Any magic-capable person has an aura which indicates this. With a quick
|look, an assensing individual can determine if the person is magically
|active or not, and most GMs allow a person to determine if the target is
|a full magician, or an adept (and what flavour of adept). Closer
|examination of the aura can indicate what tradition the target follows.

In addition, in games I've played in and run, you see the astral image of
the mage..... (Chosen by the player (or GM for NPCs) on creation...)

For example, one of my characters, Inferno, looks like a burning man on the
Astral plane.

This also reflects the short piece of fiction in ShR II, when explaining the
astral plane.

(The one with the mage and his apprentice. The mage is an old man
physically, but astrally he looks strong, powerfull, muscular, etc....)

|Masking of course invalidates all of the above. :)

Of course....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject:	Re: WHOA THERE TOPKITTY
Date:	Sun, 28 Apr 1996 15:30:58 -0500

Message no. 8 >> Following traditional SR-style combats, if the opposition has a mage(s), a
>> quick (hurried) assensing will get the Phys Ad grouped in the "geek the
mages"
>> first category. <Not a whine just an observation>.

>No, the physad - at worst - goes in the "might be fast and armed, get him
>after you get the mage" category with the samurai. And Physads get the
>option, with initiation, of masking their aura. When does a cyberguy get
>to do that?

In our groups, PAs and samurai end up in the same class when it comes to
attacking. If one person seems to be doing a lot of damage, they'll earn a
round of pain in which most of the opposition will target them.

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* The problem with this country today is that we're *
* getting almost as much government as we pay for. *
--------------------------------------------------------

From:	Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject:	Re: WHOA THERE TOPKITTY
Date:	Mon, 29 Apr 1996 00:36:44 GMT

Message no. 9 In message <9604282030.AA04843@**.cencom.net> TopCat writes:
> In our groups, PAs and samurai end up in the same class when it comes to
> attacking. If one person seems to be doing a lot of damage, they'll earn a
> round of pain in which most of the opposition will target them.

Yeah, this sort of goes without saying. "Kill *that* one!" Get seen to
be the combat monster and - mage, sammie, merc, physad - you're the
priority target. It used to shake down to magicians, Troll-With-Big-Gun,
anyone reacting fast, The Rest for initial target allocation: then adapt
as necessary to the circumstances.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude
towards him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem.
For better or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." R. A. Lafferty

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	"Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: WHOA THERE TOPKITTY
Date:	Mon, 29 Apr 1996 14:20:51 GMT

Message no. 10 TopCat writes

>
> >Phys ad average Initiave (6+4*3.5)= 20
> >Sam average Init. (wired 2) 10+ 3*3.5= 20.5
> >On average the Sam is just a bit faster and less random
>
> 0.5 initiative (on average) cost him legality, resources, essence, and
> everything I mentioned above...not a deal I like to take.
>
Again SR magic baets tech for sublety, but you really cannot outdo
wired reflxes and a big gun for 'charge in a blow them all away'
however the latter has a small hitch for runners, you see the corp
has 100 more goons where the last one came from, now how many times
are you going to get resurected...... ah thought as much.

> >I'll agree with you on some of the powers of a Phys Ad. Improve ability can
> >make a Phys Ad quite stealthy and deadly in 1 or 2 forms of combat.
>
> My favorite PA powers are killing hands, astral perception,
> increased stealth,
A skill that due to game mechanics is good but only in large doses,
and of course this power lets PA's get about twice as much as anyone
else, and the magic cost is not bad at all.

> increased athletics, traceless walk,
> combat sense,
I consider that one expensive for what you get, i would rate an
initation grade and masked +4 attribute or combat sense spell from a
local mage (though that costs him karma)

> enhanced centering,
Superb, oh so i'm hurt, center off penalties, oh +2 for two targets
with one melee attack, not anymore! Likewise vs enemy reach. Costs
like mad but very very handy.

>improved physical senses (better than cyber)
Yes you get the 'inate' column as per metahumans i think.

>, and missile
> mastery. All of them lack a cyber-equal and all produce great results for
> little cost.
>

Mark

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