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Message no. 1
From: David Goth <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Why is it so bad? RE: ED/SR Connections
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 03:06:03 -0500
> >Well, personally it seems odd to me that people who (A) don't like
> >Earthdawn...also, (B) deny the obvious connections within ED to SR
> >(according to 'canon').
>
> I don't deny it; it just didn't seem that obvious to me. I don't like it,
> either.

A good portion of my post was to make the point that everyone's style of
play is different, and you can play however you want to. SR without even
being aware of the existence of the ED books is just groovy.

> Well, I didn't; looking back now, I can see them, and I still don't like
> them. Any more insults to my intelligence, or can we drop this now?

Again, most of my post was acknowledging the existence of the links, not
making judgements about them. Also, I felt that I went out of my way to
point out the generalizations I was making, rather than making personal
remarks towards you. I apologize if you took them that way. (Being defensive
only makes your arguments suspect.)

>
> >There are numerous (well, at least two) web sites
> >that document exact pages, etc.
>
> David, I don't care if they have web pages that document how the
> Bible is a
> precursor to ED or SR, quoting chapter and verse. I still don't
> think it's
> a good idea.

<Sigh>...I merely mentioned them in case you/someone wanted to look them up
themselves and make their own judgement.

Though I AM very curious about your great opposition to the idea.

So, hopefully that will make my choice of 'subject' more clear now. Why
don't you like the 'idea' of this connection?

Also hopefully, this won't degenerate into a debate about the validity of
the existence of these 'links'. You yourself admitted that looking back, you
see them now. As I mentioned in my previous message, it doesn't really
matter what my opinion is, or your opinion on if they exist or not. That
seems a dead horse to beat. (An expression used in the USA to describe an
argument, such as abortion, that has been going on for a long time without
coming any closer to resolution.)

So, Why is it so bad?

-Dave-
Message no. 2
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Why is it so bad? RE: ED/SR Connections
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:35:41 -0700
At 03:06 8/4/98 -0500, David Goth wrote:
>So, hopefully that will make my choice of 'subject' more clear now. Why
>don't you like the 'idea' of this connection?
...
>So, Why is it so bad?

The connection between Shadowrun and Earthdawn can be very easily
mishandled. Shadowrun is a cyberpunk game; Earthdawn is high fantasy.
Bringing *too much* ED into SR undermines the game concept of SR.

Part of the difference between high fantasy and cyberpunk is that
in high fantasy, you have mythic forces that are very present:
great good vs. great evil (Tolkien), human beings against great
evil with no great good to back them up(Hodgell), human beings against
things that are vastly more powerful and simply uncaring (Lovecraft).

Cyberpunk, in contrast, is a game about shades of grey. You roleplay
hardened criminals that any reasonable citizen would say should be locked
up somewhere they won't do any harm to the populace. Of course, the
government and the corporations that you fight against (often on the
behalf of another one) aren't that nice, either. Moral ambiguity is
the rule, with occasional exceptions.

Earthdawn has two big evils: the alien evil of the Horrors, and the
very human evil of the Theran empire, a bunch of slavers who want to
rule the world. Either one is a force to be battled and rebelled
against by right-thinking people. :-)

If you bring the Horrors into Shadowrun, it *makes sense* for enemies
to band together and stop them from encroaching on the world. There
*is* a possible campaign that has the player characters running around
trying to figure out how to stop Horrors and enlisting support from the
megacorporations, culminating in a titanic battle where the Horrors get
their asses handed to them on an orichalcum platter when they find out
that humans do research a lot *faster* than they did eight thousand
years ago, but it would wreck the usual Shadowrun continuity.

It doesn't help that the ED connection has been mishandled in the past.
I *like* having immortal elves in Shadowrun, but they only have small
territories for a good reason: they're players at the megacorporate
level, but if one of them individually slotted off a megacorp it would
need at least one megacorporate ally not to get gilched. They're
another force in the world, not a major one, and they shouldn't be
turning up under every rock.

Sargent and Gascoigne wrote some pretty bad novels involving the
ED/SR connection, Nosferatu and Black Madonna, and Worlds Without End
actually used immortal elves as main characters and implied a
Horror-centric theme coming into the SR world in the near
future. Fortunately, the Dragon Heart trilogy put nails in the coffin
of *that* particular theme. (While still allowing for the possibility
that some Horrors slipped through and can be around in sufficient supply
to be in roles as occasional opponents... but you're going to have to
wade through a lot of corrupted corporate employees to get at them,
'cos any Horrors that made it through aren't going to be stupid...)

Earthdawn also has a considerably more advanced system of magical theory.
The combination of a higher mana level and thousands of years of experience
in wielding magic means that magic is a very powerful force in the game.
In Shadowrun, magic and technology have to in an uneasy balance. If
Earthdawn magic gets imported to Shadowrun wholesale, technology will
fall behind. (There's another mythic battle there, but it's another one
that doesn't leave a Shadowrun world when the dust settles.) Of course,
with nanotech coming soon, Shadowrun could have a few years where the
tech gets too far ahead and some of the Earthdawn secrets might turn
up again...

Another problem is that it means you need a bunch more sourcebooks.
For a while I tried to buy my ED sourcebooks exclusively from the
Used section of the gaming store, but I got too curious and started
getting new ones. :-)

I, personally, *like* the SR/ED connection. It needs to be handled in
a subtle fashion, as a recurring theme in a campaign rather than *the*
theme of a campaign; I'm trying to do so in mine.

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Don't keep all your bats in one belfry." - me %%
Message no. 3
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Why is it so bad? RE: ED/SR Connections
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:20:49 -0400
On 4 Aug 98, at 10:35, Max Rible wrote:

> At 03:06 8/4/98 -0500, David Goth wrote:
> >So, hopefully that will make my choice of 'subject' more clear now. Why
> >don't you like the 'idea' of this connection?
> ...
> >So, Why is it so bad?
>
> The connection between Shadowrun and Earthdawn can be very easily
> mishandled. Shadowrun is a cyberpunk game; Earthdawn is high fantasy.
> Bringing *too much* ED into SR undermines the game concept of SR.

Here, here.

> Part of the difference between high fantasy and cyberpunk is that
> in high fantasy, you have mythic forces that are very present:
> great good vs. great evil (Tolkien), human beings against great
> evil with no great good to back them up(Hodgell), human beings against
> things that are vastly more powerful and simply uncaring (Lovecraft).
>
> Cyberpunk, in contrast, is a game about shades of grey. You roleplay
> hardened criminals that any reasonable citizen would say should be locked
> up somewhere they won't do any harm to the populace. Of course, the
> government and the corporations that you fight against (often on the
> behalf of another one) aren't that nice, either. Moral ambiguity is the
> rule, with occasional exceptions.

And the immortal threads and horrors and shit just muck it up. I have
had bugs in my game. They are just as nasty and scary as aliens,
awakened critters, or whatever. Theyt don't have to be pre-cursors to
horrors, or whatever other drek. (And if anyone is curious, they were
alien in origin in my game. I was a big fan of the V series :) ).

> Earthdawn has two big evils: the alien evil of the Horrors, and the
> very human evil of the Theran empire, a bunch of slavers who want to
> rule the world. Either one is a force to be battled and rebelled
> against by right-thinking people. :-)

Typical high-fantasy, and sounds cool, if kept in perspective.

> If you bring the Horrors into Shadowrun, it *makes sense* for enemies to
> band together and stop them from encroaching on the world. There *is* a
> possible campaign that has the player characters running around trying to
> figure out how to stop Horrors and enlisting support from the
> megacorporations, culminating in a titanic battle where the Horrors get
> their asses handed to them on an orichalcum platter when they find out
> that humans do research a lot *faster* than they did eight thousand years
> ago, but it would wreck the usual Shadowrun continuity.

It would be Earthdawn with guns and tech. Peeyew. Where's the
cyberpunk?

> It doesn't help that the ED connection has been mishandled in the past. I
> *like* having immortal elves in Shadowrun, but they only have small
> territories for a good reason: they're players at the megacorporate
> level, but if one of them individually slotted off a megacorp it would
> need at least one megacorporate ally not to get gilched. They're another
> force in the world, not a major one, and they shouldn't be turning up
> under every rock.

I have never had IE's in my games. I bought Harlequin, but never got
to run it. I would have probably modified it a bit .

> Sargent and Gascoigne wrote some pretty bad novels involving the
> ED/SR connection, Nosferatu and Black Madonna, and Worlds Without End
> actually used immortal elves as main characters and implied a
> Horror-centric theme coming into the SR world in the near future.
> Fortunately, the Dragon Heart trilogy put nails in the coffin of *that*
> particular theme. (While still allowing for the possibility that some
> Horrors slipped through and can be around in sufficient supply to be in
> roles as occasional opponents... but you're going to have to wade through
> a lot of corrupted corporate employees to get at them, 'cos any Horrors
> that made it through aren't going to be stupid...)

And all I can say is yeah! Thanks, Jak Koke and FASA.

> I, personally, *like* the SR/ED connection. It needs to be handled in a
> subtle fashion, as a recurring theme in a campaign rather than *the* theme
> of a campaign; I'm trying to do so in mine.

Well, I don't like it, and I am not shy about it. I would never fault
anyone that wants to be creative and tie the two together. Hell, I've
linked different games before. But I do not want FASA to do it as an
official line, because as Max has shone here, the mix does dilute
from the strengths of the two systems, and I am glad that the company
is moving away from that.

Shadowrun is focusing on its strengths now, and I think the game is
better for it.

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 4
From: David Goth <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Why is it so bad? RE: ED/SR Connections
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:49:35 -0500
> It would be Earthdawn with guns and tech. Peeyew. Where's the
> cyberpunk?
>

Luckily, no-one was advocating blending the two games. I'm pretty sure the
concept was, "Well, here's the SR world, and now we're coming out with this
fantasy game that could conceivably be the 'historical' world mentioned in
the legends of the SR world. That's pretty cool, our players will get a kick
out of it."

> I have never had IE's in my games. I bought Harlequin, but never got
> to run it. I would have probably modified it a bit .

IE's were in SR LLLOOOOONNNGGG before ED, so you can hardly fault ED for
that. Unless it is merely that people hate the IE's so much that anything
suggesting that they exist, or illustrate any connection for them, is
something to be 'hated'.

>
> > Sargent and Gascoigne wrote some pretty bad novels involving the
> > ED/SR connection, Nosferatu and Black Madonna, and Worlds Without End
> > actually used immortal elves as main characters and implied a
> > Horror-centric theme coming into the SR world in the near future.
> > Fortunately, the Dragon Heart trilogy put nails in the coffin of *that*
> > particular theme. (While still allowing for the possibility that some
> > Horrors slipped through and can be around in sufficient supply to be in
> > roles as occasional opponents... but you're going to have to
> wade through
> > a lot of corrupted corporate employees to get at them, 'cos any Horrors
> > that made it through aren't going to be stupid...)
>
> And all I can say is yeah! Thanks, Jak Koke and FASA.

So, just out of curiosity, were the Dragon Heart trilogy novels actually
'good'? I haven't read them, but they look kinda thin for the US$6.99 price.
(And I'm not generally a fan of shared world fiction.)

> Well, I don't like it, and I am not shy about it. I would never fault
> anyone that wants to be creative and tie the two together. Hell, I've
> linked different games before. But I do not want FASA to do it as an
> official line, because as Max has shone here, the mix does dilute
> from the strengths of the two systems, and I am glad that the company
> is moving away from that.
>
> Shadowrun is focusing on its strengths now, and I think the game is
> better for it.


WHOAH! I never advocated blending the games! Sheesh, who would want to put
the 13th Circle spells in SR? Who would really want to put a Panther Assault
cannon (or worse!) into an ED game? Is that REALLY your objection?
Personally, I just look at ED as one possible history for the world of ED,
and possibly a source for the legends within SR.

-Dave-

Further Reading

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Thwap!