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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: why callibres work (was speaking of ballistics)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:00:02 2002
For those who haven't heard of .227 it is (or was by my last information)
the callibre of the colt m-16, equivalent to 5.56(or whatever)mm.

The reason a .30 callibre bullet from an MMG is more damaging than a .50 cal
slug from a heavy pistol is that callibre isn't the only factor. Callibre,
for those who don't know much about guns, is the effective diameter of the
bullet, the reason it is not the only important thing in determining damage
is also the reason you tend to find that although pistols tend to be of
larger callibre than rifles, rifle bullets (inc cartridge) are considerably
larger. For a start rifles fire longer (and therefore heavier bullets)
pistol slugs tend to be only a little longer than they are "wide"; Magnum
slugs are considerably longer, (almost twice as long as they are "wide"
IIRC) rifle slugs are longer again. Longer slugs weigh more and therefore
cause more damage. Muzzle velocity is also a factor to consider.


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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: why callibres work (was speaking of ballistics)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:40:01 2002
LE.,


> For those who haven't heard of .227 it is (or was by my last information)
> the callibre of the colt m-16, equivalent to 5.56(or whatever)mm.

That's .223, I believe. In your email, however, you listed .277, which was the
source of confusion. It might have been possible that .277 was some new-fangled
AR caliber or something. I haven't really paid too much attention to small arms
developments since I left the army.

Xian.
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: why callibres work (was speaking of ballistics)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:45:01 2002
> It might have been possible that .277 was some new-
> fangled
> AR caliber or something. I haven't really paid too much attention to
> small arms
> developments since I left the army.
>
> Xian.

Umm....no .227 as far as I'm aware and I'm just now getting out of the
army (god it feels SOOOOOO good to be free)

Derek
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (malcolm)
Subject: why callibres work (was speaking of ballistics)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:20:02 2002
> For those who haven't heard of .227 it is (or was by my last information)
> the callibre of the colt m-16, equivalent to 5.56(or whatever)mm.
>
> The reason a .30 callibre bullet from an MMG is more damaging than a .50
cal
> slug from a heavy pistol is that callibre isn't the only factor. Callibre,
> for those who don't know much about guns, is the effective diameter of the
> bullet, the reason it is not the only important thing in determining
damage
> is also the reason you tend to find that although pistols tend to be of
> larger callibre than rifles, rifle bullets (inc cartridge) are
considerably
> larger. For a start rifles fire longer (and therefore heavier bullets)
> pistol slugs tend to be only a little longer than they are "wide"; Magnum
> slugs are considerably longer, (almost twice as long as they are "wide"
> IIRC) rifle slugs are longer again. Longer slugs weigh more and therefore
> cause more damage. Muzzle velocity is also a factor to consider.

the slug weight on a rifle is comparitively the same as that of a pistol ,
the bullet weight is different , the rifle holds more propellant and uses
funneling of the case to narrow the propellant force into a smaller area ,
creating a faster propellant power , it then propels a "slug" of approx.
same weight along a longer barrel , so the slug gets time to accelerate more
while the gases are moving forward ,

end result the slug is really moving along when shot from a rifle , this
gives excellent penetration and tends to travel through the target and
happily onward
this leaves the target with a nice hole and it is decidedly more accurate ,
but releases very little kinetic energy upon your target , so unless you hit
something vital it's just a hole

handguns on the other hand kick out a higher calibre slug ( i like my
antiques so lets say a .455 webley or 10.4mm glisenti ) this is a slow
moving slug , it does not have as much propellant and has less time to
accelerate before the gases are made less effective , the slug hits the
target and at times does not penetrate leaving nasty pieces of slug to be
picked out by whoever wants to scrape the guy off the floor

end result , the slower slug actually gets a chance to release some of that
kinetic energy it has been building up upon the first thing it hits , the
large slug does a real nasty on the offending target and leaves little to be
desired in the way of damage but a lot to be desired in the way of
penetration and accuracy ,

differing ammo ( non straight lead slugs or copper jackets) are used to make
up for the deficiency in one system or the other or to make the plus points
really nasty , locally they produce a ranger-s round sort of hollowpointish
, but known to leaf back on hitting a target makes a real mess particularly
when you consider it is made for handguns

the official calibre of 5.56mm is .222 , or .223 depending on the nation of
your abode
derek enjoy life as a free man

Kanniemeernie , Korperaal
"it's your standard issue big gun , the equipment section
made it , but now it's part of my ...private collection "
bateua - ghost in the shell
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Achille Autran)
Subject: why callibres work (was speaking of ballistics)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:55:01 2002
>From: "Lone Eagle" <loneeagle2061@*******.com>
>
>For those who haven't heard of .227 it is (or was by my last information)
>the callibre of the colt m-16, equivalent to 5.56(or whatever)mm.

It's .223 Remington actually, which became 5.56x45 NATO after its adoption
by the organization.

>The reason a .30 callibre bullet from an MMG is more damaging than a .50 cal
>slug from a heavy pistol is that callibre isn't the only factor. Callibre,
>for those who don't know much about guns, is the effective diameter of the
>bullet, the reason it is not the only important thing in determining damage
>is also the reason you tend to find that although pistols tend to be of
>larger callibre than rifles, rifle bullets (inc cartridge) are considerably
>larger. For a start rifles fire longer (and therefore heavier bullets)
>pistol slugs tend to be only a little longer than they are "wide"; Magnum
>slugs are considerably longer, (almost twice as long as they are "wide"
>IIRC) rifle slugs are longer again. Longer slugs weigh more and therefore
>cause more damage. Muzzle velocity is also a factor to consider.

Terminal ballistics are a complex subject, and you can't sum it up with
weight and velocity - even if kinetic energy (Ke=1/2mv²) is a good
indicator. BTW, small caliber rifle bullets like 5.56 weight less than most
pistol rounds (55 grains vs 124 grains for 9mm parabellum, 7.62 is only 150
grs), and yet have a much higher wounding capacity thanks to high velocity
- doubling velocity means quadrupling energy. The shape of a high velocity
rifle bullet is trade-off between aerodyamic properties (long and shapely
bullets fly better) and terminal ballistics properties (thin and hard
bullets penetrate hard targets better but have a high chance of
overpenetrating flesh, while thick and soft bullets tranfer most of their
energy to the target.) The way serious wounds are inflincted (tumbling for
FMJ bullets vs. fragmenting and mushrooming for "soft" lead bullets) are
also a factor, as well as the amount of flesh it takes for the bullet to
start tumbling or fragmenting.

In fact, a 7.62 bullet could go straight through that skinny elf, causing a
moderate wound, but tumble and totally ruin a troll thick members.
Therefore, being fat/heavily built is not necessarily an advantage for
damage soaking. That's why armor piercing bullets, and even more APDS ammo,
create relatively moderate flesh wounds: they start tumbling and create
dready mess inside the body only after travelling across something on
average much thicker and/or harder than the human body.

One could even say firearms wounds are essentialy random, depending on
where the bullet hits and its inner travel, rather than any capacity of the
poor person on the wrong end of the gun. In that regard, critical rolls
like those in Rolemaster or a system like, from what Gurth described,
Phoenix Command, are more realistic than Shadowrun, hit points systems, and
any game where there is a soaking roll. That makes for systems definitely
not cinematic though...

You'll find much more details and precisions about terminal ballistics in
the following documents (again lifted off Raygun's page):

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/termball.html
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html

and a google search about "terminal ballistics" will probably yield an
insane number of results.

Molloy
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: why callibres work (was speaking of ballistics)
Date: Tue Apr 23 04:10:01 2002
>From: Christian Casavant <christian@********.org>
> > For those who haven't heard of .227 it is (or was by my last > >
>information)
> > the callibre of the colt m-16, equivalent to 5.56(or whatever)mm.
>
>That's .223, I believe. In your email, however, you listed .277, >which
>was the
>source of confusion. It might have been possible that .277 was some
> >new-fangled
>AR caliber or something. I haven't really paid too much attention to
> >small arms
>developments since I left the army.

Can I claim a typo on that one then?

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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: why callibres work (was speaking of ballistics)
Date: Tue Apr 23 04:35:00 2002
LE,.

> Can I claim a typo on that one then?

Sure, no problem! But you only have a typo pool of one which won't get
refreshed until you earn additional posting karma.

Xian.
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: why callibres work (was speaking of ballistics)
Date: Tue Apr 23 05:45:01 2002
According to Achille Autran, on Mon, 22 Apr 2002 the word on the street was...

> One could even say firearms wounds are essentialy random, depending on
> where the bullet hits and its inner travel, rather than any capacity of
> the poor person on the wrong end of the gun. In that regard, critical
> rolls like those in Rolemaster or a system like, from what Gurth
> described, Phoenix Command, are more realistic than Shadowrun hit points
> systems, and any game where there is a soaking roll.

Phoenix Command, if you use the Advanced Damage Tables supplement, lets you
track which organs get punctured by the bullet as it goes through your
body... The only real problem with it, if you like super-detailed games, is
that a hit in a given body location with a given firearm will always cause
the same amount of damage, as there is no random factor involved beyond
establishing the precise hit location.

Not sure if Rolemaster is such an ideal system for realism, though. From what
I've seen (I really need to buy the rules for it someday), the criticals are
very cinematic and not all that realistic -- a good example would be what
someone in my group described from when his previous group played RM: someone
dying from a single bite by a ferret in heat :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
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