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Message no. 1
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 00:18:15 -0400
>ED had the misfortune of being released in 1993, 'the year of the rpg'.
>It had some serious competition including Mage (which outsold Vampire)
>and at least 6 other games. If it had come out in 92 or 94 it would have
>had more breathing room.

ED was a good game.
However it was hampered by a rules system that while VERY elegant, and far
more balanced than most other rpg's on the market - had too steep a learning
curve.

I've had the first edition hardback of ED since it came out, and I STILL am
not clear on a LOT of the rules of the game.
I barely know a step from a circle.

The truth of the matter is that ED rules system has always reminded me of
the DC Heroes RPG, and the old Traveller system.
No ... that's NOT a compliment.

There are other reasons (including my own pet theory on the "FRP Conspiracy
of '93") that ED failed, but the big one was that it was inaccessibile to a
good number of gamers.
If you're going to compete with AD&D you can't afford to have potential
customers look at your rules and say, "Ahhh .... screw it. I'll just run
Keep on the Borderlands again."

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"God is my co-pilot, but the Devil is my bombardier."
Message no. 2
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:09:10 -0700
> There are other reasons (including my own pet theory on the "FRP Conspiracy
> of '93") that ED failed, but the big one was that it was inaccessibile to a
> good number of gamers.

A really big reason there was nothing that could save ED IMO was the
lack or real advertising..That problem infects all of the lines for
FASA as well as other companies..Yea sure..all us gamers know about
the lines..and even obscure one shot systems..BUT..Real..Nope wrong
word..Norm...No..Regular people haven't got a clue that RPing
exists..For that matter those that have half a clue don't realise
that there are other games beyond D&D much less that D&D still exists
as a gaming world..So how the heck are they expecting to draw/drag in
new customers..The only game I have ever seen advertised in TV is
AD&D..and Magic TCCG [flat crack]..That was a long time ago and I
believe that the advertising was restricted to the local area..IF a
company wants to keep a game alive they have to advertise it..I still
see adverts for Life and Monopoly on TV..Who are our gaming companies
to think they don't have to do this too...Ok..I'll stop ranting..but
I have seen more things dissapear due to this fundamental rule of
business..Nobody will buy things they don't know about..
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Who Do You Trust? And, Who Do You Serve? - Galen
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 3
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:36:40 EDT
In a message dated 9/10/1999 6:18:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
granite@**.net writes:

> A really big reason there was nothing that could save ED IMO was the
> lack or real advertising..That problem infects all of the lines for
> FASA as well as other companies..Yea sure..all us gamers know about
> the lines..and even obscure one shot systems..BUT..Real..Nope wrong
> word..Norm...No..Regular people haven't got a clue that RPing
> exists..For that matter those that have half a clue don't realise
> that there are other games beyond D&D much less that D&D still exists
> as a gaming world..So how the heck are they expecting to draw/drag in
> new customers..The only game I have ever seen advertised in TV is
> AD&D..and Magic TCCG [flat crack]..That was a long time ago and I
> believe that the advertising was restricted to the local area..IF a
> company wants to keep a game alive they have to advertise it..I still
> see adverts for Life and Monopoly on TV..Who are our gaming companies
> to think they don't have to do this too...Ok..I'll stop ranting..but
> I have seen more things dissapear due to this fundamental rule of
> business..Nobody will buy things they don't know about..

Just some FYI here Granite, the new commercials for Magic the Gathering are
being played, and carried by the cable carriers themselves even, not
necessarily the networks.

-K
Message no. 4
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:38:05 -0700
On Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:09:10 -0700 "GRANITE" <granite@**.net> writes:
<SNIP>
> A really big reason there was nothing that could save ED IMO was the
> lack or real advertising..
<SNIP>

I personally feel that what "killed" ED was its similarity to AD&D ... a
Fantasy RP closely tied to levels with an official set limit on
advancement (In AD&D, maximum level; in ED, maximum circle). Outside the
ED devotees, most RPGers (in my opinion/experience) want to play AD&D or
get away from it. The first group most likely won't get into ED because
they already play something similar. The second group most likely won't
get into ED because ED resembles too much what they are trying to get
away from. As a result, EDs sales will primarily be augmented by those
who are very open-minded to games or do not get very devoted to a given
RPG. As such, ED sales were low.

IMO, what would have saved ED would have been to keep what makes SR,
(IMO) great ... the lack of levels. If ED had SR's possibility of
infinite advancement, it would have appealed, IMO, to a greater audience
and thus faired better.

In case I didn't stress this enough, this is all IMO and based on my
perceptions (BOMP).

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 5
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 12:05:21 -0700
> I personally feel that what "killed" ED was its similarity to AD&D ...
a
> Fantasy RP closely tied to levels with an official set limit on
> advancement (In AD&D, maximum level; in ED, maximum circle).

<snip>

> IMO, what would have saved ED would have been to keep what makes SR,
> (IMO) great ... the lack of levels. If ED had SR's possibility of
> infinite advancement, it would have appealed, IMO, to a greater audience
> and thus faired better.
>
> In case I didn't stress this enough, this is all IMO and based on my
> perceptions (BOMP).

Based on my perception, there's no way in hells 9 circles that any ED
player ever whined about "not having anywhere to go / spend his expereince
points". Reaching a high circle is really hard to do- you will NEVER max
out, unless your game is really truely atypical. Instead, what you
tend to do is broaden yuor character out into other areas. Or you die-
that happens often enough, even to "powerful" ED PC's.
But you may still be right- this is something you see after playing it for
a while, and yours could easily be a common perception. The fact that
abilties are fairly tightly dictated by "class" is a stronger limitation,
and one that SR more successfully avoids.
Personally, I think the SR / ED link was bad for ED. More than once, I
heard ED described as "SR without guns and cyber", the immediate response
of
the listener being "yuck, who'd want to play that?"
Sigh....

Personally, I sometimes wish SR advancement was a bit more like ED. In
ED, your character often can advance a little bit every playing session,
but it doesn't drastically change the nature of your campaign once
characters reach a certain level of power. The game is set up to handle
the advancement.
I'll have to see how this goes in SR3, but I know in SR2, advancement was
both pretty slow and yet still somewhat disruptive. I don't know how it
could be better though... Any suggestions? Is it amount of kamra that
matters, karma to cash ratios, or just how it all gets spent, or what?

Mongoose
Message no. 6
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 18:03:26 -0700
At 22:36 9/10/99 -0400, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

>Just some FYI here Granite, the new commercials for Magic the Gathering are
>being played, and carried by the cable carriers themselves even, not
>necessarily the networks.

Wizards of the Coast is sponsoring the upcoming World Wrestling Federation
Pay-Per-View, Unforgiven.

It feels really weird to hear "Magic: The Gathering" while watching the
best two hours of television on the planet.

Adam
--
< adamj@*********.html.com / http://shadowrun.html.com/tss >
< ICQ# 2350330 / ShadowFAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / Shadowrun Creative Resources >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
Message no. 7
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:32:15 -0700
Adam J wrote:

> At 22:36 9/10/99 -0400, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
>
> >Just some FYI here Granite, the new commercials for Magic the Gathering are
> >being played, and carried by the cable carriers themselves even, not
> >necessarily the networks.
>
> Wizards of the Coast is sponsoring the upcoming World Wrestling Federation
> Pay-Per-View, Unforgiven.
>
> It feels really weird to hear "Magic: The Gathering" while watching the
> best two hours of television on the planet.

Aren't you a BIT old for a pathetic example of a live-action cartoon, Adam?:

John
Message no. 8
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 23:12:02 EDT
In a message dated 9/11/1999 7:04:40 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
adamj@*********.html.com writes:

> Wizards of the Coast is sponsoring the upcoming World Wrestling Federation
> Pay-Per-View, Unforgiven.
>
> It feels really weird to hear "Magic: The Gathering" while watching the
> best two hours of television on the planet.

Okay folks, this is a small marketing "sign". If This kind of marketing
activity is occuring, then the entire gaming Genre is about to get a boost.
I think it's going to make the future look *VERY* interesting.

-K
Message no. 9
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 10:42:34 -0700
>...... Any suggestions? Is it amount of kamra that
> matters, karma to cash ratios, or just how it all gets spent, or what?

It has been my experience that it varies from player to player..As to
what it more important for their character..and in the end it is how
the player spends it all to make a well rounded character
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Who Do You Trust? And, Who Do You Serve? - Galen
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 10
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 10:42:33 -0700
> Just some FYI here Granite, the new commercials for Magic the Gathering are
> being played, and carried by the cable carriers themselves even, not
> necessarily the networks.

And I am sure that Flat Crack will enjoy a new resurgance in sales
because of it..I know that my youngest son has within the last 4 to 6
months become interested in it..And I tried to get him interested
while such things were still riding their first wave of popularity..I
just wish FASA would take a lesson from this and do the same for its
RPG lines..
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Who Do You Trust? And, Who Do You Serve? - Galen
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 11
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 10:42:35 -0700
> Wizards of the Coast is sponsoring the upcoming World Wrestling Federation
> Pay-Per-View, Unforgiven.

Which is the smartest thing that any gaming company could ever
do..appeal to a group that large that is already open to fantasy
[Wrestling itself] and show them another area fantasy can be
incoorporated into their lives..
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Who Do You Trust? And, Who Do You Serve? - Galen
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 12
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 12:27:54 -0700
On Sat, 11 Sep 1999 12:05:21 -0700 "Sebastian Wiers"
<m0ng005e@*********.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Based on my perception, there's no way in hells 9 circles that any ED
> player ever whined about "not having anywhere to go / spend his
expereince
> points". Reaching a high circle is really hard to do- you will NEVER
max
> out, unless your game is really truely atypical. Instead, what you
> tend to do is broaden yuor character out into other areas. Or you
die-
> that happens often enough, even to "powerful" ED PC's.

So you're saying every game starts with beginning characters? What I
mean is regardless of where the limit is or how hard it is to reach the
limit (it's not easy to reach 20th level in AD&D let alone 30th), the
fact that the limit exists is a drawback

> But you may still be right- this is something you see after playing
it for
> a while, and yours could easily be a common perception. The fact that
> abilties are fairly tightly dictated by "class" is a stronger
limitation,
> and one that SR more successfully avoids.

Another parallel to AD&D ...

> Personally, I think the SR / ED link was bad for ED. More than once,
I
> heard ED described as "SR without guns and cyber", the immediate
response of
> the listener being "yuck, who'd want to play that?"
> Sigh....

Conceptually, that's kind of what it was ... (Game) Mechanically it's
like AD&D mated with AD&D.

> Personally, I sometimes wish SR advancement was a bit more like ED.
In
> ED, your character often can advance a little bit every playing
session,
> but it doesn't drastically change the nature of your campaign once
> characters reach a certain level of power. The game is set up to
handle
> the advancement.

Well, in SR, it's hard (IMO) to get that level of poweer ... you're
certainly not going to get it by skill alone ... the number of dice roll
compared to the chance of getting the target number is not proportional
growth. The cost compared to return will get out of hand.

> I'll have to see how this goes in SR3, but I know in SR2, advancement
was
> both pretty slow and yet still somewhat disruptive. I don't know how
it
> could be better though... Any suggestions? Is it amount of kamra
that
> matters, karma to cash ratios, or just how it all gets spent, or what?

Why would it change?

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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Message no. 13
From: Number Ten Ox number_10_ox@**********.com
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:33:37 -0700 (PDT)
---"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.com> wrote:
>
> ED was a good game.
> However it was hampered by a rules system that while VERY elegant, and far
> more balanced than most other rpg's on the market - had too steep a
> learning curve.

Huh? Uhm... that has not been my experience at all.

I run two games with the same gaming group: Earthdawn and Shadowrun. Most
of the people in my gaming group -- 4 out of 6 -- are in the games for
the sake of roleplaying: thus, one of the most common comments during the
Shadowrun game is "What the hell do I roll for that again?"

There hasn't been a single comment of that sort in the Earthdawn game.
Not a single one. Everyone understands the system.

I look at Earthdawn. Then I look at the learning curve for both GM and
player for something like... Shadowrun decking. Or Shadowrun magic. Or the
Shadowrun combat system. Compared to them, Earthdawn's learning curve is
downright *flat*.

> If you're going to compete with AD&D you can't afford to have potential
> customers look at your rules and say, "Ahhh .... screw it. I'll just run
> Keep on the Borderlands again."

Mmmm. I see. Earthdawn's learning curve was indeed steeper than AD&D's.
Not by much, but steeper. In that, I'll agree with you. Still, the sheer
elegance of the system should have made sure it sold better than it did.

Ah well.

> Steven A. Tinner
> bluewizard@*****.com

--Number 10 Ox.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 14
From: Mad Hamish h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:04:28 +1000
At 22:38 10/09/99 -0700, dghost@****.com wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:09:10 -0700 "GRANITE" <granite@**.net> writes:
><SNIP>
>> A really big reason there was nothing that could save ED IMO was the
>> lack or real advertising..
><SNIP>
>
>I personally feel that what "killed" ED was its similarity to AD&D ... a
>Fantasy RP closely tied to levels with an official set limit on
>advancement (In AD&D, maximum level; in ED, maximum circle).

AD&D does not have a maximum level.

Earthdawn does have a maximum level but in 4 years of campaigning at least
once a week we had a couple of characters reach 9th circle...

> Outside the
>ED devotees, most RPGers (in my opinion/experience) want to play AD&D or
>get away from it. The first group most likely won't get into ED because
>they already play something similar. The second group most likely won't
>get into ED because ED resembles too much what they are trying to get
>away from.

Hence the incredible lack of success of Palladium fantasy and other
class/level based systems.

Earthdawn disciplines don't have the same idea as D&D classes and they do
make more sense.
--
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 15
From: Mad Hamish h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:04:46 +1000
At 06:33 13/09/99 -0700, Number Ten Ox wrote:
>---"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.com> wrote:
>>
>> ED was a good game.
>> However it was hampered by a rules system that while VERY elegant, and far
>> more balanced than most other rpg's on the market - had too steep a
>> learning curve.
>
> Huh? Uhm... that has not been my experience at all.

I'd say the learning curve is way flatter than damned near anything else.

A player has to know that his step is
Attribute Step + Rank + (maybe bonuses) & check the dice to be used.

>
>> If you're going to compete with AD&D you can't afford to have potential
>> customers look at your rules and say, "Ahhh .... screw it. I'll just run
>> Keep on the Borderlands again."
>
> Mmmm. I see. Earthdawn's learning curve was indeed steeper than AD&D's.
>Not by much, but steeper.

I disagree. ED had _1_ basic mechanic for everything. D&D has so many
different mechanics thrown together.

> In that, I'll agree with you. Still, the sheer
>elegance of the system should have made sure it sold better than it did.
--
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 16
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:10:16 -0700
On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:04:28 +1000 Mad Hamish
<h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au> writes:
> At 22:38 10/09/99 -0700, dghost@****.com wrote:
<SNIP>
> >I personally feel that what "killed" ED was its similarity to AD&D
...
a
> >Fantasy RP closely tied to levels with an official set limit on
> >advancement (In AD&D, maximum level; in ED, maximum circle).

> AD&D does not have a maximum level.

Pick 20th level or 30th level with DM's Option: High Level Campaigns. If
anything extended it further, I don't know about it. 31+ level in AD&D
is god (lowercase 'g') level and isn't supported officially. ED has the
same thing ... 9th circle/ 13th (14th?) circle with the ED Companion.
Sure, you can theoretically advance higher but it's not supported.

> Earthdawn does have a maximum level but in 4 years of campaigning at
least
> once a week we had a couple of characters reach 9th circle...

This took me a bit to figure out ... I though you meant each week during
four years of campaigning, at least a couple characters advanced to
nineth circle ... mighty high power level :)

<SNIP>

> Hence the incredible lack of success of Palladium fantasy and other
> class/level based systems.

I don't know ... I like the RMSS and as far as I know it is at least
doing decently ... I'm certain it's not doing as well as it should be
doing (However, I'm certain AD&D is doing better than it should be doing
;). I think RMSS's strength is the flexibility that neither AD&D nor ED
had. The "classes" in RMSS are more mindsets than anything else and as
such don't really preclude you from learning anything anyone else can.
Instead, the profession (RMSS's "class") determines how dificult it is to
learn something. You can have a fighter that can't even hold his own in
a fight and a Magician who is a master swordsman galavanting about in
plate armor (though his magic WILL suffer).

> Earthdawn disciplines don't have the same idea as D&D classes and they
do
> make more sense.

I see ED's Disciplines as merely fleshed out versions of AD&D classes. :/

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Why ED failed (Was - Deciper press release link)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:55:37 +0200
According to Mad Hamish, at 11:04 on 16 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Earthdawn disciplines don't have the same idea as D&D classes and they do
> make more sense.

That's more because they explain the classes and everything else in the
game world rather than leave them as game mechanics, IMHO. AD&D mentions
in several places that people don't refer to themselves as "4th level
neutral evil wizards" in the game world -- so why do the rules make such a
big deal out of the class and alignment system, then? In ED, however,
characters _do_ describe themselves as "4th circle wizards" because it's a
"rating" system used in the world as well as the rules. The net result, I
feel, is a game that's easier to believe in.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Vraag niet om de terugkeer
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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