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Message no. 1
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:10:07 -0600
Here John, this ought to fire up the list ;)

I don't play Shadowrun anymore. I haven't played it in about 3 years.

When Shadowrun first came out it was incredible, not because of the
rules, but because of the world. Magic and cybertechnology and big
guns and humans, trolls, orcs, elves, and dwarves, all trying to
survive in a somewhat post apocolypic world where data was the only
real commodity. It ruled.

There were problems with the rules, but it didn't matter because that
was part of the fun of the game (trolls in our campaign played shotgun
tag because they couldn't hurt eachother with shotguns, it was loud,
and it was fun).

Along came 2nd edition. The problems in 1st edition were fixed, and
new paradoxes were created (FAB anyone?). But it was okay because it
was still Shadowrun. And then the supplements started coming out.

At first I was a big fan of the supplements for cyberware, bioware,
vehicles, and magic. But what I didn't realize at the time was that I
was getting bogged down in rules and that my campaign was suffering
for it. Instead of writing down notes for adventure ideas I was madly
scribbling ideas to fix the new problems.

Enter 3rd edition. It fixed a lot of problems, but then all of the
supplements had to be updated, and there were a *lot* of changes, and
a lot of creative new rules. Somewhere along the way the balance had
shifted and the Shadowrun universe had shrunk while the rules grew,
and grew, and grew. And there wasn't any real consistency; different
rules for combat, different rules for astral space, different rules
for vehicles (both design and combat), and so on.

I gave up trying to keep up with it all. All of the rule changes just
became to much for me and there just wasn't enough world building to
outweigh that.

IMHO few games are in more need of d20 conversion than Shadowrun. I
would like to see Shadowrun simplified and consistent and see more of
what made it Shadowrun in the first place.

<sits calmly on Gurth's couch, munching popcorn>

--
-Graht
Message no. 2
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:27:34 -0700
On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:10:07 -0600
Graht <graht1@*****.com> wrote:
> Here John, this ought to fire up the list ;)
>
[snip]

> IMHO few games are in more need of d20 conversion than Shadowrun. I
> would like to see Shadowrun simplified and consistent and see more of
> what made it Shadowrun in the first place.
>
> <sits calmly on Gurth's couch, munching popcorn>
>
> --
> -Graht

I agree with you up to a point, I'd certainly like to see SR have certain
standard D20 skills. But last time I said that I got pounded, so I'll not
elaborate too much. However, I have fun playing SR almost despite the more
egregious deiails in some of the supps.
--Anders
Message no. 3
From: bandwidthoracle@*********.net (Bandwidth oracle)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:33:59 -0600
On Sep 8, 2004, at 3:10 PM, Graht wrote:
<Snip>
> Enter 3rd edition. It fixed a lot of problems, but then all of the
> supplements had to be updated, and there were a *lot* of changes, and
> a lot of creative new rules. Somewhere along the way the balance had
> shifted and the Shadowrun universe had shrunk while the rules grew,
> and grew, and grew. And there wasn't any real consistency; different
> rules for combat, different rules for astral space, different rules
> for vehicles (both design and combat), and so on.
>
> I gave up trying to keep up with it all. All of the rule changes just
> became to much for me and there just wasn't enough world building to
> outweigh that.
>
> IMHO few games are in more need of d20 conversion than Shadowrun. I
> would like to see Shadowrun simplified and consistent and see more of
> what made it Shadowrun in the first place.
>
> <sits calmly on Gurth's couch, munching popcorn>
>
> --
> -Graht
>
I'm very new to Shadowrun, so I don't know about 1st or 2nd Shadowrun.
However, from my point of view the diversity of rules is one of the
things that makes
Shadowrun a great game. Each different rule set fits the situation it
simulates like a glove.
Instead of DnD which (totally my opinion, nothing to back it up but
personal experience) handles
everything the same and doesn't make anything "feel" right, except
melee combat.
(Again the above is totally opinion)

At least for my group the rules help set the mood. The decking system
makes the game seem tense,
whereas the vehicle combat rules make it feel much more like watching a
chase scene in a movie.

I think that it would be a mistake to try to put all the rules into a
universal Shadowrun format,
and I would be sad to see Shadowrun give up a perfectly good D6 system
to go to D20, which
would either change the rules until it didn't feel the same, or make me
buy a whole ton of D20s.
(Imagine having to have 6 D20's to roll sorcery, I'd have to re-stock
my dice bag.)
This is all my opinion, if you totally love DnD and other D20 games,
please don't take offense.
-Bandwidthoracle
Message no. 4
From: nichlas.hummelsberger@*****.com (Nichlas Hummelsberger)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 23:37:31 +0200
On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:10:07 -0600, Graht <graht1@*****.com> wrote:
> I gave up trying to keep up with it all. All of the rule changes just
> became to much for me and there just wasn't enough world building to
> outweigh that.

My solution was to keep thinking "do i need to use rules for this, or
does logical thought work better". A lot of people try to simplify by
making house rules..

> IMHO few games are in more need of d20 conversion than Shadowrun. I
> would like to see Shadowrun simplified and consistent and see more of
> what made it Shadowrun in the first place.

I know what you mean, but i disagree about using D20. Consistensy
would be nice.. i rarely/never use rigger/decker/astral rules because
of this, and tell the players who wan't to play those parts to be
learn the rules themselves.. and i love shadowrun too much to dump it
because of the little things :)

But.. at least pick something a little more rules-light.. how about
the new WoD rules? :D

> <sits calmly on Gurth's couch, munching popcorn>
>
> --
> -Graht
>
Message no. 5
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:31:26 -0600
On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:33:59 -0600, - wrote:
>
> I think that it would be a mistake to try to put all the rules into a
> universal Shadowrun format,
> and I would be sad to see Shadowrun give up a perfectly good D6 system
> to go to D20, which
> would either change the rules until it didn't feel the same, or make me
> buy a whole ton of D20s.
> (Imagine having to have 6 D20's to roll sorcery, I'd have to re-stock
> my dice bag.)
> This is all my opinion, if you totally love DnD and other D20 games,
> please don't take offense.
> -Bandwidthoracle

Please note that I removed the name because I'm trying to target the
person who wrote this. This is just in response to something I've
seen a lot.

If you don't know what D20 is don't complain about it.

And this part is directed to the person above, not as a rant but
simply as education.

In the D20 system you only roll one die, a d20, to determine success
or failure. So, you'd only need one d20 to play effectively. Course,
being a gamer, you would own more than one, but you would only need
one ;)

All else being said, I love the basic d6 system that Shadowrun uses.
It's all the other layers of rules piled on top of that d6 system that
I have a problem with.

--
-Graht
Message no. 6
From: failhelm@*****.com (failhelm)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:25:07 -0700 (PDT)
--- Graht <graht1@*****.com> wrote:

> IMHO few games are in more need of d20 conversion
> than Shadowrun. I
> would like to see Shadowrun simplified and
> consistent and see more of
> what made it Shadowrun in the first place.
>
> <sits calmly on Gurth's couch, munching popcorn>
>
> --
> -Graht

I was going to respond to more, but others will hit
those points. So here is my 2¥.

I too love the world of SR, but even as an experienced
GM I find the rules to be over bearing. I believe that
this comes down to an argument of leveling systems
(D20) vs. the more realistic skill systems (SR).

As a hardcore gamer, I don't care which any system
uses. The skill systems argue realism and the level
systems argue heorism, I get that. What I don't get
are gamers that are married to one or the other.

I started running SR because my group almost burned
out on the rules. I love the world, and wanted to show
my players that SR can be more than just tables,
charts and rules. My group began to long for a system
that didn't require constant referencing of rules
which in their eyes meant a leveling system (D20).

As GM I also find myself sometimes getting overly
distracted with detailing of rules and source books,
that sometimes replace rules, contradict or scatter
information.

My bigger concern is SR continues to be published.
Wizkids SR site is out of date and isn't even finished
(see timeline). If you hit their site you'd think
that Duels was the only SR system, little mention of
the Unplugged RPG.

My point is that if moving to a different dice system
is what SR needs to keep in production then it should
be considered. There are already factions of people
doing the D20 coversion or using GURPS rules.

I still play AD&D 1st edition and will likely never
play the D20 systems unless its for SR or other scifi
stuff.

Graht should not be dismissed on this.
Message no. 7
From: lists@*******.com (Wordman)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:11:44 -0400
On Sep 8, 2004, at 5:10 PM, Graht wrote:
> I don't play Shadowrun anymore. I haven't played it in about 3 years.
> ...snip...
> I gave up trying to keep up with it all. All of the rule changes just
> became to much for me and there just wasn't enough world building to
> outweigh that.

The reasons Graht lists are good ones (and make my reasons for quitting
seem petty and childish in comparison).

I've taken solace in Exalted, which I know a lot of people dis. But,
Graht, I suggest you check it out, because of what you say here:

> When Shadowrun first came out it was incredible, not because of the
> rules, but because of the world. Magic and cybertechnology and big
> guns and humans, trolls, orcs, elves, and dwarves, all trying to
> survive in a somewhat post apocolypic world where data was the only
> real commodity. It ruled.

I get this same sort of feeling from Exalted. It also has an
interesting take on the "lots of custom rules" issue. Basically, the
bread and better are pretty straightforward, but each charm has its own
rules twists. Some, I know, hate this. But I, who hate inconsistent
rules systems, think it's great. Because these little variations are
part of the game from the beginning, it somehow adds to the appeal for
me (sort of like the appealing aspects of collectable card games, but
not as obnoxious).

Some of you may recall I used to generate a lot of stuff for Shadowrun,
most of which is rotting on the vine now. I just don't really care that
much anymore. Exalted, on the other hand, infected me enough to write
this: http://www.divnull.com/lward/exalted/forgotten/

Anyway.

Wordman
http://www.divnull.com/lward/exalted/
Message no. 8
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark S)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:05:03 -0700 (PDT)
--- Graht <graht1@*****.com> wrote:
> I don't play Shadowrun anymore. I haven't played it in about 3
> years.

I think I hit 4 years this last week, after I moved across the country
and lost my gaming group.

> When Shadowrun first came out it was incredible, not because of the
> rules, but because of the world. Magic and cybertechnology and big
> guns and humans, trolls, orcs, elves, and dwarves, all trying to
> survive in a somewhat post apocolypic world where data was the only
> real commodity. It ruled.

Shadowrun has always been about the world for me. It still rules,
although I admit I don't know anything after about 2061 or so. I did
sadly notice that after FASA went under, so did the shelf space at the
bookstores. Now Shadowrun isn't very visible any more.


After I got out of my min/max phase from high school, I pretty much
lost interest in RPG combat. These days, I'd rather play almost
diceless. If I want lots of rules, I'd rather play a computer game,
where it's all handled for me, or at least use it as an excuse to paint
some miniatures. (something I also haven't done for 4 years)

Of course, it doesn't help that RPGs have always been a way for me to
hang out with friends more than meet new ones, and most of them live
across the country.

Mark




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Message no. 9
From: allura@***********.org (Joanna Hurley)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:18:52 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of failhelm

> My bigger concern is SR continues to be published.
> Wizkids SR site is out of date and isn't even finished (see
> timeline). If you hit their site you'd think that Duels was
> the only SR system, little mention of the Unplugged RPG.
[snip]

A quick note on this. If you do a google search for "Shadowrun", you'll
find that the first link goes to www.ShadowrunRPG.com which is the site run
by FanPro. That's the current site. Wizkids owns the license, but FanPro
does the work. :)

Joanna
Message no. 10
From: failhelm@*****.com (failhelm)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:37:52 -0700 (PDT)
--- Joanna Hurley <alallurardreamseekerrorgwrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: shshadowrnounces@*****.dudumpshockom
> > [mamailtohshadowrnounces@*****.dudumpshockom] On
> Behalf Of fafailhelm>
> > My bigger concern is SR continues to be published.
> > WiWizkidsR site is out of date and isn't even
> finished (see
> > titimeline If you hit their site you'd think that
> Duels was
> > the only SR system, little mention of the
> Unplugged RPRPG
> [snip]
>
> A quick note on this. If you do a gogoogleearch for
> "ShShadowrun you'll
> find that the first link goes to
> wwwwwhShadowrunRPGom which is the site run
> by FaFanPro That's the current site. WiWizkidswns
> the license, but FaFanPro> does the work. :)
>
> Joanna
>

Thanks chchummerbut I already scanned all that.

Doesn't change the fact that its concerning.
FaFanprooes a great job and they bust their hoops In
the end its still about the bottom line. Even
FaFanproan't do it all. I had to buy a 1st edition
basic book just to get a map of Seattle. It's been 15
years and resources have improved, but not enough.

Of course, as previously stated, I'm still in for the
long haul. I'm in it for friends, gaming, and food. SR
is one of those few RPRPGshat can survive on the world
concept alone.

Is anyone going to remember those generic d20 systems
10 years from now? Probably not anymore than people
remember TFTFOSr TMTMNTfter a decade.

- FaFailhelm
Message no. 11
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod@*******.net)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:56:58 -0700
Graht wrote:
>
> Please note that I removed the name because I'm trying to
> target the person who wrote this. This is just in response
> to something I've seen a lot.
>
> If you don't know what D20 is don't complain about it.
>
> And this part is directed to the person above, not as a rant
> but simply as education.
>
> In the D20 system you only roll one die, a d20, to determine
> success or failure. So, you'd only need one d20 to play
> effectively. Course, being a gamer, you would own more than
> one, but you would only need one ;)
>
> All else being said, I love the basic d6 system that Shadowrun uses.
> It's all the other layers of rules piled on top of that d6
> system that I have a problem with.
>

Okay, look, I own several Dice BlocksT and changing over to a D20 system is
going to mean that all that money went to waste. 'Sides, there's a certain
feeling to rattling 20+ dice in your hands while grinning at a player and
cackling maniacally.

[:

I, for one, think that making Shadowrun D20 wouldn't be a good idea for the
game. I never liked class-based, level-based games. They're too restrictive
(and conversely, I thought that D&D 3rd allowing just anyone to play a
paladin was also going over the top) and IMO not as fun. Also, as someone
else pointed out, the cinematics of SR are the meat and potatoes of many
engagements, something not as easily simulated in HP-based systems.

Zebulin

"Per Ardua ad Astra"
Message no. 12
From: d_hyde@***.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 01:02:50 -0500
> (and conversely, I thought that D&D 3rd allowing just anyone to play a
> paladin was also going over the top)

Believe it or not, I actually like this idea, just as paladins of lawful
neutral and lawful evil, they're not the same paladin, but a paladin in
their own right, an elven paladin would be akin to a bladesinger, a dwarven
paladin very much like a dwarven vindecator....a gnomish
paladin.....well......lets just call him squish and a halfling
paladin.....he'd always know where the food was ;)
Message no. 13
From: valeuj@*****.navy.mil (Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3))
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 16:40:35 +1000
>> I don't play Shadowrun anymore. I haven't played it in about 3
>> years.

>I think I hit 4 years this last week, after I moved across the country
>and lost my gaming group.

>> When Shadowrun first came out it was incredible, not because of the
>> rules, but because of the world. Magic and cybertechnology and big
>> guns and humans, trolls, orcs, elves, and dwarves, all trying to
>> survive in a somewhat post apocolypic world where data was the only
>> real commodity. It ruled.

>Shadowrun has always been about the world for me. It still rules,
>although I admit I don't know anything after about 2061 or so. I did
>sadly notice that after FASA went under, so did the shelf space at the
>bookstores. Now Shadowrun isn't very visible any more.

This is the main reason I hate the military. Being forces to move every
couple of year plays hell with any type of relationship, both general
friendship and more personal ones.

I had a great group of people at my first command. A complete Twink that
mellowed out which I converted from a non-roleplayer into an SR fanatic and
a couple of other old-schoolers from Second ed. Mind you this was 5 years
ago when the suppliment rulebooks were being released. Now at my last boat,
we had a nice group that played everything; D20 (Star Wars), BESM, WoD, and
SR. Now that I'm at my present location it's been nearly a year since I
finally found an active player. But it also looks like I've gotten another
convert.
Message no. 14
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:31:09 +0200
According to Nichlas Hummelsberger, on Wednesday 08 September 2004 23:37
the word on the street was...

> I know what you mean, but i disagree about using D20. Consistensy
> would be nice..

Are you (plural :) saying there isn't? OK, sure, the decking rules work
somewhat differently from everything else, but it's not as if we're
playing an AD&D-like game where lifting bars and bending gates uses almost
entirely different rules from breaking down those same gates, or from
seeing if you can dodge an onrushing fireball, or from hitting someone
with your sword...

> But.. at least pick something a little more rules-light.. how about
> the new WoD rules? :D

The ones that are a completely new, never-seen-before game, you mean? Or at
least, that's the impression they try to give... :) I expected something
like a chapter explaining what changes people who played WoD games before
should know about, or an introduction or afterword explaining the whys and
hows of WW's decision to publish a new edition, but there was none that I
could find.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: grendel@*****.org (Grendel)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 01:31:41 -0700
On Sep 8, 2004, at 2:10 PM, Graht wrote:
> I don't play Shadowrun anymore. I haven't played it in about 3 years.
> ... I was getting bogged down in rules and that my campaign was
> suffering
> for it. Instead of writing down notes for adventure ideas I was madly
> scribbling ideas to fix the new problems.
>
> Enter 3rd edition....Somewhere along the way the balance had
> shifted and the Shadowrun universe had shrunk while the rules grew,
> and grew, and grew.... I gave up trying to keep up with it all. All
> of the rule changes just
> became to much for me and there just wasn't enough world building to
> outweigh that.
>

I think it's a sad day when some of our best, most creative minds have
stopped playing Shadowrun. Burnout I can understand, but simply
putting the game away is beyond me. I've been working with this game
since 1st Edition like Graht, playing when I've been able to, run when
I've had to (more often than not), and I plan on doing so until I'm the
last one standing at the gaming table. Most, if not all, of the
players I've ever had empathize with Graht's points. Shadowrun is an
incredibly complex system, with a detailed ruleset that differs for
various aspects of the game. Yet, I don't think I've suffered from the
same problems that he detailed. I've been able to keep players
interested, my longest is going on four years. The games move, and
rare is the occasion when we are bogged down by a rules question. This
may be because I have two former GMs playing in the game, and they help
to handle small questions that come up. But, at the same time, I've
done my homework. I understand the rules well enough that I can rule
quickly on things, note them, and come back to double check myself
later. If I'm write, go me. If not, well, things even up on the
backside. The gray areas in the rules are noted and explained via our
houserules handout. This lets new players answer questions for
themselves before it becomes a problem in the game.

> IMHO few games are in more need of d20 conversion than Shadowrun. I
> would like to see Shadowrun simplified and consistent and see more of
> what made it Shadowrun in the first place.

You can port Shadowrun over to D20. You can port it to whatever
ruleset you want. But it won't make it any more or less Shadowrun.
Rules are like physics, they exist as a backdrop to a game. It's the
story the GM tells and the spirit of the players that fill the story
that make Shadowrun Shadowrun.

Grendel

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
The essence of life is struggle, and its goal is domination. There may
be deeper meanings and higher aspirations, but they exist solely within
the mind of man. The meaning of life is war.

---The Way and The Power
Lovret
Message no. 16
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:34:32 +0200
According to failhelm, on Thursday 09 September 2004 02:25 the word on the
street was...

> As a hardcore gamer, I don't care which any system
> uses. The skill systems argue realism and the level
> systems argue heorism, I get that. What I don't get
> are gamers that are married to one or the other.

IMHO it depends on the setting. I just can't see level-based systems
working for games like SR, but for your typical hack-and-slash fantasy
game, they work fine. I guess what we all should really do is compare,
say, d20 Deadlands to regular Deadlands (by playing several sessions of
both), and see how the rules make a difference in playing the same game.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: bmonroe@******.fsu.edu (Blair Monroe)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:54:50 -0400
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment


Graht wrote:

>Here John, this ought to fire up the list ;)
>
>I don't play Shadowrun anymore. I haven't played it in about 3 years.
>
>
>
Since everyone seems to be popping in and explaining why they DON'T play
SR anymore, I wanted to point out another non-ruleset or game philosophy
reason for why at least myself and my wife have quit playing...

We haven't played Shadowrun for at least 3 years now...though our
reasons weren't based on any game mechanic issues. They were simple...I
didn't want to play what typically amounts to a game about criminal
miscreants with GUNS set in the "real world" (no matter how fun that
could be <grin>) around my sons (currently almost 4 and 15 months old)
until they are old enough to understand that it is just a game. We
weren't the only ones who came to this conclusion: our entire gaming
group came to the same decision at about the same time and we all look
forward to getting to play again at some point in the future.


>
>I gave up trying to keep up with it all. All of the rule changes just
>became to much for me and there just wasn't enough world building to
>outweigh that.
>
>
It did occasionally get a little overwhelming. If I couldn't 'pick up'
or learn a set of new rules quickly I typically either ignored them and
winged it (which can work very well in shadowrun) or had any player who
wanted to take advantage of the new rules learn them and help keep
things straight.

>IMHO few games are in more need of d20 conversion than Shadowrun. I
>would like to see Shadowrun simplified and consistent and see more of
>what made it Shadowrun in the first place.
>
>
I'm afraid I'll have to side with the group that disagrees with you on
this one. I have no problem with the d20 system...most of what we are
playing right now is d20...it can be fun and cool, but it far from the
be all end all of game systems. I can think of many settings (many of
which have characters that are good at many different things as opposed
to being specialists) which level-based systems just don't seem to fit
right, even when done well.

Heck, I've enjoyed reading through a couple of the better done Shadowrun
d20 conversions that I've come accross on the WWW...but I don't think
I'd ever use them to play SR. I think a good example is AEG's 7th Sea.
The original game used a non-level based Roll and Keep mechanism. They
have since added D20 rules and renamed the game Swashbuckling
Adventures. I've got the books for both 'versions' of the game and
think that they did a really good job with the d20 rules, but I will
probably never use them to play 7th Sea...they just don't feel right.
One specific example is that it took something like a 12th level
character to 'accurately' convert one of our STARTING characters from
the original system (and the character wasn't very powerful...he just
dabbled in losts of different areas). D20 just doesn't fit very well in
this case.

Blair Monroe
Long time Lurker and SR GM
SRGC 0.22: SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h+ b+++ B++ UB+ IE+(-) RN- W+ gm+ M-(+) P--



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Message no. 18
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:58:51 -0400
On 9-Sep-04, at 4:34 AM, Gurth wrote:

> IMHO it depends on the setting. I just can't see level-based systems
> working for games like SR, but for your typical hack-and-slash fantasy
> game, they work fine. I guess what we all should really do is compare,
> say, d20 Deadlands to regular Deadlands (by playing several sessions of
> both), and see how the rules make a difference in playing the same
> game.

Sure, pick one of the most maligned d20 System games ever... :-)

Cheers,
Adam

--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 19
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:32:35 +0200
On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 23:37:31 +0200, Nichlas Hummelsberger
<nichlas.hummelsberger@*****.com> wrote:

> My solution was to keep thinking "do i need to use rules for this, or
> does logical thought work better". A lot of people try to simplify by
> making house rules..

Exactly. And as always: Rules in the corebook are nothing more but
suggestions.
Just take a look on rules for automatic fire in SR.

> I know what you mean, but i disagree about using D20. Consistensy
> would be nice.. i rarely/never use rigger/decker/astral rules because
> of this, and tell the players who wan't to play those parts to be
> learn the rules themselves.. and i love shadowrun too much to dump it
> because of the little things :)

True: As soon as there is specialisation, you get a boatload of rules. The
good thing, though, is that all follow the same theme, and you don't get
completely different systems for decking/rigging/magic.

The most important thing that makes me object to a d20 SR conversion
(which exists somewhere, AFAIK) is, that d20 is based on a class system.
Sure, you can tweak them and multiclass, too, but d20 is, IMHO, too strict
on what a character can do and what he cannot do.
Something I don't have to struggle with in SR.

> But.. at least pick something a little more rules-light.. how about
> the new WoD rules? :D

True, WoD is a very simple system, but still provides for more, er,
role-playing than other systems. It is not overly complex and has been
streamlined considerably.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster From Hell (Der Meister) and General Idiot

"Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice."
- Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC (Ret.), regarding combat handgun training
Message no. 20
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 10:00:19 -0700
On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:56:58 -0700
<zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
>

> I, for one, think that making Shadowrun D20 wouldn't be a good idea for the
> game. I never liked class-based, level-based games. They're too restrictive
> (and conversely, I thought that D&D 3rd allowing just anyone to play a
> paladin was also going over the top) and IMO not as fun. Also, as someone
> else pointed out, the cinematics of SR are the meat and potatoes of many
> engagements, something not as easily simulated in HP-based systems.
>
We're all experienced gamers here, right? So you could handle this: Take the
basic D20 skill set and stuff, trash the XP, levels and classes, make a Basic
Role Playing game based around all the rest, and go perentile, or D20.

As for dice, yeah, I have too many dice too.

--Anders
Message no. 21
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod@*******.net)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:13:39 -0700
Anders Swenson wrote:
>
> We're all experienced gamers here, right? So you could handle
> this: Take the basic D20 skill set and stuff, trash the XP,
> levels and classes, make a Basic Role Playing game based
> around all the rest, and go perentile, or D20.
>
> As for dice, yeah, I have too many dice too.
>

I didn't say too many dice, like it's a bad thing. [= I happen to like using
loads of dice on occasion.

See, the problem I'm finding is that I'd rather have degrees of success from
several dice rather than chancing everything on a single roll. Statistically
speaking, a critical failure is going to happen a lot more often on one die
than it will on 4 or 5 or more.

Zebulin
Message no. 22
From: mike_buckalew@*********.com (Mike Buckalew)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 10:47:06 -0700
On 9/9/04 1:34 AM, "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> IMHO it depends on the setting. I just can't see level-based systems
> working for games like SR, but for your typical hack-and-slash fantasy
> game, they work fine.

There is no reason that a good d20/ogl conversion of SR would need classes
or levels. Just because the D&D application of d20 uses them does not make
it a requirement.

I'm in the same boat as Graht, I've been running D&D since 3e was released,
the campaign is finishing up, and I did not consider going to SR as the new
campaign as I'm not happy with the rules.

About a year ago I promised Bull that I would help run SR at GenCon SoCal,
so I took a 1 month break from my D&D game and ran an SR module to get
reacquainted with the system. [I screwed Bull's crew over royally when I
got stuck on jury duty and couldn't make it, but that's another story.]

Anyway, it didn't go well. I took the time to reread my BABY, and it just
felt awkward and clunky compared with D&D 3e. The rules seemed to lack in
internal consistency and I felt like there was a lot of extra complexity
that didn't need to be there.

The play went worse. A simple combat in a sewer with a gang of ghouls took
an entire session. About 4 times as long as it would in D&D. This was just
supposed to be a nuisance encounter, not a knock-down-drag-out climactic
fight. OK, part of it was the group's unfamiliarity, but a lot of it was
just an overly complicated system. In the end, after it was clear that I
wasn't going to make it to Anaheim, the group decided to go back to D&D with
the SR module unfinished, even though they were hooked into the storyline,
because it was too much work to resolve the mechanics.

I still love the world of Shadowrun and would dearly love to run another
campaign in it. I still hold some nostalgia for the game system, which was
groundbreaking for its time. But I can't bring myself to play the game
until the system is modernized, using a cleaner, internally consistent
ruleset that is easier to learn and plays smoother and faster.

I'm not saying this has to be d20 though. I like d20, but am not married to
it. Any system that is internally consistent and allows for streamlined
play would be sufficient.

WotC gambled big when they went from AD&D to d20 D&D. They took an overly
complicated, inconsistent system with a HUGE established fanbase and rebuilt
from the ground up. The changes to the game alienated a very vocal bunch of
players but brought a huge influx of new players, and I think can be
considered a major success.

I don't know if FanPro has the clout to pull off something like this. I
don't know how their sales are going, so I don't know if they need to do
something like this. But I would sure appreciate it.

> I guess what we all should really do is compare,
> say, d20 Deadlands to regular Deadlands (by playing several sessions of
> both), and see how the rules make a difference in playing the same game.

My group played Deadlands for about 2 years, it was the last campaign before
we started d20 D&D. The classic DL system is the best marriage of flavor
and mechanics I've ever seen. The integration of the poker deck into the
system is brilliant.

It does, however, suffer from being slow playing compared to d20. About a
year after we switched to D&D, we tried playing a one-off Deadlands game on
a Saturday afternoon. It was a foreshadowing of our SR detour: it was slow
and clunky, taking forever to resolve every little combat.

I bought and read Deadlands d20 and several of the d20 supplements when they
were released. I'm afraid that the folks at PEG didn't really grok the d20
system. The conversion tried to stay way too close to D&D and lost all of
the cool flavor of the classic DL system. Basically, it was D&D with
winchesters.

I suppose this would be an abject lesson to FanPro if they did go the d20
route - make the system truly work for SR, not just D&D with assault rifles.

--
Buck (Mike Buckalew)
SCM Manager, FileMaker Inc.
mike_buckalew@*********.com
Message no. 23
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:47:31 -0400
On 9-Sep-04, at 1:00 PM, Anders Swenson wrote:

> We're all experienced gamers here, right? So you could handle this:
> Take the
> basic D20 skill set and stuff, trash the XP, levels and classes,

BESM d20 / Anime d20 can easily handle that. System Reference Documents
available at http://www.guardiansorder.com/games/d20/srd/

For those who don't have experience with it, BESM d20 / Anime d20 is a
point-based deconstruction of the core parts of the d20 System - you
can download the System Reference Documents for free, to check it out.
[And for full disclosure, it is a product of my employer, Guardians of
Order, Inc.]

While I'm at it, there's also our upcoming cyberpunk-genre core-rules
and world supplement, Ex Machina . . . ;-)

Best,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 24
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:41:24 -0700
On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:47:31 -0400
Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> wrote:
>
>> For those who don't have experience with it, BESM d20 / Anime d20 is a
> point-based deconstruction of the core parts of the d20 System - you can
> download the System Reference Documents for free, to check it out. [And for
> full disclosure, it is a product of my employer, Guardians of Order, Inc.]
>
> While I'm at it, there's also our upcoming cyberpunk-genre core-rules and
> world supplement, Ex Machina . . . ;-)
>
Thanks for picking that up. I reccommend the Cheap Gamer's version, we are
using it for our D20 Mod game.

But my point was the last half, how you could easily take SR and the BESM but
make it into a classless, levelless system using BRP from Chaosium, or your
fav other class-less, level-less system.
--Anders
Message no. 25
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:58:16 -0700 (PDT)
> The play went worse. A simple combat in a sewer with a gang of
> ghouls took an entire session. About 4 times as long as it would
> in D&D.

This is almost entirely attributable to a lack of practice/recent
familiarity with one system, while at the same time possessing a
great deal of practice/recent familiarity with the other. Give any
game system a few good solid game sessions, relax any prejudices
inherent in switching systems, and a decently intelligent gamer
learns to ignore the chaff and steamline the important details.

I have successfully run up to four discrete combat encounters in a
single 8-hour session of SR. I was thoroughly versed on the system,
had players who were also fully conversant in it. You have no idea
how much time you lose when you have to continually refer players to
something as simple as the fact that Perception is Intelligence, and
firing one bullet from a semi-auto weapon uses a Simple Action. It
becomes apparent when your players stop doing that to you, looking it
up for themself, or even *gasp* remembering it for 5 minutes. I have
gained back 30-45 minutes per combat by getting my players to learn
the most basic rules of the game, and practicing some simple
etiquette.

> This was just supposed to be a nuisance encounter, not a
knock-down-> drag-out climactic fight. OK, part of it was the
group's > unfamiliarity, but a lot of it was just an overly
complicated > system.

Hmmm... honestly, I think I am hearing the same thing over and over
as criticism for SR combat, as this thread progresses. It sounds
more like bias than actual complication.

How hard is it to remember which skill goes with which weapon? "Hey
look, I am still holding the pistol I fired last turn. Last turn, I
rolled ~Pistols~ to attack with my pistol. Maybe I don't need to ask
what dice I roll to attack with my pistol."
How difficult is it to remember how many CP dice you have left? Or
the simple rule that you only use a number of pool dice equal to the
base dice amount (from skill)? Or that when asked to roll Body to
resist damage, you will have the same Body rating as you did 5
minutes ago? I don't see that D&D3e is all that much more staight
forward. Using the base rules of SR (BBB only), I can think of
exactly one place where things get confusing. How do I resolve the
relative position of two combatants when one is in a vehicle and the
other is on foot? Everything else is simple. In 3rd Edition more
than ever.

One key thing to remember about game rules is that (no matter what
the system), they are optional. If they don't make sense, or they
break, don't use them. Find a set of rules that works and makes
sense, and stick to them. Here is all you really need to know about
SR mechanics:

1. You get a number of 6-sided dice for any given test (place where
you have to roll ~anything~). This number is set by a skill or
attribute. It can augmented by a select list of things, which
starting players should note on their char sheet.

2. You have a TN (target number). This TN has a base, often 4, that
is effected by modifiers. These are usually clearly listed on a
table ~named for what you are doing~, found in the book. (If the
total mod is more than +3, start looking for alternatives to that
course of action. If the total mod is <= -2, you probably do not
need to be rolling dice.)

3. All rolls are one of 4 kinds:
Opposed roll: you are competing for a greater number of successes
against some other roll taking place.
Unopposed roll: your only competition is you... get as many successes
as you can.
Open roll: roll all dice, tell GM the highest number you rolled only.
Initiative: total face value of dice, add to Reaction, tell GM
resulting sum.

These apply to meat interaction, vehicle interaction, matrix
interaction, and astral interaction. The only area that gets a
little shaky is the vehicle-meat interaction. This area is left
somewhat to the GM (wing it logically) in the basic rules.

Astral: roll dice = attributes/skills augmented by pools, against TN
(with modifiers), will be one of the four types of rolls.
Matrix: rolls dice = attributes/skills augmented by pools, against TN
(with modifiers - usually program ratings), will be one of four types
of rolls.
Vehicles: blah blah blah...
Meat: blah blah blah...

These guidlines can allow you to resolve 99% of game mechanics
questions. If you want a guidlines for the other 1%, it is this:

4. Keep it logical. The laws of physics still apply. Common sense
still applies. The GM's ruling stands.

And while I absolutely hate D20, I would bet the rules for any D20
implementation, of any game, could be summed up as easily. It is a
matter of the GM and players knowing the rules. Start simple, adding
new rules only after the basic rules are well known.

I am not, btw, picking on this post specifically, but on the overall
assertion that SR is somehow overly complex. My counter-assertion is
that this statement is based on personal bias more than the actual
relative complexity of any game system. I find SR to be easy... and
if I encounter something that seems, at first blush, to be complex, I
work back to the above three guidelines, simplifying it. We all tend
to view as superior the games that we like to play/run. I have met
people who swear that Palladium games are easy to learn, easily
interwoven, and very straightforward to play. Ugh. :)

I think SR is one of the richest games, in terms of flavor and
playability, on the market today. For those that feel the world or
metaplot needs more attention than it gets, I would say, why not
write your own? If you get something you like, post it on the Sixth
Workd Wiki for others. Shadowrun is set against a very full, very
complete, very easily grasped backdrop. Earth. Near future. Like
today, but with meaner streets, cooler tech, and some psychics really
can read minds. For those that think the mechanics are top heavy
because of supplements, I would say, stick to the main book. For
those who say there are not enough rules, I would say, buy the
supplements. I can't really think of a single rule in SR that cannot
be easily explained or mildly altered, removing any impact it has on
the flow of the game. Feel free to test me on that.

======Korishinzo
--Top 10 Reasons I Play Shadowrun: #3: Ummm, hellooo, Japanese elven
decker...! ;>



__________________________________
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Message no. 26
From: danturek@*******.com (D. T)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:59:18 -0400
>From: Graht <graht1@*****.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2004 5:10 PM I
>don't play Shadowrun anymore. I haven't played it in about 3 years.

That's sad, especially considering how often you post.

>When Shadowrun first came out it was incredible, not because of the
rules, but because of the world. Magic and cybertechnology and big
guns and humans, trolls, orcs, elves, and dwarves, all trying to
survive in a somewhat post apocolypic world where data was the only
real commodity. It ruled.

I thought Shadowrun was one of the stupidest games I had ever seen. If it
were not for the flier with Ehran the Scribe describing the cycles of magic
and the history from 1990-2050 I never would have tried it. Yet I did,
bought several books, and even tried the horrible novels.

>There were problems with the rules, but it didn't matter because that
was part of the fun of the game (trolls in our campaign played shotgun
tag because they couldn't hurt eachother with shotguns, it was loud,
and it was fun).

Burst fire fixed most of our group's problems.

>Along came 2nd edition. The problems in 1st edition were fixed, and
new paradoxes were created (FAB anyone?). But it was okay because it
was still Shadowrun. And then the supplements started coming out.

There were things I did not like in 2nd edition, but many things were fixed.
We played a version 1.5

>Enter 3rd edition. It fixed a lot of problems, but then all of the
supplements had to be updated, and there were a *lot* of changes, and
a lot of creative new rules.

>I gave up trying to keep up with it all. All of the rule changes just
became to much for me and there just wasn't enough world building to
outweigh that.

So don't keep up with the changes. The only thing I think we added to our
campaign is the use of knowledge skills and getting all those free ones from
your Intelligence. Karma is still 1st Ed, meaning no karma pool and skills
are more expensive. I don't use a combat pool, just good ol' 1st Ed Dodge
Pool and Armed/Unarmed Pools. There are lots of ways to mix and match
editions. Keeping up with the latest is difficult, and often unneccessary. I
felt sad that only a few people voted for president in the Shadowrun
adventures, and I would have, if I didn't buy the module several years after
it was published. We always start our campaigns in 2050. If a group gets
wiped out, start all over, January 2050. Don't have to worry about new tech,
etc. unless you have a very experienced group with a history of survival.

<But I do like the new Matrix rules. Too bad they couldn't all have been in
one book.>

So pick an edition for core rules and play or move by Kori. Play the game
you loved and stop worrying about the latest stuff.

Or do something different.

There already is pretty much a skill list - it's the skill web in 1st Ed.
All characters should have Stealth, Athletics, Computers, etc. SR is as
close to d20 as I would like it to be, and changing the world to that of
heroic gaming would be even more of a change than some bizarre 4th edition
using only d8s :) Ehran the Scribe has just as many hit points as me, and
goes BLATTO if hit with a long burst from an assault rife. The difference is
he might have things in place to prevent being hit. In d20 he can just take
it and go "Ha ha, I'm Epic level and have hundreds of hit points." The
feeling you had when you played 1st Ed would totally die in me. I, however,
still play a version of 1st Ed, and still have fun!

_________________________________________________________________
Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and
more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx
Message no. 27
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:05:51 -0700
On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:58:16 -0700 (PDT)
Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> > The play went worse. A simple combat in a sewer with a gang of
> > ghouls took an entire session. About 4 times as long as it would
> > in D&D.
>
> This is almost entirely attributable to a lack of practice/recent
> familiarity with one system, while at the same time possessing a
> great deal of practice/recent familiarity with the other. Give any
> game system a few good solid game sessions, relax any prejudices
> inherent in switching systems, and a decently intelligent gamer
> learns to ignore the chaff and steamline the important details.
>
> I have successfully run up to four discrete combat encounters in a
> single 8-hour session of SR. I was thoroughly versed on the system,
> had players who were also fully conversant in it. You have no idea
> how much time you lose when you have to continually refer players to
> something as simple as the fact that Perception is Intelligence, and
> firing one bullet from a semi-auto weapon uses a Simple Action. It
> becomes apparent when your players stop doing that to you, looking it
> up for themself, or even *gasp* remembering it for 5 minutes. I have
> gained back 30-45 minutes per combat by getting my players to learn
> the most basic rules of the game, and practicing some simple
> etiquette.
>
> > This was just supposed to be a nuisance encounter, not a
> knock-down-> drag-out climactic fight. OK, part of it was the
> group's > unfamiliarity, but a lot of it was just an overly
> complicated > system.
>
> Hmmm... honestly, I think I am hearing the same thing over and over
> as criticism for SR combat, as this thread progresses. It sounds
> more like bias than actual complication.
>
> How hard is it to remember which skill goes with which weapon? "Hey
> look, I am still holding the pistol I fired last turn. Last turn, I
> rolled ~Pistols~ to attack with my pistol. Maybe I don't need to ask
> what dice I roll to attack with my pistol."
> How difficult is it to remember how many CP dice you have left? Or
> the simple rule that you only use a number of pool dice equal to the
> base dice amount (from skill)? Or that when asked to roll Body to
> resist damage, you will have the same Body rating as you did 5
> minutes ago? I don't see that D&D3e is all that much more staight
> forward. Using the base rules of SR (BBB only), I can think of
> exactly one place where things get confusing. How do I resolve the
> relative position of two combatants when one is in a vehicle and the
> other is on foot? Everything else is simple. In 3rd Edition more
> than ever.
>
> One key thing to remember about game rules is that (no matter what
> the system), they are optional. If they don't make sense, or they
> break, don't use them. Find a set of rules that works and makes
> sense, and stick to them. Here is all you really need to know about
> SR mechanics:
>
> 1. You get a number of 6-sided dice for any given test (place where
> you have to roll ~anything~). This number is set by a skill or
> attribute. It can augmented by a select list of things, which
> starting players should note on their char sheet.
>
> 2. You have a TN (target number). This TN has a base, often 4, that
> is effected by modifiers. These are usually clearly listed on a
> table ~named for what you are doing~, found in the book. (If the
> total mod is more than +3, start looking for alternatives to that
> course of action. If the total mod is <= -2, you probably do not
> need to be rolling dice.)
>
> 3. All rolls are one of 4 kinds:
> Opposed roll: you are competing for a greater number of successes
> against some other roll taking place.
> Unopposed roll: your only competition is you... get as many successes
> as you can.
> Open roll: roll all dice, tell GM the highest number you rolled only.
> Initiative: total face value of dice, add to Reaction, tell GM
> resulting sum.
>
> These apply to meat interaction, vehicle interaction, matrix
> interaction, and astral interaction. The only area that gets a
> little shaky is the vehicle-meat interaction. This area is left
> somewhat to the GM (wing it logically) in the basic rules.
>
> Astral: roll dice = attributes/skills augmented by pools, against TN
> (with modifiers), will be one of the four types of rolls.
> Matrix: rolls dice = attributes/skills augmented by pools, against TN
> (with modifiers - usually program ratings), will be one of four types
> of rolls.
> Vehicles: blah blah blah...
> Meat: blah blah blah...
>
> These guidlines can allow you to resolve 99% of game mechanics
> questions. If you want a guidlines for the other 1%, it is this:
>
> 4. Keep it logical. The laws of physics still apply. Common sense
> still applies. The GM's ruling stands.
>
> And while I absolutely hate D20, I would bet the rules for any D20
> implementation, of any game, could be summed up as easily. It is a
> matter of the GM and players knowing the rules. Start simple, adding
> new rules only after the basic rules are well known.
>
> I am not, btw, picking on this post specifically, but on the overall
> assertion that SR is somehow overly complex. My counter-assertion is
> that this statement is based on personal bias more than the actual
> relative complexity of any game system. I find SR to be easy... and
> if I encounter something that seems, at first blush, to be complex, I
> work back to the above three guidelines, simplifying it. We all tend
> to view as superior the games that we like to play/run. I have met
> people who swear that Palladium games are easy to learn, easily
> interwoven, and very straightforward to play. Ugh. :)
>
> I think SR is one of the richest games, in terms of flavor and
> playability, on the market today. For those that feel the world or
> metaplot needs more attention than it gets, I would say, why not
> write your own? If you get something you like, post it on the Sixth
> Workd Wiki for others. Shadowrun is set against a very full, very
> complete, very easily grasped backdrop. Earth. Near future. Like
> today, but with meaner streets, cooler tech, and some psychics really
> can read minds. For those that think the mechanics are top heavy
> because of supplements, I would say, stick to the main book. For
> those who say there are not enough rules, I would say, buy the
> supplements. I can't really think of a single rule in SR that cannot
> be easily explained or mildly altered, removing any impact it has on
> the flow of the game. Feel free to test me on that.
>
> ======> Korishinzo
> --Top 10 Reasons I Play Shadowrun: #3: Ummm, hellooo, Japanese elven
> decker...! ;>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Message no. 28
From: mestre_bira@***.com.br (Bira)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:16:30 -0300
Nichlas Hummelsberger wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:10:07 -0600, Graht <graht1@*****.com> wrote:
>
>>I gave up trying to keep up with it all. All of the rule changes just
>>became to much for me and there just wasn't enough world building to
>>outweigh that.
>
>
> My solution was to keep thinking "do i need to use rules for this, or
> does logical thought work better". A lot of people try to simplify by
> making house rules..

I wouldn't call it "simplifying", myself, judging from the house rules
I've read on the Internet. They seem to be mostly made by people who
think a certain aspect of the game isn't "realistic" (read:
"detailed")
enough for them.


--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 29
From: mestre_bira@***.com.br (Bira)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:14:09 -0300
Graht wrote:
> Here John, this ought to fire up the list ;)
>
> I don't play Shadowrun anymore. I haven't played it in about 3 years.

I hear you, except for the bit below:

>
> IMHO few games are in more need of d20 conversion than Shadowrun. I
> would like to see Shadowrun simplified and consistent and see more of
> what made it Shadowrun in the first place.

I wouldn't use d20, myself. But then, again, I wouldn't use metahumans
and most of the setting, so I'm probably not very representative of the
majority of dissatisfied SR players/GMs :).


--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 30
From: mc23@**********.com (MC23)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 22:55:11 -0400
On Sep 8, 2004, at 5:10 PM, Graht wrote:

> Here John, this ought to fire up the list ;)

I'd say so.

Besides the fact that the group I RPG with only know/care about D&D, I
am left with another thought about my old favorite game which I haven't
played for years.

Is Shadowrun still relevant?

The cyberpunk genre caught on in part due to the undercurrents most
people felt about their place in the world. That attitude has changed
over the years. I just don't think the Shadowrun world connects with
people anymore.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power,
personal names more so and they were guarded very closely.
To protect themselves, they answered to another name,
because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 31
From: valeuj@*****.navy.mil (Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3))
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:11:59 +1000
>>On Sep 8, 2004, at 5:10 PM, Graht wrote:

>> Here John, this ought to fire up the list ;)

>I'd say so.

Light Fuse, Run Away...

> Besides the fact that the group I RPG with only know/care about D&D,
I
>am left with another thought about my old favorite game which I haven't
>played for years.

> Is Shadowrun still relevant?

> The cyberpunk genre caught on in part due to the undercurrents most
>people felt about their place in the world. That attitude has changed
>over the years. I just don't think the Shadowrun world connects with
>people anymore.

That just it though, I think that Shadowrun has gone on for long enough that
it no longer has to be the disenfranchised shadowfolk that are the PCs.
There's enough source material available to where the players don't need to
be runners. How bout they're part of a bush league Urban Brawl team? Or
maybe they're explorers trying to find some magical artifact/spell cache.
There's enough out there to not just have the same urban bound adventures.
Heck, make them bodyguards of a popular teen idol for a week that no longer
wants to do here "job" and they have to keep her out of trouble.

Here's an experiment I want to try. Don't bring any of the books to the
table. Ok, maybe the quickstart rules, but that's it. And make sure you
hide the cover. Now run an adventure with a group that's never played
Shadowrun, they might have heard of it, but they never played it. Never
mention Troll, Ork, Elf, or Dwarf. Use your words, be descriptive.
Keep all cyber as concealable as possible. Magic is ok, but make it a
little flashier then usual. See if they catch on.

I know Cyberpunk aint as cool as it used to be, but it grew up and now it's
something else.
What that is, I have no idea.
Message no. 32
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:00:46 +0200
According to Adam Jury, on Thursday 09 September 2004 16:58 the word on the
street was...

> Sure, pick one of the most maligned d20 System games ever... :-)

It was the first one I could think of :) But since I own, have played, and
like the original, now you have me wondering what's so bad about the d20
version...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 33
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:06:34 +0200
According to Adam Jury, on Thursday 09 September 2004 19:47 the word on the
street was...

> For those who don't have experience with it, BESM d20 / Anime d20 is a
> point-based deconstruction of the core parts of the d20 System - you
> can download the System Reference Documents for free, to check it out.
> [And for full disclosure, it is a product of my employer, Guardians of
> Order, Inc.]

You'd almost think you're paid by the publishers... ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 34
From: bull@*********.com (Bull)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:17:28 -0400
At 05:10 PM 9/8/2004, Graht wrote:
>Here John, this ought to fire up the list ;)
>
>I don't play Shadowrun anymore. I haven't played it in about 3 years.
I just started up a new game myself after about a 4 year hiatus (Not
counting convention games. They're fun, but they don't count in my book :))

>When Shadowrun first came out it was incredible, <SNIP!>

Unfortunately I lost a lot of wonder and "awe" that comes with an RPG
product, especially an ever evolving metaplot one like SR, when I became a
freelancer. I know too much and lost my innocence, so to speak.

I still enjoy Shadowrun. I think it's a great world, a great story, and
for me it's a great system. I think 3rd ed is incredibly complex, but once
you get it down it's one of the most powerful game engines out there.

>IMHO few games are in more need of d20 conversion than Shadowrun. I
>would like to see Shadowrun simplified and consistent and see more of
>what made it Shadowrun in the first place.
OOoo... Don;t EVEN get me started... There is only one reason, and one
reason only to do a d20 version of any game, and that's sales... I'll
admit that it would bring a lot of players into the game, but good lord,
D20 is the lowest common denominator of games.

With an amazing amount of work and tweaking, to the point where you can no
longer legally use the D20 logo and can even barely call it OGL, it's not a
bad system. But on the whole, there are too damn many bad trappings that
go with it.

Bulle
Message no. 35
From: bull@*********.com (Bull)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:26:26 -0400
At 08:25 PM 9/8/2004, failhelm wrote:

>My bigger concern is SR continues to be published.
>Wizkids SR site is out of date and isn't even finished
>(see timeline). If you hit their site you'd think
>that Duels was the only SR system, little mention of
>the Unplugged RPG.
Probably been discussed already, but bear with, I'm playing Catch Up.

Wizkids does not publish Shadowrun, Fantasy productions (FanPro)
does. Wizkids owns the proerty, and outside of administering and approving
material (which is mostly formality and to make sure stuff conforms to the
license) theyu have absolutely zero input and impact on the RPG. Mike
Mulvihill, the old Line Dev for Shadowrun under FASA (And one time list
member) handles the licensing end of things for Wizkids, while Rob Boyle,
Mike's assistant at FASA, is now heading up FanPro LLC, the U.S. division
of FanPro that handles the Shadowrun game. Almost everyone involved with
the game now is the same group that was handling the game under FASA, with
the exception of a few Freelancers that have either moved on or been
brought into the fold.

Shadowrun's website is not on the Wizkids site, it has it's own
site: ShadowrunRPG.com. FanPro's main site is in German (as the main
company itself is a German RPG company), but has links to the SHadowrun
site as needed.

Bull
Message no. 36
From: bull@*********.com (Bull)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:33:31 -0400
At 01:56 AM 9/9/2004, zebulingod@*******.net wrote:
>Okay, look, I own several Dice BlocksT and changing over to a D20 system is
>going to mean that all that money went to waste. 'Sides, there's a certain
>feeling to rattling 20+ dice in your hands while grinning at a player and
>cackling maniacally.
>
>[:
>
>I, for one, think that making Shadowrun D20 wouldn't be a good idea for the
>game. I never liked class-based, level-based games. They're too restrictive
>(and conversely, I thought that D&D 3rd allowing just anyone to play a
>paladin was also going over the top) and IMO not as fun. Also, as someone
>else pointed out, the cinematics of SR are the meat and potatoes of many
>engagements, something not as easily simulated in HP-based systems.

To be fair, you can do a D20 (Well, OGL at least) game that does not
include classes, levels, or even Hit Points. See Mutants and Masterminds
for a good start at "Fixing" D20. But it's a lot of work, and it
invalidates the reason that many people claim they want D20 versions of
games: To avoid having to learn a new system.

Besides... D20 just wouldn;t feel right. I've always been a huge believer
that a game system should be tailor designed to the game it's
emulating. I've never liked nor felt comforatable with "Generic"
games... D&D works, because D20 is designed for D&D. But for anything
else... The system feels like D&D with some minor tweaks, not like the game
it's supposed to be (Call of Cthulhu D20, 7th Seas d20, and BESM D20 are
all examples of games that have d20 versions that I've played both of, and
strongly feel the D20 version loses a LOT in translation... Noth that 7th
Seas core system is anytthing to write home about either :)).

<shrug>

All IMNSHO, of course :)

Bull
Message no. 37
From: bull@*********.com (Bull)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:45:23 -0400
At 04:31 AM 9/9/2004, Grendel wrote:
>You can port Shadowrun over to D20. You can port it to whatever
>ruleset you want. But it won't make it any more or less Shadowrun.
>Rules are like physics, they exist as a backdrop to a game. It's the
>story the GM tells and the spirit of the players that fill the story
>that make Shadowrun Shadowrun.
Sorry grendel man :) I have to slightly disagree with you here...

A good GM can make any game good, I agree here. But I think that the rules
system itself is an important part of the game, as it helps define the
game. It's not the only thing, and it's a minor point, but... <shrug> I
associate System and Game World. WoD is WoD, whether you're playing
vampire or a converted WW2 sim. D20 is D&D, no matter if you stick
lightsabers or mechs in it. And Shadowrun is SHadowrun. I've used the
system for other games (Had a nice Star Wars game that used the system for
a while), but it still is Shadowrun in my mind.

Maybe I'm just wierd though :)

I'd agree Shadowrun needs simplification. It suffers from what all systems
suffer: Rules Bloat. Hell, D&D 3.5 is a year old and already has well
over a Dozen "Official" sourcebooks and expansions. Look how bloated 3.0
got after only 3 years.

But D20 is not the answer. I will walk away from Shadowrun the day it goes
D20.

And to quote myself during a brief freelancers meeting at Gen Con: "Rob,
if the words D20 come out of your mouth, I'm coming over the table." :]

FWIW, I don;t mind D20. I don;t mind "New" D20 games, especially ones that
try to do something different with it. Mutants and Masterminds is a great
example of this. I just don;t think it's that good of a system, and as I
said in another post, the only real reason to put out a D20 version of an
existing system is money, which is pretty sad. And if you say anything
else, you're lying through your teeth :)

Bull
Message no. 38
From: bull@*********.com (Bull)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:53:53 -0400
At 10:55 PM 9/9/2004, MC23 wrote:

>On Sep 8, 2004, at 5:10 PM, Graht wrote:
>
>>Here John, this ought to fire up the list ;)
>
>I'd say so.
>
> Besides the fact that the group I RPG with only know/care about
> D&D, I am left with another thought about my old favorite game which I
> haven't played for years.
>
> Is Shadowrun still relevant?
>
> The cyberpunk genre caught on in part due to the undercurrents
> most people felt about their place in the world. That attitude has
> changed over the years. I just don't think the Shadowrun world connects
> with people anymore.

If you look at Shadowrun though, it's also cahnged over the years, for good
or ill. It's not really a cyberpunk game anymore (And I know some lament
the fact). These days it's a bit more paramilitary in nature. That may
not appeal to some, but it does appeal to a lot of people.

<shrug>

To me, it's all about the world, regardless of focus.

Bull
Message no. 39
From: bull@*********.com (Bull)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:56:29 -0400
At 05:00 AM 9/10/2004, Gurth wrote:
>According to Adam Jury, on Thursday 09 September 2004 16:58 the word on the
>street was...
>
> > Sure, pick one of the most maligned d20 System games ever... :-)
>
>It was the first one I could think of :) But since I own, have played, and
>like the original, now you have me wondering what's so bad about the d20
>version...

Hehe. I loved Deadlands, but it was really hurt by the system. It was
slow, clunky, unbalanced, and didn;t make much sense half the
time. But... It had a very unique feel to it. The card system really
helped give the game a unique flavor.

Deadlands D20 is D&D with pistols and cowboy hats. The same way 7th Sea
D20 (Swashbuckling Adventues) is D&D with boats and dueling pistols. Bleh.

Bull
Message no. 40
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:38:41 +0200
According to Bull, on Friday 10 September 2004 11:56 the word on the street
was...

> Hehe. I loved Deadlands, but it was really hurt by the system. It was
> slow, clunky, unbalanced, and didn;t make much sense half the
> time.

It took my group a bit of time to figure out how the game actually worked,
I admit, but once we did it worked as well as any other game I've played.
IMHO that tends to be the problem with people who play D&D3 and won't play
anything that isn't d20: they simplydon't want to take the time to learn a
new system, regardless of whether it's better or worse than what they
already know.

Then again, maybe my perceptions are colored by the fact that about the
only gamers I come into contact with these days who aren't in my SR group,
are ones whose exposure to gaming is limited to up to five games, in
roughly this order: Magic, Warhammer (and variants), Yu Gi Oh (sp?), D&D,
and Mageknight. Just about any time when talking about gaming, if I drop a
system name that I expect gamers to at least know the name of, I have to
spend 5 minutes explaining the basics of the setting, the rules, and/or
even the simple fact that there are publishers besides GW and WotC... :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 41
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:46:46 -0300
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:17:28 -0400, Bull <bull@*********.com> wrote:
>
> OOoo... Don;t EVEN get me started... There is only one reason, and one
> reason only to do a d20 version of any game, and that's sales... I'll
> admit that it would bring a lot of players into the game, but good lord,
> D20 is the lowest common denominator of games.

You know, I used to be exactly like that. Every time I read someone on
the Internet saying Shadowrun was D&D with guns, or that they wanted
to adapt SR to some flavor of D20, I'd join the discussion just to say
the idea was ludicrous, and that it could never be done and retain the
flavor of the game, and other such things.

Now, I just don't care anymore. I've grown tired of the inherent
wackiness of the setting, and realized most people _do_ play it as D&D
with guns. People can adapt it to anything they like - it's their
game, even if I wouldn't play in it.

I still like the cyberpunk genre, and I think it still has a lot of
mileage if you get rid of the 80's trappings and replace them with
something more current. But any game of that sort I'd play or GM today
would be so far removed from Shadowrun as to make all canon completely
meaningless.

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 42
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod@*******.net)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:43:19 -0700
Gurth wrote:
>
> Then again, maybe my perceptions are colored by the fact that
> about the only gamers I come into contact with these days who
> aren't in my SR group, are ones whose exposure to gaming is
> limited to up to five games, in roughly this order: Magic,
> Warhammer (and variants), Yu Gi Oh (sp?), D&D, and
> Mageknight. Just about any time when talking about gaming, if
>

To be fair, Gurth, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (the RPG, not the wargames) is
actually a pretty unique and interesting game. I'd love to run it more, but
my players never quite made the switch out of the Shadowrun frame of mind.
It has a totally different feel, but is pretty cool.

Zeb
Message no. 43
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:10:26 +0200
According to Bira, on Friday 10 September 2004 14:46 the word on the street
was...

> most people _do_ play it as D&D with guns.

They do? Must be my group, then -- over the last six months or so, we've
gotten a few new players who were mostly used to D&D and Vampire, and
initially tried playing SR as if it were D&D. They quickly found out that,
at least with me GMing, that simply won't work. Old habits seem to die
hard, though, as just two weeks ago one of the PCs got killed by being
stupid enough to stand out in plain view of an NPC with an AK-97, who had
already given that same PC a Serious wound when he poked his head through
a hole in the floor...

OTOH, when we had a discussion about D&D as a game, it turned out that
their views of the game were much more serious than those held by the rest
of the group (most of whom had only played D&D with our group). "We" tend
to view it as (basically) a fun diversion where the main object is to go
and heroically kill as many monsters as you can so you get XP, while
"they" looked at it in much the same way the rest of the group regarded
SR: a game in which you take your character and the world seriously.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 44
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:13:45 -0700 (PDT)
> Now, I just don't care anymore. I've grown tired of the inherent
> wackiness of the setting, and realized most people _do_ play it as
> D&D with guns. People can adapt it to anything they like - it's
> their game, even if I wouldn't play in it.

How is it an inherent weakness of Shadowrun that certain players
approach it like D&D with guns???

That is like saying that an inherent weakness of money is that people
are greedy. You are describing an inherent trait of certain gamers
and then tranferring that onto the game. Shadowrun, like virtually
every game in existance, is what the players/GM make of it. Period.

> I still like the cyberpunk genre, and I think it still has a lot of
> mileage if you get rid of the 80's trappings and replace them with
> something more current. But any game of that sort I'd play or GM
> today would be so far removed from Shadowrun as to make all canon
> completely meaningless.

I don't understand this at all. At its core, cyberpunk is a gritty,
dystopian action-scape populated by science-fantasy archetypes such
as disenfranchised social rebels, Machivellian corporate
money-mongers, crooked authority figures, unlikely heroes/saints
among the supporting cast, and shadowy puppet-masters. How has SR
really abandoned this genre? If the cyberpunk is gone from SR, it is
the people playing it who removed it. My SR games remain very much
cyberpunk, with the added metaphysics of magic being just as accepted
(and taken for granted) as gravity and inertia. Just because the guy
down the bar has pointy ears or a meter of height on you does not
make him any more or less a cyberpunk mainstay. Now, if the GM and
players start making their game into some parody of the cartoon/comic
book genre, then the cyberpunk element fades. But, that is not the
fault of the game itself.

Among the things I have come to like about SR3 is the effort the
writers are making to recapture a Gibson-esque flavor for the
setting. Partly, I think far too many of SR's fan base have come to
see the game as complicated and pure John Woo action-oriented. The
underlying tapestry of the game world is ignored. People are playing
the rules, not the game; the character sheets/dice, not the
characters. Mood, context, and sub-text are the responsibility of
the game's consumers as much as of the game creators. The real
gaming experience lies in the imagination and creativity of the
GM/players. I can write an immersive series of novels or screenplays
that capture the imaginations of a huge fanbase. The moment I write
a game for that setting, I am passing control of the experience to
the fanbase. If SR has lost its roots, I would blame the people
playing it, not the people keeping it alive for new generations of
fans.

All the groups of players who are finding SR too complicated/not CP
enough/basically inadequate for their purposes...

Is you GM presenting the game as those things?
Are you pre-judging the game as those things?
Are the other players reacting to the game as those things?

I find that the game master almost always sets the tone/pace/flavor
of the game. Hence, the bias/prejudice/preference they have dictates
the experience the players have. Ultimately, I guess I am saying
this: if you must go, then go, but don't go away mad. :) In
other words, don't blame the game. It is (IMO) a terrific setting, a
decent ruleset, and a very good handling of a unique concept. Your
experiences with the game are more a factor of who you played with,
and how you played, than any inherent trait of the game.



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Message no. 45
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:13:57 +0200
According to zebulingod@*******.net, on Friday 10 September 2004 18:43 the
word on the street was...

> To be fair, Gurth, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (the RPG, not the
> wargames) is actually a pretty unique and interesting game.

I meant the Warhammer Fantasy wargame, WH40K, Mordheim, etc. :)

> I'd love to
> run it more, but my players never quite made the switch out of the
> Shadowrun frame of mind. It has a totally different feel, but is pretty
> cool.

I've played the RPG once, and it was OK -- a bit oldfashioned in its
mechanics (another thing none of the die-hard WH players seem to
understand, BTW: that their favorite game is about as archaic as they
come) but I had fun playing it, and that's what counts.

As for the SR state of mind, I know exactly what you mean. Most of my
group, when we play something other than SR (or D&D), has a hard time
shaking off the shadowrunner mentality. They do stuff like invest in body
armor for daily wear when playing MechWarrior, leaving me to point out
that the greatest threat to their characters will not come from bar brawls
in that kind of game :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 46
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:32:18 -0300
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:13:45 -0700 (PDT), Ice Heart
<korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> > Now, I just don't care anymore. I've grown tired of the inherent
> > wackiness of the setting, and realized most people _do_ play it as
> > D&D with guns. People can adapt it to anything they like - it's
> > their game, even if I wouldn't play in it.
>
> How is it an inherent weakness of Shadowrun that certain players
> approach it like D&D with guns???

I didn't say it was a weakness. It's just something that used to get
me all riled up, but doesn't anymore.

The classical D&D adventure is one where you get some information from
an old man in a tavern, explore a labyrinthic dungeon while killing
its inhabitants in order to ger to the big pile of treasure at the
end.

The classical Shadowrun adventure is one where you get a job from a
Mr. Johnson in a bar, break into a labyrinthic corporate complex while
killing its security (in one way or another) to get to something which
is worth a big pile of nuyen at the end.

The two aren't that different, especially when you look at them
through an outsider's perspective. Sure, you can do lots of deeply
immersive and dramatic stories in Shadowrun, but the same is true for
D&D or any other game out there.

The group can make anything they want out of the game, but the
"classical adventures" are the type of thing that's most supported by
the game itself, both in terms of rules and GM advice. If a group
comes to either Shadowrun or D&D without a crystal clear idea of what
they want to do, they're most likely to follow the pre-set "classical"
models in the book - and the presence of such a model is one of the
reasons these games have lasted as long as they have.


>
> I don't understand this at all. At its core, cyberpunk is a gritty,
> dystopian action-scape populated by science-fantasy archetypes such
> as disenfranchised social rebels, Machivellian corporate
> money-mongers, crooked authority figures, unlikely heroes/saints
> among the supporting cast, and shadowy puppet-masters. How has SR
> really abandoned this genre?

First of all, I didn't say Shadowrun abandoned the genre - it's just
not the kind of cyberpunk I prefer.

Two of the main themes of cyberpunk, in my view, are opression (and
the struggle against it) and the sudden, constant changes the world
goes through (and how people react to them). Once you have one of
these two in place, you can vary the specific elements to get the
result you want.

The "80's trappings" I mentioned in my previous message were things
like corporations as the opressors (with Japanese megacorps being
especially "evil" ones), the Specter of Communism, superchromed punks
with flashing mohawks and big-ass cyberlimbs, the Gibsonesque Matrix,
and the many pieces of "advanced tech" that ended up becoming quite
"retro" after a few years. Those are just window dressing. Replace
them with something else and cyberpunk remains equally valid, tough
probably not "punk" anymore.

There were also other SR-specific things I didn't like from the start,
like the whole idea of Amazonia.

The short story is, if I'm going to play this game the way I like,
I'll be changing so much I'd rather go with a new rule system and make
my own setting up.

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 47
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod@*******.net)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:39:33 -0700
Bira wrote:
>
> The short story is, if I'm going to play this game the way I
> like, I'll be changing so much I'd rather go with a new rule
> system and make my own setting up.
>

Then you might as well be playing a different game. You obviously don't want
to play Shadowrun.

Zeb

"Per Ardua ad Astra"
Message no. 48
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:42:25 -0300
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:10:26 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to Bira, on Friday 10 September 2004 14:46 the word on the street
> was...
>
> > most people _do_ play it as D&D with guns.
>
> They do? Must be my group, then -- over the last six months or so, we've
> gotten a few new players who were mostly used to D&D and Vampire, and
> initially tried playing SR as if it were D&D. They quickly found out that,
> at least with me GMing, that simply won't work.

To be truthful, "most people" refers basically to the fan community at
the Dumpshock forums. About the only SR players I knew face-to-face
were those I GMed to after teaching them what the game was about, and
their approach to the game was also very D&D-ish (mission-based, "I
want to use my cool powers"), with the advantage that they weren't
hung up on canon like many DS members.

I think one of the SR sessions they liked the most was one were they
explored an Aztec ruin and fought off zombies. There's nothing wrong
with that, but at the time I was too wrapped up in my little view of
what SR should be to make something good out of it :).

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 49
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:52:35 -0300
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:39:33 -0700, zebulingod@*******.net
<zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> Bira wrote:
> >
> > The short story is, if I'm going to play this game the way I
> > like, I'll be changing so much I'd rather go with a new rule
> > system and make my own setting up.
> >
>
> Then you might as well be playing a different game. You obviously don't want
> to play Shadowrun.

Exactly :) !

I just hang around here for the conversation :).

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 50
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:00:53 +0100
In article <200409101238.41863.gurth@******.nl>, Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
writes
>Then again, maybe my perceptions are colored by the fact that about the
>only gamers I come into contact with these days who aren't in my SR group,
>are ones whose exposure to gaming is limited to up to five games, in
>roughly this order: Magic, Warhammer (and variants), Yu Gi Oh (sp?), D&D,
>and Mageknight.

AD&D, Runequest, Top Secret, MERP, Traveller, Golden Heroes, Twilight
2000, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk 2020, Star Trek RPG...

What can I say? It was a while ago but I played a lot.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 51
From: failhelm@*****.com (failhelm)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:01:29 -0700 (PDT)
--- Bull <bull@*********.com> wrote:

> At 08:25 PM 9/8/2004, failhelm wrote:
>
> >My bigger concern is SR continues to be published.
> >Wizkids SR site is out of date and isn't even
> finished
> >(see timeline). If you hit their site you'd think
> >that Duels was the only SR system, little mention
> of
> >the Unplugged RPG.
> Probably been discussed already, but bear with, I'm
> playing Catch Up.
>
> Wizkids does not publish Shadowrun, Fantasy
> productions (FanPro)
> does. Wizkids owns the proerty, and outside of
> administering and approving
> material (which is mostly formality and to make sure
> stuff conforms to the
> license) theyu have absolutely zero input and impact
> on the RPG. Mike
> Mulvihill, the old Line Dev for Shadowrun under FASA
> (And one time list
> member) handles the licensing end of things for
> Wizkids, while Rob Boyle,
> Mike's assistant at FASA, is now heading up FanPro
> LLC, the U.S. division
> of FanPro that handles the Shadowrun game. Almost
> everyone involved with
> the game now is the same group that was handling the
> game under FASA, with
> the exception of a few Freelancers that have either
> moved on or been
> brought into the fold.
>
> Shadowrun's website is not on the Wizkids site, it
> has it's own
> site: ShadowrunRPG.com. FanPro's main site is in
> German (as the main
> company itself is a German RPG company), but has
> links to the SHadowrun
> site as needed.
>
> Bull
>

Perhaps it is only a vision illusion that I fell for,
I knew the legal stuff. It was just that the flash
section of their site seemed to target the table top
and not as much the duels shtuff, thanks Bull!

- Failhelm
Message no. 52
From: failhelm@*****.com (failhelm)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:11:38 -0700 (PDT)
--- Bira <u.alberton@*****.com> wrote:


> The classical D&D adventure is one where you get
> some information from
> an old man in a tavern, explore a labyrinthic
> dungeon while killing
> its inhabitants in order to ger to the big pile of
> treasure at the
> end.
>
> The classical Shadowrun adventure is one where you
> get a job from a
> Mr. Johnson in a bar, break into a labyrinthic
> corporate complex while
> killing its security (in one way or another) to get
> to something which
> is worth a big pile of nuyen at the end.
>
> The two aren't that different, especially when you
> look at them
> through an outsider's perspective. Sure, you can do
> lots of deeply
> immersive and dramatic stories in Shadowrun, but the
> same is true for
> D&D or any other game out there.
>
> The group can make anything they want out of the
> game, but the
> "classical adventures" are the type of thing that's
> most supported by
> the game itself, both in terms of rules and GM
> advice. If a group
> comes to either Shadowrun or D&D without a crystal
> clear idea of what
> they want to do, they're most likely to follow the
> pre-set "classical"
> models in the book - and the presence of such a
> model is one of the
> reasons these games have lasted as long as they
> have.
> --
> Bira
> http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
>
I'm a long time AD&D 1st edtion DM, and I love SR
setting. I haven't really found much of difference in
setting up a game either. It took reading several
source books to get a strong feel for the game.

I've even used some AD&D Modules and converted the
story to a modern times with a great twist. Even my
long term players have failed to notice.

At the same time though there are some elements from
each system that do not cross over well.

- Failhelm
Message no. 53
From: failhelm@*****.com (failhelm)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:19:18 -0700 (PDT)
--- zebulingod@*******.net wrote:

> Bira wrote:
> >
> > The short story is, if I'm going to play this game
> the way I
> > like, I'll be changing so much I'd rather go with
> a new rule
> > system and make my own setting up.
> >
>
> Then you might as well be playing a different game.
> You obviously don't want
> to play Shadowrun.
>
> Zeb
>
> "Per Ardua ad Astra"
>

I would disagree. As a long term GM/DM I'm actually
not used to letting my campaign be set up with so much
history and specifics. Fortunetly the writters for SR
are some of the top in the industry, making it
manageable for my "free" style of GMing.

However, I will still insist on allowing my campaign
to significantly change away from the sourcebooks if
that is what happens. Unfortunatly this can eventually
make future source books useless, but that is some of
the give and take you get with this kind of story
setup, @ least I believe it is.

Then again I always do on-going campaigns, meaning
when the part dies the next crew signs on board during
the same time-line as the previous with the same
events.

- Failhelm
Message no. 54
From: bull@*********.com (Bull)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:31:50 -0400
At 08:01 PM 9/10/2004, failhelm wrote:

>Perhaps it is only a vision illusion that I fell for,
>I knew the legal stuff. It was just that the flash
>section of their site seemed to target the table top
>and not as much the duels shtuff, thanks Bull!
>
>- Failhelm

Well, I do know that Wizkids was interested in helping to promote the game
initially. As I mentioned, Mike Mulvihill works for Wizkids now as a game
designer and still maintains the SR license for them. When Duels came out,
it was envisions as a game that could branch between minis and Shadowrun, I
think. The Wizkids page was going to be designed to be interesting for
players of the RPG as well as still be very informative for new players,
giving them background into the world and all.

Unfortunatly the game didn;t succeed, and with it's demise Wizkids simply
moved on. It sucks, but... <shrug>

I don't think Wizkids has completely abandoned Shadowrun as a potential
miniatures property, but it may be a while before we see anything come of it :/

Bull
Message no. 55
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:51:50 +0200
According to Bira, on Friday 10 September 2004 22:32 the word on the street
was...

> There were also other SR-specific things I didn't like from the start,
> like the whole idea of Amazonia.

That's just because you live there :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 56
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:54:02 +0200
According to Paul J. Adam, on Friday 10 September 2004 23:00 the word on
the street was...

> AD&D, Runequest, Top Secret, MERP, Traveller, Golden Heroes, Twilight
> 2000, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk 2020, Star Trek RPG...
>
> What can I say? It was a while ago but I played a lot.

Much the same here, and if I didn't play it then there's at least a good
chance I've at least heard of it and know the basics of the setting. Not
so with most of the M:TG/GW fans out there, though :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 57
From: lists@*******.com (Wordman)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:28:28 -0400
On Sep 10, 2004, at 1:13 PM, Ice Heart wrote:
> People are playing
> the rules, not the game; the character sheets/dice, not the
> characters. Mood, context, and sub-text are the responsibility of
> the game's consumers as much as of the game creators.

But some games are way better at transmitting this to the players than
others. Before I got distracted by Exalted, I was planning a serious
Unknown Armies game. If you've never heard of this, and dig games for
their mood and setting, check it. Some of the most inventive rules I've
ever seen, especially for insanity:

http://www.atlas-games.com/ua_index.html

Wordman
Message no. 58
From: lists@*******.com (Wordman)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:33:57 -0400
On Sep 10, 2004, at 5:00 PM, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> AD&D, Runequest, Top Secret, MERP, Traveller, Golden Heroes, Twilight
> 2000, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk 2020, Star Trek RPG...

Gama World, Paranoia, Champions, Ars Magica... Star Frontiers (sigh... )
Message no. 59
From: lists@*******.com (Wordman)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:31:20 -0400
On Sep 10, 2004, at 4:52 PM, Bira wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:39:33 -0700, zebulingod@*******.net
> <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
>> Then you might as well be playing a different game. You obviously
>> don't want
>> to play Shadowrun.
>
> Exactly :) !
>
> I just hang around here for the conversation :).

This is actually a good point. One thing I failed to mention about
Exalted is that it's on-line fan base can't hold a candle the SR
community. How did we do that?

Wordman
Message no. 60
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:09:42 +0200
According to Wordman, on Saturday 11 September 2004 19:31 the word on the
street was...

> This is actually a good point. One thing I failed to mention about
> Exalted is that it's on-line fan base can't hold a candle the SR
> community. How did we do that?

Not sure, but it's probably in a large part due to this list. But I'm
already at the turn toward Nostalgia Lane again, so I'll stop here and see
if I can find another road somewhere :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 61
From: nichlas.hummelsberger@*****.com (Nichlas Hummelsberger)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:14:38 +0200
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:31:20 -0400, Wordman <lists@*******.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sep 10, 2004, at 4:52 PM, Bira wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:39:33 -0700, zebulingod@*******.net
> > <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> >> Then you might as well be playing a different game. You obviously
> >> don't want
> >> to play Shadowrun.
> >
> > Exactly :) !
> >
> > I just hang around here for the conversation :).
>
> This is actually a good point. One thing I failed to mention about
> Exalted is that it's on-line fan base can't hold a candle the SR
> community. How did we do that?

Exalted gets pretty good airtime on rpg.net.. it just doesn't have the
nexus (dumpshock) that shadowrun has.. and then there's the
computergeek/cyberpunk relationship that gave shadowrun a head start
online :)
Message no. 62
From: dghost@****.com (dghost@****.com)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:49:42 -0500
According to Bira, on Friday 10 September 2004 22:32 the word on the
street was...
> > There were also other SR-specific things I didn't like from the
start,
> > like the whole idea of Amazonia.

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:51:50 +0200 Gurth <gurth@******.nl> writes:
> That's just because you live there :)

LOL. Yeah, that seems to pretty common. I know of someone who's not to
fond of what happened in Europe (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge) and I'm not to
fond of the South/Texas .... go figure :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 63
From: dghost@****.com (dghost@****.com)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:51:54 -0500
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:09:42 +0200 Gurth <gurth@******.nl> writes:
> Not sure, but it's probably in a large part due to this list. But I'm
> already at the turn toward Nostalgia Lane again, so I'll stop here and
see
> if I can find another road somewhere :)

Oddly, that reminds me ... Does anybody still do list shirts? :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

________________________________________________________________
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Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more
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Message no. 64
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:06:39 +0200
According to dghost@****.com, on Sunday 12 September 2004 07:51 the word on
the street was...

> Oddly, that reminds me ... Does anybody still do list shirts? :)

The last one was in 1999, as I recall :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 65
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:10:13 +0200
According to dghost@****.com, on Sunday 12 September 2004 07:49 the word on
the street was...

> LOL. Yeah, that seems to pretty common. I know of someone who's not to
> fond of what happened in Europe (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

The good thing is that it's been toned down. The bad thing is that it's
also been replaced by other things I don't like. I like to think I managed
to steer the author of the Netherlands write-up in SOE away from some of
his more extreme ideas, though :)

> and I'm not to fond of the South/Texas .... go figure :)

Very quickly after finding this list, I already came to the conclusion that
what's in location sourcebooks appears to be well-liked by people who
don't have a close connection to the place, while it's usually proclaimed
to be a very poor treatment of the place by those who do...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 66
From: nichlas.hummelsberger@*****.com (Nichlas Hummelsberger)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:12:27 +0200
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:10:13 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> Very quickly after finding this list, I already came to the conclusion that
> what's in location sourcebooks appears to be well-liked by people who
> don't have a close connection to the place, while it's usually proclaimed
> to be a very poor treatment of the place by those who do...

"poor treatment"? we were drowned in TOXIC SLUDGE.. come on! :D
Message no. 67
From: pentaj2@********.edu (John C. Penta)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:20:29 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Nichlas Hummelsberger <nichlas.hummelsberger@*****.com>
Date: Sunday, September 12, 2004 6:12 am
Subject: Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore

> On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:10:13 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> > Very quickly after finding this list, I already came to the
> conclusion that
> > what's in location sourcebooks appears to be well-liked by
> people who
> > don't have a close connection to the place, while it's usually
> proclaimed> to be a very poor treatment of the place by those who
> do...
> "poor treatment"? we were drowned in TOXIC SLUDGE.. come on! :D
>

Y'are below sea level, remember...:-)

More on-topic, that's something I remember when I saw New York and New Jersey in NAGNA
(and later), as well.

The end of the day, the location books are a pissing contest: Who can break an area worse,
or at least impose their latest masturbatory fantasies.

Once you realize that, it all becomes easier to accept, and you start to look for in-game
consistency.
---

And, even closer to topic, I still play SR; Only online, though.

I will, however, note that, yeah. In a lot of ways, SR has become sort of dated. Not as
dated, certainly, as other games. The vague outlines of the setting still are relevant.
The game system works.

But a lot of the details have aged badly.

John
Message no. 68
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:33:06 +0200
According to Nichlas Hummelsberger, on Sunday 12 September 2004 12:12 the
word on the street was...

> "poor treatment"? we were drowned in TOXIC SLUDGE.. come on! :D

Hey, I didn't say I was satisfied with the way north-western Europe turned
out, either... (Ask the long-term listmembers :) If you ask me, what
happened when FanPro (Germany) wanted to write DidS, they first took a
very long and hard look at what FASA had done to North America, and then
decided to put all the same stuff into Germany. When it turned out there
wasn't room, they must have decided to also inflict the same hardship on
the neighboring countries...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 69
From: nichlas.hummelsberger@*****.com (Nichlas Hummelsberger)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:35:11 +0200
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:20:29 -0400, John C. Penta <pentaj2@********.edu> wrote:
> The end of the day, the location books are a pissing contest: Who can break an area
> worse, or at least impose their latest masturbatory fantasies.
>
> Once you realize that, it all becomes easier to accept, and you start to look for
in-game consistency.

Sure, but what about all the ideas for european fan material based on
actual Europe.. most of it wouldn't be possible with this disastrous
past...

And where *did* the sludge come from? i haven't seen any good explanations yet..

(i'm from Denmark btw., not actually below sea-level)
Message no. 70
From: collin-w@*******.net (Collin White)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:45:21 -0400
"LOL. Yeah, that seems to pretty common. I know of someone who's not to
fond of what happened in Europe (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge) and I'm not to
fond of the South/Texas .... go figure :)"

I'm pretty happy with what they've done with the Boston sprawl area. As
much as I love Seattle, it's easier to relate to what's in my back yard.

That being said, I imagine the folks most pissed are the one who live in
Chicago.

Collin
Message no. 71
From: allura@***********.org (Joanna Hurley)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:45:27 -0400
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of
> Nichlas Hummelsberger

> On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:10:13 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:


> > it's usually
> > proclaimed to be a very poor treatment of the place by
> those who do...
>
> "poor treatment"? we were drowned in TOXIC SLUDGE.. come on! :D


They built an airport on my in-law's house.....

My apartment is just smack in the middle of sprawl, but that's already here
*wry*.

Joanna
Message no. 72
From: alex.case@*******.net (Alexander Case)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 18:39:07 -0700
Wordman wrote:

>
> On Sep 10, 2004, at 4:52 PM, Bira wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:39:33 -0700, zebulingod@*******.net
>> <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Then you might as well be playing a different game. You obviously
>>> don't want
>>> to play Shadowrun.
>>
>>
>> Exactly :) !
>>
>> I just hang around here for the conversation :).
>
>
> This is actually a good point. One thing I failed to mention about
> Exalted is that it's on-line fan base can't hold a candle the SR
> community. How did we do that?


Oh, there are lots of Shaodowrun web pages. It's just a bunch of them
are in German (sort of like most of the James Bond RPG web pages are in
French). ;-)
Message no. 73
From: matthew.compton@*****.com (Matt)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:13:18 -0700
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:10:13 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> According to dghost@****.com, on Sunday 12 September 2004 07:49 the word on
> the street was...
>
> > LOL. Yeah, that seems to pretty common. I know of someone who's not to
> > fond of what happened in Europe (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge)
>
> The good thing is that it's been toned down. The bad thing is that it's
> also been replaced by other things I don't like. I like to think I managed
> to steer the author of the Netherlands write-up in SOE away from some of
> his more extreme ideas, though :)
>
> > and I'm not to fond of the South/Texas .... go figure :)
>
> Very quickly after finding this list, I already came to the conclusion that
> what's in location sourcebooks appears to be well-liked by people who
> don't have a close connection to the place, while it's usually proclaimed
> to be a very poor treatment of the place by those who do...
>
>

I'm actually a little different when it comes the city source books.
I'm from Seattle, and I actually liked what they did to our city. But
that's just because they actually made us seem important. :-)
Message no. 74
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:35:17 -0300
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:20:29 -0400, John C. Penta <pentaj2@********.edu> wrote:

> Once you realize that, it all becomes easier to accept, and you start to look for
in-game consistency.

Granted, they don't actually talk much about Amazonia on the books
I've read, but the impression I get from reading what they do say (and
I got the same impression from reading the Vladivostok entry in
Smuggler Havens) was that the country was just taken over by lions and
tigers and bears (oh my!), with the fact that the animals were
Awakened being enough to make them defeat a more-or-less modern
military.

At least North America got a story about the Great Ghost Dance :).

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 75
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:54:19 +0200
According to Nichlas Hummelsberger, on Sunday 12 September 2004 13:35 the
word on the street was...

> Sure, but what about all the ideas for european fan material based on
> actual Europe.. most of it wouldn't be possible with this disastrous
> past...

I'm not too sure about that. It might have taken a slightly different
direction (not so much destruction) but in the end, it all basically
depends on the way FASA set SR on initially.

> And where *did* the sludge come from? i haven't seen any good
> explanations yet..

Same here. For some reason, the DidS people made the entire North Sea one
big toxic sludge. Now, it may not be the cleanest sea in the world (I say
that living practically on its shores -- a five-minute walk puts me onto
the beach) but if it were anywhere near as toxic as DidS makes it out to
be, there wouldn't be hundreds of thousands of tourists coming to those
same beaches around here every year...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 76
From: marc.renouf@******.com (Renouf, Marc A)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:49:43 -0400
Okay, I'm coming in on the tail end of this conversation (I was on
travel for work ... right up until Hurricane Ivan forced an evacuation), so
forgive me if I cover old ground or beat a dead horse.

Here's the deal: 3rd Edition Shadowrun has largely streamlined
virtually all of the rules needed to actually play the game. No longer does
magic or rigging work under a *completely* different rules mechanic than
anything else. Spells are now "weapons" wielded with the Sorcery skill just
like an Area Predator is a weapon wielded with the Pistol skill. The only
difference is that you get to choose the power level of the attack.
The only notable exception to this streamlining is Decking, in which
the rating of the program is often a target number modifier. But that's
simple and easy to remember, and largely only applies to non-combat
applications. During cybercombat, your Attack pregrams are weapons wielded
with your Decking skill - just like regular combat and magic.
Are there lots of goofy rules that cover a plethora of strange and
unusual situations? Yes, there are. Do you need to use them in everyday
play? No, you do not. I'd never had occasion to use the Firearms Design
Rules until I had a player who wanted to enter the game with a pair of
custom pistols. We looked up the pertinent rules in the book to create the
pistols, determine their capabilities and set their price - then promptly
forgot those rules because they were no longer important. We had the end
product, which was all that really mattered in the scope of the game.
The vehicle design rules are similar; most times, you won't need
them. And when you *do* need them, it's because you have a player who's
interested in pushing the envelope for his or her character's particular
niche - something that should be *encouraged* but which isn't strictly
necessary. And again, you only need to go through the design rigamarole
when it's important. Once the drone/vehicle/program/spell/gun is designed
and built/coded/learned, those design rules no longer impact play and you
can forget them.
I think that people from some of the old-school rules systems feel
like they are under an onus to know and use every rule in every published
rulebook or supplement. This may stem from the old days of role-playing,
when *all* of the rules fit concisely in a leaflet, and it was easy to
remember. Or from when there was a table or chart for pretty much
everything you wanted to do.
By the nature of it's post-modern setting, Shadowrun presents
players with an immensely wide array of possible options and opportunities,
far more than any fantasy setting I've ever encountered. And since it
incorporates magic, spirits, and astral space, it incorporates a level of
opportunity not presented by most sci-fi settings I've encountered. No
other system out there encompasses such a wide variety of tasks under one
roof. There's simply a massive amount of stuff a player can do, and there
needs to be a framework in place to at least give the GM some ideas for how
to handle the more common occurrences. But for the most part, that
framework is very smoothly defined, and the exceptions are few and easy to
remember.
But for the less common stuff (vehicle design, spell design, etc),
the game designers have gone the extra mile to allow players and GMs the
ability to truly customize their campaigns. But here's the catch: those
rules are what I think of as *reference* rules - you look them up and use
them only when you need them, because you don't need them often enough to
merit actually remembering them. And if you never need them, then it
doesn't matter, so quit worrying about it.
I don't feel "buried" under the weight of the rules in Shadowrun.
On the contrary, it's very liberating for both players and GMs alike to know
that they have so many options, and that should they actually want or need
guidance on some rules aspect that there's probably already at least a basic
system in place (a system which the GM is free to adopt, modify, or ignore
in order to best suit the needs of his or her campaign).

Concerning the setting, I have to say that I don't find the
cyberpunk genre "dated," but I think that this has largely to do with
interpretation. I've always run my games with a far more dark, gritty,
dystopian feel. It's not about the "fears of the '80s," it's about the
dehumanizing effects of technology, globalization, and consumer-culture.
Sure, it's hard to make a case for the dominance of Japanese
megacorporations in the current economic climate, but if you look at the
trends of large multinational corporations, the precedents for massive
mergers, acquisitions, and takeovers is already there.
Furthermore, I try to avoid a lot of the "cheese" associated with
simply plunking fantasy elements into a modern setting. Magic and
metahumanity have had profound effects on the world. Orks and trolls are
not simply cartoonish buffoons to be blasted by the players. I try to
convey that they are real people who by the nature of their differing
physiology have a hard time adapting to "mainstream" society. Elves may on
the whole be more "attractive" than humans, but that doesn't mean that they
don't suffer from the effects of institutional or downright personal racism.
Magic is a powerful force, but so are fear and superstition. Some people
value or look up to mages for their abilities, but others view them simply
as a threat to be eradicated, or at the very least avoided.

I stopped playing Shadowrun for about two years. This was not due
to any dissatisfaction with the system or the setting, but rather due to
general GM burnout. I had been running Shadowrun (and other) games steadily
from 1989 to 2001. I needed a break. I needed to be a player instead of a
GM for a while. Now that my muse has returned, I'm back to running games.
I'm enjoying it and I hope my players are too.
But for my money, Shadowrun has one of the best rules systems out
there. It's simple, elegant, easy to use, and adapts itself well to an
extremely wide variety of situations. Even my house rules are less complete
re-writes than they are extensions of existing rules. I like it so much, in
fact, that I run my medieval fantasy campaign using a slightly modified
version of the Shadowrun rules.

Marc
Message no. 77
From: jcotton1@*********.net (Joseph Cotton)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:55:44 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Renouf, Marc A
> No other system out there encompasses such a wide variety of
> tasks under one roof.

Two words.
GURPS
Hero

Joe Cotton
Message no. 78
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:17:23 -0300
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:55:44 -0400, Joseph Cotton
<jcotton1@*********.net> wrote:
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Renouf, Marc A
> > No other system out there encompasses such a wide variety of
> > tasks under one roof.
>
> Two words.
> GURPS
> Hero

Cases can also be made for Tri-stat and some versions of
Storyteller/Storytelling.


--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 79
From: lists@*******.com (Wordman)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:46:25 -0400
On Sep 15, 2004, at 4:49 PM, Renouf, Marc A wrote:
> But for my money, Shadowrun has one of the best rules systems out
> there. It's simple, elegant, easy to use, and adapts itself well to an
> extremely wide variety of situations.

For all my SR bashing, the actual system seems fine to me (with the
notable exception of the Matrix system, which is fundamentally
completely wrong for telling good stories). The only general issue I
have with the system is that the power curve is a bit too short. Once
players get skills of 6 or 7, they become uninteresting because they
can almost never fail.

This is something (possibly the only thing) that the mechanics of
Earthdawn did really well.
Message no. 80
From: dghost@****.com (dghost@****.com)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:52:16 -0500
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:46:25 -0400 Wordman <lists@*******.com> writes:
> For all my SR bashing, the actual system seems fine to me (with the
> notable exception of the Matrix system, which is fundamentally
> completely wrong for telling good stories).
<SNiP>

Have you checked out the streamlined Matrix system (and rigging system)
in Mr Johnson's Little Black Book. They span about 2 pages and handle all
your normal mid-shadowrun decking tests. I haven't used them yet, but I
imagine they are much faster to use. :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 81
From: marc.renouf@******.com (Renouf, Marc A)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:21:05 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jcotton1@*********.net [mailto:jcotton1@*********.net]
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Renouf, Marc A
> > No other system out there encompasses such a wide variety of
> > tasks under one roof.
>
> Two words.
> GURPS
> Hero

Perhaps, but my scorn for class-and-level-based systems knows no
bounds. That's why for all it's improvements D&D3E or 3.5E or whichever
version they're up to now) is just lipstick on a pig. But that's an
entirely different discussion, and probably not germane to the topic at
hand.

Marc
Message no. 82
From: marc.renouf@******.com (Renouf, Marc A)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:32:14 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lists@*******.com [mailto:lists@*******.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 9:46 PM
>
> For all my SR bashing, the actual system seems fine to me (with the
> notable exception of the Matrix system, which is fundamentally
> completely wrong for telling good stories). The only general issue I
> have with the system is that the power curve is a bit too short. Once
> players get skills of 6 or 7, they become uninteresting because they
> can almost never fail.

I disagree, but I think that it has a lot to do with the way the GM
runs the campaign. My old saw (which I've been on since the early 90's) is
that modifiers are the life's blood of Shadowrun. Without them, you're
absolutely right - any skill over about 6 leads to more or less instant
success.
But there's nothing more satisfying than having one of your players'
wired-to-the-gills combat monsters roll gobs of skill and pool dice in a
combat situation and look at you sheepishly, saying "I missed." It happens
a lot. Remember than once the target number climbs to a 10, a skill of 6 is
only 50% likely to produce a success. And target numbers that I see are so
often higher than 10. One of my players' decker character rolls an obscene
amount of dice for anything he tries to do in the Matrix, but the target
numbers are quite often equally obscene. Sure, he makes the basic LTG/RTG
systems look like childs' play - to the point that he pretty much just tells
me what all he wants to do and we consider it done. But for the more
difficult systems, things are still plenty challenging. And it's not like I
have Red-8 systems tucked into every office building and convenience store.

Marc
Message no. 83
From: zadoc@***.neu.edu (Damian)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:37:58 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004, Renouf, Marc A wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: jcotton1@*********.net [mailto:jcotton1@*********.net]
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Renouf, Marc A
> > > No other system out there encompasses such a wide variety of
> > > tasks under one roof.
> > Two words.
> > GURPS
> > Hero
>
> Perhaps, but my scorn for class-and-level-based systems knows no
> bounds.

That's fine... but GURPS and Hero are point-based systems.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damian Sharp of Real Life |
| Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now to unleash screaming temporal doom!"
Message no. 84
From: allura@***********.org (Joanna Hurley)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:55:28 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of
> Renouf, Marc A

> Sure, he makes the basic LTG/RTG systems look like
> childs' play - to the point that he pretty much just tells me
> what all he wants to do and we consider it done. But for the
> more difficult systems, things are still plenty challenging.
> And it's not like I have Red-8 systems tucked into every
> office building and convenience store.


And this is why I DO like Shadowrun's system. The easy stuff is just that,
easy. The hard stuff is, well, hard. You can waltz through an easy system,
cast minor spells all day long, or hit a paper target till you run out of
ammo. But make that a moving, dodging, target in really bad light, after
you've taken a hit or two yourself, and it's going to be...challenging.

Joanna
-who's real challenge is getting players to make time IRL
Message no. 85
From: jcotton1@*********.net (jcotton1@*********.net)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:55:59 -0400
> From: "Renouf, Marc A" <marc.renouf@******.com>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: jcotton1@*********.net [mailto:jcotton1@*********.net]
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Renouf, Marc A
> > > No other system out there encompasses such a wide variety of
> > > tasks under one roof.
> >
> > Two words.
> > GURPS
> > Hero
>
> Perhaps, but my scorn for class-and-level-based systems knows no
> bounds.

Okay, but what does that have to do with either GURPS or Hero, both of which are
point-based systems?


Joseph M. Cotton
"There are only two stories in all of literature -- a man goes on a journey, and a
stranger comes to town." Leo Tolstoy
Message no. 86
From: crowley@*********.ch (Michael Schmidt)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:33:44 +0200
Wordman wrote:
>
> On Sep 15, 2004, at 4:49 PM, Renouf, Marc A wrote:
>
>> But for my money, Shadowrun has one of the best rules systems out
>> there. It's simple, elegant, easy to use, and adapts itself well to an
>> extremely wide variety of situations.
>
>
> For all my SR bashing, the actual system seems fine to me (with the
> notable exception of the Matrix system, which is fundamentally
> completely wrong for telling good stories). The only general issue I

The Matrix system is the best I have ever seen till now ( but it is bad
for telling good stories, at least without a lot of changes).
Try running the Matrix with cyberpunk rules, you'll stop after 45 secs
and throw away the rule book.

> have with the system is that the power curve is a bit too short. Once
> players get skills of 6 or 7, they become uninteresting because they can
> almost never fail.

Solution: Less karma, or forbid them to raise the particular skill at
that time. (Reason: No teacher or not the right books for training.)
Message no. 87
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:49:26 -0600
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:33:44 +0200, Michael Schmidt
<crowley@*********.ch> wrote:
>
>
> Wordman wrote:
> >
> > On Sep 15, 2004, at 4:49 PM, Renouf, Marc A wrote:
> >
> >> But for my money, Shadowrun has one of the best rules systems out
> >> there. It's simple, elegant, easy to use, and adapts itself well to an
> >> extremely wide variety of situations.
> >
> >
> > For all my SR bashing, the actual system seems fine to me (with the
> > notable exception of the Matrix system, which is fundamentally
> > completely wrong for telling good stories). The only general issue I
>
> The Matrix system is the best I have ever seen till now ( but it is bad
> for telling good stories, at least without a lot of changes).
> Try running the Matrix with cyberpunk rules, you'll stop after 45 secs
> and throw away the rule book.

Just because it's better than any alternative doesn't mean it's good ;)

--
-Graht
Message no. 88
From: marc.renouf@******.com (Renouf, Marc A)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:42:33 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jcotton1@*********.net [mailto:jcotton1@*********.net]
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 11:56 PM
> >
> > Perhaps, but my scorn for class-and-level-based systems knows no
> > bounds.
>
> Okay, but what does that have to do with either GURPS or
> Hero, both of which are point-based systems?

Whoops! My bad. For some reason, I was under the impression that
while character creation was point-based, the GURPS system used a level
mechanic once play began. But then again, it's been fifteen years since I
played GURPS anything. I stand corrected.

Marc
Message no. 89
From: james@****.uow.edu.au (James Niall Zealey)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:25:42 +1000
> "Renouf, Marc A" <marc.renouf@******.com>

> Okay, I'm coming in on the tail end of this conversation (I was on
> travel for work ... right up until Hurricane Ivan forced an evacuation), so
> forgive me if I cover old ground or beat a dead horse.
>
> Here's the deal: 3rd Edition Shadowrun has largely streamlined
> virtually all of the rules needed to actually play the game. No longer does
> magic or rigging work under a *completely* different rules mechanic than
> anything else. Spells are now "weapons" wielded with the Sorcery skill
just
> like an Area Predator is a weapon wielded with the Pistol skill. The only
> difference is that you get to choose the power level of the attack.

And the fact that you can't dodge them. Well, some of them anyway. And
the fact that they have a minimum damage level before fading to nothing.
Well, some of them anyway.

There're as many differences as there are similarities. And to me,
that's a bad thing.

Beyond that - is a spell more like a pistol or a club? Because the rules
for resolving those attacks are different too (beyond just which
modifiers apply).


> The only notable exception to this streamlining is Decking, in which
> the rating of the program is often a target number modifier. But that's
> simple and easy to remember, and largely only applies to non-combat
> applications. During cybercombat, your Attack pregrams are weapons wielded
> with your Decking skill - just like regular combat and magic.

Again - there are a lot of small variations. What happens to a
cybercombat wound once it's staged beyond deadly for instance? Does the
power increase, or does it just need more resistances to stage back
down? What are all those combat maneuver rules for?

Beyond that - why are the regular decking rules so different to every
other tool-use rule out there? Why are they so different to the normal
rules for task resolution?

> But for the less common stuff (vehicle design, spell design, etc),
> the game designers have gone the extra mile to allow players and GMs the
> ability to truly customize their campaigns. But here's the catch: those
> rules are what I think of as *reference* rules - you look them up and use
> them only when you need them, because you don't need them often enough to
> merit actually remembering them. And if you never need them, then it
> doesn't matter, so quit worrying about it.

The problem is - these aren't the rules that are the problem. These
rules do what they were made to do fairly well - you can describe what
you want, pick out what components make it, and end up with a price or
drain. They don't impact gameplay. They don't slow down gameplay. They
don't confuse players - because any player using them has the book open
and in front of them.

Look how big the SR book is. Look how much of it is rules. Look how much
of it actually explains the core mechanic. Now look how much of it is
exceptions to that.

> I don't feel "buried" under the weight of the rules in Shadowrun.
> On the contrary, it's very liberating for both players and GMs alike to know
> that they have so many options, and that should they actually want or need
> guidance on some rules aspect that there's probably already at least a basic
> system in place (a system which the GM is free to adopt, modify, or ignore
> in order to best suit the needs of his or her campaign).
>

The arguement "you can always change the system to your liking" is a
weak one at best. If I have to change too much, I may as well use
something else.

I think SR has a very strong core mechanic - that of opposed rolls (plus
all the attendant rules for retries, reducing time, modifiers etc). I
think the mechanic of open rolls is complete crap, but maybe that's just me.

I think SR could be a far better system if someone went through it and
removed the pointless exceptions that don't fit with any real-world
explanation.

Top of my hit list would be "melee attacks and ranged attacks are
resolved in the same way - past deadly, staging increases the power of
the attack".
Message no. 90
From: caseless@*****.com (Stephen Allee)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 04:58:57 -0700
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:25:42 +1000, James Niall Zealey
<james@****.uow.edu.au> wrote:
> Top of my hit list would be "melee attacks and ranged attacks are
> resolved in the same way - past deadly, staging increases the power of
> the attack".

My first change would be to the demolitions rules, but that's mostly
because a properly placed chunk of Type XII works a whole lot faster
(and correspondingly louder) than trying to pick a maglock.

The main point is this, though. My gaming group has started tracking
any event which halts play for more than 5 minutes. Any time a rule
clarification takes more than 5 minutes to resolve, we are trying to
either relearn the rule or create a faster workaround as a house rule.
We'll see how things go, but it seems like a pretty good idea so far.
Message no. 91
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:59:40 +0200
According to Stephen Allee, on Thursday 23 September 2004 13:58 the word on
the street was...

> My first change would be to the demolitions rules, but that's mostly
> because a properly placed chunk of Type XII works a whole lot faster
> (and correspondingly louder) than trying to pick a maglock.

You know, I can't figure out what your problem with the demolitions rules
is from that statement :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
+--The end is here
|-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
|-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
|
|GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
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|Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
V
Message no. 92
From: failhelm@*****.com (failhelm@*****.com)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:37:06 -0700
On Friday, September 24, 2004 Gurth wrote

>>According to Stephen Allee, on Thursday 23 September 2004
>>13:58 the word on the street was...
>>
>>> My first change would be to the demolitions rules, but
>>that's mostly
>>> because a properly placed chunk of Type XII works a whole
>>lot faster
>>> (and correspondingly louder) than trying to pick a maglock.
>
>You know, I can't figure out what your problem with the
>demolitions rules is from that statement :)


Not to sound to much like a smart ass I don't really either.

It would work well if you knew what you were doing, but it what the alarm
system that you would have to worry about. Of course it depends on the
security system versus the barrier your are trying to bypass was well. The
rules present enough information to facilitate the action.

If role-playing games don't and probably shouldn't emulate reality to much,
ever. Is that what some of you are fishing for?

- Failhelm
Message no. 93
From: marc.renouf@******.com (Renouf, Marc A)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:20:14 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: james@****.uow.edu.au [mailto:james@****.uow.edu.au]
> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 8:26 PM
>
> There're as many differences as there are similarities. And to me,
> that's a bad thing.

I see your point, but I guess I just see the differences as minor.
Damaging Manipulations work a little differently from Combat spells.
Grenades work differently from pistols. But the core mechanic (damage
resistance, staging, etc) is exactly the same.

> Beyond that - is a spell more like a pistol or a club?
> Because the rules
> for resolving those attacks are different too (beyond just which
> modifiers apply).

[SNIP - CUT - AND - PASTE]

> Top of my hit list would be "melee attacks and ranged attacks are
> resolved in the same way - past deadly, staging increases the power of
> the attack".

This is one that we've fixed with a house rule, a house rule that
we've had in place since early on in SR2. Damage wraps. Two successes past
Deadly, it starts over at Deadly + Light, two more successes makes Deadly +
Moderate, etc. If you fail to resist, you take 13 boxes worth of damage.
This same style of wrap-around works for stun damage as well. If you take a
Stun wound that has been staged to Deadly + Moderate and fail to resist, you
are unconscious and have a Moderate wound. The same goes for drain,
cybercombat, melee, and any other damage-causing activity. It's easy, it's
consistent, it works across all types of damage resistance, and it makes the
game a touch more deadly, which is fine by both me and my players.
I'm not saying that there aren't problems with the rules as written
- I'm saying that the problems that are there are relatively minor and
easily fixed using consistent extensions of existing rules.

> Again - there are a lot of small variations. What happens to a
> cybercombat wound once it's staged beyond deadly for
> instance? Does the
> power increase, or does it just need more resistances to stage back
> down? What are all those combat maneuver rules for?

They are pretty much the direct analogs of dodging and aiming. They
even work in pretty much the same way (barring the fact that you're using
different pools/skills.

> > I don't feel "buried" under the weight of the rules in
> Shadowrun.
> > On the contrary, it's very liberating for both players and
> GMs alike to know
> > that they have so many options, and that should they
> actually want or need
> > guidance on some rules aspect that there's probably already
> at least a basic
> > system in place (a system which the GM is free to adopt,
> modify, or ignore
> > in order to best suit the needs of his or her campaign).
> >
>
> The arguement "you can always change the system to your liking" is a
> weak one at best. If I have to change too much, I may as well use
> something else.

Granted and agreed. I detest and loathe D&D3E for largely that
reason - I have a hard time getting past all the shortfalls of the inherent
system and it detracts from my enjoyment of the game. It shatters all
verisimilitude and imposes stilted, archaic forms on the game. It would be
more enjoyable to run the whole thing diceless, but then I'd be playing
Amber.

> I think SR has a very strong core mechanic - that of opposed
> rolls (plus
> all the attendant rules for retries, reducing time, modifiers etc). I
> think the mechanic of open rolls is complete crap, but maybe
> that's just me.

I'm torn on the whole Open Test thing. There are situations where I
think that it's really useful (see my house rule on Autofire at
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jormung/Shadowrun/rules3.html#Autofire for
more detail). But I've noticed that it's use for Stealth can lead to
problems (although it should be pointed out that this is the first time SR
game publishers have actually taken the time to actually outline how Stealth
skills actually *work*). On the plus side, it is easy and speeds up the
game.

> I think SR could be a far better system if someone went through it and
> removed the pointless exceptions that don't fit with any real-world
> explanation.

Agreed, but I think a lot of GM's already do that on the fly. Many
of those exceptions usually apply in oddball situations, so many GM's simply
ignore them and use more standardized rules to handle the situation. I know
I do it.

Marc
Message no. 94
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:30:41 +0200
According to Renouf, Marc A, on Monday 27 September 2004 18:20 the word on
the street was...

> This is one that we've fixed with a house rule, a house rule that
> we've had in place since early on in SR2. Damage wraps.

This rule works very well -- I've been using it for years, too.

> This same style of wrap-around works for stun damage as well.

Just beware of using it with things like gases intended to knock people
out. Neurostun becomes a bit too deadly if you stick to the rule that
overflowing Stun damage always becomes physical, and anesthetics (sp?)
would be almost impossible to use, too.

> Granted and agreed. I detest and loathe D&D3E for largely that
> reason

That just reminded me of this great answer in the Q&A-type of promo for
Paranoia XP:

Player: Are you using the d20 rules system?

The Computer: No. PARANOIA is fun. D20 games are not fun. The
Computer says so.

:)

> I'm torn on the whole Open Test thing. There are situations where I
> think that it's really useful (see my house rule on Autofire at
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jormung/Shadowrun/rules3.html#Autofire
> for more detail). But I've noticed that it's use for Stealth can lead
> to problems (although it should be pointed out that this is the first
> time SR game publishers have actually taken the time to actually outline
> how Stealth skills actually *work*). On the plus side, it is easy and
> speeds up the game.

The problem, I think, is with the wide variation you can get by having
players roll open tests -- even with a very high skill level, you get
situations where (in the case of Stealth) characters end up stepping on
every branch in their way.

On the other hand, I agree that it's quick and makes things easy on the GM,
which is why I kind of like the open tests :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
+--The end is here
|-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
|-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
|
|GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
|O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
|Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
V
Message no. 95
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:37:20 -0600
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:30:41 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to Renouf, Marc A, on Monday 27 September 2004 18:20 the word on
> the street was...
>
> > This is one that we've fixed with a house rule, a house rule that
> > we've had in place since early on in SR2. Damage wraps.
>
> This rule works very well -- I've been using it for years, too.

I made a similar house rule, in that each extra success equals one
extra box of damage (in other words, I removed the staging rules of 2
successes per damage level). It sped up combat significantly (you'd
be surprised how much repeatedly dividing by two and rounding down
adds to a combat encounter), and made it much easier to teach the game
to new players.

--
-Graht
Message no. 96
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:03:52 +0100
On Sep 27, 2004, at 17:20, Renouf, Marc A wrote:

>> Top of my hit list would be "melee attacks and ranged attacks are
>> resolved in the same way - past deadly, staging increases the power of
>> the attack".
>
> This is one that we've fixed with a house rule, a house rule that
> we've had in place since early on in SR2. Damage wraps. Two
> successes past
> Deadly, it starts over at Deadly + Light, two more successes makes
> Deadly +
> Moderate, etc. If you fail to resist, you take 13 boxes worth of
> damage.
> This same style of wrap-around works for stun damage as well. If you
> take a
> Stun wound that has been staged to Deadly + Moderate and fail to
> resist, you
> are unconscious and have a Moderate wound. The same goes for drain,
> cybercombat, melee, and any other damage-causing activity. It's easy,
> it's
> consistent, it works across all types of damage resistance, and it
> makes the
> game a touch more deadly, which is fine by both me and my players.

I use another method, that in my opinion is even more consistent,
albeit far more lethal. As you probably noticed, the increase in the
number of damage boxes taken increases by one every level. IOW, Light
is Unharmed + 1, Moderate is Light + 2, Serious is Moderate + 3 and
Deadly is Serious + 4.
So I keep the progression. Two successes past Deadly yield (Deadly +
5) = 15 damage boxes. Then it's 21, 28, 36, etc.
Yes, this sequence yields the same numbers as the naval scale (so for
short I often call these "new" levels LN, MN, SN and DN). However, the
Power is *not* modified as it would be with true naval damage. I
figured it was already lethal enough like that.

> (although it should be pointed out that this is the first time SR
> game publishers have actually taken the time to actually outline how
> Stealth
> skills actually *work*).

They still haven't completely. The Awareness specialization of
Stealth, for example, comes to mind.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 97
From: james@****.uow.edu.au (James Niall Zealey)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:50:27 +1000
> Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
>

[damage resistance]
> Just beware of using it with things like gases intended to knock people
> out. Neurostun becomes a bit too deadly if you stick to the rule that
> overflowing Stun damage always becomes physical, and anesthetics (sp?)
> would be almost impossible to use, too.
>

The bad part I see is that it's going to put an awful lot more
fatalities into the game. I don't want characters dead when they could
be crippled instead. Death doesn't add to the game - impairment does.

[open tests]
> On the other hand, I agree that it's quick and makes things easy on the GM,
> which is why I kind of like the open tests :)
>

See - I don't think it is any quicker than a regular test, and I don't
really see it making my life easier. Just the fact that open tests exist
means that on occasion players will roll, remember the highest and then
tell it to me when I ask, rather than keeping the whole thing, meaning I
need to get them to roll again. Then there's the whole reversing
modifiers if it's an open test. If situations with open tests used the
standard mechanics, then the game already has measures and effects of
the degree of success built in - the divination spells, assensing and
the like already use it, and it lets me give a lot more detail for
situations where information is the main drive of a roll. Also, for
stuff like interrogation and other protracted efforts, there are the
rules for doing it fast or doing it well, and the rules for trying again
being more difficult.

Finally - there are the problems with open tests others have brought up,
where having a stealth skill beyond about 2 brings seriously diminishing
returns, and where the circumstances can make having any skill at all
rather pointless.

The only real problem that opposed tests have is when the modifiers get
too high, noone succeeds, which to me isn't much of a problem in most
normal situations, and that on occasion you may need players to hold
onto a roll for a little bit while you work out what happened. Since the
alternative with open rules is that you have no idea what happened, that
still leaves opposed tests out in front.
Message no. 98
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:53:57 +0200
According to James Niall Zealey, on Wednesday 29 September 2004 01:50 the
word on the street was...

> The bad part I see is that it's going to put an awful lot more
> fatalities into the game.

And that is bad how...? ;)

> I don't want characters dead when they could
> be crippled instead. Death doesn't add to the game - impairment does.

In my experience, it's mostly the PCs who cause Deadly+ wounds to NPCs,
rather than the other way around. More than once have they given an NPC
that they wanted to interrogate such a bad wound that he or she was dead
on the spot.

> See - I don't think it is any quicker than a regular test, and I don't
> really see it making my life easier. Just the fact that open tests exist
> means that on occasion players will roll, remember the highest and then
> tell it to me when I ask

In my group at least, that is not a problem -- they get it wrong very
nearly every time, so I almost always have to ask them for the exact rolls
anyway:

Me: "Roll Pistols."
Player: "I got 15."
Me: "And the rest?"
Player: "1, 1, 2, 5, 5, 9 and 15."
Me: "Your target number was 4, so that puts a different light on things,
you know..."

Or:

Me: "Roll Stealth. This is an open test, remember."
Player: "A 5, a 7, a 10 and some small change."

*sigh*...

> rather than keeping the whole thing, meaning I
> need to get them to roll again.

That's one thing my group have gotten their minds around: when they roll,
they leave the dice as they were until they know I know what they rolled.
There is the occasional problem when someone needs more dice and they take
ones from a roll that I haven't been told about yet, but this doesn't
happen often.

> The only real problem that opposed tests have is when the modifiers get
> too high, noone succeeds

I tend to see the reverse problem: if you have a character with Negotiation
8 haggling with someone who has Negotiation 2, the first one needs to roll
2s on eight dice while the other one needs 8s on two dice. No points for
guessing who'll come out on top. Not that this is wholly unexpected, of
course, but it does take away much of the risk in using things like forged
IDs or maglock passkeys, where if you get a rating 6 or so you'll hardly
ever have any problems with scanners, because most you'll encounter will
be rating 3 or 4 or so. I've been meaning to try out Graht's house rule of
having both sides roll against a 4 regardless of the other's rating, but I
haven't got round to it yet.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
+--The end is here
|-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
|-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
|
|GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
|O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
|Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
V
Message no. 99
From: jcotton1@*********.net (Joseph Cotton)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:14:17 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gurth
> I tend to see the reverse problem: if you have a character
> with Negotiation 8 haggling with someone who has Negotiation 2, the
first one
> needs to roll 2s on eight dice while the other one needs 8s on two
dice. No
> points for guessing who'll come out on top.

Well, actually, they'll both be rolling against the other's
Intelligence attribute, IIRC. But other than that, your point stands.

Joe Cotton
Message no. 100
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:49:51 +0200
According to Joseph Cotton, on Wednesday 29 September 2004 15:14 the word
on the street was...

> Well, actually, they'll both be rolling against the other's
> Intelligence attribute, IIRC. But other than that, your point stands.

You're right, of course (although it's Willpower, at least the way I've
always played it :) A better example is fake ID vs. scanner, or maglock
passkey vs. maglock -- each uses the other's rating as the TN, which works
well if they're both in the 2-5 or so range, but as soon as one is much
better than the other there is no contest.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
+--The end is here
|-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
|-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
|
|GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
|O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
|Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
V
Message no. 101
From: jcotton1@*********.net (Joseph Cotton)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:59:02 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gurth
> A better example is fake ID vs. scanner,
> or maglock passkey vs. maglock -- each uses the other's rating as
the
> TN, which works well if they're both in the 2-5 or so range, but as
soon as
> one is much better than the other there is no contest.

As well it shouldn't be, IMO. A really good maglock should be able to
shrug off a cheap passkey, and vice-versa. The same goes for the
scanner/credstick thing. Where it gets interesting should be where
the two are closely matched.

As far as Int vs Will goes, well, you can make an argument for
either... Int to see thru the bullshit, or will to resist it. :)
Don't have my book with me (horrors!) but I think you use Int because
it's based off of that attribute.

Joe Cotton
Message no. 102
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:16:10 -0400
At 10:59 AM 9/30/2004, Joseph Cotton wrote:
>As far as Int vs Will goes, well, you can make an argument for
>either... Int to see thru the bullshit, or will to resist it. :)
>Don't have my book with me (horrors!) but I think you use Int because
>it's based off of that attribute.

Check the Errata. It was changed from one to the other a while ago. I can't
remember which is in my book (which is still packed away), but I know mine
is wrong (it's an early printing).

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 103
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:54:03 +0200
According to Joseph Cotton, on Thursday 30 September 2004 16:59 the word on
the street was...

> As well it shouldn't be, IMO. A really good maglock should be able to
> shrug off a cheap passkey, and vice-versa. The same goes for the
> scanner/credstick thing. Where it gets interesting should be where
> the two are closely matched.

Which, unfortunately, is not all that often. In my experience scanners tend
to be rating 3 or 4, while PCs usually buy the equipment to bypass them at
rating 6+.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
+--The end is here
|-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
|-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
|
|GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
|O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
|Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
V
Message no. 104
From: jcotton1@*********.net (Joseph Cotton)
Subject: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 09:21:19 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gurth
> Which, unfortunately, is not all that often. In my experience
> scanners tend to be rating 3 or 4, while PCs usually buy the
equipment to
> bypass them at rating 6+.

<shrug> In that case, limit them on how good their stuff can be.
You're the GM, you ought to know how to be arbitrary by now. :) Tell
them that credsticks/passkeys/whatever else you're having heartburn
over is only available (at character creation) at a [pick the rating
you like], as an exception to the rules. And if they want something
better after creation, make 'em sweat like hell for it. Personally, I
don't have a problem with it, but then, I'm not running any campaigns
these days. :)

Joe Cotton

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.