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Message no. 1
From: GR DIRK KENNETH W <DIRKKENN@***.ISU.EDU>
Subject: WHY INITIATE
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 09:55:34 MST
Jani Fikouras writes:

> ... I cant see any really good reason to initiate beyond
> grade 0.

[stuff deleted]

> I agree a higher magic/initiation grade lets you do some
> nifty stuff - speed in the astral, higher force of spells,
> easier banishing, but I dont think that this stuff is worth
> that much karma.

Other list members have talked about how wonderful masking is
so I'm not going to repeat those arguements. However, I think
that the ability to cast higher spells is pretty powerful. If
my level for initiate mage (I don't have one, but its possible)
cast a force 10 manaball, that mage would only be looking at
stun dammage and not physical!

Also, look at how much initiation costs. To go from level 0
to level 1 initiate (assuming you do it the easy way by belonging
to a group and doing an ordeal/geasa/whatever) you are looking at
spending 10 karma points. (New initiate grade+6)*1.5. If you
were to instead improve a sorcery skill from 6 to 7 it would cost
14 karma points. And you don't get all the neat stuff that
initiating would give you.

Just my thoughts,


-DrugDoc
(aka Ken Dirk)
(E-mail: dirkkenn@****.isu.edu)
"Better living through chemestry"
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: WHY INITIATE
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 10:49:02 +0200
> However, I think
> that the ability to cast higher spells is pretty powerful. If
> my level for initiate mage (I don't have one, but its possible)
> cast a force 10 manaball, that mage would only be looking at
> stun dammage and not physical!

Dude, think about your TN for learning that force 10 spell: 20. Not exactly
easy to leanr is it? Masking is definitely the most useful aspect of initiation.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tijd voor een andere tekst...
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Message no. 3
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: WHY INITIATE
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 10:20:30 BST
> Dude, think about your TN for learning that force 10 spell: 20. Not exactly
> easy to leanr is it? Masking is definitely the most useful aspect of initiation.

With enough dice and karma, anything is possible. NE-Way, you can reduce the TN
with a good teacher.

I personally find the most useful aspect is shielding in both it's forms,
can't wait to try the new variant on my players and watch their
faces fall... :-). But then my games have the unfortunate habit of becoming
_somewhat_ combat intensive, when the players mess up and the CIA are
called (they've gone beyond SWAT now!)

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 4
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: WHY INITIATE
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 11:02:55 GMT
P Ward writes

> > Dude, think about your TN for learning that force 10 spell: 20. Not exactly
> > easy to leanr is it? Masking is definitely the most useful aspect of initiatio
>
> With enough dice and karma, anything is possible. NE-Way, you can reduce the TN
> with a good teacher.
>
Theoretically yes but i still don't like the idea of how long its
going to take and that trick requires that the teacher know the spell
at the relevant force rating. oops. I recon on a 'base' force of 8
i.e. 16 to learn as about the limit normally though a * the fetish +
exclusive = force 12 Hellblast is well, am i glad no ones actually
done it. (though 10D drain is a real pain)

> I personally find the most useful aspect is shielding in both it's forms,
> can't wait to try the new variant on my players and watch their
> faces fall... :-).
That is going to be fun the problem is an excuse, i.e. someone who
can have it without it being generally available, usually easy to
solve i know but due to campain i'm low on options.

> But then my games have the unfortunate habit of becoming
> _somewhat_ combat intensive, when the players mess up and the CIA are
> called (they've gone beyond SWAT now!)
>
Give em the National guard to 'play' with ought to encourage them to
either handle things more sensibly or shorten their lives, sounds
like they asked for it. (hope they learn how to duck)

> Phil (Renegade)
>

Mark
Message no. 5
From: Timothy Little <t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: WHY INITIATE
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 01:42:34 +1000
>Dude, think about your TN for learning that force 10 spell: 20. Not exactly
>easy to leanr is it? Masking is definitely the most useful aspect of
>initiation.

As an aside, the target number is actually at +2, unless you can find
someone who already knows it at force 10 (yeah, right). My character just
tried to learn a force 8 spell. Going from 16's to 18's made it 3 times
harder to learn.
8-<

At least you could get a lot of dice into it - say 8 sorcery, 5 dice from an
elemental, 5 from magical theory, and 5 from an astral quest. Even with 23
dice, it still takes about 6 months to learn a force 10 spell.

If you're doing a force 10 *Hellblast*, it's even worse! You have to design
the formula, at base target number 20, +6 for the drain modifier, -2 for
reverse engineering, -8 Magic Attribute (say), a total of 16. Base time is
60 days, though and you don't get to use Sorcery skill. The above mage
would take around 10 months to complete this one.

Also, people seem to be assuming that casting a spell of too-high rating is
a *bad* thing. If you look at it from a purely munchkin point of view,
though (thpt!), physical damage gives the same target number penalties as
stun, and most magicians can treat it in a matter of seconds! If you only
expect light or moderate drain in a damaging situation, it's even better
since it still won't turn a serious wound into deadly damage, and you won't
get the cumulative penalties for having both stun and physical boxes.

On the subject of physical drain, one of my players likes to summon a Force
14 elemental for tough tasks, since he has Charisma 7, and he can heal a
serious wound far faster than resting off a light stun. He seems to thinks
it's worth the week or so it normally takes. Ack!! I'm just waiting for
one to go uncontrolled; it will certainly become free, and almost certainly
come after the slimy wretch! All it would take would be 1 other magician
with nothing to lose, and a single banishing attempt. I've already got the
free spirit designed for the occasion... <evil GM grin>

--
Tim Little
Message no. 6
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: WHY INITIATE
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 10:02:32 BST
Mark Steedman Wrote :-
> > I personally find the most useful aspect is shielding in both it's forms,
> > can't wait to try the new variant on my players and watch their
> > faces fall... :-).

> That is going to be fun the problem is an excuse, i.e. someone who
> can have it without it being generally available, usually easy to
> solve i know but due to campain i'm low on options.

Easy, I use the gradual initiation variant that's out on the web
somewhere, and explain that so far the only people with it are those
who've experimented in the labs to get it, and those they've taught.


> Give em the National guard to 'play' with ought to encourage them to
> either handle things more sensibly or shorten their lives, sounds
> like they asked for it. (hope they learn how to duck)

Yuck, Tanks and soldiers; much too much, snipers work so much better
in urban situations.

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 7
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: WHY INITIATE
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 17:09:49 +1000
Timothy Little writes:

> Also, people seem to be assuming that casting a spell of too-high rating is
> a *bad* thing. If you look at it from a purely munchkin point of view,
> though (thpt!), physical damage gives the same target number penalties as
> stun, and most magicians can treat it in a matter of seconds! If you only
> expect light or moderate drain in a damaging situation, it's even better
> since it still won't turn a serious wound into deadly damage, and you won't
> get the cumulative penalties for having both stun and physical boxes.

You're right in general. But in the middle of combat, you'd be betetr off
taking stun damage than physical. Say you lob some spell and cop serious
physical drain. No real problem normally, as you can use a Treat to get rid
of it. But along comes Mr Bad Guy, and hits you for a another serious wound
with a BFG. Ooops, you're dead. I'd rather be taking stun drain in the
middle of combat than physical. Outside of combat OTOH, you're entirely
correct (except if the drain you take is Deadly...).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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