Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: One Ronin <ronin@*******.COM>
Subject: Why Seattle?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:33:10 PDT
I'm sure someone has posed this question before, but I haven't seen it
on the list yet. Does anyone have any idea why the default setting for
SR is in Seattle? If anyone has any ideas (fact based of just
speculative), I'd like to hear them. Thanks.




Mai mentsu konna mai kikyo.

-Ash'man raen mi'morchaint


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 2
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 16:20:14 -0400
On 30 Sep 98, at 12:33, One Ronin wrote:

> I'm sure someone has posed this question before, but I haven't seen it on
> the list yet. Does anyone have any idea why the default setting for SR is
> in Seattle? If anyone has any ideas (fact based of just speculative), I'd
> like to hear them.

I think there are probably many reasons for this. First of all,
Seattle had never been done before. Also, at the time of Shadowrun's
development, the Seattle music scene was huge, with Nirvana, Pearl
Jam, etc. exploding into pop culture.

All IMHO, but I swear I heard that somewhere too.

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - |"Letter writing is the only
- drekhead@***.net - | device for combining
HTML to: drekhead@********.net | solitude and good company."
ICQ - UIN 2883757 | -Lord Byron
Message no. 3
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 17:43:48 -0400
At 04:20 PM 9/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On 30 Sep 98, at 12:33, One Ronin wrote:
>
>> I'm sure someone has posed this question before, but I haven't seen it on
>> the list yet. Does anyone have any idea why the default setting for SR is
>> in Seattle? If anyone has any ideas (fact based of just speculative), I'd
>> like to hear them.
>
>I think there are probably many reasons for this. First of all,
>Seattle had never been done before. Also, at the time of Shadowrun's
>development, the Seattle music scene was huge, with Nirvana, Pearl
>Jam, etc. exploding into pop culture.

Um...no.

Shadowrun appeared first in 1989, and was obviously in development prior to
that. This was well before "grunge" hit the pop scene, which hit a couple
of years later (around 1991).

It was my understanding that Seattle was chosen simply because it was a
city that hadn't yet been covered by anyone else, such as LA and New York
(which have both been overdone by now), or their "native" Chicago. It
simply also fit in with what they wanted to do with the game world.

No, the music that was popular at the time of SR's development, say 87-89,
was crap sacharine pop and headbanging, poofy long haired metal, such as
Winger, Guns and Roses, Ratt, Nelson, etc.

All of which I personally loathed. But that was back when "alternative
music" actually *meant* something...

Erik J, the former college radio DJ


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 4
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:00:31 -0700
At 17:43 9/30/98 -0400, Erik Jameson wrote:
>It was my understanding that Seattle was chosen simply because it was a
>city that hadn't yet been covered by anyone else, such as LA and New York
>(which have both been overdone by now), or their "native" Chicago. It
>simply also fit in with what they wanted to do with the game world.

Seattle is a good choice because it's a major Pacific Rim metroplex and
port city, which paves the way for a lot of cultural interaction with
Japanese megacorps on American soil. Champions had San Francisco,
Cyberpunk 2020 had Night City (which is right next door to San
Francisco and can be mistaken for a dark-future version of it),
and now you're running out of Pacific Rim spots in the US...

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 5
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 18:24:06 -0400
At 03:00 PM 9/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Seattle is a good choice because it's a major Pacific Rim metroplex and
>port city, which paves the way for a lot of cultural interaction with
>Japanese megacorps on American soil. Champions had San Francisco,
>Cyberpunk 2020 had Night City (which is right next door to San
>Francisco and can be mistaken for a dark-future version of it),
>and now you're running out of Pacific Rim spots in the US...

...And Portland is home to those notorious munchkin elven physical adepts,
so its best to steer clear of there as well!

Besides, as I understand it, Seattle is a properly gloomy place today (in
late 20th century -- rains all the time), can you imagine the dystopian
flavor that 50 years of polution and political hardship can have done to
magnify that effect?

Think about it, they probably see about as much sunshine as Florida sees=
snow.
*noysh sighs with longing serenely contemplating all that gloom*

>--
>Max Rible

(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-
Message no. 6
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:11:06 -0400
> I'm sure someone has posed this question before, but I haven't seen it
> on the list yet. Does anyone have any idea why the default setting for
> SR is in Seattle? If anyone has any ideas (fact based of just
> speculative), I'd like to hear them. Thanks.

This came up at one of the FASA seminars at GenCon one year. The answer the
gave was that most people have a pre-conceived notion of most of the major
American cities. If the game was set in Los Angeles or New York, you'd have
some notion of what the city was Supposed To Be Like. Seattle is a large
city, but most people don't know a lot about it, so FASA had more freedom to
make the city how they wanted it to be.

--Craig
Message no. 7
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 16:38:10 -0700
>At 03:00 PM 9/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Besides, as I understand it, Seattle is a properly gloomy place today (in
>late 20th century -- rains all the time), can you imagine the dystopian
>flavor that 50 years of polution and political hardship can have done to
>magnify that effect?

Well, I was just up there and it was nice and sunny.

Admittedly, the weather is a bit unusual for them to have so much sunshine,
but so far everytime I've been there in the past year it has been nice and
sunny most of the days. Actually, my friends joke about having me come up
as it cleared up from a bit of raining just before I flew in.

However, as my friend Eve put it, there is implicit approval in traipsing
around downtown in a dark trenchcoat.

What they do have, in spades, is a bit of overcrowding, especially in the
past 5-6 years. All those durned Californians moving up there, and now the
traffic is pretty bad. You can get stuck on I-5 for two hours, moreso if
you have to catch a ferry to Bremerton. There's still plenty of vegetation
and trees, but they are chopping it down and putting up new roads, malls,
and housing. The vacancy rate is extremely low and it is really difficult
to get a place to live (2 bedroom) for under $800 near to downtown, let
alone U.W.

Seattle is also a bit of a haven for runaways. Kids from all over run away
from home to come up to beg on Seattle's streets.

>(>)noysh the spoonë bard


--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 8
From: Matt Compton <NEWSHADOW@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 20:08:47 EDT
In a message dated 9/30/98 3:29:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
shaung@**********.NET writes:

> Besides, as I understand it, Seattle is a properly gloomy place today (in
> late 20th century -- rains all the time), can you imagine the dystopian
> flavor that 50 years of polution and political hardship can have done to
> magnify that effect?
>

Actually, I live in Seattle, and the rain thing is really over stated. But I
must agree with you that it is gloomy a lot of the time, mostly due to the
cloud cover. I however prefer the rainy weather over these bright sun shiny
days that we've for the past few months.

NewShadow
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/6852/index.html
Message no. 9
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 22:11:29 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:20 PM 9/30/98 -0400, Tim wrote:
>I think there are probably many reasons for this. First of all,
>Seattle had never been done before. Also, at the time of Shadowrun's
>development, the Seattle music scene was huge, with Nirvana, Pearl
>Jam, etc. exploding into pop culture.

Excuse me? :)

Are you saying the Seattle Grunge Rock scene was big back when
Shadowrun was released in '89? (actually, it'd have to be even earlier
than that, since they had to develop the game before they released
it.)

I could have sworn that Big Hair Metal Bands were the big thing up
until at least '90, and that Grunge didn't come until later. Most
likely, bands like Aerosmith, Guns 'n Roses, and Poison were the huge
rock scene during SR's development.

After all, if you go back and look at the Rocker Archtype, it seems to
be strongly based on Big Hair Metal. Larger than life social deviants
who could get away with almost anything through the shere force of
their fame and starpower. When viewed in that context, and with some
of the looser definitions of the term "shadowrun", the Rocker Archtype
almost makes sense.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.3

iQCVAwUBNhLkx6PbvUVI86rNAQGpZAP9ELUZi9Sv9bxqLp0UYEw18i2f4UIFZQ0N
SUJriGNec3d54Y0RuJXV6o7Npe6+ghXvSJjPqlgjh+7Bb7GB85kynQqaZ4R0lE/u
g+OOaP6Z5ZjavOFUne45rSv3JfoExaPr3QqNEAuhU1RAfiFIWgtWtU9q0h2F29Ss
h0quIjoS3g0=
=JX+Y
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 10
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 22:17:21 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:11 PM 9/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> Does anyone have any idea why the default setting for
>> SR is in Seattle?

>This came up at one of the FASA seminars at GenCon one year. The
answer the
>gave was that most people have a pre-conceived notion of most of the
major
>American cities. If the game was set in Los Angeles or New York,
you'd have
>some notion of what the city was Supposed To Be Like. Seattle is a
large
>city, but most people don't know a lot about it, so FASA had more
freedom to
>make the city how they wanted it to be.

Odd what a difference a decade can make, isn't it? I'd say what with
Grunge Rock, Microsoft, Fraizer, and everything else that came about
in the '90s, a lot more people have a pre-coonceived notion of what
Seattle is Supposed to Be Like.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.3

iQCVAwUBNhLmJaPbvUVI86rNAQGOuwQAo9l3MP/s+voO+Os3JnWHmpdx88S65lca
YogxxJwqWDxLAHsugKozpox80Ulsk0sOZUNKbVILMDyH3q6Jg+o2uJI6GrkIn7JG
PJqxgC74fWyEsRi9BIWydXnrkPFoUb5JIdW7PpZnz3czuOSH/msaH9QDBp5ivxdD
FH2Lm1yNC+8=
ôcS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:13:07 +0200
According to Matt Compton, at 20:08 on 30 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

Hey, Matt :)

> Actually, I live in Seattle, and the rain thing is really over stated. But I
> must agree with you that it is gloomy a lot of the time, mostly due to the
> cloud cover. I however prefer the rainy weather over these bright sun shiny
> days that we've for the past few months.

Yeah, I must say the weather wasn't as I'd expected when I was in Seattle
about a month ago (for less than 24 hours, okay); in fact it was a lot
hotter and sunnier than I'd have liked. OTOH it was perfect for taking
photos from the top of the Space Needle, but that's about the only use for
that kind of weather :)

I think what we need is good, solid weather info and base the 2050s/60s
weather on that. I know there have been attempts at this in the past, like
a few years ago, when Steve Eley compiled a random weather chart based on
RL weather data and comments from a Seattle resident.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Nobody's going to murder anyone here even if it means I have to
kill someone!" --Kane, detective/rigger
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:13:08 +0200
According to Tim Kerby, at 16:20 on 30 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> I think there are probably many reasons for this. First of all,
> Seattle had never been done before. Also, at the time of Shadowrun's
> development, the Seattle music scene was huge, with Nirvana, Pearl
> Jam, etc. exploding into pop culture.

Had you heard of Nirvana or Pearl Jam in 1988, when SR was written?
""Bleach"" (double quotes on purpose -- look at the name on the album)
is
dated 1989, and "Ten" is 1991, I believe. Sure, Seattle had the beginnings
of what was later to be the grunge "scene" but that would take two or
three more years to come to the attention of people outside Seattle. Since
FASA is based in Chicago, I don't think grunge would have been much of an
influence on placing SR in Seattle.

More likely, I feel, is that nothing much had happened with Seattle, yet
it's a big enough city (especially if grouped together with the cities
around it, like Tacoma, Renton, and so on) to make a good game background.
Also the fact that it was relatively easy to isolate from the rest of the
U(CA)S and turn into a kind of a "free city" would have helped in the
decision to make it the main city for SR.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Nobody's going to murder anyone here even if it means I have to
kill someone!" --Kane, detective/rigger
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 07:35:59 -0600
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Gurth wrote:
/
/ According to Matt Compton:
/
/ > Actually, I live in Seattle, and the rain thing is really over stated. But I
/ > must agree with you that it is gloomy a lot of the time, mostly due to the
/ > cloud cover. I however prefer the rainy weather over these bright sun shiny
/ > days that we've for the past few months.
/
/ I think what we need is good, solid weather info and base the 2050s/60s
/ weather on that. I know there have been attempts at this in the past, like
/ a few years ago, when Steve Eley compiled a random weather chart based on
/ RL weather data and comments from a Seattle resident.

David the Weather Freak is on the case. However, it's going to take me a
little while (I'm *very* busy right now with life and stuff).

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 14
From: AlSeyMer <AdSM@******.BE>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 19:45:36 +0200
One Ronin wrote:
>
> I'm sure someone has posed this question before, but I haven't seen it
> on the list yet. Does anyone have any idea why the default setting for
> SR is in Seattle? If anyone has any ideas (fact based of just
> speculative), I'd like to hear them. Thanks.

IIRC, from a Tom Dowd interview, it was because one member of the staff had
lived there, and had first hand knowledge about a city never done before.

AlSeyMer
Message no. 15
From: Matt Compton <NEWSHADOW@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 19:02:32 EDT
In a message dated 10/1/98 4:12:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, gurth@******.NL
writes:

> Hey, Matt :)

Hey, Gurth


>
> Yeah, I must say the weather wasn't as I'd expected when I was in Seattle
> about a month ago (for less than 24 hours, okay); in fact it was a lot
> hotter and sunnier than I'd have liked. OTOH it was perfect for taking
> photos from the top of the Space Needle, but that's about the only use for
> that kind of weather :)

Yeah, El Nino really gave us a hot summer here in the Pacific northwest. Even
the fall and winter were unseasonably warm, and in January it only snowed
something like a quarter inch, which is really for us. They're predicating a
colder winter for us this year, which definitely puts a smile on my face. :-)

NewShadow
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/6852/index.html
Message no. 16
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:56:39 +1000
At 16:38 30/09/98 -0700, Adam Getchell wrote:
>>At 03:00 PM 9/30/98 -0700, One Ronin wrote:
>>Besides, as I understand it, Seattle is a properly gloomy place today (in
>>late 20th century -- rains all the time), can you imagine the dystopian
>>flavor that 50 years of polution and political hardship can have done to
>>magnify that effect?
>
>Well, I was just up there and it was nice and sunny.

Yeah. I visited Seattle and Vancouver for a couple of weeks on my way to
Gencon and now, whenever anyone asks what the climate is like in those two
cities, I say it's hot and sunny. ;-)


Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 17
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:18:08 +1000
At 19:45 1/10/98 +0200, AlSeyMer wrote:
>
>IIRC, from a Tom Dowd interview, it was because one member of the staff had
>lived there, and had first hand knowledge about a city never done before.
>

That surprises me. I would be amazed if they deliberately placed the
Renraku Arcology over Pioneer Square and the current Underground (loved
that tour), and placed the Aztechnology Pyramid up on the Capitol Hill
ridge. It seems to me that the Shadowrun Seattle was designed from maps,
not from experience.

Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 18
From: Geoff Skellams <geoff.skellams@*********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Why Seattle?
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:23:05 +1000
On Shadowrun Discussion, Chris Maxfield[SMTP:cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU]
wrote:
> At 19:45 1/10/98 +0200, AlSeyMer wrote:
> >
> >IIRC, from a Tom Dowd interview, it was because one member of the
staff had
> >lived there, and had first hand knowledge about a city never done
before.
> >
>
> That surprises me. I would be amazed if they deliberately placed the
> Renraku Arcology over Pioneer Square and the current Underground
(loved
> that tour), and placed the Aztechnology Pyramid up on the Capitol Hill
> ridge. It seems to me that the Shadowrun Seattle was designed from
maps,
> not from experience.

I'd always wondered about that as well. The underground tour is
brilliant and I've always imagined that the Ork underground forms part
of the original Seattle underground.

Where is the Ork underground anyway?

cheers
Geoff

--
Geoff Skellams R&D - TOWER Software
Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Homepage: http://www.towersoft.com.au/staff/geoff/
ICQ Number: 2815165

"That rates about a 9.5 on my weird-shit-o-meter"
- Will Smith in "Men in Black"

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Why Seattle?, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!