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From:	Shannon@*****.co.za (Shannon Buys)
Subject:	Why the heck do you guys want to roleplay?!
Date:	Fri, 7 Mar 2003 11:39:32 +0200

Message no. 1 Why do we spend hours and hours of our lives sitting around a table with a
few sheets of paper and dice talking about something that isn't real?

We get to shoot stuff.

Right, then go play Unreal Tournament 2 or Return to Castle Wolfenstein. Or
if you don't want to use a computer, play Warhamster 40k. Get a regiment of
imperial guardsmen, roll lots of dice. Kill stuff. No histories required.
No inventory, no planning, no fuss.

----
I've created a bit of a problem for myself. In order to get one of my games
flowing nicely, I was forced to move two players that weren't getting the
game to a new game. The only way I could move them was by promising to run
another game. I've also got another player who I've been trying to keep out
of my game for the last while, who now sees this as an opportunity to play.

Unfortunately I've created a game with all the worst players I could muster.
The blatant munchkins, twinks and whatever you call someone who never takes
anything in a game seriously.

Now far be it from me to deny someone the chance to play shadowrun.
Besides, I always believe that someone can be converted into a roleplayer IF
they put in the time and effort. What the heck, this is a brilliant
challenge. Still, I have the following to work with:

13 year old. Not THAT bad a player, but has to be center of attention and
does stupid sh!t in game to get it. Get's killed by other players a lot.

14 year old. Wants a vindicator. Gets upset if he doesn't get a
vindicator. Will fire any weapon possible on full auto regardless of recoil
comp or not. Get's killed a lot.

18 year old. (Although on a good par mentally and emotionally with the
other 2) Never takes ANYTHING seriously. Kills everything. Last time I
played with this player was when I was still into being a "Nice" Gm. Killed
most of my NPC's. Violently.

I intend on having a pre-game discussion and character creation on Sat.
Hopefully this discussion can be the first step in a series on getting them
to roleplay and allowing me to also enjoy myself. Point is, I put in a
large number of hours a week preparing for a game. What is the point of
doing it if I dread running the game, because my carefully planned plots go
over their heads and my detailed NPC's fall to whatever death dealing
ordnance they can get their hands on.

These guys have lost more characters in the last month in my previous game
than have died in a whole YEAR before. When phoning the one guy to arrange
the pre-game session he joyously informed me that his character is already
worked and he already started working out his next character for when this
one dies.

WTF!!!

On sat I'm hoping to try and talk to them and get inside their heads, find
out WHY they like roleplaying. If I can offer them an alternative that they
like better, such as playing Warhammer 40k, I'll be dead happy. They're
happy etc.

If I can actually get them to roleplay however, I'd be even happier.

Stuff I want to ask:
1) WHY do you guys want to play?
2) WHAT do you want to get out of it?
3) What appeals to you about roleplaying and why Shadowrun

Then maybe go into discussions of books stories etc.

I don't mind giving them action, but constant mindless combat with periods
of narative through which the sleep is just not going to cut it.

Suggestions?

From:	korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject:	Why the heck do you guys want to roleplay?!
Date:	Fri, 7 Mar 2003 18:53:18 -0800 (PST)

Message no. 2 > Stuff I want to ask:
> 1) WHY do you guys want to play?
> 2) WHAT do you want to get out of it?
> 3) What appeals to you about roleplaying and why Shadowrun

I submit that you may get blank stares or joking answers to all 3
questions from these players.

> Then maybe go into discussions of books stories etc.

Which they sound prone to ignore.

> I don't mind giving them action, but constant mindless combat with
> periods of narative through which the sleep is just not going to
> cut it.
>
> Suggestions?

Shadowrun: Duels? :)

Seriously, though. This could work in your favor. They spend hours
making characters, and all you have to do is cook up batches of
expendable, cookie cutter "bad guy" drones. Come up with different
scenarios each week. Let these twinks function as your test dummies
for NPC tactics. You can bring the valuable new ideas, along with
your near-photographic recall of the SR combat system, to your real
game.

In other words, run a Warhammer 40K style of SR game. As these kids
mature (it happens, really, it does), their tastes might grow up too.
And you will be the GM they remember as the "best ever". They'll
rehash old battles where you came up with amusing new ways to kill
their characters. And maybe one day one of them will surprise you
and try to negotiate with their opponents. Now, maybe it'll be a
ruse to get the guy into the open so Vindicator-boy can shoot him,
but it IS roleplaying. It's a start.

Typically, the ultra-violent young players who think RPGs are
pencil-and-paper first person shooters can be molded into
roleplayers. In my experience, this takes about two years or so of
hard work as a GM. But, they are young...impressionable...clay in
your hands. As annoying as it may be, you can probably make real
roleplayers out of these kids. One of my regular gamers has spent
the last two years losing characters and getting brow-beaten by the
other players for being an idiot. Every session, he says or does
something stupid in character. He attacks someone he should not, or
starts having little munchkin-daydreams about ways to be a combat
god. And every session, I punish him terribly for each misstep,
while rewarding any sign of good roleplaying to the utmost. He is
coming around...ever so slowly. He is 18.

The best punishment in the world for such players is not the death of
their character. Let the character live...with some limitation
earned by their dumb decisions. In Earthdawn, I have had the
Passions curse the character (for slaying a helpless NPC). The
curse? A permanent penalty to all uses of a specific attribute and
its related abilities. I let the player choose, usually (Strength,
Dexterity, or Toughness). That makes it even more painful.
Something similar could be worked up in Shadowrun. Some big free
spirit with delusions of deification wanders around punishing
"wrong-doers" by cursing them. Make it either a +3 TN penalty or -2
Dice penalty to all tasks related to one attribute (including skills
linked to it). Let the player choose the form of the penalty, and
what it applies to. This neuters some of their complaints about it
down the road. The last time I did this to our young munchkin, he
ended up regretting his actions immensely. Killed one unarmed
sentient and suddenly: he is going last in every combat turn, he
seldom hits his targets, and he is cuaght flat footed by every attack
thrown at him. He started trying really hard to lift that curse. He
went out of his way to leave his weapon out of things...tried talking
to NPCs to get what he wanted. His motivation for this was selfish,
but he was roleplaying. The character died without getting the curse
lifted. Heroic self-sacrifice as it happened. His new character? A
combat monster...with a nervous twitch about killing anything that is
not actively attacking him. He really does not want to start going
last in combat again. :)

======Korishinzo
--Gamemaster

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From:	gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject:	Why the heck do you guys want to roleplay?!
Date:	Sat, 8 Mar 2003 11:01:34 +0100

Message no. 3 According to Shannon Buys, on Friday 07 March 2003 10:39 the word on the
street was...

> On sat I'm hoping to try and talk to them and get inside their heads,
> find out WHY they like roleplaying. If I can offer them an alternative
> that they like better, such as playing Warhammer 40k, I'll be dead
> happy. They're happy etc.

Why not try a Paranoia campaign with them? It should allow them to
mindlessly blast any commie mutant traitors they happen to come across --
but in order to do that, they will need to roleplay sufficiently to make
Friend Computer believe that the people who got shot actually _were_
commie mutant traitors... It might just have something like the following
results:

* The player wanting attention all the time learns that this can be a _bad_
thing.
* The player who wants a Vindicator can have the closest equivalent, and
get to shoot lots of commie mutant traitors with it. Until he gets issued
a new and improved version by the clones from R&D, anyway...
* The one who doesn't take anything serious and kills everything will learn
that not taking Paranoia seriously results in lots of terinated clones,
and that killing _everything_ will probably get him into trouble even
more, in ways that he will at first mistake for good things.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Monster zonder waarde
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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From:	loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject:	Why the heck do you guys want to roleplay?!
Date:	Sat, 08 Mar 2003 20:47:50 +0000

Message no. 4 At 09:39 AM 7/3/2003, Shannon wrote:
>These guys have lost more characters in the last month in my previous game
>than have died in a whole YEAR before. When phoning the one guy to arrange
>the pre-game session he joyously informed me that his character is already
>worked and he already started working out his next character for when this
>one dies.
>
>WTF!!!
>
>On sat I'm hoping to try and talk to them and get inside their heads, find
>out WHY they like roleplaying. If I can offer them an alternative that they
>like better, such as playing Warhammer 40k, I'll be dead happy. They're
>happy etc.
>
>If I can actually get them to roleplay however, I'd be even happier.
>
>Stuff I want to ask:
>1) WHY do you guys want to play?
>2) WHAT do you want to get out of it?
>3) What appeals to you about roleplaying and why Shadowrun
>
>Then maybe go into discussions of books stories etc.
>
>I don't mind giving them action, but constant mindless combat with periods
>of narative through which the sleep is just not going to cut it.
>
>Suggestions?

Try changing the rules, the rules of character creation for one; say for
example that all of the characters come from the same family as you've only
got three players, give them all active SINs and point out what that can mean.
Then point out to them that their three characters are the entire of the
family (ie if their character dies they're out of the game.
It might work :)

Limit their equipment more heavily than normal, a lot more heavily than
normal, set it in the UK for example where guns are really really hard to
get hold of, make the IWS Predator (made under licence in Nottingham
according to the London Sourcebook) the most powerful weapon that these
people are ever likely to have seen, make weapons which fire BF or FA
beyond the realms of illegal, Granted it will likely only shift your 14yr
old from wanting a Vindicator to wanting a Ceska Black Scorpion but...

Use spirits and elementals, get them thinking about using their strength of
will rather than the number of bullets in their guns.

Don't give them Karma for 'running. AT ALL.
Instead allow them to improve their characters by building the character,
set them homework tasks in effect, get them writing short stories, drawing
scenes...etc read through them mark them and allot something akin to Karma
for them. If they write or draw something which is exclusively combat mark
them down and give them a chance to make it better, you might have them
thinking about their characters rather than their character's skills.

--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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From:	Yamael@**.com (Soban boris)
Subject:	Why the heck do you guys want to roleplay?!
Date:	Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:51:50 -0800 (PST)

Message no. 5 You could always make them start the same story over and over untill they do it right?
You know, like in a bad dream or something like that... Kill the wrong character, mess the
plots then re-start...

Or you could just obliged them to play characters that doesn't suit their comportments :
like a young and frail human girl with little knowledge of weapons and bad caracteristics
for the vindicator boy, an old foreign man in his late 60s unabled to speak correctly the
language for the one who wants to be the center of interest, a pacifist unable to kill an
insect whose only skills are stealth and social related for the wanna-kill-everybody one.
And to make it harder, lets make weapons very hard to obtain (do a campaign in France or
Autralia) and let them earn minimum money... I did it once for some players like yours,
they are now pretty much less violent because they know that at any time I could kill
their characters and obliged them to have ones they can't play as they want to...

Boris

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